Lattes, Sushi and Organic Milk

[Cats Against Frist]

I've recently moved to a small town, outside a medium-sized, midwestern city, that is very progressive. The town I'm in now, is mostly Democratic, but it's still very "small town." I just enrolled my son in the local preschool, and they asked me to buy a milk ticket, on the first day of school. I said, "well, my son only drinks organic milk." The person totally scowled at me, and said, "well, you'll just have to bring it."

I'm not a nazi about organic food, or anything. Usually, we buy all organic, except for a few convenience foods that are easier for me, from time to time -- pre-cut, cooked chicken breast strips, specialty foods (gravlax, lefsa, etc.), or whole grain products that I can't find organic etc. -- and I go to great lengths to find coupons, and stock up when expensive organic things are on sale. We eat out, at normal places, eat at parties, and I don't insist on bringing organic food to every event, I don't push it on people, and I don't look down at people who don't buy organic food. But, the sad fact is that preschoolers who drink organic juice and milk have like six to nine times fewer chemicals and pesticide residue in their urine, than kids who drink regular milk. That's not even to mention the hormones and the antibiotics. So, for most dairy products and juice, I make sure that he always drinks organic, or, at the very least, "all natural," in a pinch.

So, his teachers, in his class, are really nice about it, and they showed me where I could put it, in the milk case, on top, for his class. So, today, when I brought it, some nazi guarding the milk case gave me a dirty look, and totally snapped at me, when I came to put his milk in the cooler. I was trying to make sure that he understood that this was supposed to go to the preschool class, and he just huffed, and said, "your kid will get his special milk."

I also have done a lot of reading of message board posts on organic food, and one would not believe the flame wars that arise on parenting message boards on organic food. It's like every time someone brings up organics, all the parents who don't feed their kid organic food have to chime in and accuse the organic eaters of insisting that they're bad parents, or are abusing their children, because they don't eat organic food. Then, there's always the "well-my-science-says-organic-food-is-no-better-for-you," person, who is also indignant, out the wazoo. My mother even gets huffy when I tell her that I'd rather make a milkshake, at home, for my son, where I can use organic milk and ice cream, than take him to the DQ for a milkshake. Regular people who buy organic foods, for themselves, get accused of being "snotty," or "frou frou," Whole Foods is derided, often, and there's always some excuse to bash people who buy organic.

I know we have flame wars, on here, about vegetarianism and veganism, and all kinds of things about PC food -- and right wingers are ALWAYS citing sushi and lattes as a sign that the American empire is crumbling.

My question is, I guess - what's the deal? Why are people so defensive about people who don't choose to eat the Kraft Macaroni and Coca-Cola diet? You saw the people who filmed the documentaries about how they lost weight, while eating McDonalds, to counter Morgan Spurlock's "SuperSize Me." What was the point of that? Unless they were paid by McDonald's (which is a very good possibility), I submit that some defensive, indignant chump got a little wrinkly because someone attacked McDonald's. I remember reading, in an article that someone wrote something like "and the vegan food that Spurlock and his girlfriend were eating looked, GROSS," and they were making fun of it.

It's obvious that espresso tastes better than watered-down piss coffee, and vegetables are better for you than high-fructose meat candy, and that organic food doesn't fill your kid with carcinogens, hormones and antibiotics. Why do people feel the need to attack these things? Every person who's ever eaten organic food, that I've known, has never treated non-organic food people snottily. If they express displeasure at, say, non-organic milk, it's about the milk -- NOT THE PERSON. But the person takes it personally, and thinks you're accusing them of being a child abuser, or that they intentionally poison their kids. I personally think they ARE poisoning their kids -- but not necessarily intentionally, or only insofar as we all do things for convenience, and cost, that harm us. But it's more than that. They get defensive because YOU eat organic food -- not because you think they should.

Have any other people had experiences like this -- with schools or organic haters, grandparents, etc.? Why is food so political? Thoughts?

[Ilsa]

1. There's alot of judgmentalism about parenting, including

a jump to conclusions that those who prefer a healthier diet are judging those who go a different route.

I have recently gone vegetarian (one month now) and also do organic milk for the family. But I don't belittle anyone who doesn't or try to convince them to change their habits. That's for them to decide on what they should do and what they can afford. I suspect they'd change their minds if they had more education on the subject, but it isn't my place to force them into enlightenment. And I'm not saying you were like that either.

I think you should go about doing what you are doing and carefully consider what you might say if they give you any more dirty looks since you are in their community now. It might be an opportunity to bridge the gap and make new acquaintances.

Maybe they are upset because your child is "different" and will want to be treated different, versus just like the masses. (???)

I think you're doing a great job, BTW.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. I'm with you. Our food supply/habits are tainted. Most people are stupid

and/or ignorant.

My personal crusade is High Fructose Corn Syrup. I am convinced it is a MAJOR factor in the US obesity epidemic.

Anyway, the corporate agribiz and food chains just push this stuff on us (a la Supersize Me) and have a hand in repressing good info about the dangers of their products coming though the media.

[Cats Against Frist]

7. I'll tell you what

I've been doing an all-organic phase 2 South Beach diet. The brilliance of the South Beach diet is that the person tricks you into eating how you're supposed to eat. Except for the first two weeks, which is carb restrictive -- not calorie restrictive -- the recommendations for eating are really great -- lots of good fats, whole grains, fruits and vegetables, legumes, lean meat, etc. -- there's even a vegetarian version, which simply uses tofu, nuts and more beans to get the protein.

At any rate, not only did I not have to purchase the book -- I borrowed it -- but it set up a framework for what I already knew, and only half-assed followed, before. I've cut ALL sugar, any white breads (which I didn't even eat before, except pizza crust), any processed food with hidden crap in it -- and have NO HIGH-FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, and my extra body fat is literally MELTING away. I only exercise, on the treadmill, about 30 min., 4-times a week, I eat about 1,500 calories a day.

The only drawback, is that now, Kraft has associated itself with SBD, and they've put out a line of foods that have all kinds of sugar and other bad crap, in it -- so, Dr. Agaston is a total sellout, but the first thing that anyone should do, to lose weight, is cut out high-fructose corn syrup.

The only thing I don't agree with the diet on is that they want you to eat weirdo, low-fat margarine. I prefer organic sweet cream butter -- VERY sparingly, though -- and haven't had a problem losing weight. I'm still experimenting with my diet, because, since I started the diet, I no longer have heartburn, or any kind of gastrointestinal weirdness -- and I had tons, before.

Anyway -- I totally agree -- processed foods and high-fructose corn syrup are killing us.

[EnfantTerrible]

21. I have a great article

that ran in the NYTimes magazine about the corn surplus in this country and how it has affected public health negatively. Corn syrup plays a major role.

IM me or email me and I'll hook you up with it. It's really facinating.

[LizMoonstar]

23. get rid of corn syrup, assure my dad's job!

(He's the quality director for a sugar-growing group.)

sorry, irrelevant I know.

[EnfantTerrible]

24. Not entirely irrelevant

If we are talking about public health. I'm not sure your dad would want to hear my opinions on sugar, though.

Welcome to DU LizMoonstar (philosophizer)

[LizMoonstar]

25. especially since he worked in cookies for 20 years before this!

and thanks for the welcome! and wow, someone who may have actually read my blog? yay!

[EnfantTerrible]

27. I clicked on the link

in your profile.

[LizMoonstar]

31. any good?

I only tend to get feedback from people I know in real life.

[EnfantTerrible]

32. I'll check it out in depth later

I'm a bit scattered at the moment with work.

[LizMoonstar]

33. thank you! i'll be putting up something politically-related this weekend

[katsy]

3. I bring organic food & pack organic lunch

as opposed to buying the pre-school starchy foods also.

Teachers gnash their teeth at me because I've added a few chores for them and because the school gets a KICKBACK from the companies that supply them with the crap they feed them. Too bad for them.

When my daughter was 2 (she's a twin), they told me they wanted to have her tested because her legs weren't as strong as other children her age.

I told them no thanks, we have a family physician and she said my daughter's just fine. It turns out, the school got kickbacks from these testing companies. She's 4 now and up to speed running, jumping, ballet, tumblebus.

I won't let my kids fall into their system no way no how. Not food, health, no testing for anything besides school subjects... NOTHING.

My kids... my values. Everyone else can screw as far as I'm concerned. And yep... I'm raising little libruls that respect all life.

It's nice to meet another terrorist mom like me!

:hi:

[IrateCitizen]

4. Enforced conformity

I would say that the issues you're encountering with organic foods is a combination of enforced conformity and people's general resistance to uncomfortable facts.

To many parents who deride organic foods, deep down they might actually KNOW that organic foods are better for them, and thereby they KNOW that they could be doing more to insure their children's health, but they don't do it for whatever reason. Therefore, the lash out against anyone who suggest organic food is important for kids because it taps into their own insecurities.

Secondly, for most people food is nothing more than a fuel that comes prepackaged -- and in many instances precooked -- at the local store or restaurant. The average person on the street does not investigate one iota what they are putting into their bodies, nor do they care to, because they might not like what they find. For me, I have a hard time with this, because I grew up on all home-grown vegetables, home-grown beef, and home-grown chicken -- as well as home-grown eggs. Knowing where my food came from as a kid was natural for me -- hell, the cows we ate even had NAMES -- so I think it's something I have a problem with NOT knowing as an adult.

Thirdly, there is the pressure on people to conform and not stand out. It's there in EVERY aspect of your life -- what you wear, where you go on vacation, what you buy, and yes, even what you eat.

[IrateCitizen]

5. On another note, pesticides can cause obesity...

I read recently that a diet consisting of non-organic foods has significant calories from the pesticides and artificial fertilizers that are used in their raising and processing. By switching to an all-organic diet, you can cut out those calories, and therefore discourage obesity.

[Cats Against Frist]

14. You're right

It's not just with the food, but it's with all kinds of other things. I grew up in a very small town in Southern Illinois, and was one of the only people to leave the town, and one of only a handful of my entire extended family to ever live in a town with more than a population of 8,000 (though I'm in a community of 900(!) now). When I say that I won't go to Wal-Mart, or buy a Dell computer (my boyfriend's company has a huge discount), people get really indignant and huffy. It's not even thinking Wal-Mart is "low-class," which some people think -- the only name-brand things that I've bought in the last five years are my Tom Bihn bag and a USED Pottery Barn quilt. Even when I explain that it's because of labor practices -- and for me, far more about national chains v. local stores -- they, of course, pull the "you think you're better than me," stuff.

The joke is, when I moved to Seattle, I didn't eat organic food, I certainly didn't drink lattes, and I'd never had sushi. When my uncle Charlie -- a Republican, down-home type -- came to Seattle to visit me, and my cousin, who also lived there, we took him to one of the coffee shops, and taught him how to order a latte. He had a blast, thought it was kooky to ask for a double-short, skim latte with sugar-free raspberry syrup -- instead of "coffee," and went, before he died, last spring, to his local "Starbucks," and got his raspberry lattes there. It was nice.

I'm totally tangenting -- but it was a good experience that kind of "briged the gap," I guess. Now, I have to work on another uncle, who, every time he ASKS about my education, has to bring up how college professors don't know how to change lightbulbs, and that if I want to be really useful, I should learn to drive a backhoe.

Sometimes it's funny, like that -- but I think that all of this stuff we're talking about is part of the rural/urban divide thing that fans the flames of politics. I'm interested in the question.

[LizMoonstar]

16. The WalMart thing just kills me.

I live in an area where there really aren't any other choices, and every time I even think about going there (and I have to go frequently, as, again, not many choices), I feel the weight of disapproval from DU and want to kill myself for being a terrible horrible person.

But the shrink says that's part of my disorder, go figure. omg rich spoiled brat who goes to a shrink and has to take medication rather than just getting over it like a real person would - but hey, if you want to come over and stay up all night keeping my hallucination monsters away from me so I can sleep, go right ahead.

[mattclearing]

6. A lot of people respond like addicts, getting defensive and acting odd.

They aren't prepared to abandon their habits, and feel their lifestyle is challenged by something foreign and strange.

They just want it to go away, and will mock it or attempt to refute it to be able to turn off the cognitive dissonance.

[OnionPatch]

8. Yes !!!!

Yes, I get flack all the time!

I started researching food when I was pregnant, wanting to make sure I had a healthy baby. What I found repulsed me. I started eating mostly organic foods. When my daughter was born, I made a lot of my own baby food because I couldn't find organic. We don't eat beef unless it's certified grass-fed or organic because of the Mad-Cow disease cover-up. Everything was cool until she started pre-school. I got dirty looks from a couple of the "care-givers" at the school and the same kind of snide remarks about my child's "special" foods. Mind you, I have NEVER, EVER remarked about anyone else's diet. In fact, I was very hush-hush about our diet and only told the teachers who needed to know. I even allow her to have a slice of pizza or something at a school party as long as there was no pepperoni on it. When we go to cook-outs, we have to tell people, "we try not to eat much beef" because when you tell someone you won't eat it because of Mad-Cow, they just don't understand that the government isn't testing the cattle or doing enough to prevent the spread of this disease. If you tell them all the reasons why you eat this way, they get a blank stare in their eyes. If I tell them I grow most of our own vegetables, I really get the look. Imagine a woman so crazily obsessed with what her family eats to bother gardening!! All I can say is F*** them. I don't have any advice to give you except to try to keep it discreet if you don't want the flack. Or just buck up and refuse to let them bother you. It sucks, doesn't it? But hey, you have OnionPatch on your side.

[Bill McBlueState]

9. I can't explain the attitude toward your choices

People need to remember, though, that in Bush's America, buying specialty foods is not a luxury everyone can afford. First, there's the cost. If organic milk is $4 a gallon and regular milk is $3 a gallon, a single parent making poverty-level wages is going to buy the regular milk, if she can afford milk at all. Second, there's the availability. Stores specializing in whole foods are rare, and are open fewer hours. Someone who has less reliable transportation and works long hours is more likely to stop by the 24-hour supermarket on the way home from work than make a special trip to the whole foods store.

I'm sure nobody likes filling their kids up with chemical additives, but mass-produced, low-nutrition food is cheaper and more readily available than the more healthful alternatives.

Possibly, the cafeteria attendant who treated you poorly sees you as having disposable income she wishes she had, so she could buy her kids better food. It's an unwarranted assumption on her part, but maybe that's what's driving her.

[BigMcLargehuge]

11. I can explain further...

Most pre-schools, if they are accredited (and many that aren't) receive state and federal money for essential foods such as Milk. The milk supplied to the kids at the OP's pre-school may very well have been paid for as part of a voucher program or yearly nutrition grant (we used to get both at the early learning center where I worked). Thus, stating that "well, my child only drinks organic milk" suggests to the center that they are offering lesser care to the kids by virtue of the whole milk they supply at snack time. Early learning centers also have strict nutritional guidlines to follow (they vary by state) and must track every cup of milk, saltine, slice of cheese, or raisin that is dispensed to the kids. If the expected number of dispenses varies from the actual number of dispenses (based on attendence/cups of milk x days of school) for example then a center can lose its acceditation, nutritional funding, and membership in organizations such as the NAEYC.

We had nutritional inspections at the state level every six months, with a funding adjustment immediately after each one.

From a purely practical level, making that exception for the OPs child is also a headache in a busy early learning center. Worse, it sets the precedent that other parents can make similar requests, "well, my son only likes chocolate milk... well, my son only drinks Yoohoo... well, my daugher only likes orange juice." If it's not a medical reason for an aversion to milk, such as lactose intollerance, the teachers could very easily find themselves custom pouring from 20 different milk containers to satisfy the requests of the kids' parents.

If I were the administrator of the school I would have explained that while we fully support your dietary choices at home, the school policy is that, without an explained medical reason for an alternative milk, your child would have to drink what we supplied and I would have cited the reasons above.

[Cats Against Frist]

29. Thing is

There are very clear reasons why people drink organic milk that have to DO with health. Just because the "medical establishment" and the government haven't declared a state of emergency, it doesn't mean that the health benefits of buying organic milk, if one can afford it, isn't more nutritious, healthy, environmentally friendly, or just plain tastes better. Here are only some of the health benefits of drinking organic milk:

1. They don't use hormones.
2. They don't use antibiotics -- (and even though people "say" the antibiotics are all cleaned out of the milk, that doesn't mean I'm buying that story).
3. Omega 3s -- cows that graze on natural pastures produce way more Omega-3s. It's even better if you could drink non-homogenized milk, but the ratio of Omega-3s to Omega-6s in organic milk is optimum for health.
4. A Danish study showed that organic milk has more overall vitamins.
5. Beta Carotene, and other disease fighters -- there are more cancer-fighting substances and acids in organic milk, than regular milk.

The environmental footprint of organic milk -- particularly if you stick with Organic Valley, IMHO, the best label of all the organics, is minimized, and you get to support family farms and cooperatives. Even though I'm not a huge animal rights advocate, necessarily, organic milk is supposed (though some skirt this) to get cows some free-range time, which means their lives don't completely play out in a shit box, before we milk and/or eat them.

I think it's a travesty that the school doesn't provide organic milk, personally, and it's one more fucked up thing about our society. Why can't I be allowed to do my part, to make my son healthier?

See my questions on elitism in healthcare, below -- which I'm about to type -- for more questions.

[BigMcLargehuge]

30. I'm not suggesting organic milk is any less good than regular milk

to be honest... but if you read the entirety of my post above I lay out the practical and legal reasons it would and could become and issue.

And "it's better for my child" is not the same as "my child is lactose intolerant" or "my child is allergic to dairy" in an early learning center.

[OnionPatch]

13. I think you're right

that there is some resentment there. I used to be more, let's say, financially challenged, before I was married and I was resentful that I couldn't afford organic foods. I feel really bad that a lot of people can't afford it. The thing is, though, that if more people bought organic and got involved to demand better, safer foods, the prices would go down.

[Swamp Rat]

10. sushi and latte = raw fish and milk n/t

[SmokingJacket]

12. Going organic takes a lot of extra work and money.

I swing back and forth, because when I get the twice-as-expensive organic milk and fruit, I begin to panic about money. Sometimes I don't have the energy to drive across town to buy the organic yogurt, but instead go the the nearby store and get the regular stuff.

And I do feel defensive when my purely-organic friends peek into my fridge. I would never say anything, but I do understand the feeling of being judged as a less-than-ideal parent -- as lazy, as being a convenience-loving slob.

People take your insistence on your child getting superior food to the other kids as an implicit negative judgment -- which it is. You have to face that fact and accept it and do what you think is best for your kid. But you can't blame people for feeling judged.

No one wants to be put into the position of being "not as good" -- and some very touchy people will go to ridiculous lengths to prove that they are just as good rather than change.

Psychological fact: people defend their egos.

[Cats Against Frist]

17. I understand -- a reply to all about money & cost

I understand that it costs more -- and it was a very slow process for me. When I lived in Seattle, I was dirt poor, and rarely ate organic food, or fed organic food to my son -- while my best friend bought everything organic, and fed to her son, who is the same age. The funny thing is, that my friend kind of is a snotty person (her own outward defensiveness), and wants people to think she's perfect -- but she never gave me a hard time about it. She explained that some foods taste better (orange juice is the biggest one, IMHO), and some foods just have less chemicals. She's a scientist, and I just accepted that she was probably right, but I couldn't afford it.

Now, I can afford it -- but, coming from that very poor mindset, it is definitely an internal struggle. At first I started with vegetables and grains and milk, and then, transitioned into meat, cheese, yogurt. I literally had panic attacks, the first few times I did an all-organic shopping trip. I was shopping at ALDI, which is even cheaper than the regular grocery store, before I started buying organic food. I definitely understand.

I don't really resent people who have more than me, though, and never have. I think part of the reason is because, when I was really poor, I was also, basically a minimalist, and a communist, and didn't want anything. Every once in a while I'd see something that I'd want, and have a little discomfort, but I pretty much squelched it. I have more problems, now, buying the things that I think are good -- American made, not from Wal-Mart, Organic food, quality products that are a little more expensive, because they're either socially responsible, or don't come from a chain, or don't fund Republicans. I feel that what I'm doing is right, but the bottom line is much bigger than I ever thought I'd be spending. I try to offset it, by buying as little as possible, buying secondhand, and by just doing without -- but it is an interesting dilemma.

[LizMoonstar]

15. So what does one do when encountering one of the rare whole foods etc.

types who is contemptuous?

'you're not poisoning your kids intentionally, you're just too dumb to know better.'

i have met several disdainful veggies who look down on me because i eat meat (i need extra protein in my diet, easily available, and i can't eat soy). not that this is the norm, but what would you recommend I do when confronted by these types of people?


would this apply to me being a bad cat mom because i feed my Loki Cat Purina food instead of making him some at home? Why are there people who look down on those of us who go to McDonald's as lesser creatures, or who have to commute in cars to get to our jobsites?

Clearly, not everyone is like this, but I have known some who are, so they do exist.


God, I guess I'm asking another one of those unanswerable questions my therapist warned me about: how do we get people to not hold each other in contempt for differences?

[Touchdown]

28. Amen.

There has been a long history of condescension among those who are vegetarian, and an absolute Koresh-like zealotry from those who are vegans towards those of us who continue to enjoy dead animals. Just look at some of the responses on this thread here. Language meant to deride the unwashed masses as delusional, addicted, self-destructive, and ignorant. Damned by faint praise.

Now, I would rather have organic than processed, and I think that the corporate hog/cow/chicken farms are a travesty, and would love to buy free range meat, and non pesticided fruits and vegetables on a regular basis, unfortunately, this won't put those corporations out of business, and I waste more gas making a special trip to Whole Foods or Wild Oats. I would prefer we do this legislatively, rather than splintering off the people. I believe that the more people go to organically grown and free range foods, that the prices will fall. That is not going to happen if I'm made to feel like a butchering murderer with constipation every time I talk about eating a steak. BTW: I'm very regular Vegans, so talk about something you have a clue about.

Perhaps what the OP is experiencing is pre-emptive backlash, because most of us Wonder bread/Kraft/Sanderson Farms/Nestle people are expecting the next thing out of their mouths is the obligatory browbeating lecture on how we're killing ourselves by our choices, and we should live like them, to a ripe old age of 144, living on the streets because Social Security has been privatized, property taxes are astronomical and the Dollar is worthless, which occurs 90% of the time they open their mouths. Yeah, I do call them food snobs, because most of them are.

[Cats Against Frist]

36. Well, I'm definitely not a vegetarian, so you won't get that speech from

me -- and really, there's a different ethos in the organic v. non-, verses the veggie v. non- disputes. I don't think people who eat organic food are emotionally tied to organics, the way many vegans/vegetarians are. I think that the strong feelings come from animal rights, and whatnot. I've never met a vegetarian, vegan, raw foodie or organic eater who was in it "for the health," launch a diatribe against anyone who didn't eat that way. Those who are animal rights activists and devotees, on the other hand, will occasionally get worked up to tears. Never say you eat fois gras.

I think this question of elitism and healthcare, that we often discuss, is also showing up in this food argument. Not in terms of the emotional or psychological conflict between the people who are able to make more or less healthy or expensive choices, but in the idea that people shouldn't GET to eat organic food, because everyone cannot afford it. You mentioned "privitization," above, and I think that's exceptionally interesting.

I'm something of a (get ready) minarcho-federalist geo-libertarian communalist, myself, so I am in favor of de-centralized government, but not necessarily limited in how much scope the de-centralized government can have. I do believe that law is often coersive, but I think that if the scope of law is minimized, then it's less coersive. I also believe that the land belongs to everyone. It's a long and convoluted philosophy, but, at any rate, it ends up here: yes, I do think that people who have the means are free to make the healthy choices that their means allow, without regard to "all of humanity." Meaning, that while I support subsidized healthcare (on the state level), I do believe that those who have the means should be able to go above and beyond to protect themselves. Does that mean that one person deserves more than another? Of course not -- but you must realize that the reason that the McDonald's and factory farms, and third-world exploiting chocolate corporations are open is PRECISELY BECAUSE you shop at them. And yes, if you didn't, if everyone didn't, they would go out of business.

On the other hand, I agree with you. Everyone is NOT going to do this, and they are NOT going to be shut down. Therefore, it is these people's right to continue to purchase and support these companies, and, it should be my right to continue to support the companies that I wish to support.

I think the government mandating that food be organic, or launching a large-scale organic subsidization plan would be a costly DISASTER -- and really piss off the SIXTY PERCENT of people who WRONGLY believe that organic food is no more healthy than non-organic food. On a small scale, however -- municipal, county, state, etc. -- I would fully support organic subsidization. There are a hell of a lot worse things that one can pay for.

So, are you getting lectures in the grocery store? How are you made to feel like a "constipated butcher," just BECAUSE you've gone to purchase organic food? Or is this, your, um...internal monologue, playing devil's advocate with you???

:hi:

[Touchdown]

43. My privatization comment was about SS, not food.

...but yes, I would favor some sort of national push to limit steroid, pesticide, and other questionable additives to agriculture on a national scale. Unlike you, I do believe that government can do good when it puts the people's welfare first. Perhaps, shifting some of the farm subsidies from corn and wheat growing, as well as hog and chicken factories to free range ranches, and organic farms. I'm not advocating anything draconian, but increasing regulations is not nationalizing food production.

I was told I supported and am guilty of butchering animals as if they were fully developed Disney characters, right here on this site. I just had Foghorn Leghorn for lunch. Tonight, I think I'll eat Nemo. I was also asked by someone with a "Meet your Meat" avatar how I can put up with all that constipation, and directed me to a link to a propaganda site that compares people like me to Ivan the Terrible. Otherwise, at Wild Oats, I generally don't get any comments, but I do get stares from peoplefor my various choices. Such as when I ask the butcher for an 8oz top sirloin (hey free range meat is VERY juicy and good). Since it is a grocery store, I asked where the TV Guides were at. I got a condesending smirk from the smelly guy with dreadlocks behind me, and a friendly lecture by my checkout guy that I should be out riding a bike instead of watching TV. While true, I said, I still asked him who our Governor was...he couldn't say. TV could have told him that. Besides, that's what TVG is for. So you can CHOOSE what's important to watch, and flip it off when nothing's on...then ride your bike. I should have directed the hempophile behind me to the organic soap aisle, but I'm nice.:D

I'm raambling, so I'll just stop.

[Cats Against Frist]

44. There's no "unlike" me

I believe government can do good. I simply don't believe in the federal government. I do, however, as you said -- except on a state or more localized scale -- think that organic subsidies would be great. Of course, the best subsidy is if people buy the damn food... :)

[petite marmotte]

18. Just Follow Your Good Instincts

I've had it happen. People cast something that feels like a disapproving look or a "Oh, you're one of those people," kind of inference if you mention that you don't eat a particular thing or you buy organic products (which I do when I can find them). In my opinion, other people become somehow defensive. Like you know something they don't know, but they suspect maybe they should know it. Some kind of pseudo-guilt maybe? Bottom line for me: Unless I'm prescribed antibiotics for some good reason, I don't want to take them. Heck, I don't even want the cows to take them if they aren't sick! I know it's prophylactic or some such, but I'd just rather not ingest them if I don't need to. I definitely don't want to ingest pesticides - for any reason. Just do what you are doing and keep doing it. It may be more expensive but I think it's a safer alternative when you have the choice. Your kid has a smart mom.

[Dora]

19. I had a nephew tell me organic food is gross.

He was sixteen at the time, and visiting us on his summer break. He comes from a very small town in Iowa.

I asked why he thought organic food was gross, and it turns out that his stepmother used soy milk, which he equated with organic.

I told him that organic only means that it has none of our added chemicals. I also explained that it was a lifestyle choice, and that he was perfectly welcome to run down to the convenience store to buy some M&Ms and cheeze doodles if he felt compelled to. Oh, and would he like to have a glass of organic chocolate milk with these organic Newman's Own cookies?

He ate like a wolf at the table every night of his visit. I'd never seen anyone pack away as much salad as he did.

[pitohui]

20. it's political because it's a class issue

most of us can't afford organic food

it's a bit wearying that rich people also get to live longer & eat better too

it's unfair, grok

sorry your kid has to be on the front lines of this tho

[Cats Against Frist]

37. just remember -- every time someone buys organic food

that begins to make it cheaper for everyone else!!! :thumbsup:

[Child_Of_Isis]

39. I have yet to see that effect.

It goes up with everything else.

[Qanisqineq]

40. I agree that most of us can't afford it

I buy it once in a while. Yesterday I went to Whole Foods and spent about $45. I had two paper bags of groceries. I later went to a regular grocery store and spent between $45-50. I had 5 paper bags of groceries and the bags were much bigger.

I'm unemployed and married to an enlisted soldier. I can't afford it. I just try to stay away from as much processed food as possible (except for treats of course) and just eat fresh meat and produce.

[Child_Of_Isis]

22. This is a most interesting thread.

I have a friend who eats organic, and trust me....everyone knows about it! We eat mostly organic and I don't think anyone knows. To us, it is a non issue. To her it is a major issue. I don't have a clue as to why.

[Cats Against Frist]

41. So, if/when, you sent/send your child to school, would/do you have

them just drink the school's milk? I think that's about the only time that I've made our eating organic food, a point -- of course, we only started eating organic food this last spring. To me, the dairy products and the meats are a pretty big deal, but the rest of the stuff isn't. And I'm not as strict with myself, as I am with my son, though he doesn't eat many foods like Brie or lefsa, or something, that you cannot readily find organic.

[Child_Of_Isis]

45. My kid ate what everyone else ate.

Like I said, it was a non issue for us.

[crispini]

26. It makes sense that people are weird about food.

Think about how intimate a relationship we have with food. We touch it, we take it into our mouths, we chew it, we swallow it. It's the direct source of our life's energy. Food has emotional ties to our family. We eat when we celebrate, we often eat when we are sad, we eat when we are angry. It's something that every single person does -- EATS. Every day. And our food choices are cultural signfiers too -- pasta (Italian), nan (Indian), rice (China) ... on and on and on.

Honestly, it makes enormous sense to me that people get weird, get opinionated, get freaky over food. It's almost as intimate a thing as sex. Maybe moreso! Everyone thinks of themselves as an "expert." It's so basic to our psyches and biology. You could write a book on it. I bet someone has!

[Cats Against Frist]

34. I agree

I just think it's funny that two people can get in a jovial and good-natured fight about which pizza place in town, is the best, or who has the best happy hour appetizers, but the divide between people who have restrictive diets -- organic v. non-organic, vegan/vegetarian v. non, etc. -- can provoke so much resentment and vitriol.

And it is just as important as sex -- and illness & death, and sleep -- it's something that's completely biologically beyond our control -- one must eat, to live.

[Cleita]

35. I never had kids but I remember an incident told to

me by a friend who was a teacher in a pre-school. She said that one of the kids was vegetarian and his lunch consisted of stuff like sprouts, beans and other veggies mixed together, fruit juices and bran muffins.

Well one of the teachers decided the child wasn't eating properly and started buying him hamburgers and other meat based foods to eat. My friend was uncomfortable with the situation and wondered if she should report the hamburger lady to the administration.

Well, by that time she didn't have to because the kid told his mother and there was a big brouhaha that ensued and the parents withdrew the child from the school. It turns out the school adminstrators sided with the teacher and told the parents they weren't feeding their kid properly.

I guess some people think that they are right and no one else can be right in a different way.

[mondo joe]

38. Nothing will set people off like child rearing. It's always seen as

judgmental.

The perception is "Oh, so you think I'm a bad parent because my kid drinks from a bottle/ breast fed till she was 2/ watches TV/ doesn't watch TV/ drinks organic milk/ drinks Coca Cola/ drinks juice/ is allowed to play with a toy gun/ isn't allowed to play with anything Disney/ fill in the blank."

In my estimation, about 80% of parents can't hear what any other parent is doing without thinking it's a judgment on their parenting.

And in truth, it sort of is. But why people care so much is beyond me.

[CitrusLib]

42. Amen. I dipped my toes in the water on some parenting boards once

and jumped back out of that pool! Good heavens, you'd think the kids were posting instead of the parents. These were supposed to be adults? Freaked me out. As long as your family is happy, healthy and well-adjusted, who really gives a rat's ass what type of milk you drink? Puh-leez.