Cnn anchor indignant about people looting food...

[katsy]

@ a winn dixie.

Damned those poor people stealing FOOD in a flooded area during a hurricane!


:sarcasm:

[DemNoir]

1. Well!

I'm indignant about CNN anchors.

[Squatch]

2. Stealing is ALWAYS wrong

[Terran]

5. Honestly, you can't think of a single situation

where stealing something (let's say food for argument's sake) wouldn't be "wrong"?

[Squatch]

10. Nope.

Fat Tony: Bart.. uhm. Is it it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?

Bart: No..

Fat Tony: Well suppose you got a large starving family. Is it wrong to steal a truckload of bread to feed them?

Bart: Nuh-uh

Fat Tony: And what if your family don't like bread. They like.. cigarettes.

Bart: I guess that's okay.

Fat Tony: Now, what if instead of giving them away.. you sold them at a price that was practically giving them away. Would that be a crime, Bart?

Bart: Hell no!

[Terran]

15. M'kay, just checking

I don't know what the rest of that was supposed to be about; it certainly wasn't relevant to my question. Thanks :eyes:

[ultraist]

56. LMAO!

:rofl:


Stealing is always "wrong" if you subscribe to black and white thinking or pre-operational reasoning.

[Squatch]

79. LMAO, indeed.

Link

[ultraist]

95. I wasn't referring to this specific case, but your generalization

I don't use the OT as my "rule book" as you do.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

100. For some the Bible works, for others, moral reasoning works.

[Squatch]

103. Surely you mean "moral equivocation"

[ultraist]

114. No, that's not what I mean. Lame straw man attack, on your part.

Not all of us blindly accept the "rules" of the Bible and apply them to all contexts.

Do you believe it's always, "wrong" to kill? Even in self defense?

BTW, your words are certainly hostile for a supposed "Christian." WWJD?

[MildyRules]

11. Justifable perhaps

but still technically wrong.

[Terran]

16. Does "technically" matter?

if it's 'morally' justifiable?

Sorry, this could get deep. The idea that it's *always* wrong just struck me as really unchristian/unethical/uncharitable + any number of other things.

[Squatch]

18. Thou shall not steal.

Doesn't say, "unless you are so-and-so poor."

[Terran]

34. Oh yeah, the Old Testament is a real compelling standard

to go by. And if there are exceptions to "Thou shalt not kill," then why not stealing? Are you as unalterably opposed to the death penalty as you are to stealing? If you say yes, then I can least admire your consistency of thought.

[Squatch]

36. Yes, I am. And the Bible is a wonderful standard "to go by"

at least for me. :toast:

I am opposed to all forms of killing and am against the death penalty.

[Terran]

37. Okay, cool. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. Your opposed to all forms of killing?

nothingshocksme (Post 19): Sometimes stealing is survival.

Squatch (Post 22): So? :shrug:

Apparently, the form of killing whereby property owners withhold life-saving property from those in need of it is A-OK with you, by your own admission.

[Squatch]

48. Wow, that's a considerable leap of logic.

Give me a break.

[alcibiades_mystery]

51. No, not really

You expressed indifference that some people would die if they did not steal, in your own words. Can those who have the material and means to save them and refuse to provide it be considered ethically responsible for a form of killing? You betcha. Of course, nobody likes to say this, cuz then we'd have to say our society is responsible for millions of death by poverty every year. better to pretend that we're god-like and proper in our enjoyment of our luxuries. We "earned" them, after all...:eyes:

[Squatch]

55. Do you consider fleeing the storm and

therefore not manning the store "refusal" to provide material and means to save lives?

[alcibiades_mystery]

121. If there are established means for this sort of thing

Then those should be the avenues of aid. When I talk about refusal, I'm talking about obstinate refusal where there is little risk to the refuser. The bottom line is that I value life over property, which I take to be a common value to us both. We have different ways of distributing these values, but I think we're probably both good people with common sense, and would do our best to save life, even if that meant sacrificing some property. We have no need to get drawn into hostilities over obvious points.

[bryant69]

20. What standards do you hold people too

I mean one answer is that this food is owned by greedy businessmen and therefore they need to lose it (sort of a communist approach). Another is putting yourself in the person's position ("my family is going hungry and I need food so i'll steal it") which cetainly does have an appeal.

on the other hand is it more noble to steal or more noble to find some other way to feed your family?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Terran]

32. I'm speaking theoretically.

I'm not referring to the market looting. Without knowing the facts, I'm fairly certain there's no justification for that.

Of course, it is more noble to feed your own family, but I can think of plenty of situations where that's a false dichotomy. If one's family is starving, taking the time to grow a crop or get a job and wait for a paycheck may not be an option. If one's family is starving, neither of those alternatives may even exist.

Also, I would never factor in the character of the person being stolen from; I wouldn't consider that a justifying factor, no matter who that person was. It's all on the person who steals.

[tx_dem41]

40. Let's make it more specific then.....

If someone broke into your house and stole food from your refrigerator....would you feel violated?

Because that is exactly what happened in the referenced story.

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. I don't think anyone is defending the specific acts here

What is more questionable is the universal claim that stealing is ALWAYS wrong.

Surely, we can come up with infinite specific examples that would call the universality of that claim into question?

The question throughout this thread is the viability of that claim as a universal claim, not a defense of the fuckwits grabbing Pop-Tarts from the Winn Dixie. ;-)

[Squatch]

49. OK...go for it.

Please come up with specific examples where stealing is not wrong.

[Terran]

89. That would be pointless in your case, Squatch

You've already indicated your stance is a hard-line Bibilical one, where there is no excuse for stealing because that's what the Commandment says.

Me, I think if a person steals a loaf of bread to feed his or her starving family, having no other alternative but to let them starve, that's an example where theft is okay. But that's just me.

[Squatch]

94. There's no excuse for stealing because it only creates more victims

It's Biblical principle I agree with.

The principle of giving 18 sheaves of wheat and a sheckle of sheep for a wedding is a little dated, tho. LOL.

On edit: I have no idea what a sheckle is and if sheep come in them.

[tx_dem41]

50. A_M.....theoretically, if someone takes something from you by entering....

your property and taking something without your permission, I would expect that you would feel violated. Doesn't that feeling affirm that something wrong occurred?

[Terran]

73. Honestly? No.

If someone went to the trouble of breaking into my home, which has some fairly valuable stuff in it, and all they did was raid my fridge, I would be forced to assume they really really needed some food and I'd be happy they got some. I can't deny it would be unsettling, having my house entered against my will, but "violated"? No.

The problem with your example is that I don't know all the facts of the situation. The only way to know if this theft was "wrong" is to ask the person who did it, not the person who was on the receiving end. The act belongs to the perpetrator. I could say it was wrong, but I couldn't really ever be sure.

[tx_dem41]

83. I wish I knew where you lived....because I'm hungry.

And it sounds like the fridge is stocked. ;)

[Terran]

91. Leggo my Eggo, thief!

:+

[theboss]

71. It's been, like, 8 hours since the hurricane hit

I really doubt mass starvation is a concern at this point.

[Terran]

81. Hello? Like I already said

I was speaking theoretically, not with regard to the NOLA looting incident.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. sometimes stealing is survival

[Squatch]

22. So?

:shrug:

[txaslftist]

25. Yeah...better to let your kid starve than sacrifice a principle.

He'll take your fine example into the afterlife.

[Squatch]

28. Baloney...after ONE DAY???

This is a case of some assholes, who are probably well fed and who can afford to buy food, using the cover of the storm to go on a crime wave.

Edited to change "OK" to "Baloney" for clarity.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. No, you said ALWAYS

Now you're bringing it back to this specific case. Perhaps in this specific case it is wrong, because it has only been one day, and nobody could be that desperate yet (it's not physically possible, even!). But you did say always, so you either defend that position or you do not. In some cases (existential quantifier), one might rather say that the regime of property which allows some people to let others starve is the wrong, while "stealing" is an apprpriate response (if we value life). In others, stealing would be "wrong." In others, the regime of property itself depends on a prior theft or expropriation that has been forgotten. These are complex ethical questions, to be sure. But it is a fudge to make a universal claim (stealing is ALWAYS wrong), then defend it by referring to a specific case (it's only been ONE DAY!). You either defend your universal claim or you do not.

One wonders, in any case, where Hugo got the character of Inspector Javert...:eyes:

[Squatch]

33. Yes, it is ALWAYS wrong.

And I did not, in any place in this thread, even come close to defending the stealing.

txaslftist: "Yeah...better to let your kid starve than sacrifice a principle."

Me: "OK...after ONE DAY???"

I can see where the confusion is. I should have said..."Bullshit...after one day???"

Clear?

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. I think you misunderstand my point

You can't defend a universal proposition (stealing is always wrong) by citing a specific case (after ONE DAY?). I never said that you defended the "theft." However, one can refute a universal proposition by citing a specific case (is it OK to steal if you're starving?), since all you need is ONE case to refute a universal claim. It's a logial point about argument. You have still yet to defend your universal proposition that stealing is ALWAYS wrong, though you seem intent on repeating it, as if that were reason enough to assent to it, or as if it were an obvious point that everybody should assent to immediately...

[Squatch]

39. OK...I hear you...thanks for the clarification.

[oasis]

45. The "assholes" are the Winn Dixie employees who fled to avoid the storm.

The people were forced to steal.

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. I hardly think I'm risking my life for a minimum wage Winn Dixie job

Winn Dixie is not an emergency food repository in any case, and the employees of Winn Dixie have no ethical compulsion to provide food services to those in need. That's utterly ridiculous.

[Squatch]

53. Agreed 100%

[oasis]

57. ""Utterly ridiculous". Yes. It's equally ridiculous to ask people to wait

at an empty check out stand in the midst of a natural disaster, as Squach suggested.

[Squatch]

52. Did you forget the sarcasm tag?

So, you expect somebody to man the store to shell out pop-tarts and juju bees during a life threatening storm?

They were forced to steal? LOL.

I'm more inclined to believe that these people use events like this as opportunities to engage in criminal activities because they know:

1) The owners are not present.
2) Law enforcement is unable to respond.

[oasis]

61. Brilliant observation. "These people" have a feast every hurricane season.

:eyes:

[Squatch]

65. Despite your inclusion of "rolling eyes" the fact remains that

in every community, there are people who will use events like this to prey on others. I'll bet dollars to donuts that's what's happening here.

[oasis]

67. "Prey on others". Did CNN report that the neighborhood was being looted?

[Squatch]

69. Don't know...did they?

I do know this:

Link

[oasis]

84. Winn Dixie is insured and was certain to be under 10 feet of water. They

were not being "preyed" upon.

[mondo joe]

98. My house is insured. Does that make it okay to come in and steal

my things?

[oasis]

104. Your house is not a super market about to be under 10 feet of water.

[mondo joe]

105. Then what does being insured have to do with it?

If a situation is such that theft is a legitimate action, the insurance status of the theft victim is not relevant.

Your post sounds more like rationalizing theft than forming a legitimate justification.

[oasis]

112. The people need the food now. Winn Dixie will be repaid by the insurance.

Goods that were taken would likely be damaged or destroyed by 10 feet of water.

Does that make sense?

[mondo joe]

117. So the people shouldn't even try to later pay for the food?

That's what insurance is for?

Yikes.

[oasis]

118. Maybe morally outraged citizens will form a posse and recover monies owed

to Winn Dixie.

They probably need to take a break from tilting at windmills.

[mondo joe]

119. Or maybe people could just try to pay for what they took.

But since it's easier to nurse some grudge against Winn Dixie rather than support personal responsibility, I don't expect you to support that line of thinking.

[oasis]

120. I've no grudge against Winn Dixie. My primary concern is for the people.

If I owned stock in Winn Dixie I would still be more concerned about people during a time of a major disaster.

But that's just me. :shrug:

[tx_dem41]

59. Ummm....you forgot the sarcasm tag.

Didn't you? Please, please tell me you forgot your danged sarcasm tag!

[oasis]

74. I was merely following the logic of the message on post #28.

[tx_dem41]

85. So you didn't....

Through moral gymnastics you have come up with another twisted sense of entitlement. Twisted.

[oasis]

96. Maybe the Minute Men can take time out from guarding our borders, get

down to New Orleans and make citizen's arrest.

[mondo joe]

93. Because they should have risked their lives in case anyone wanted

to go shopping?

Nice.

[Roxy66]

58. I agree..One Day?.....It sounds like people who would steal anyway

[theboss]

86. Who the fuck is starving now?

Wendys has probably only been closed for 12 hours.

5 Chicken nuggets for 99 cents.

There really should be no starvation in a country filled with dollar value menus.

Granted, you will die of a massive coronary event at age 19, but it's good eatin'.

[rinsd]

23. Sometimes....

...but a single day into major storm activity?

[slackmaster]

64. Reminds me of an episode of South Park

People started freaking out and talking about going cannibalistic when they'd been unable to get food for a few hours.

[bullwinkle428]

78. "Life imitates art" : I recall on the afternoon of 9/11, when there

was a line of 30-40 cars waiting to get into a gas station where the price had jumped to over $3/gallon...I was shocked that everyone had apprarently run out of gas at the same time.

[gollygee]

42. That puts you in stage 4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

[sundog]

75. yeah, the holier than thou stage

:P

[HEyHEY]

62. Not when there is a situation like this

They weren't letting people into the superdome without food. What choice is there?
Is there a cashier on duty? Fuck no, and I need food.

[sundog]

66. i guess you're speaking from all your experience with do or die situations

[Squatch]

70. Nothing has ever compelled me to create another victim.

[sundog]

80. you shall be raptured then

:thumbsup:

[Squatch]

82. WTF does that mean?

[sundog]

92. it means i'm getting bored with this

[Squatch]

97. Holier than thou, indeed.

:rofl:

[sundog]

107. well, at least you're keeping yourself entertained

[Binka]

111. Ah Quit Yer Belly Aching And Throw A Few Bucks DUs Way

You wanna piss and moan about opportunist why don't you donate to DU?

Just sayin'.

[sundog]

113. nice one

:P

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stray cat]

3. The place was trashed and the ATM machines stolen

It certainly wasn't just food that was stolen. It at least included looting and just plain theft. Probably professional theft more than poor people who were dying of hunger.

[katsy]

6. Sorry!

I just caught this latest clip and it was short. I didn't know it was more than food.

Thank you for clearing it up.

[stray cat]

9. They posted a picture on NBC and it was shocking

I would have thought the same thing as you if I hadn't seen the picture.

[Nikki Stone 1]

24. "Probably professional theft more than poor people " YES

I agree

[Carni]

110. That is quite a different thing

Needing food, water, or whatever in a crisis... is one thing the ATM machine etc is more like your typical thug type activity.

[tx_dem41]

4. Sarcasm?

Stealing/looting is wrong, still...right? Did I miss some new law that got passed?

[katsy]

13. I hadn't heard it was more than food.

Yes stealing is always wrong.

But I thought maybe some street people were trying to feed themselves or something. I'd have a hard time condemning that under these conditions.

I was wrong... it was more.

[tx_dem41]

7. Also, why do you stereotype poor people so negatively by assuming...

it was poor people that did it? Perhaps, you need to do some work on your progressive thinking.

[katsy]

14. I'm sorry.

You're right.

[CottonBear]

8. It'a not Daryl Kagan is it? Meanwhile...

Katrina rocks New Orleans, heads into Mississippi
29 Aug 2005 17:48:44 GMT

Source: Reuters

(Recasts, updates location, Category 2, adds Bush declaration)

By Rick Wilking

NEW ORLEANS, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Hurricane Katrina tore into Louisiana on Monday, although the massive storm appeared to spare low-lying New Orleans a feared deathblow and delivered much of its force to neighboring Mississippi and Alabama.

snip

The bowl-shaped city's levee system appeared to be holding off the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain on its edges. Officials said a breach occurred in nearby St. Bernard Parish, where Katrina's eye passed and extensive damage was expected.

About 150 people were reported stranded on rooftops in that southeastern Louisiana parish, where officials 8 to 10 feet (2.5 to 3 meters) of water swamped the region.

"We're getting reports that (more than 20) buildings are collapsing throughout the city," New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said, adding it remained unsafe at midday. "This city is under siege by Katrina."

more...
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N29181983.htm

[high density]

12. Kyra Phillips?

She always needs something to read off of the prompter or else she starts saying crazy things.

[Neecy]

17. Phillips is a rockhead.

It's a continual source of wonder just how unwatchable CNN has become.

I switched over to it briefly last night from TWC to see Aaron Brown proclaiming - full of doom 'n drama - to some expert, "So, on a scale of 1 to 10, this time tomorrow will we be saying, 'Oh, God. We've lost a city?!'" To which the "expert" replied: fifty-fifty.

Then this morning while flipping I saw glimpses of the horrible theatrics of Cooper, the freepish Kagan, and now Phillips. There isn't one person in the CNN lineup who doesn't turn my stomach in some fashion.

[katsy]

27. That's the one.

She was just snippy about it.

[KeepItReal]

43. Wrong post...

<eom>

[Nikki Stone 1]

21. 70% of the goddamned city is under water, and CNN cares about looting?

Misplaced air time....

[sundog]

26. do you blame them?

the poor have been stolen from their whole lives...

what does a cnn anchor know about poverty?

[katsy]

35. No.

I imagined some unfortunate who got caught in a disaster and was trying to survive or something. I was only listening, not watching the tube and don't advocate theft or looting.

In my defense of the undefensable and wholly imagined scenario on my part... if I were caught in dire circumstances during a hurricane and had to feed my kids, I'd steal food and gladly pay the price. Even if it were my own fault being unprepared... I'd feed myself and my family.

I think if people have to resort to stealing food even in the best of weather... we better start examining our morals as a nation.

[sundog]

60. i always have to examine things...

through the eyes of the poor...

if those people are still in the city to begin with, chances are they didn't have to finances to drive out...

that was my gut assumption & with that in mind, i hardly give a crap if they are taking crumbs from a company that has more than adequate insurance policies to cover its losses (especially if the food is means of survival)...

the wealthy rob everyday, the poor are stolen from...

[theboss]

76. You know, when I was pretty young, I was really poor

And it never occurred to anyone to steal.

And I really doubt that looters take the the time to consider corporate accounting before they steal.

[sundog]

90. let's just say i have more empathy for looters than a corporation

i also have been poor & did not steal, so that we share

[theboss]

102. I have less empathy

I have no expectations for corporations.

I expect people to behave themselves.

[sundog]

106. so people should behave themselves while corporations misbehave?

[mondo joe]

108. I don't know why having things stolen from you makes it ok to steal

from others.

I also don't know that being poor MEANS you've been stolen from your whole life.

[Catherine Vincent]

29. Well I did see an atm machine bashed in.

I think those looters planned this. They were not starving.

[-..__...]

31. Winn Dixie should have put some signs up.

[enid602]

41. NOLA

I just thank God that the 50K (or however many) NOLA residents in the Superdome have been spared. Concentrating so many poor people in one place in the path of such a hurricane was a bad move, especially when (given availability of municipal, school and Greyhound buses) they could have been successfully evacuated. Had the 'Dome not survived, we would be in a period of national mourning that would make 9/11 seem insignificant. I hope city, state and national planners will come up with a plan so this kind of potential tragedy is never again even considered.

[tx_dem41]

63. The Dome did fine. Some foam blew off of it....

If you look outside the Dome, homes didn't fare as well. Perhaps many lives were saved. In fact, I'm thinking they were.

[enid602]

Superdome

Sure, because the storm, at the last minute lost intensity, and veered 65 miles east of NO. Had it proceeded with full intensity toward the center of NO, the Superdome would be toast. Better to bus people to several remote locations than make them sitting ducks in the hurricane's path.

[tx_dem41]

87. Are you an architect or an engineer? Have you been to the Superdome?

Help me out....on what do you base this assertion?


Your method would have left thousands with no shelter at all. Brilliant.

[enid602]

109. neither

Neither. They said on TV that the dome was designed to sustain winds of 200 mph, and they mentioned that the storm (as a category 5) could have produced winds in excess of 200 mph.

[enid602]

72. Superdome

Sure, because the storm, at the last minute lost intensity, and veered 65 miles east of NO. Had it proceeded with full intensity toward the center of NO, the Superdome would be toast. Better to bus people to several remote locations than make them sitting ducks in the hurricane's path.

[Roxy66]

54. Stealing is not on my list of Moral Values...give the Red Cross time to

get set up and food out

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. I Used To Have This Conversation With Police Friends

What if a guy is stealing because he has a hungry baby?


Here's my take...


In that situation I'd give the guy a pass but if you have the money to pay for it's stealing....

[Roxy66]

77. Agreed ...good example

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. All These People Saying Winn Dixie Can Afford It Maybe They Can't

I am sure the looting won't "kill" them but they are already in federal bankruptcy protection...

[oasis]

115. It's always better for food to be eaten than destoyed by a flood. That's

what I'm saying. The people didn't create "Katrina" just to get a free meal.

[Carni]

101. I don't have a problem with looting of FOOD or essential health supplies

Other items absolutely/that would be wrong IMO.

Let me tell you if I could have *looted* ice during that power outage two years ago I would have been damned tempted.

You couldn't buy, beg, borrow or steal ice and we burned all of our gas driving around trying to find some (something else that wasn't available --nor were ATM machines)

If people are taking other things (other than food) then I would agree it's very wrong but people get panicked in situations of desperation and chaos.

I cannot judge them because I am not living through that particular nightmare!

[Moderator]

122. Locked.

This one has run its course and has had its share of civility problems. Seems a good time to lock.
Thanks for your understanding.