Would any other country just sit by when thousands of poor may die?

[many a good man]

All those poor people in the Super Dome may very well perish tomorrow. Is there any other country in the world (that had the means) that would allow such a thing to take place? Why aren't we doing everything possible, sparing no expense to evacuate everyone??

Its a horrible shame that we, as a nation, allow thousands of people to die because they are too poor or too infirm to save themselves.

What does this say about us as a people? In many parts of the world they will see this as even worse than Iraq. Whatever happened to American moral values???

[Roxy66]

1. I just made a post refering to FUNDING...this just pisses me .....

[barbaraann]

2. The Reagan Revolution replaced community with selfishness.

n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Yes..that IS when it all began...

[SoCalDem]

22. It's MY money.. The Toddler-ization of America

mine-mine-mine-mine-mine

[havocmom]

3. What did the master say about what is done to the least of us...

Wonder when Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Moon of the Second Coming will be along to get those people to safety and see that they are fed.

::cue crickets::

[ladjf]

30. Their message is in no way related to the teachings of Jesus.

They are preaching a Gospel of hatred, violence, greed and suffering.

[havocmom]

32. That's why an old heathen like me likes to remind them of how far they

have fallen from the path they try to cram down my throat.

[ladjf]

34. I'm not a Christian but I admire the teachings of Jesus as stated

in the New Testament. What I don't understand is where are all of the real, sincere and loving Christians and preachers? They should be screaming bloody murder.

[havocmom]

39. Me too, that is why I refer to Jesus as the Master, as I do with any great

teacher. Many fine teachings, even though one must work around the agendas of the various powers who edited and translated the works.

Yes, hearing more from Christians who walk the walk will be good. Many came out after Robertson's little faux pas (or was it fatwah?)

Was surprised one evening when someone asked how many ordained clerics we have on DU. Rather refreshing to learn the number was high.

[LeftyFingerPop]

4. Super Dome

My understanding is that the Super Dome was built to withstand 200 mph winds and is sufficiently above sea level to serve as a suitable shelter. Any fellow DU's please correct me if this is not correct.

My main concern is the aftermath......water supply and sanitary conditions.

God Bless them.

[theshadow]

16. Except it's shelter without food or water...

.... and I doubt the refugees have adequately estimated their needs.

[OrlandoGator]

6. We already did it once with the Tsunami.

Our president didn't even publicly acknowledge that it had even happened until nearly a week later.

[TwilightZone]

14. Ah, but this is different, because potential voters are involved.

I'd bet anything that he's much quicker on the draw on this one. Photo ops await, and Republicans will look at this as just another opportunity to suck up to voters.

Make a bunch of promises that they never intend to keep.

[etherealtruth]

47. Yeah, but does N.O. usually go repuke or dem ...

... the Chimps disinterest tells me dem ...

[TwilightZone]

48. Good point. Orleans County is heavily D.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/LA/P/00/county.001.html#22071

Much of the rest of LA is R.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/LA/P/00/index.html

[undergroundpanther]

7. Social darwinism

We have sucked up to the elites,the elites are sociopaths. It's the same thing when as a citizen you seek a leader and people that seek power are bullies they turn on the charm and people misplace trust in them,who are not trustworthy,the greedy PR infested "elite who would destroy us all to be comfortable,get what they want,and"win"..Stop seeking the bold abuser, leaders,start seeking equality in friends and communities.
Bush would destroy everyone who is poor,black,gay,woman,middle class,,to save his own class the group of about 100 super rich arrogant sociopaths that"lead and live in for spotlight or greedy thugs that hide their face from us but we feel their impacts in our lives anyway.

[ladjf]

31. You are not exaggerating in the slightest.

[iamjoy]

8. Yes, It Is Kind Of Crazy

It is not just the money involved in evacuating people, it is the logistics, but one must wonder why there isn't a plan.

We plan for terrorist attacks, devoting time and resources.

Nothing for catastrophic storms, and we have more warning for that than for terrorist attacks (maybe).

It would be hard to have a good evacuation of the Florida peninsula for something like this, but not many other areas.

I suggested in another post that for people who have no other means, put them on a military troop transport truck and move them 100 or more miles from any coast. Work with NGOs to get emergency shelter there.

[BrklynLiberal]

9. (This story was published in July 2000)

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2000/wnoflood.htm

Big Easy' a bowl of trouble in hurricanes

By James West and Chris Vaccaro, USATODAY.com

With the 2000 hurricane season entering its most fierce stage, should the "Big Easy" change its nickname to the "Big Worry"? Officials there who plan for hurricanes think so.
The last time a major hurricane – with winds over 111 mph – came close to New Orleans was Hurricane Camille in 1969, says Paul Trotter, chief of the National Weather Service office in nearby Slidell, La. That storm came ashore about 55 miles east of New Orleans in Mississippi. Trotter says that there have been 12 or 13 major storms to hit within 85 miles of New Orleans in the last 120 years, or an average of one major hurricane occurring once a decade.

"With Camille hitting over 30 years ago, we are well overdue for a major one," Trotter says.

New Orleans, a city of nearly 1.4 million people, sits below sea level, as much as 8 feet lower than water in nearby Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River and its delta, where it empties into the Gulf of Mexico. This in effect creates a "bowl" that floodwaters can settle into, like water headed for a stopped-up drain.

To combat this unique problem, a system of levees surrounds the city to hold back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain to the north and the Mississippi River to the south, says Joseph Suhayda, director of the Louisiana Water Resources Research Institute at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. The levee that holds back Lake Pontchartrain is 15 feet high while the one guarding against the Mississippi River is 20 feet tall.

Suhayda says the 15-foot levee will protect the city from a minimum hurricane of Category 1 or 2 intensity and at best a fast-moving Category 3 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson hurricane intensity scale.

"A slow-moving Category 3 or any Category 4 or 5 hurricane passing within 20 or 30 miles of New Orleans would be devastating," Suhayda says.

The storm surge — water pushed into a mound by hurricane winds — would pour over the Pontchartrain levee and flood the city. A severe hurricane could push floodwaters inside the New Orleans bowl as high as 20-30 feet, covering most homes and the first three or four stories of buildings in the city, he says. "This brings a great risk of casualties."

In this type of scenario the metro area could be submerged for more than 10 weeks, says Walter S. Maestri, Director of Emergency Management for Jefferson Parish, which encompasses more than half of the city. In those 10 weeks, residents would need drinking water, food and a dry place to live.

Besides the major problems flooding would bring, there is also concern about a potentially explosive and deadly problem. Suhayda says flooding of the whole city could easily mix industrial and household chemicals into a toxic and volatile mix. Coupled with an estimated 100,000 tons of sediment, a cleanup could take several months. In the worst case scenario, the mix of toxic chemicals could make some areas of the city uninhabitable. "It could take several years for the city to recover fully, economically, from a strong hurricane," says Suhayda.

To make residents aware of the dangers New Orleans faces, Maestri and his staff visit churches, professional organizations and social clubs almost every week of the year to discuss the risks. They distribute videos to schools, libraries and even to video stores for free distribution to the public. They also provide information to the commercial mass media to make the public aware.

Maestri says that the public knows and understands the threat they face if a major hurricane was to strike near New Orleans. For instance, when Hurricane Georges threatened the Gulf Coast in 1998, an estimated 60 percent of the New Orleans population evacuated the city, Maestri says. It was the largest evacuation in U.S. history at the time, according to the National Weather Service. Even then, not everyone could get out, and the Louisiana Superdome in New Orleans was used as a shelter for the first time. Fortunately for the city, Hurricane Georges, a Category 2 hurricane with winds near 110 mph, landed to the east in Biloxi, Miss.

Despite the difficulty in getting everyone out, Maestri says evacuation is the best policy for a city under sea level and not fully protected from storm surge and flooding. But he is concerned that he still might not have enough advance warning to evacuate all of New Orleans. Improvements in hurricane predictions during the last 30 years have made it possible for the National Hurricane Center to issue hurricane warnings 24 hours ahead of when a storm hits. But, Maestri says it takes nearly 72 hours to fully evacuate New Orleans. This means that an evacuation order must be issued using a forecast that could have an error of 150 miles. While Maestri and his team are busy evacuating the city, the storm could be heading for Alabama and Mississippi to the east or the bayous of western Louisiana instead of New Orleans.

An evacuation could create a ghost town unnecessarily and make people more complacent when the next hurricane nears the Gulf Coast. Maestri is also concerned that he could be placing evacuees in the path of danger if a storm struck along the evacuation routes instead of New Orleans.

Besides getting everybody out, Suhayda says there are two alternate solutions that would protect people from potential flooding if a category 4 or 5 hurricane were to hit the city. The first would be to raise the levees, especially the one bordering Lake Pontchartrain. Raising the lake levee to the 20-foot height of the Mississippi River levee should give enough protection for the city. Another solution, the so-called "haven plan" by Suhayda, would involve building an internal levee that would protect the city's core; hospitals, government buildings and transportation as well as the electrical and water infrastructure would be safe from the ravages of a flood.

But the two plans involving the building of new levees are massive and expensive public works projects, Suhayda says. They would take more than a decade to plan and build, he concludes, leaving the city with no improvement to its hurricane problem in the near future.

"Residents will have to deal with a threat of flooding for at least the next 10-15 years."

[Fatima]

10. I think the Super Dome will hold up just fine.

Keep your chin up. Yes, hurricane evacuation planning must get better, but you also have to understand that you can't protect every single person from every single terrible thing that happens, it's just impossible. There is a certain risk to living in hurricane-prone areas. I live in one.

[TwilightZone]

11. The Superdome is built to sustain 200+ mph winds.

It's probably the safest place in the entire city.

And to answer your question, thousands die pretty much every time a major hurricane/typhoon hits Central America or Southeast Asia. Their disaster contingency plans are even worse than ours.

This is a sincere question: what do you suggest that we do? Getting 100,000 people out of a city in a very short period of time would take monumental resources. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try, but I think it's a matter of infrastructure. Unfortunately, nobody plans for a disaster of this magnitude, and the time available is limited.

[Thtwudbeme]

12. Honduras did

they knew their storm was coming for a flipping week. Jim Cantore knew it, I knew it, the rich bastards in Honduras knew it.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. This is what they said in November 2004..

November 2004
What if Hurricane Ivan Had Not Missed New Orleans?
<snip>
If a hurricane of a magnitude similar to Ivan does strike New Orleans, the challenges surrounding rescue efforts for those who have not evacuated will be different from other coastal areas. Rescue teams would have to don special breathing equipment to protect themselves from floodwaters contaminated with chemicals and toxins released from commercial sources within the city and the petrochemical plants that dot the river’s edge. Additionally, tank cars carrying hazardous materials, which constantly pass through the city, would likely be damaged, leaking their contents into the floodwater and adding to the “brew.” The floodwater could become so polluted that the Environmental Protection Agency might consider it to be hazardous waste and prohibit it from being pumped out of the leveed areas into the lake and marshes until treated.

Regional and national rescue resources would have to respond as rapidly as possible and would require augmentation by local private vessels (assuming some survived). And, even with this help, federal and state governments have estimated that it would take 10 days to rescue all those stranded within the city. No shelters within the city would be free of risk from rising water. Because of this threat, the American Red Cross will not open shelters in New Orleans during hurricanes greater than category 2; staffing them would put employees and volunteers at risk. For Ivan, only the Superdome was made available as a refuge of last resort for the medically challenged and the homeless.

In this hypothetical storm scenario, it is estimated that it would take nine weeks to pump the water out of the city, and only then could assessments begin to determine what buildings were habitable or salvageable. Sewer, water, and the extensive forced drainage pumping systems would be damaged. National authorities would be scrambling to build tent cities to house the hundreds of thousands of refugees unable to return to their homes and without other relocation options. In the aftermath of such a disaster, New Orleans would be dramatically different, and likely extremely diminished, from what it is today. Unlike the posthurricane development surges that have occurred in coastal beach communities, the cost of rebuilding the city of New Orleans’ dramatically damaged infrastructure would reduce the likelihood of a similar economic recovery. And, the unique culture of this American original that contributed jazz and so much more to the American culture would be lost.
<snip>
more...
http://www.colorado.edu/hazards/o/nov04/nov04c.html

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. Spending money for 2 purposes: Winning elections & Halliburton

Nothing and nobody else matters.

[prplhze2000]

17. What do I know, I'm just down here but some posts are pretty ignorant.

One poster made a remark about people leaving in their cars, only a couple of people per car. Well, I left Baton Rouge at 12:30AM. Got to Jackson, MS at 5:00AM. At every stop I made, EVERY vehicle that was fleeing the storm was filled with people. with their belongings for who knows how many days thrown in as an afterthought. Most of these people do NOT expect to even have a home if or when they return. On the roads yesterday and today I didn't see anyone taking such leisurely drives. Everyone I know is getting out of the area and taking as many people as they can with them. Those include Democrats, Republicans, Black, White, whatever classification you want. There are alot of people who HAVE been helped out by people they never knew but I guess those people were doing it for some unknown selfish reason and not to help their fellow man.

As for those people getting stuck in New Orleans, Mayor Nagin, who is minority for those who keep track of such things, did everything he could to tell these people to leave. The Sherriff, Harry Lee, told everyone all weekend to get out in no uncertain terms. Alot of people simply do NOT think it will be that bad. I have a good friend who is in tears because her idiot 18 year old son will not leave the quarter because he thinks its not that big a deal. Alot of people were told and chose not to leave. WHAT can government do in those cases? The problem is that these people who are now showing up at the dome are stuck. There will be no safe place but that structure in the city if its a direct hit.

As for the cruel heartless rich, I know several who are doing everything they can to help. One owns a lumber company. He will lose about 2 million dollars in lumber when in New Orleans when his yard goes underwater. He still has been up non stop from his home in Monroe, LA arranging for 18 wheelers to bring in plywood, generators, water, ice, and other necessities to give out at his distribution centers and no, he is not making money off of this stuff. He geniunely cares what happens to people.

In Baton Rouge, Mayor Holden, recently elected minority mayor, is not even IN THE CITY!!!! His assistant is handling everything and refuses to comment on where the mayor is and when he will return.

There are only so many roads that exit the city because of its being closed in by water. Once the winds get to a certain point, you can not let anyone on those causeways.

This storm rose to such fury in a hurry and caught alot of people by surprise. No one expected the clone of Camille to suddenly appear this weekend. There are a lot of good people, poor, rich, middle class who have tried to help and make a difference. However, at some point nature does overwhelm these efforts. If it hits New Orleans, there will be tragedy. It IS sickening. It is maddening. Short of sending 100K troops door to door to get people, it would have been impossible to get alot of people out in time.

As for people saying they have no where to go, that is so stupid on its face. Just GET OUT!!! If all you are doing is waiting at a rest area on the state line or somewhere else, at least you are not there where the city will be underwater if a direct hit takes place. I am speaking in general of course. There will be some who have no means etc to get out of town but there is no way to get to all of them either. The Mayor would've had to commandeer every bus, etc in the first 24 hours. the problem with these storms also is they are so unpredictable that at what point do you make these decisions.

Too often there is no right time and no matter what judgement you make there will be criticism. Bush probably could not have done much different (and before anyone bashes me I have never voted for him and never will).

I should apologize for offending some but I do not care at this point. I guess I am not an expert on this tragedy as I live down here and am too close to it as compared to those of you who live in the ivory towers from which you can spew forth your intelligent and knowledgeable comments about the storms impact and the residents in the area. I frankly am disgusted by some of the posts and the first thought for this person with 3 degrees was to grab a baseball bat. However, I am too busy taking in people from New Orleans up here in jackson to think about this anymore after I write this post.

I will say that alot of you do NOT know what you are talking about. Alot of good people will die in this tragedy if it pans out like we t hink it will. Alot of GOOD people are going to lose their homes, jobs, loved ones, and things that are precious to them. For them to be ridiculed by some of you on this board is outrageous and beyond the pale and merely shows the anger that you have over something in your own pathetic life.

[uppityperson]

23. Thanks for the good post and welcome to DU

DU is a big tent with all sorts of people in it. Some are more reasoned than others, some are more articulate than others. This is a good post and thank you. I wish the best for you all in hurricane land, hope that it does not happen as badly as it might. Peace

[Blue_In_AK]

24. Be safe, prplhze2000...

....and patient with DUers. Everyone is very, very concerned -- they just express it in different ways.

[Fatima]

25. I just get tired of people who politicize everything

be safe and take care.

[prplhze2000]

28. Exactly . That is my point.

The whole problem is that New Orleans is under sea level and is a bowl. No way around that fact. One other post did bother me. One poster made a remark about most people at the dome being African American. Since the vast majority of N.O. is that ethnicity, that should be expected actually. The leadership of the city, which is African American, did everything it could to warn them and short of martial law, try to get them to leave. these things just happen that quickly.

[many a good man]

33. Its a moral, not a political indictment

No one thinks it would be easy or that we have the least chance of saving everybody. There are people trapped there who can't get out. This is a cataclysmic event and we have the opportunity to save at least a few souls. Why don't we expect our leaders to do everything possible to save our lives? How much is one life worth?

I don't think its a matter of logistics or politics or anything like that. It speaks to our character as a people. Most individuals I know will go to extraordinary lengths to help others in an emergency-- why can't we act that way collectively as a nation? Do we care less for other people's lives than people in other (advanced) societies? Or is our social structure incapable of reflecting the values of the people?

[prplhze2000]

44. You make an excellent point.

We should. I think in hindsight that plans probably should be already drawn up. you and I both know how that happens. Assign to a committee, get reports from various departments. Then compile into one committee report. Then discuss for awhile and two years later you finally get a plan. But absent a plan, these things move so fast that you are just reacting and here we are where we are.

Now if you want to state that there should be an aggressive plan in place, I will agree with you. But I will estimate at least 50,000 people would need to be evacuated that can not evacuate themselves for various reasons. Assembling buses or other means of transportation in such numbers so quickly is quite a feat in planning and execution. When you are reacting like you would be in the last 48 hours, different story. You're praying that we can pull off a dunkirk just as impromptu and that is a pipedream. Good post.

[Catherine Vincent]

41. I hope this wasn't the post that bothered you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4488903&mesg_id=4489126

I was only stating a fact. They (people in the lines) were mostly african americans. Why did that bother you?

[prplhze2000]

42. and another fact is that that ethnic group comprises the vast majority

of the city. If the city was 60 percent white and 40 percent Black then I would say you might have a point. But when the majority of the city is Black by far, well, what would you expect most of these people to be that you see on tv if they are not tourists? If there was a blizzard in Montana I would expect to see alot of White people in shelters.

[Catherine Vincent]

43. But that's the thing....I wasn't making a point.

I was only stating a fact that there were mostly AA's standing in line. If it would have been mostly caucasians, I would have said that most of the people were caucasians. No point. Just stating a fact.

[prplhze2000]

45. gotcha.

What was the purpose of pointing out the fact then? Honest question.

hadn't thought of it but maybe some of these posters do have a point about planning.

[crispini]

26. welcome to DU

Peace and take care. Good post.

[OneGrassRoot]

27. Thank you for your post.........

you're all in our thoughts. Nice to hear about the good deeds being done to help one another.

[BrklynLiberal]

29. Take care..and it is good to know that that there are so many out there

trying to help. I hope that the most good can be done for the most people.

I believe the majority of people here are just mortified at the thought that 50,000 people could be lost in one fell swoop and cannot believe that it could not have been prevented. It is hard to combat Mother Nature and Human Nature at the same time.

If it is at all possible, keep us posted as to how things are going.

Take care.

[ultraist]

35. I'm glad you made it out safely! Welcome to DU

Not everyone, is as fortunate. Many people are not able to get out. They may not have a vehicle or the money to take a road trip. I heard a woman interviewed today, in fact, who said she could not leave, because she didn't have any money.

I don't understand why they didn't provide free transportation out for those who couldn't afford to leave on their own.

[achtung_circus]

36. Yup.

Please ensure brain is engaged before putting keyboard in gear.

Not telling this to you, but I'll bet it applies to some of the posters to whom you are responding.

Armchair quarterbacks, perhaps, but also maybe just so used to typing at a moment's notice.

Anyone who doesn't know what to look for might not see the signs of organization. The suggestions about opening highways in both directions, busing people out, etc. etc. are all considered by emergency planners, but nothing is 100%. There will be people who either will not or can not get out.


BTW welcome to DU, stick around.

[CottonBear]

40. Stay safe and welcome to DU prplhze2000.

My in-laws are in Lacombe, LA (near Slidell) and are staying to wait out the storm in their homes. They are not right on the lake. My sister-in law's house will probably flood. She's staying with her cousin in a higher location. I'm praying for all of you down there. My grandparents went through Camille and Frederick. Those were bad. This one is worse. God have mercy on you all.

[uppityperson]

18. I thought you were talking about Iraq at first.

[newswolf56]

19. Capitalism values people solely on the basis of their wealth. Bush...

has taken the leash and muzzle off American capitalism and loosed it on the American people in all its Tyrannosauric pre-Soviet, pre-New-Deal malevolence. Hence the bitter truth: natural disasters as part of capitalism's "final solution" to the "problem" of people who are impoverished and/or disabled -- the real reason nothing is being done to evacuate poor people from New Orleans. This is also the underlying reason for privatizing the relief effort: the deliberate savagery of economic and racial discrimination is much easier to conceal when the perpetrator is a corporation rather than a government agency.

Here again, the oligarchy's ever-escalating war against working families and the poor.

Here again, the ultimate relevance of the Marxist concept of class struggle.

[wli]

37. much easier to conceal when it's LIHOP hurricane mis-evacuation, too

Naturally, they'll claim incompetence and that it's all an innocent mistake. But we know better.

It's intentional, and the sort of thing Bushler and Cheney hope for and dream of.

[BrklynLiberal]

20. September 14, 2004............

September 14, 2004
Hurricane Risk for New Orleans: "if that Category Five Hurricane comes to New Orleans, 50,000 people could lose their lives. Now that is significantly larger than any estimates that we would have of individuals who might lose their lives from a terrorist attack. When you start to do that kind of calculus - and it's horrendous that you have to do that kind of calculus - it appears to those of us in emergency management, that the risk is much more real and much more significant, when you talk about hurricanes. I don't know that anybody, though, psychologically, has come to grip with that: that the French Quarter of New Orleans could be gone." (Nb. this excerpt from a fascinating 2002 American RadioWorks documentary does not refer specifically to Ivan.)
more.........
http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/35586

[SoCalDem]

21. yes..

lots would.. but WE were better than that once.

[cornermouse]

38. China would.

I guess we're on the same level.

[JanMichael]

46. And Cuba doesn't.

Interesting, eh?