The truth about Uncle Fidel.

[CubsFan1982]

From Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch:

Cuba - Prisoners of conscience: 71 longing for freedom:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250022005

Human rights crackdown on dissidents in Cuba
http://web.amnesty.org/wire/July2003/Cuba

Cuba: "Essential measures"? Human rights crackdown in the name of security
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/ENG-AMR250172003

Prisoner of Conscience: José Orlando González Bridón
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250062001

From Human Rights Watch:

Cuba: Human Rights Concerns for the 61st Session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/cuba10306.htm

Cuba: Three Dissidents Freed, Many More Still Held
Despite Recent Releases, Incarceration of Political Prisoners Continues
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/29/cuba9740.htm

Cuba: Release Political Dissidents
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/27/cuba8500.htm

Cuba: Trial Violates Dissidents’ Right to Free Expression
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/22/cuba8480.htm

[Faygo Kid]

1. I'm no fan. I'm 54, and he's all I remember.

Kind of like Louis XIV. Or Queen Victoria. He has been there forever. Mortality is inevitable, however.

[Maple]

2. He's waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Batista

which is the one the US backed. And better than the govt of Saudi Arabia...which is well thought of by Bush.

[CubsFan1982]

3. He's still a ruthless dictator.

Why are you excusing his violations?

[Maple]

4. LOL no he's not

and I was around for the revolution m'friend.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

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[FlemingsGhost]

7. Pretty simple world you are living in ...

Tell me, what's a rainbow look like in black and white?

[Maple]

8. Good grief

those are soapsuds coming out of your ears!! :7

In any case..it ain't your country, and it ain't your concern.

I'd suggest worrying about your own 'ruthless dictator' and leave Cuba alone.

[CubsFan1982]

9. Last time I checked, we still had an opposition party.

Our very presence here proves that. We do not have a dictator.

[Maple]

10. Actually you do have a dictator

but either way...you're in the US, not Cuba. So Fidel is no concern of yours.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[Pastiche423]

12. We have a democracy in THIS country?

May I borrow your rose colored glasses?

[CubsFan1982]

14. Can you tell me the name of the labor camp you were sent to for being a

Liberal?

I didn't think so.

We still have a democracy.

[Maple]

17. I think you've been so long away

from a democracy, you've forgotten what one is like.

And that it involves an informed electorate...ahem.

And incidentally...I ain't American.

[CubsFan1982]

40. It's a good thing you're not.

I'd hate to be associated with an American who defends Communist dictatorships.

[Maple]

43. No one does

and you're getting a poor education if you think you're making any kind of argument in that regard.

Americans aren't called on to defend or attack any one else's govt.

Americans aren't God, and don't get to tell other countries how to live.

[rockymountaindem]

50. And Canadians don't get to tell Americans what to do,

as much as you always try to, Maple.

[Maple]

54. No, we're just returning the favor

You've invaded us 5 times, so be thankful that's all we do.

[wli]

70. we've got more prisoners per capita than Castro by far

Also c.f. COINTELPRO for going to prison for being too liberal.

[manic expression]

76. And since when was anyone

sent to a labor camp for being ANY political persuasion in Cuba?

*crickets*

[Maple]

13. You may think so

but other people in the world, and many Dems, don't see it that way.

So you may want to pay closer attention to your own sins, and stop preaching to other people

Cuba and Venezuela are not yours to worry about...who died and made you God? Who made you world cop in fact??

That's how you get into quagmires like Vietnam and Iraq.

Clean up your own backyard.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

20. What college

do you attend?

[0007]

35. High school is more like it!

[CubsFan1982]

41. I'm transferring to Western Illinois University next year.

For right now, I'm at Rock Valley College in northern Illinois.

[Maple]

44. Okay, thanks. It's off my list

Logic isn't on the menu there I gather.

Preaching and arrogance,however, appear to be.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[hiley]

22. Bush is a Dictator and we are not living in a democracy

since the Supreme Court gave him the office...

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hiley]

34. Oh please, you give me a fucking break!

Read your own links and think for a minute.

[CubsFan1982]

39. Again, we have dissent and free elections in this country.

Are those elections always transparent? No. But there is a mechanism to resolve that. Human rights abuses, yes, we have some. Everyone does.

But as liberals, we're supposed to celebrate the freedom of the individual, not celebrate the theft of that freedom. Here, we do that consistently.

We still have that freedom. That's what makes us still a democracy and Cuba a dictatorship.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

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[Fescue4u]

82. Cuba has good engineers to!

Have you seen what they can do to a chevy?

They turned one into a boat! It was truly amazing.

Then they used their boat, to flee the free paradise of Cuba, to come and live under the dictatorship for Bush.

Those silly guys. giving up all the Freedom!

[CubsFan1982]

85. LOL

Thank you for the first real good laugh I've had all night! :D

[manic expression]

89. Well,

blissful ignorance is an ugly thing.

[CubsFan1982]

92. So is repression. n/t

[manic expression]

93. yes,

and Cuba is quite beautiful in that respect.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

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[Lars39]

90. lol

"...even junior members" :rofl:

[Soup Bean]

66. I agree. Bush is not a dictator.

However, I do think it's healthy and encouraging that so many people are willing to come out and say "we don't WANT a dictator". That way, it will be much harder to turn the US into a fascist state.

The day people are dragged from their homes for simply questioning the government, the US populace will rise up. Left OR Right.

[Faygo Kid]

21. You call the Dems an opposition party? You are way too calm.

I like a lot of what you say, but I fear you are going over to the Dark Side. The war is wrong, the economy is teetering, the attacks on dissent are coordinated. Am I wrong here, and Rush Limbaugh is right? I will be fiercely with you. But, I am not sure where you are coming from anymore.

[CubsFan1982]

25. There is still dissent, is there not.

Al Franken and Randi Rhodes are still on the radio. Cindy Sheehan is still in Crawford. Kucinich, Rangel, Waters, etc., are still speaking out. We have opposition in this country. Cuba does not.

[Faygo Kid]

33. Not good enough. Dissent must be backed by power to be effective.

You and I can complain until we are blue in the face, and who listens? The damage being done by the Bush Administration right now is far greater than the moth-eaten Castro administration. Again, I hold no truck with Castro; I was 7 in 1958, and turn 54 in a couple of weeks. So, I know who he is. I am not sure what I said that ticked you off. Maybe you ought to fill me in.

[CubsFan1982]

37. I don't have a problem with you.

I DO have a problem with casting our lot with dictators, regardless of their politics. Some people here will defend Castro to the death, gloss over his infractions against his people simply because he is a leftist and a voice against Bush. This is intellectually dishonest. I do not support ANY dictator. The fact that some here do is absolutely disgusting.

[Faygo Kid]

56. I don't support Castro. My priority, after 47 years of Castro, is Bush.

Worst president in American history, and insanely dangerous. And I know my history. So, it's more a matter of priorities. This is my country, and I hate to see everything that has been built on torn down.

[manic expression]

91. He's not a dictator

next question.

Be disgusted all you want, it won't change how woefully incorrect you are.

[Yupster]

95. After 46 years, isn't it time

for Battista to be put to bed?

"It's Clinton's penis's fault" has gotten very old and he's only been gone for five years.

[FlemingsGhost]

6. What's the truth about Guantanamo Bay? (n/t)

Flem.

[FlemingsGhost]

15. No reply ... not surprised.

I suspect the biggest human rights violations on the island of Cuba, is being perpetrated by "Uncle Sam."

Same goes for Latin America.

[CubsFan1982]

19. Why don't you put pressure on your reps in Congress to do something?

I've written letters to my Congressman and Senators, signed petitions, and handed out leaflets on my campus.

What have YOU done, except defend human rights violations committed by leftists?

[FlemingsGhost]

24. Nice misdirection

Answer the question.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlemingsGhost]

36. LOL ...

Nice laughing at you ...

Good luck.

[CubsFan1982]

42. Funny.

Keep living in your Communist loving fantasy world.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

18. Anyone heard from Jose Padilla lately?

Didn't think so.

Don

[CubsFan1982]

23. Notice the thread is not titled "the truth about Uncle George".

I'm talking about dictators we as liberals place our sympathies with.

I know our violations.

[NNN0LHI]

27. You have no moral high ground to be criticizing others

You think you do but you don't. Its called hypocrisy and its a sad thing to witness here.

Don

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CubsFan1982]

55. Have I said that we have no problems?

We as liberals condemn these acts. Why is it so difficult to do so in the case of Cuba and elsewhere?

[NNN0LHI]

59. My philosophy is to clean my house out FIRST before I start...

...criticizing others for the same kind of shit that is going on all around me in my own country. Otherwise we look like phony assholes by condemning others.

Its like Rush Limbaugh condemning drug users while he himself was hopped up on all kinds of dope. Same thing.

Don

[Guy Fawkes]

98. *IRONY ALERT* *IRONY ALERT*

[seemslikeadream]

28. THE TRUTH ABOUT GEORGE BUSH FASCIST DICTATOR OF THE USA

Two stolen elections
Won't enforce international treaties signed by his own father
LIHOP

WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO THINK OF THINGS TO SAY

SOMEONE LIES BLEEDING IN A FIELD SOMEWHERE

SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO

I'VE SEEN ALL I WANNA SEE TODAY

WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO MOVE YOU ANYWAY I CAN


SOMEONE'S SON LIES DEAD IN A GUTTER SOMEWHERE

AND IT WOULD SEEM THAT WE'VE GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO

BUT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE

SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY

TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO

SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY

WHILE I SIT AND WE TALK AND TALK AND WE TALK SOME MORE

SOMEONE'S LOVED ONE'S HEART STOPS BEATING IN A STREET SOMEWHERE

SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO, I KNOW

I'VE HEARD ALL I WANNA HEAR TODAY

TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)

SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY)

TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)

SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY)

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

TURN IT OFF


thanks phil collins for the words
my heart to the people of Haiti

[CubsFan1982]

31. Don't hijack my thread.

We know this already. And some of us are actually trying to stop, rather than fulminate about it on the Internet.

[seemslikeadream]

32. Please tell what you are doing about it

[FlemingsGhost]

38. LOL ... Well played. (n/t)

Flem.

[CubsFan1982]

45. Campus activism.

Our College Dems group has passed out hundreds if not thousands of leaflets on Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. We've circulated petitions to close down Abu Ghraib and free the wrongly imprisoned detainees at Gitmo. We've coordinated a letter writing campaign to our elected officials at the state and federal level. We've done as much as we can as college students, and if you have any other effective ideas to circulate our message, I would be very receptive to hearing them.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[manic expression]

78. He doesn't need them!

he knows a dirty red when he sees one, and he knows that 'Murica is land of the free and home of the brave. Why do you hate freedom? :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[not systems]

52. What are you doing about US backed death squads in Haiti?

Don't you think that openly repressing the political opposition,
arming known death squad killers and kidnapping a democratically
elected leader all in your name and with your tax dollars leaves
very little space open for you to critique the security policies
of other counties in the area who are trying to prevent similar
overthrows by the US.

[wli]

72. Abu Ghraib et al are just exporting our own prison system to Iraq

What are you going to do about the 2 million prisoners in the US? About the largest and longest-running act of mass rape in the history of humanity?

It is very racial, very political, and very biased. Check the following websites

Prisoners of the Census

Stop Prison Rape website founded by Vietnam -era peace activist Stephen Donaldson, who authorities arranged to have raped over 50 times in under 24 hours while temporarily jailed for participating in a peace demonstration.

At this point it's getting too painful for ME to look at. I'm going to punt and point at Third World Traveler for their COINTELPRO-related articles and give up.

[wli]

71. ... and Haiti is only one of the myriad countries the US does this to

It's worse than the holocaust.

[Comrade Kangaroo]

101. You can't possibly believe that...

Holocaust: 9 million people died (6 million Jews, at least 3 million others). Haiti/Vietnam/Iraq/Angola/Nizaragua/El Salvador put together don't equal that many. I agree US foreign policy over the last 50 years has been horrible and cruel, but saying it's worst than the Holocaust is hyperbolic and makes you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

[bribri16]

47. Whatever he is, he's still there and he's far better than Batista! n/t

[CubsFan1982]

57. Only because Batista was supported by the US.

I doubt there's much rationale to your opinion beyond the fact that Batista was supported by the US, and that's enough for you to think Fidel's better.

[bribri16]

68. Literacy, healthcare, and infant mortality all improved since Batista

was ousted. But don't let the facts cloud your thinking.

[manic expression]

79. Wrong again

Cuba under Batista was a hellhole. Prostitution, corruption, death squads, political killings, authoritarian rule were all common. Corporations ruled along with iron-fisted fascists. The people were treated like dirt.

Compare that with Cuba today, where health care, education, housing, food and political representation and freedom are all common.

If you dispute that Batista was NOT a horrible fascist dictator who was responsible for oppressing his people and whoring himself to foreign aims, you are more ignorant than I thought you ever could be.

[Blue_Tires]

83. so you think Batista was a better alternative?? n/t

[CubsFan1982]

84. Batista wasn't supported by our sworn enemy at the time.

Castro was. 'Nuff said.

[HuckleB]

100. Do you even know the history about Castro's revolution?

Or how the Soviets gained access in order to support him? How Eisenhower refused to meet with him, long before the Soviets took over full influence?

[Yupster]

97. Good Lord

Batista has been gone for 46 years.

It's crazy to still be comparing things to Batista but since Castro's been there for 46 years, I guess there is no one else to compare him to.

Since Castro took power there have been ten US presidents.

No person sould be in power for 46 years. That's just nuts.

What is the Emperor Franz Joseph's record -- I think it's something like 68 years. Can Fidel make it?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

53. Can't we just invade that lil island & make it right?

[CubsFan1982]

58. We can support dissidents in other, more productive ways.

Somehow, supporting democratic dissidents in a dictatorship is against our belief system here.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

60. Yeah, but, what would a quick invasion take, a couple days?

In & out before anybody knows it, install a good Cuban,
bing bang. Amazing we never tried to get Castro out of
there before.

[not systems]

61. Like cutting checks to fascist hit men and other "dissidents" in...

Florida.

It is sicking that such a ghoulish bunch of thugs has
lived off the dole from the American people for 40 years.

Just because they hate Fidel and long to be restored to
their positions as colonial kleptocrats and gangsters.

[NNN0LHI]

62. Remember when USA supported that "dissident" named Osama bin Laden?

Boy did that ever turn out great.

Don

[A-Schwarzenegger]

63. But we know where Castro is.

Invade, put somebody without a commie beard in there,
maybe set up a base, grab the oil, etc. Take a few
hundred bucks, couple hours, ding bang bing.

[not systems]

64. Flowers and chocolate for sure...

it will bring a blooming of rectitude and right thinking
through out the whole region.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

65. So, you're with me & CubsFa?

Now we just need to pick a good invasion site.
Maybe a nice Bay of some kind . . .

[wli]

73. they still do, or did up until his death

Don't believe for an instant they weren't fully paid for their participation... Mohammad Atta was paid 100K (or was it 100M?) USD, CIA->ISI->Atta, for his assistance.

[0007]

67. Kid, you've got a lot to learn.

You don't know a goddamn thing about Castro other than what you've read. If I were you I'd try reading a little Howard Zinn, especially, his book on "Passionate Declarations"

Then come back after you studied a little bit more and we'll discuss your issues.

[eridani]

69. Yes, by strictly limiting ourselves to acting through NGOs

NOTHING affiliated with the US government, which has been waging low-level terrorist war against Cuba for 45 years. That includes blowing up stuff, including planes full of civilians, and biological warfare directed against livestock.

[HuckleB]

106. Cool! More illegal invasions by the US of A!

Rock and ROLL!

:eyes:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

115. It's not illegal if the President does it.

Or if it's for a very good reason.

[Crunchy Frog]

74. I think the fixation that this country has had on Cuba

for the last four decades is really unhealthy and I find it somewhat incomprehensible. I'm no fan of Fidel's, but I've never seen any evidence that he's the monster that some people portray him as. At any rate, there are far worse dictators out there that our government supports, or even installed, and that would include Castro's predecessor, Batista.

I think we should just get over it, normalize relations with Cuba, and begin applying the same emigration standards to Cuba that we do to all the other countries in the region. I think that would do far more to promote democratic change there than all the pissing, moaning, and obsessing that we currently engage in.

[manic expression]

80. Here's the truth, read up...

You want to talk about those "dissidents"? Fine. Take 71 "prisoners of conscience" and plaster them over everything Cuba is. Fine. We'll talk about the worst and I'll beat you there, too.

Those "dissidents" were funded and supported by the US. They were being paid to destabilize Cuba and pose as oppressed political prisoners, when in actuality they were part of a campaign to disrupt Cuba, its people and its policies, which are not in tune with Uncle Sam's imperialist aims. We have been harboring terrorists who have killed innocents in Cuba, and this is only another part of that base policy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4726301.stm

Oh, and what is this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

That's a pathetic meeting of reactionaries who have no support of the people and, in some cases, are acting on behalf of the US to carry out the (pretty much illegal) policy you see in the first link.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

105. Amnesty International says something different!

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/cub-summary-eng

Bold mine:

Gee the law was previously unused!!
Snip

Detainees were brought to trial immediately and subjected to hasty and unfair proceedings. Most were charged under Article 91 of the Penal Code with “acts against the independence or territorial integrity of the state” or under the previously unused Law for the Protection of the National Independence and the Economy of Cuba. The latter mandates stiff prison terms for anyone found guilty of supporting US policy against Cuba. The dissidents were convicted on the basis of activities such as giving interviews to the US funded broadcasting station for Cuba, Radio Martí; receiving materials or funds believed to have originated in the US government; or having contact with officials of the US Interest Section in Havana, whom Cuban authorities had accused of engaging in subversive and provocative behaviour. By the end of the year all the sentences had been ratified by the Supreme Popular Court, exhausting the possibilities for appeal under Cuban law. Following a detailed assessment of the available evidence against them, AI considered that all 75 were prisoners of conscience.

Snip

[manic expression]

109. That's not news to me

I am well aware of Amnesty Intl's critique of some of Cuban policy. However, America has been funding and supporting "dissidents" to destabilize the Cuban government, a government with the backing of the Cuban people. Don't believe me? The US just set up an OFFICIAL POSITION to "hasten the demise of the Cuban Government" (paraphrased). These "dissidents" are working for disgusting US aims, and it is within Cuba's rights to protect itself from American meddling.

I think there's a difference between a dissident and an agent of a hostile country.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

110. Gee that's news to me too!! Wow! I didn't now that about

the U.S.!! News alert!!

Oh. Why was Fidel putting HIV positive people in isolation? Cuba ame under a lot criticism for that!! Sounds like a Jerry Falwell thing to me ........

[Judi Lynn]

112. Maybe you could provide a source for your charge.

It would be helpful.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

118. Here it is.

http://www.iaen.org/limelette/html/lim05.htm

The Case of Cuba
In 1987 Cuba launched a systematic HIV screening of its entire population and established 13 sanatoriums for those who are found HIV-positive. Once tested positive, the person must move to one of the sanatoriums.

Cuba received much attention from the international community not only because it was placing people in isolation and under surveillance, but also because it provided them with the medical services and lifestyle that are generally better than that of the general public. The residents of the sanatorium are paid 100 per cent of their salaries, guaranteed a high-protein diet, and transferred to a hospital when they have progressed to AIDS and receive treatment there.

They are permitted to leave the sanatorium grounds one day a week within a specified time. After six months, if they are deemed responsible, they are allowed to leave for the weekend without company. Sexual activity is permitted and condoms are made available.

Cuba is a unique case. Its policies provoked heated discussions and tensions within the public health and human rights communities. While some human rights groups decried the initiative, others noted that the Cuban government is not violating human rights law, because it is fulfilling the responsibility of respecting the dignity of PLWHA by providing humane living conditions and health care.

Source: Bayer and Healton, and Johnson, cited in Whelen 1993.

[manic expression]

121. Ummm.....

Taking into account the knowledge of AIDS and HIV at that time, and taking into account the way it was spreading, and taking into account the way Cuba handled it, this does not seem all too unreasonable to me.

"...medical services and lifestyle that are generally better than that of the general public."

"The residents of the sanatorium are paid 100 per cent of their salaries, guaranteed a high-protein diet, and transferred to a hospital when they have progressed to AIDS and receive treatment there."

"Sexual activity is permitted and condoms are made available."

"...it is fulfilling the responsibility of respecting the dignity of PLWHA by providing humane living conditions and health care."

[glendavis77]

113. Jamaica violates homosexuals rights

Is Fidel their president? Why don't you start a thread about them?
Changes in other cultures will happen more slowly than they do in CAnada, Spain and other more developed countries.

Hated to Death:
Homophobia, Violence, and Jamaica’s HIV/AIDS Epidemic
From your beloved human rights watch website:
http://hrw.org/reports/2004/jamaica1104/

[Crazy Guggenheim]

116. That's not what I am talking about!

[manic expression]

117. What are you talking about?

"That's NOT news to me" AS IN: "I KNOW". :eyes:

What IS news to you is that Latin American culture is VERY homophobic, and unfortunately, since the Cuban people are homophobic, and since they are fairly represented in the government, their sentiments were carried out. It is very disgusting, but it is the fault of Latin American culture, not of the Cuban Government and not of its other very good policies.

And by the way, what was the Reagan Admn. saying about the same thing? Oh, I see.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

119. None of that is news to me! Ok. It 's the fault of Latin American

Culture!

I'm not going to defend the Reagan Admin. Defend what you believe first! I other words where do you stand?

[Placebo]

81. If someone is going to defend Castro...

they why not defend Hitler? or Stalin? or Osama? or George W. Bush?

They're all the same. They're evil scum.

[evilqueen]

96. I just love the broad generalizations.

They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum. They're all the same. They're evil scum.

Clue : They aren't all the same.

I don't agree with or apologize for everything Castro has done that we think is bad. I also don't think everything he's done has been bad for his country, he has done some good things. I do think there are some changes he could make to his country's laws and policies, particularly in matters of free speech and press, but I don't see anything wrong with him fighting against U.S. propaganda attempts.

I also don't agree that the U.S. should fund assassination, destabilization, and overthrow attempts.

If I were Castro, I would be negotiating for the end of the embargo, but not welcome corporate imperialism in. I also don't think I would like the presence of Guantanamo Prison in my country.

[Judi Lynn]

99. You may easily have already read through this information, but.....

it sounds like something you may find interesting if you haven't. Kennedy Sought Dialogue with Cuba

INITIATIVE WITH CASTRO ABORTED BY ASSASSINATION,
DECLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS SHOW

Oval Office Tape Reveals Strategy to hold clandestine Meeting in Havana; Documents record role of ABC News correspondent Lisa Howard as secret intermediary in Rapprochement effort

Posted - November 24, 2003

Washington D.C. - On the 40th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the eve of the broadcast of a new documentary film on Kennedy and Castro, the National Security Archive today posted an audio tape of the President and his national security advisor, McGeorge Bundy, discussing the possibility of a secret meeting in Havana with Castro. The tape, dated only seventeen days before Kennedy was shot in Dallas, records a briefing from Bundy on Castro's invitation to a U.S. official at the United Nations, William Attwood, to come to Havana for secret talks on improving relations with Washington. The tape captures President Kennedy's approval if official U.S. involvement could be plausibly denied.

The possibility of a meeting in Havana evolved from a shift in the President's thinking on the possibility of what declassified White House records called "an accommodation with Castro" in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Proposals from Bundy's office in the spring of 1963 called for pursuing "the sweet approach…enticing Castro over to us," as a potentially more successful policy than CIA covert efforts to overthrow his regime. Top Secret White House memos record Kennedy's position that "we should start thinking along more flexible lines" and that "the president, himself, is very interested in ." Castro, too, appeared interested. In a May 1963 ABC News special on Cuba, Castro told correspondent Lisa Howard that he considered a rapprochement with Washington "possible if the United States government wishes it. In that case," he said, "we would be agreed to seek and find a basis" for improved relations.

The untold story of the Kennedy-Castro effort to seek an accommodation is the subject of a new documentary film, KENNEDY AND CASTRO: THE SECRET HISTORY, broadcast on the Discovery/Times cable channel on November 25 at 8pm. The documentary film, which focuses on Ms. Howard's role as a secret intermediary in the effort toward dialogue, was based on an article -- "JFK and Castro: The Secret Quest for Accommodation" -- written by Archive Senior Analyst Peter Kornbluh in the magazine, Cigar Aficionado. Kornbluh served as consulting producer and provided key declassified documents that are highlighted in the film. "The documents show that JFK clearly wanted to change the framework of hostile U.S. relations with Cuba," according to Kornbluh. "His assassination, at the very moment this initiative was coming to fruition, leaves a major 'what if' in the ensuing history of the U.S. conflict with Cuba."

Among the key documents relevant to this history:

• Oval Office audio tape, November 5, 1963. The tape records a conversation between the President and McGeorge Bundy regarding Castro's invitation to William Attwood, a deputy to UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson, to come to Cuba for secret talks. The President responds that Attwood should be taken off the U.S. payroll prior to such a meeting so that the White House can plausibly deny that any official talks have taken place if the meeting leaks to the press.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Mr. Donovan's Trip to Cuba," March 4, 1963. This document records President Kennedy's interest in negotiations with Castro and his instructions to his staff to "start thinking along more flexible lines" on conditions for a dialogue with Cuba.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Policy," April 11, 1963. A detailed options paper from Gordon Chase, the Latin America specialist on the National Security Council, to McGeorge Bundy recommending "looking seriously at the other side of the coin-quietly enticing Castro over to us."
  CIA briefing paper, Secret, "Interview of U.S. Newswoman with Fidel Castro Indicating Possible Interest in Rapprochement with the United States," May 1, 1963. A debriefing of Lisa Howard by CIA deputy director Richard Helms, regarding her ABC news interview with Castro and her opinion that he is "ready to discuss rapprochement." The document contains a notation, "Psaw," meaning President Kennedy read the report on Howard and Castro.
  
• U.S. UN Mission memorandum, Secret, Chronology of events leading up Castro invitation to receive a U.S. official for talks in Cuba, November 8, 22, 1963. This chronology was written by William Attwood and records the evolution of the initiative set in motion by Lisa Howard for a dialogue with Cuba. The document describes the party at Howard's Manhattan apartment on September 23, 1963, where Attwood met with Cuban UN Ambassador Carlos Lechuga to discuss the potential for formal talks to improve relations. In an addendum, Attwood adds information on communications, using the Howard home as a base, leading up to the day the President was shot in Dallas.
  White House memorandum, Secret, November 12, 1963. McGeorge Bundy reports to William Attwood on Kennedy's opinion of the viability of a secret meeting with Havana. The president prefers that the meeting take place in New York at the UN where it will be less likely to be leaked to the press.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Approach to Castro," November 19, 1963. A memo from Gordon Chase to McGeorge Bundy updating him on the status of arrangements for a secret meeting with the Cubans.
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Cuba -- Item of Presidential Interest," November 25, 1963. A strategy memo from Gordon Chase to McGeorge Bundy assessing the problems and potential for pursuing the secret talks with Castro in the aftermath of Kennedy's assassination.
  
• Message from Fidel Castro to Lyndon Johnson, "Verbal Message given to Miss Lisa Howard of ABC News on February 12, 1964, in Havana, Cuba." A private message carried by Howard to the White House in which Castro states that he would like the talks started with Kennedy to continue: "I seriously hope (and I cannot stress this too strongly) that Cuba and the United States can eventually sit down in an atmosphere of good will and of mutual respect and negotiate our differences."
  
• United Nations memorandum, Top Secret, from Adlai Stevenson to President Johnson, June 16, 1964. Stevenson sends the "verbal message" given to Lisa Howard to Johnson with a cover memo briefing him on the dialogue started under Kennedy and suggesting consideration of resumption of talks "on a low enough level to avoid any possible embarrassment."
  
• White House memorandum, Top Secret, "Adlai Stevenson and Lisa Howard," July 7, 1964. Gordon Chase reports to Bundy on his concerns that Howard's role as an intermediary has now escalated through her contact with Stevenson at the United Nations and the fact that a message has been sent back through her to Castro from the White House. Chase recommends trying "to remove Lisa from direct participation in the business of passing messages," and using Cuban Ambassador to the UN, Carlos Lechuga, instead.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/

[evilqueen]

107. Yes, I've read some of this.

I think the National Security Archive is one of the greatest resources online for understanding U.S. foreign policy & our history (the press gets it wrong so often, it's no wonder people aren't informed). The briefing books on Latin America, the Intelligence Services, and even the one about Saddam Hussein are also filled with tons of factual info. I sometimes think that many Americans aren't "ready for the truth." There's a lot of pretty scary stuff there.

I try to read a little bit each month from there. I haven't been real consistent about doing that, though, depending on what else I've got going on over here. Still, it's one heck of an education, if you make the time to do it.

FWIW, I once wrote a paper about my opinions on what Castro should do. Months later, I got an email from a journalist that was headed for Cuba who said he was bringing my paper with him and would give it to Castro. I have no idea if that actually happened, but the idea of it was pretty amusing. :)

[Judi Lynn]

111. I'll bet he got it. They say he reads voraciously, still.

That's an outstanding commendation, for sure. Congrats!

There's such a need for people who actually KNOW something about US/Latin American history, policy. It appears many folks assume what they hear through tv shows and right-wing radio hosts, even many of our newspapers is probably true! I'd say they're lost causes.

[rman]

103. "all the same" - that's an over-simplification if there ever was one.

Osama isn't even a world leader/states man.

[Lars39]

86. I just love it when the whole team shows up!

:wipes tears from eyes: :D

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

88. Heh.

[Balbus]

102. I, for one, will miss you.

:-(

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

104. The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long and you

have burned so very, very brightly Roy. Look at you, you're the prodigal son, you're quite a prize.
-Tyrell

[glendavis77]

108. As I was saying, Sweden violated torture ban with US help

I'm just helping you gather more material for your torture collection, Cubsfan. I'm with you 100%. (hope you cover capitalist countries as well as socialist ones).
Tip: You can find violations of free speech by virtually any president in the hrw website that you love so much. Make sure to start a thread for all of them.



http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/20/sweden10991.htm

[Judi Lynn]

114. Thanks for the suggestion!

Guess what I found! They've been concerned about the right-wing Cuban "exile" community in Miami, and its suppression of free speech!

Dangerous Dialogue
RevisitedThreats to Freedom of Expression Continue in Miami’s Cuban Exile Community
In 1992, we released a report (see B407) documenting instances of harassment and intimidation against members of the Miami Cuban exile community who expressed moderate political views regarding the government of Fidel Castro or relations with Cuba. In addition to intimidation by private actors, the report found significant responsibility by the U.S. government at all levels. We have continued to monitor free expression in Miami and have noted some improvements, particularly in the apparent diminution of direct government involvement or complicity in repressive activities. Overall, however, the atmosphere for unpopular political speech remains marked by fear and danger, while government officials maintain a conspicuous silence.
HRW Index No.: B614
November 1, 1994 Report

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've heard about this before. A Lot. Very, very interesting.

[glendavis77]

120. The Miami exiles?

Bah, We all know they are friends with uncle Fidel.
:sarcasm:

[Moderator]

122. Locking

flame-bait