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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:04 PM
Original message
Why do the left and right live in parallel universes?
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 05:06 PM by Armstead
I was listening to Hannity's show today while driving around town. I know, I know....But I forgot my Mp3 player and that was the only talk show on the local radio.

Anyway, what struck me was how the Hannity crowd and those of us on the Air America side (sorry for the stereotypes) are like parallel universes.

We here say things like "The War in Iraq is going much worse that we know, but the Mainstream media are hiding the truth." Hannity and his callers were saying today "The War in Iraq is going much better than we realize, but the media arehiding the truth."

Hannity and his callers were complaining that the media was deliberatly burying news of the pro-Bush rallies this weekend and playing up Cindy Sheehan's side to discredit Bush...We here say the same thing in reverse.

Hannity had on participants and military families on who were talking about the weekend. They were going on and on about how mean and hateful Cindy Sheehan and her supporters were behaving. How the pro-Bush people were so thoughtful and respectful.....Listening to Rani Rhodes when I got home, callers were saying the mirror image of that about the Camp casey people.

It's that way about so many things. It's like the Opposite Game, or the old Bizarro Universe from Superman.


How can people who grew up in the same society under the same conditions have perceptions that are so different that they are like parallel universes, in which black in one universe is white in the other?

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes. When experts can study the same facts and conclude
(a) there is a God
(b) there is no God
(c) the facts are inconclusive,

then there may be three different universes.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. We're All Being Played For Suckers
That's my take.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:08 PM
Original message
Or the old Star Trek....
...Yeah-but his face is black on the LEFT side!
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spaniard Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, sure... think of it in Pre-Crisis DC comics terms
There was Earth 1 - present day
Earth 2 - "Golden Age"

..but then there was Earth Prime - where regular folks lived
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. the left is right and the right is wrong
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Ah, there you have it!!!
"How can people who grew up in the same society under the same conditions have perceptions that are so different that they are like parallel universes, in which black in one universe is white in the other?"

Perception is reality. Perceptions are based on experiences and beliefs. The Right's perceptions are different from the Left's so the reality is different!

Forget trying to reason with the Right--they have different laws of physics and logic in their reality.

Concentrate on the Independents and Moderates who can perceive both universes.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. I just find it puzzling how the views are so oppositely aligned
The same media reports we see as kowtowing to Bush and the GOP they see as anti-Bush and pro-liberal.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. Have you ever been able to compare facts with a thuglican?
I wonder if you can't compare notes how are we supposed to determine who is right.

When nobodies right then is everyone wrong? Which side are you on? The right side or the wrong side…

You think this happens with the same set of facts…
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. Parallel but unequal
One shades and shapes the truth and the other wishes it to be uncovered and judged on it's own merits. I think parallel is not an accurate term for the disparate realities.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Perpendicular? Orthogonal?
Anyway, I like your succinct description of the difference...
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. They'd say the same thing
...in reverse, of course. }(
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. I have a theory on that.
It has to do with evolutionary branches that are still growing and thriving and evolutionary branches that are no longer growing, yet are still alive.

Perhaps they can be called Evolutionary Shadows. The bitter remnants cast upon the wall when the light no longer reaches them.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Check it out:

“Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.” Douglas Adams

Human History, a correction of Conservative Revisionism

Contrary to the opinions of some Conservative scholars who see the rise of Conservatism and Liberalism as a result of the invention of beer and the wheel, the division of humanity into two distinct political groups actually began about 400,000 years earlier with the discovery of fire. While beer, and the wheel used to fetch it back to the cave, is an important development it is, in reality, only a result of the conquest of fire and the societal changes wrought by it.

Prior to the discovery and harnessing of fire proto-humanoids were almost exclusively herbivores. The presence of salmonella tended to discourage the consumption of raw meat, so virtually every waking moment was taken up in gathering nuts and berries. Besides, the beasts that would someday provide us with Steak Diane and Baby Back Ribs could be pretty hard on someone without even a pointy stick, an invention which would come much later.

With the discovery of fire two things happened. First, diet could change to a more protein oriented cuisine giving them time to do more than gather food and second, waking time could be extended by the use of fire for light after sunset. These two factors gave rise to the separation of Homo Erectus into the two political groups mentioned above.

Once mankind had time to do more than hunt for food, he began to exercise an organ not previously used much, and in many cases is still sadly underutilized: the brain. While one group would use the brain to consider their surroundings discovering cause and effect, developing logic and a host of other epistemological devices the other group tended to use the time squatting in the dirt making drawings and painting on cave walls, an evolutionary stage many children still go through as they mature. One of the great philosophical debates raging today is over which came first, the Crayon or the wall.

The former group contributed much to the good of the clan by implementing such things as sharp pointy sticks with which to hunt, medium rare steaks, and the outdoor barbecue. The latter tended to continue squatting in the dirt, painting scenes on cave walls and using the tools invented by the former. Thus was born Liberalism with the capability of rational thought and ability to change to meet new situations and Conservatism which simply wanted to remain the same. If it was good enough for Ugg, it was good enough for them. Indeed, the Conservative movement continues to gather nuts to this day. Witness Allen Keyes.

Another very important aspect of the discovery of fire was the still. With this wonderful device, developed by Liberals, the ability to distill spirits much finer than the Meade and beer produced by the Conservatives, Liberals took a great leap forward in recreational drugs. Eventually these wonderful inventions gave rise to single malt whiskey, an invention which singularly prevented the Irish from ruling the world.

With the passing of time the two groups developed along increasingly divergent lines. Liberals continued to evolve using logic and reason placing great store in innovation and continued societal development with villages and cities, a trend that continues today with liberals concentrated in the cultural centers and conservative in the hinterlands as shown by the red state/blue state maps. Conservatives continued to evolve at a much slower pace, due largely to their aversion to change and remoteness from culture, developing a very strong sense of egocentricity leading to an "I've got mine and I don't care about anyone else" philosophy. This is a strange development because in many cases that which they have is taken from them without their knowing it. A case in point would be a $600 income tax refund which was replaced by a $1200 property tax increase because No Child Left Behind was under-funded. Physical evidence of arrested evolution can be seen in their excessively heavy bone structure evidenced by the oft repeated phrase “can you get this trough your thick skull?“ Further evidence of Conservative Evolutionary Syndrome is their lack of language skills making it impossible for them to communicate without being abusive and calling names. However, Conservatives have continued to develop the cave painting into other forms of media giving rise to the Wall Street Journal, Fox News and talk radio, all used to bemoan the Liberal Media at increasing volume; a curious symptom in itself: equating volume and/or repetition with truth.

So it was that Liberals using their superior intellect developed such things as government of the clan by the clan and for the clan, business models using incorporation & limited liability partnerships and a judicial system to protect the clan from it's own members while Conservatives developed an increasing loud and vociferous media presence used to rant and rail against all Liberal inventions except the business models which they somehow have come to believe were their own devices. In fact, one of the latest developments in Conservatism is the ability to pick and choose what to accept as reality.

The evolution of Conservatism to it's current level has allowed practicing members to construct their own separate universe devoid of rational thought and logic, hence the tendency for some of them to prattle on about liberal women having more testosterone than liberal men. This is demonstrably incorrect. Just compare the Dixie Chicks to Ann Coulter. The evidence of this strange capacity to suspend reality can be found abundantly on the Internet, a truly wonderful Liberal development, contained in emails such as those blaming Liberals for all of the ills brought on by Conservatives. Further, this unique ability to selectively filter facts and evidence allows them to vote against their own self interest, engendering the headline in the UK Daily Mirror, "How can 59,054, 087 people be so DUMB?"

So it is that Liberals have used their superior thought processes to generate new and exciting industries providing the Conservatives with a place to work, sidewalks to drag their knuckles on, backyards to barbecue in and new electronic media with which to bitch about Liberals while Conservatives have done little over the eons other than bitch about Liberals.

As a Liberal I must admit that in this case we have not acted in our own best interests. By providing Conservatives with retirement, health care, unemployment benefits and the ability to live a comfortable life while they act against their own self interests by electing Republicans who will deceive them, send their children off to war, and take their freedoms we have removed the evolutionary pressure of stupidity and allowed them to proliferate. This is, as history has proven, a self correcting situation .

Lest one believe that Liberals are devoid of any sense of history, let me point out our fondness for aged wine and whisky. While our use of fire has produced such dishes as Chateau Briand for two with mushrooms and burgundy sauce or Grilled Chilean Sea Bass with Salsa Verde we still harken back to the days before fire when we ate raw fish. Conservatives look on Sushi with some disdain perhaps because they order cake for desert -- cake batter is singularly unappetizing when served on nori with wasabi. Sushi chefs don’t cook, okay?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. And post 666 no less.
Douglas Adams stole my theory! :grr:


:rofl:


That's pretty much my theory with the exception of his take on incorporation. A most excellent reply. :toast:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Devilishly clever
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. OMG! 666? I didn't plan that! nt
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. Fortunately, I was able to listen to Randi.
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 05:18 PM by Cleita
She said the same thing about the day she spent in Crawford. She spoke of the peace and love in Camp Casey and the violence and hatred that emitted from the other Fort Qualis side of the road.

She said she even tried to interview a few of them and they were so irrational and mean she realized there was no point in even trying.
I too, never used to divide people by their politics, but I am beginning to realize that all the mean, violent, selfish people in this country are conservatives.

I hope they find some states they can set up their quasi-religious, mean-spirited, family values utopia and secede into their own country. This time we should let them go. They are pretty much the same people in spirit who wanted to secede the last time.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. The only way to get political consensus is through fear and intimidation.
What was it, 90% approval for bush the day after 9/11?
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Tyranny_R_US Donating Member (988 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. We're not the ones living in another universe
:lmao:
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. Difference in the reliance on sources of information.
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 05:19 PM by Ready4Change
And I don't just mean which sources you rely on. I mean WHETHER you rely on those source at all.

(edited to remove a lot of uneeded blather on my part.)
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. I think that...
... the Left, at its worst, is kinda dumb in a sweet, gullible sort of way.
I think the Right, at its worst, is maniacal liars, killers and thieves bent on committing ongoing acts of horror and destruction to fill their own pockets and control everyone and everything.

There's your parallel universes...
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. The Bizarro version of that is...
the Right, at its worst too caring and principled, while the left are maniacally determined to push their anti-American anti-religious socialism and hate.

Check out Conservative Underground. Variations of this will probably show up there.
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Bingo!
I call them the Upside-Down People!
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. When a child sees a homeless person and the parent calls
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 05:24 PM by Solly Mack
that homeless person "nasty, bad and lazy" and tells the child "walk fast and don't look" - you're apt to get a right winger one day

But when the parents acknowledging the human being in front of them speaks a friendly "Hello" and even dips into the pocket for what they can give - and later talks to the child about how we should treat people...then you're apt to get a Liberal one day


If you install fear and loathing at a young age, a child will carry that fear and loathing into adulthood and it will color every perception and belief they have...unless something happens to break the cycle.


The ignorance that you see among many is actually learned - and that's what makes it so hard to overcome - they learn to be ignorant.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I could goive you the right wing counter to that...
It's be something like the conservatiuve parent would explain to their child how the homeless person is an example of why it is important to learn to be self reliant, while the liberal parent would tell the child that it's society's fault that he is homeless...


But I won't. :)
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. and that's exactly my point - the "reasons" given plant the perception
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 06:05 PM by Solly Mack
Explaining the cycle of poverty (society's role) acknowledges the gray areas

While blaming it on lack of gumption and being lazy ( learn to be self-reliant-implication being the person didn't and it's their own fault) is cut and dried/black and white...and never once touches on the other factors.

:)

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mark11727 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I developed a theory a few years ago...
For Liberals, the only thing wrong with America was not enough people cared to help one another.

For Conservatives, the only thing wrong with America was Liberals.


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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. pithy
and it does say a lot
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Read Roger C. Shank
Tell Me a Story: Narrative and Intelligence (Rethinking Theory)

Excerpts:

"The key point here is that once we find a belief and connected story, no further processing, no search for other beliefs need be done. We rarely look to understand a story in more than one way." (p.73)


"An incident is remembered in terms of how it is seen in the first place. That is, labeling is in many respects an arbitrary process. ...And, of course, even that last categorization is arbitrary since one person might characterize the victim as being blond, while the other might characterise him as being fat." (P.222)


"We would like to imagine that we learn from the stories of others, but we really only do so when the stories we hear relate to beliefs that we feel rather unsure of, ones that we are flirting with at the moment, so to speak. When we are wondering, consciously or unconsciously, about the truth, about how to act or understand some aspect of the world, then the evidence provided by others can be of some use." (P.78)


"A good memory, then means an attentive labeling facility during processing or you aren't going to remember what you don't find interesting, so the more that interests you the better memory you are likely to have." (P.223-224)

"Yet what we learn is still entirely up to us. No one teaches us how to index after all. We make up our own way of seeing the world,..." (P.113)

"Knowing a great deal about a subject means being able to detect differences that will reflect themselves in differences in indexing. In other words, intelligence depends on clever indexing. Our expert is intelligent about military history. He sees nuances where others would not. He analyzes new stories well enough to be able to relate them to old stories that might not obviously be the same." (P.113)
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't see why we aren't pushing for revival of the Fairness Doctrine.
You'd think there would be broad support for it. Also, how about passing a Transparency in Government Act and a Objective Journalism Act, while we're at it.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
24. WARNING: May Cause Psycotic Episodes
My advice is: don't try to understand them, I tried during Impeacment and it may have caused some permanent damage. It is unproductive unless it is a study in their tactics. (They can change, they are not hopeless, witness George Wallace and Robert Byrd, but it is an inner catharsis that transforms them into decent human beings.)

People in the mushy middle however, not ideologs, are worth trying to understand. They will follow, but they "demand" strong leadership. To us (independant thinkers) strength is considered standing up for what you belive in. To many (good and decent) people strength is "unity". The right wing ideologs understand this very well and manipulate the middle. They make good and honest people hate us because we are destroying the unity that makes them feel safe (ie. the anti-war protesters, but also anyone that the far right can accuse of dissent).

I belive, with all my heart that if we (independant thinkers) could manage to coalesce around a single issue it would project the enormous strength of our ideas into the minds of the less politcal involved Americans. Face it, they are scared. They should be. I am.

Fire Rummy, hire Wesley! should be our battle cry. To bravely send in one of our best and brightest to confront this uholy Juggernaut that is the White House would require the utmost courage. My bet is that Wesley wouldn't flinch. He would Make Us Proud.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1733781
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Except if independent thinkers coalesced....
...they wouldn't be independent thinkers anymore, by definition.

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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. If they independently came to the same truth they would n/t
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
25. It is hard to know what is true.
Most say Iraq is bad but it may be where I read. The blog out of Iraq are really interesting. But I only find this good said. That the people are free to do and say what they want now in some places only. Looks like a lot killed and bombed for very little good to me. I still can not figure out just what they wanted to do in Iraq as it is such a mess.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
34. kicking EOM
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rfrrfrrfr Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Its not that we live in parrallel universes.
It's that the right lies and twists the truth or just makes stuff up out of thin air to back up their opinions. You can't count the number of times Rush, Hannity or any other conservative pundit just spouted of someting totally fictional and without merit.

The left on the other hand mostly relies on facts,and logical analysis. Thats not to say that there are those on the left that won't twist the facts to suit their purposes, But you can literally count the number of times people like. Rhandie Rhodes, Al Franken, Jon Stewart, Sam Seeder etc get their facts wrong on one hand. Now we may not always agree with the conclusions they draw from those facts, but we don't dispute the facts themselves.

The right lives in a cocoon of propaganda,lies and misinformation all calculated to keep people ignorant and pliable to whatever those in power want to do. Is it any wonder that what they say and think is so opposite from what we say and think?
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
36. Because people forgot how to independently evaluate news sources.
They don't know how to look for independent verification of facts.

They haven't a clue about conflicts of interest, and why it's important in assessing the source of information for bias.

They haven't a clue how few corporations control most of their information (mainstream media) as we call it.

Until this basic skill is back in most of the population, which would hinge on a functioning education system, I don't see much hope for the population getting good service from the government.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. they HAVE TO and it's also why they (rush clones) get paid the BIG bucks
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 09:34 PM by bpilgrim

http://media.globalfreepress.com

it sure ain't cheap or easy perpetrating such a massive fraud 24/7/365 :evilgrin:

peace
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