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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:13 AM
Original message
Where are the Democrats?
Perhaps it's just due to my personal boycott of the MSM, but I have not witnessed any kind of reasonable (or coordinated) effort by the Democratic Party to take advantage of the political climate in the country.

1. A majority of Americans think the Iraq War was a mistake, endangers America, and was started on deception. Where are the Democrats? Are they too busy listening to the DLC to look at the amazing number of polls that tell them that most Americans are practically begging for some kind of alternative in Washington? Have they HEARD of Paul Hackett?

2. Bush is STILL on vacation. Even after Katrina plunders his precious red states, he snoozes, Cheney mumbles and dozes, and Rumsfeld is doing God-knows-what, probably planning airstrikes on Iran. Where are the Democrats? Is it below them to criticize the record-breaking Vacationer In Chief? Is it below them to demand some semblance of leadership, or even a goddamn pulse, from our Executive?

3. With the protest by Cindy Sheehan and others at Camp Casey leading the charge, this is perhaps the most opportune time since Vietnam to neutralize one of the most effective language weapons of the Right. "Support the Troops" has meant "Send Troops to Get Killed and Maimed for Questionable Reasons and Then Come Home to Laughable Vet Benefits" when shamelessly wielded in the hands of people like Nixon, Reagan, and Bush. The Democrats can make this weapon their own, and have it ring true, if they act now. When the Democrats say it, they still sound like sheepish political cowards appearing to ask, "Is it OK if I say that?" How about something like, "It's time the President supports our troops by establishing an exit strategy and caring for them and their families mentally, physically, and financially when they return home." The Army Times has even previously criticized Bush. Are the Democrats listening? Have they heard of the Iraq Veterans Against the War? Are they aware of the large number of troops that oppose the war?

Am I wrong, or are the Democrats sitting this one out and allowing Karl Rove to rebuild his Party's support for 2006 unchallenged?
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Arkansas Democrat Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have been wondering
the same thing!
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Tesla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. WAKE UP ! YOU VACATIONING SENATORS AND REPRESENATIVES
SHOW AMERICA WE CARE AND ALSO HAVE SOMETHING TO SHOUT ABOUT!!!
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. Nominated-indeed, where the hell are they? nt
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Great post- nominated
The little slime balls on our side like their little vacations and don't seem to do much when they are supposedly working. We have some major problems with our leaders who don't represent us, save a few.
They should be shouting from the rooftops and challenging the emperor and his minions. Time for a change! Calling the Doctor (Dean).
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. I thought Bush had them taken to Mars.
Except Joe Biden.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. Iraq: The Democrats Are Just as Bad

Iraq: The Democrats Are
Just As Bad


by Justin Raimondo

Terry Michael, the founder-director of the Washington Center for Politics and Journalism, bemoans the "nondebate" over the Iraq war that takes place in the "mainstream" media:

"The most influential interpreters of our public affairs are accepting, rather than expanding, a noose-tight frame the Washington political culture is enforcing to limit permissible discourse on the war in Iraq…. Look at almost any major daily op-ed page, watch the Sunday shows or listen to nightly cable-babble. See how seldom you encounter voices against the war permitted to argue we should just end it, not try to mend it."

As former press secretary for the Democratic National Committee, however, Michael ought to be fully aware of just how and why this sad state of affairs persists even as the rationale for our continued presence in Iraq collapses. The reason is because practically everything is presented and discussed in partisan terms, i.e., in terms of the never-ending conflict between Democrats and Republicans, and the reality is that the Democrats are just as hawkish – albeit in a "multilateralist" way – as the GOP. In a perceptive piece published in The Nation, Ari Berman described the views of "the strategic class" that dominates the Democratic party's foreign policy councils:

"At a time when the American people are turning against the Iraq War and favor a withdrawal of U.S. troops, and British and American leaders are publicly discussing a partial pullback, the leading Democratic presidential candidates for '08 are unapologetic war hawks. Nearly 60 percent of Americans now oppose the war, according to recent polling. Sixty-three percent want U.S. troops brought home within the next year. Yet a recent National Journal 'insiders poll' found that a similar margin of Democratic members of Congress reject setting any timetable. The possibility that America's military presence in Iraq may be doing more harm than good is considered beyond the pale of 'sophisticated' debate."

The war-hawk mentality of these "national security Democrats" trickles down the "pyramid" of power from the apex, where party leaders like Senators Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton dwell. The former criticizes the administration's war policy from the right, and the latter has a bill in the hopper increasing the size of the army by 80,000 soldiers. On the second level, we have former government officials like Richard Holbrooke, one of the main architects of Bill Clinton's Kosovo adventure. Holbrooke, a key adviser to John Kerry, was instrumental in blocking any hints of antiwar sentiment from coming out of the Democratic side during the last presidential election. As Berman points out:

"Nine days before the election, Holbrooke addressed the American Israel Public Affairs Committee and reiterated Kerry's support for the war and occupation, belittled European negotiations with Iran on its nuclear program and endorsed the Israeli separation wall. 'Hardly a Dove Among Dems' Brain Trusters,' read a headline from the Forward newspaper."

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=7097


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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. What, you expect these corporate whores to rise up
And actually take their corporate masters to task?:rofl:
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. seems like there are more rethug moles than legit dems anymore
Edited on Tue Aug-30-05 08:31 AM by wli
Conyers, McKinney, and the rest of the handful of usual suspects seem to be the only ones even attempting to work in the people's interests.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. They're Scare Shitless
The Rovian nature of today's politics have turned many national Democrats into pink tutus...worried about getting trashed by the corporate media and slimed by the Rove machine if they attempt to show any balls.

That said, I think this village has to burn more before anything is going to be done and someone step forward. Sadly, there's still a lot of people, who may not like meeester boosh, are still not finding a Democrat or Independent to turn to.

I've long said for the major Democrats to stay out of Camp Casey. I didn't like Sharpton's grandstanding there and want this to remain a purely grassroot operation. It's done wonders in helping bring a lot of us together and I'd hate to see an opportunist politician (and yes, Democrats have them as well) take advantage of this truly populist movement...a movement I think that will soon dictate to the party, not the other way around.

Now when Cindy gets to Washington, then she's on their turf and I'll be taking notice of who comes out and doesn't to support Ms. Sheehan and Progressive causes.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Agreed ...
Edited on Tue Aug-30-05 08:42 AM by Ian_rd
"I didn't like Sharpton's grandstanding there and want this to remain a purely grassroot operation."

I was extremely disappointed when the usual suspects showed up at Camp Casey. Without them, it appeared to Americans (Right and Left) as a genuine uprising of everyday citizens. After Sharpton, Code Pink, Joan Baez, and others (for whom I have no beef whatsoever, and love Code Pink) arrived, it just looks like another PR show put on by the leftist establishment, and consequently, extremely easy to spin it as such by the Right-wing Media.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I Won't Go That Far
Code Pink was there from Day One...without them Cindy wouldn't have made it without them. I was glad to see Joan Baez as well as she stood as a hero to me for her civil disobedience during Vietnam. Even if Michael Moore had shown (and I'm glad he didn't), I'd welcome his support as these people walk the walk.

The corporate media was and do spin anything without any regard for the truth. Listen to how they tie George Soros into this and I haven't seen anything from him in this matter. But I'm also suspect of individuals and groups who want to use Cindy's simple question/message and turn it into something else...one thing at a time. The focus has to be to get the questions answered and some accountability about this war/invasion.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. I think it would have remained much more effective ...
... if Camp Casey remained occupied by military families and their supporters and not contaminated by public figures, perhaps well-meaning, who appear to show up and say "Look at me, America, I'm grieving with Cindy Sheehan!"

I wasn't aware that Code Pink had been there the whole time, and I give them props for that.

But if I start seeing protestors out there holding signs that read "Meat is Murder," and "Save ANWR", I'll be mourning the death of a promising peace movement.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. That's My Concern About The DC March
So many groups with so many different bitches...while some are truly valid, there's a time and place. Right now the one issue Democratic Party can gain support from this movement is to quietly encourage it to grow and keep out of the way.

There's always going to be those who see this type of story as an opportunity to get their face out there or promote their cause and I stand with you in mourning the death of this great opportunity...but I don't think that's going to happen. The anti-war sentiment in this country grows and only those who stay on that theme will get any real attention and respect.

Cheers...
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DemonFighterLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
28. I fail to see how Sharpton was grandstanding
or how it hurts this cause. At some time this message will need to expand beyond Cindy. Not to take anything away from her, but she needs people to stand up for what is right.
The media and righties may have tried to destroy the effort, but their bullshit will continue no matter who enters the fray.
Now that it is moving to Washington, there is no excuse for Hillary and Kerry and Kennedy to get on board and start asking real questions. Dubby has been given the benefit of the doubt for way too long.
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. You're right, I don't think Sharpton hurt the cause
The movement has been given so much energy by Cindy and the other military families, that, in my opinion, we will see a large snowball effect. The majority of American are against the war, and that will be what carries this through.

I don't think we have to worry about it being brought down.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
49. we protest with the protesters who SHOW UP, not the ones we wished had
Listen to this short clip of AS at CC speaking TRUTH to POWER...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/cindy/al_sharpton-camp_casey-aar-.mp3

and at the 2004 convention
http://news.globalfreepress.com/mp3/al_sharpton.mp3

psst... pass the word, the DLC are USELESS ;->

:hi:

peace
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. Only one I can think of is Jesse Jackson. He's demanding that Bush
speak up about Pat Robertson and hold him accountable for calling for the assassination of President Chavez.

Still, Bush remains cowardly silent about his pal, Robertson.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. Shorter version of your concept
Support our troops: bring them home.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
14. This is a tough one. I'm the first in line to criticize Dems... but it is
a difficult call.

I told you so:
It's never wise to say I told you so when you are a public figure because of the juvenile aspects, but Dems can't say it for split reasons. If they voted to 'give Bush authority' they don't qualify to say it. If they voted against giving Bush authority, they still risk votes and sound juvenile.

Shout the low numbers of support:
They can't use Bush's low numbers, because all of Congress supposedly has equally low numbers.

Contrasts:
They can't keep pointing out the differences between the progress in the Clinton admin vs the regressiveness of the Bush admin in part because of the hate raised by those who think they still hate Clinton. They could frame it Dems-Repubs instead of Clinton-Bush. But, it seems that they do pick certain subjects to contrast, but what they pick and the way they say it seems mundane and boring compared to what we know is going on today. In other words, they don't talk about the things that are eating us up - prisoners, prisoner treatment, prisoners without representations, Iraqis living without loved one, Iraqis sick, Iraqis living without basics, Iraqis dreading their theocracy, pending civil war, no exit strategy for the boondoggle catastrophe that descended on the Iraqis by corporations with the help of politicians and the military who have been partners with the corporations, unmitigated support for Sharon, traitors in our government, infighting of the agencies that are supposed to protect us, broken environmental and nuclear treaties, bully demands on any country that tries to do anything against our approval, threats to Venezuela, specifically to their duly elected President (more democratic than others), orders coming from reverends, growing knowledge of the PNAC agenda.

They can only pick a couple of these to speak out about. Most who speak sound like they are running for President - they carefully select their positions and words and it's a wash. Then there is Sen Biden who must have offices at the networks and who sides with the admin Sunday after Sunday most of the time. We need to find out if he is speaking for himself or under authority of the DLC or DNC.

Media:
If one of our leaders does or says something great, you can be assured that the media will ignore them.

If one of our leaders goes to visit the Sheehan group they risk being seen as taking advantage of the camera. If they go to honor those who gather, they show guts, but may not want the media.

They are definitely lagging behind what is being revealed and discussed on the internet. Sometimes listening to them is like reading an old paper.

Their caution may cause us to say after the crash or takeover by PNAC and/or a foreign power - too little, too late. Voices too wimpy, too weany.

Maybe the people should just acknowledge their dilemma and do it ourselves - i.e., educate in rallies and protests and pay more attention to what the ACLU and PFAW (People for the American Way) do which has emphasis on the law. We have to know more about organizations (Moveon, etc,) that are very active on the political side because some of us have only one tool for the time we have to spend - that is knowledge to educate others.

I will never forgive the Dems for accepting theft of our vote. Conyers and others who fight as hard as he does are the exceptions to the umbrella word Dems.

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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. Why can't at least some Dems say they authorized war only bec.
like us, they were lied to?

Also, I would not be so optimistic as to assume that Cheney's dozing.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. YES!
You took the words out my mouth. During the 2004 campaign, I kept wishing Kerry would kill the "flip-flop" label by saying that he voted to give Bush authorization to invade Iraq because like the rest of America, he was lied to by Bush and believed the case for war.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
17. It is not that they are 'afraid' or that it is something to do with Rove..
it is because our Dem in office are ON THEIR SIDE. Not all of them - just most of them.

Look at their voting records. Every Republican is in total lock step with their party. Our Democrats? Their voting record is more skewed toward the Republican side.

If this scenario was reversed (Dem controlled everything) these Republicans would be fighting tooth and nail on every fucking issue. Fight - fight - fight. On the other hand, our wimpy Dems are rolling and are playing dead. Oh they appear to fight once in a while, but it is a farce.

Why - you may ask? Because they all have been bought and paid for. They all belong to the club. Like Kerry and his secret Club he shares membership with Bush. What a fucking joke. Clinton - the same except he did do a few things to help us. Like all the Dems who voted for the Bankruptcy bill. Voting for the illegal war - let me tell you - they all knew what was going on.

The truth is that our government has been against the citizenship since about 1950. The time when presidents do good for citizens and country ended that day when Kennedy was murdered. Who did that I wonder*.

We are on our own people. We cannot even trust our own Dems. Some Dems yes - the real measure of if they are Dems is to look at their voting record. It must be totally in lock step with the Dem principals otherwise they are against us. Why are no Dems supporting Cindy? Because they are not on our side.

Our country is almost totally a toxic dumping ground of poisons run by crooks and murderers who are robbing our treasury blind and totally fucking us over. Our country will die unless we do something about it. And, you may ask, well the politicians live here too - they do, but not like us and they have villas all over the world I am sure bought with our tax money or bribe money.

Are we going to let our government do what THEY want or do what WE want? (Example: would you vote for more mercury in are land air and food?)

By the way, it is our country first, before it is the governments' country.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Posts like these ...
... are why I spend time on the Underground and not on the official DNC site. I believe, like you, that there are serious identity problems with the Democratic Party.

The Republican Party believes that empowering the rich and corporations, a gung-ho military footing, and shredding environmental and social protections are good for the country and have convinced their voters of the same.

The Dem politicos tend to voice the opposite, but then vote like a Republican. So, how easy is it to say they have no values? Damn easy .. because it's frequently true.

You can't fight for everyday Americans when you're owned by Phizer, AT&T and Bank of America.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
19. Democrats are 'out to lunch' and WE ARE THE ONES THAT NEED......
to change that!!!!!!!!
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. And we're the lunch.
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Done Donating Member (680 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. Hal-a-freakin-lu-ya
You would think one of those bozos would see the opportunity to emerge as the leader of the democratic party.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. The lazy-ass democrats are vacationing too.
There is no loyal opposition in this nation.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
24. counting their money
and taking advice from Al From.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
25. I forgot about them
It's easy to.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
26. I thought the Dems were "letting the Repukes hang themselves"
when I first started to notice their lack of muscle on this issue. Others on the forums I visited at the time confirmed this suspicion so I figured, they must be just "watching and waiting".

Now I think they are sitting there watching the Repukes hang themselves and saying, "Gee, that's too bad. Lets be sure to keep quiet so that doesn't happen to us".

I cannot believe the way they are letting the changing political climate brought by a handful of brave Dem Congresspersons and millions of activists, just sit by the by and sip their cocktails on vacation.

They do not stand for us. They do vote like Republicans and then wonder why we feel we have no voice. So many of them are bought and paid for by big $$$ that we don't stand a chance.

When I and others here criticize the DLC and people say, "Well, we need to be united and support them anyway to 'win elections'" I just want to scream. Who needs more of the same??? We don't need their kind in office if that's what it means to win elections.

Dem Senators and Representatives: admit you were wrong to vote for the war. Blame it on the lies told by GWB and Co. Frame this about how we were all lied to and now in a quagmire. Offer some solutions!! Demand the media pay attention. We'll back you up. Honest we will.

Just show some freakin' spine and attempt to give the appearance that you represent the people. Jeez.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I wish they could hear you ...
Edited on Tue Aug-30-05 09:50 AM by Ian_rd
"Dem Senators and Representatives: admit you were wrong to vote for the war. Blame it on the lies told by GWB and Co. Frame this about how we were all lied to and now in a quagmire. Offer some solutions!! Demand the media pay attention. We'll back you up. Honest we will."

Sometimes I think they want to lose. What else could explain this apparent total political incompetence?

I also abhor the "we must stick with the Dem leadership" sentiments. If the Dem leadership were somehow consistent and relevant, there would be something to stick with. But the way the party is now, we would all be "sticking with" keeping our mouths shut and trying to co-opt Republican policies. The party leadership is broken at its peak and needs to be transfused with real progressives.

Onward Kucinich, onward Dean, onward you Hacketts of America. Take our party back and make it strong again. We will follow you. Spending the campaign contributions of hard-working Americans is so much sweeter than spending the devil's dough. What do they say about "good intentions"?
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Can we link this and the countless other threads to their email?
Would anyone read it?
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. I am glad you mentioned Kucinich - the ONLY lockstep Dem...
Like I said - look at their voting record. How would you vote on these bills? Votes in House/Senate are the only way things get done. You can talk a wonderful talk - but in the end it is how you vote.

We are screwed America (even you fucked-up Republicans) unless we get people in there who vote for our health and well-being.
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. Meanwhile, back at the bank, the DJI=10,500, zero growth for 56 months!!!
The ECONOMY is BARELY propped up by the HUGE deficit spending of the House/Senate/Administrative Republican controlled "leaders"?
Where are our Democratic leaders?! HIDING on vacation.
This is the time to paddle, or we miss the wave.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. FLATLINE
maybe no 1 will notice :shrug:

peace
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. that is sooooooo 2001
but apparently the DLC genius at their think-tanks figure it's just a matter of time, now...


http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace
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Spurt Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
30. It's all beyond the ...
....dem v repub arguments now.

Step back and have a look at all the issues collectively through a wide angle lens.
It's now a matter between the people and their gov't.

ALL of the gov't is failing the people.
Red or blue, they have collectively failed.

OP is of course correct saying "where are the Dems", but the need for that call exposes again their ongoing failure. It is their job (red or blue) to hold the administration to account. For nearly 5 years they have largely failed. Systemic failure is clearly evident, and that is not a partisan issue.

The People vs The Government.


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Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
31. What Democrats do you speak of????? BTW, none of which will
bother to "show up" even after vacation.

My feeling is that the progressive movement in this country is like the tortoise and the hare story......we are plodding along and will pass up the DLC no show Dems and cross the finish line somewhere around September 24th.

Bush and his "what me worry???" attitude seems to have been adopted by the Dems.........it makes me sick.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
34. Majority of Americans are against SS privatization; yet the 1st step in...
Edited on Tue Aug-30-05 10:23 AM by Sapphire Blue
... privatization is coming in September (HR 3304). Will this Administration use the same strongarm tactics to ram SS privatization through Congress that were used for CAFTA? And will Congress once again be bullied by this Administration into passing legislation that is detrimental to the people? Will America remain silent regarding the destruction of Social Security? Or will we speak out against HR 3304 and demand that Congress reject this bill?

Please see this thread...


If Americans don't stand up for Social Security and demand that Congress do the same, I might as well look into moving to Venezuela... I would love to have Chavez as my president.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
35. They fell into the same black hole that the hippies fell into.
Do you know that many people actually think the Iraq "war" is over? I even heard someone say the other day "Is that still going on?".

Remember the summer of love? I was so hopefull that our future was turning around. But in 1975 whenever my friends parted ways, we would say "Peace, love, AND GET A JOB!".

Well, the hippies vanished from the face of the planet. The Democrats vanished shortly thereafter.

They've been gone a long long time ago. Right about when the Drug War started. Fact.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. here's one:
They are out there if you look:

In Madison, Wesley Clark rips Iraq strategy

Madison - Calling the war in Iraq a "strategic blunder," retired Gen. Wesley Clark said today that the United States has turned that Middle Eastern country into a vast training camp for terrorists.

"We have created an engine generating terrorists in Iraq," he said in Madison. "It's a feedlot for terrorists, basically. They come in there, they see American troops, they learn how we operate, they get their free shots .... they test their courage, they find out the right techniques to develop leadership and then they can go out elsewhere. So, it's served as a recruiting (tool). The fact is, there wasn't a threat in Iraq, so it's a strategic blunder."

Clark, the former NATO commander, made an unsuccessful bid for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004. In an interview this morning before a fund-raiser for his political action committee at the American Table Family Restaurant, Clark said that he had "not even considered" whether he would seek the party's nomination in 2008.

Clark said the U.S. needed to draw Iraq's neighbors, including Syria and Iran, into diplomatic talks to eventually withdraw troops from Iraq.

"The neighbors are going to be involved in this problem," he said. "You can't keep them out."

-By Patrick Marley


From the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, www.jsonline.com
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howmad1 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #36
51. So why do we have to "look" so hard?
Why is it we can list the democrats with backbone on less than two hands?
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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
38. Pro-war voting Dems have to be careful....
think of it - dems who voted for the war have to be careful what they say because if they come out and say they were duped and Iraq wasn't worth it, it is like telling the parents, family and friends of service people that their lives, blood and sweat aren't worth it either.

One thing the Dems need to do is collectively do something that shows the service people and their family and friends that they truly do care about them.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. So instead of honestly admitting they got duped...
...they're going to continue letting the public think they're STILL duped and continue letting soldiers die for nothing?

Nice moral fence to ride.

When did job security become a moral value?
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Moral Values ...
Another opportunity to take a stand on moral values (like not sending other people's kids to war without sufficient cause) is being wasted away by the spineless Dem leadership.
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HardWorkingDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
52. All I am pointing out...
is that they have to be careful. If they just start popping off with some terrible message, many, many families will see it as a slap to the face of their service members.

Is that what the Dems want?
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. They are sending me another one of those *&^%$! letters addressed to
"Dear Democratic leader":

How would you characterize our gun laws in America? (3 options)

Which of the following statements most closely matches your view when it comes to extending the life of Social Security?

Do you suport increased defense spending to fight the war against terrorism?

What is your opinion about __________(insert issue here)?

This has nothing to do with leadership!!! This has everything to do with trying to get us to say "uh, yeah, I support a woman's right to choose" or "I think working families deserve new tax cuts". They aren't asking me to be a leader! They are asking me to be a follower who follows the followers and gives them money to squander on...what? What on earth are they spending that money on?

If Paul Hackett's ignored-by-the-DNC campaign is any indication, they are not getting a dime out of me.

Dangit! Lead the country. Show us that you are worth following!

I listened to General Clark speak today in Madison and even HE is saying the Dems have dropped the ball and he is committed to getting them to talk strongly again about national security and on other issues. He was great! Let him work with Dean to get this going. They at least sound like they have a plan that makes sense.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
40. There is no question that we have a very, very serious problem of our
Democratic Party leaders' SUPPORT for the Iraq war, and also their support for--or devastating silence with regard to--Bushite voting machine companies tabulating our votes with SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code.

Thank you for this post, Ian_rd! You are right on!

I think the two things are related--Dem leaders' support for the war and their malfeasance on our non-transaprent, Bush partisan-controlled election system.

Let me tell you a little story about what opened my eyes to the problems with our Dem Party leadership. I started finding out about electronic voting a year before the election. I'm a Californian, so I looked into it here, and found it was bad--but that our new Secretary of State, Democrat Kevin Shelley, was on the case, was suing Diebold and decertifiying the worst of their election theft machines, and was making real efforts to curtail the crappy, unreliable, hackable, voting systems that had been authorized by our prior Sec of State, Repub Bill Jones (who then went to work for the Sequoia voting machine company!). Shelley was also doing things like providing Californians with a paper ballot option for the 2004 election. (He also banned "revolving door" employment in his office.) I took out an absentee ballot myself, and felt that at least we had someone closely watching things in California, that we would probably have a fairly honest vote count here, and so I could devote my time to helping out (remotely) in other states, where things were not so well.

I hardly gave another thought to California (Kerry won the state by a 10% margin). In late summer 2004, some mysterious corruption charges against Kevin Shelley appeared in the SF Chronicle. They said he was "misusing HAVA funds," for instance (money from the fed electronic voting boondoggle bill). Turns out, what he was doing was WITHHOLDING those funds from the counties to prevent purchase of uncertified Diebold touchscreens--voting machines concerning which Diebold had lied to him. That's why he'd sued them. In the course of that suit, he demanded that they disclose their secret, proprietary source code (which I think is important to what happened next). (Imagine if we'd been able to review some of their secret source code just after the election!)

Shelling was not "misusing HAVA funds"! He was doing his job! He was looking after the interests of voters.

The story went away for a while--through the election--then re-emerged in January '05. There were a few other charges--all of which evaporated upon examination (as to any culpability on Shelley's part). The CA legis held hearings, and that's when my eyes began to open. One of the testifiers was Los Angeles county elections head Connie McCormack--a Democrat and an advocate of Diebold and paperless voting, and one of these career types who sneers at citizen activists as "not professional" (even citizen activists who are experts in electronic voting--as if citizens should have to be!). Turns out McCormack's best friend--who she wines and dines and takes vacations with--is Deborah Siler, formerly the chief salesperson for Diebold in California. What McCormack said at the hearing on Shelley is that she wanted to "drive a bulldozer" into the Sec of State's office, to bust loose the HAVA funds (to buy these crappy, hackable machines). She led a group of county officials (some of the worst in the state) who opposed Shelley's reforms, who actually filed a lawsuit against him to stop his reforms, and who, in every sense of the word, had become lobbyists for electronic voting companies, against the public interest!

Let me repeat. McCormack is a DEMOCRAT. The Bush Cartel black ops effort in the SF Chronicle (the substanceless charges against Shelley--I'm going on instinct here--demand Diebold source code, step on a Bush buddy's toes and you get black opped) combined with McCormack's big professional interest in electronic voting and--I presume--POWER over elected officials because of hers, and other county officials', CONTROL over the vote count, resulted in the CA leg Democrats complete abandonment of Shelley, to the point that some Dems, who wanted to support him, had to hide in their offices to avoid the order of the leadership to vote against him!

And he had done nothing wrong! He had merely been doing his job! --unlike so many other election officials in California and across the country. He was one of the good guys--one of the few who were trying to protect the voters against election theft.

The fed election commission (under Bush Cartel control) then started threatening Shelley with investigations. Shelley had no legal fund. He had no personal money (tells you something about Shelley). He had no means to defend himself with. And, lacking the support of the Dem Party leaders, and lacking in legal funds, he resigned, in Feb. '05--to be replaced by an UNELECTED Schwarzenegger appointee who immediately stacked his office and advisory group with Diebold advocates and other Bushites.

This is the most shocking thing that I have ever seen happen in California politics--since the destruction of CA Supreme Court Justice Rose Byrd (over the death penalty). And it tells us where WE, the justice-minded, anti-Iraq war majority in this country, stand, with regard to the Democratic Party. Nowhere is where.

They PERMITTED these criminals to gain control over our election system. They aided and abetted them with venal corruption among county election officials and others, on what is now the big business of selling our right to vote. Many of them--especially the top leadership--support Bush's war, and were not about to let Kerry get elected, because he would have been beholden to the anti-war grass roots--the people who worked their behinds off, and achieved a blowout success over the Repubs in new voter registration in 2004 (nearly 60/40!), as well as keeping Kerry competitive with the Bush money machine throughout the campaign, via thousands of small donations--and who, in fact, gave Kerry a landslide victory (by somewhere between a 5% and 10% margin). (--estimating from the exit poll east coast time zone curve, all the votes that were flipped over or outright manufactured by Diebold's and ES&S's secret vote tabulation formulae, and all those who were prevented from voting via voting roll purges--a million black voters, according to Greg Palast--and other massive Voting Rights Act violations.)

WHY were our Dem Party leaders SILENT about Bushite control of the tabulation of our votes? Why could they hardly even bring themselves to object to the massive violations of the Voting Rights Act in Ohio (and didn't even do that until EIGHT months after the election!)? Because it suited them! And they are now laying back like the snakes they are, planning to USE this huge anti-war movement that is developing, to put a WAR DEMOCRAT in the White House, to run a "better war" in the Middle East, and to get a Draft (which Bush can't do).

What we are looking at is the War Party, comprised of all the Republican leaders and most of the Democrats, and...? And the few honest politicians who have somehow survived, and who are still working on our behalf within what I can only call a fascist coup.

58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war BEFORE the invasion--way back in Feb. '03. Before all the lies were exposed; before the full horror and costs of it were known. Across the board in all polls. 58%! That's a BIG majority! And those are corporate news monopoly polls--always weighted toward the rightwing--so that figure was probably even higher. The American people NEVER supported this war. Never!

Now it's pushing 80%! And STILL we can hardly find a Democrat in the country who is willing to represent the interests of the MAJORITY on this vital matter--certainly none among the established leadership.

The story of the destruction of Kevin Shelley taught me a lot about the innards of the Dem Party leadership and our problems with it. At first I thought that the CA Dems were just cowardly--fearing black ops against themselves--just as many of us have thought about the Dems failure to fight the stolen election, or their failure to condemn torture, or their failure to condemn Bush's lies and Bush's war. They feared being Wellstoned. They feared being anthraxed--and all that. And, yes, I do think fear is a factor in this crippled and faltering democracy. But I think that corruption, and war profiteering (in which I include campaign contributions from backers of Israel's rightwing), are much the bigger factor in the utter malfeasance of the Democratic Party leadership. (And the stupidity of thinking that a fascist America, and the presence of 15 permanent U.S. military bases in Iraq, and the torture and deaths of Arabs and Muslims at U.S hands, and the invasion or nuking of Iran and Syria, is going to "help Israel" is beyond my comprehension. But it's part of the political reality that we must face. Our foreign policy is way over-influenced by Israel's rightwing.)

This is a big, complex country, and it is not easy to generalize. There may be pockets of honesty in some places. But there are damn few elected politicians who are willing to tell even the no-brainer truth that Bush partisans shouldn't be counting our votes with secret formulae!

I mean, COME ON!

We need a BIG BROOM, my friends. And the Republicans are not the only ones who need their house cleaned.

-------

More specifically, we need...

Paper ballots hand-counted at the precinct level (--Canada does it in one day, although speed should not even be a consideration, just accuracy and verifiability)

or, at the least...

Paper ballot (not "paper trail") backup of all electronic voting, a 10% audit (automatic recount), strict security, and NO SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code! (...jeez!).

...and we need to get this done at the state/local level, where the power over election systems still resides, and where ordinary people still have some influence. The electronic voting corruption is a formidable obstacle, but election reform is absolutely blockaded at the Fed level (and we wouldn't want them meddling any more anyway). And we MUST get this done! Our democracy is hanging in the balance.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. P.S. Why would Bushite voting machine companies permit a War Democrat
to win? Answer: Not only to get a Draft, and not only to start being able to pin the deaths and the costs on the Democrats (which our short term memory corporate news monopolies will, of course, promulgate without question), and not only (probably) to expand the war with some "Gulf of Tonkin" type phony incident, but also to rip the Democratic Party to shreds, once and for all--after which we will get Jeb (in '12), and that will be the death knoll of our democracy.

Bush is so unpopular that any successor of his ilk to continue the war will cause a revolt--and all the blood on the streets will be on the Republicans' hands. They want it to be on the Democrats' hands.

We have to tread very carefully in these waters. Germany, 1934, comes to mind (the fracturing of the center-left, and its inability to govern--exacerbated, I'm sure, by Nazi moles and provocateurs).

What I propose is that we fight like hell for a populist anti-war Democrat, and when we lose--which we inevitably will do (the War Party won't permit it, and they now control the vote tabulation), we accede and support the War Democrat, like we did Kerry. Only this time, because whoever it is, is going to win (I'm sure of it), we will have some political cache within the Dem regime. They depend on us for donations, for one thing--even if they don't give a crap about our votes. They will at the least have to pay lip service to some progressive and good government values. The PRIME ISSUE we must then push--in all venues, pulling out all the stops--is election reform. That must be our first priority: restoring our right to vote!

The struggle among the War Democrats will likely be between ones who would tend more toward a United Nations solution to Iraq (the Dem "left"--ahem) and those who will continue Bush's unilateral U.S. occupation and possibly expand it (the Dem "right"), with both probably running the war more efficiently and with a little less obvious war profiteering. We are NOT going to get a pullout. Even a U.N. solution is going to involve lots of U.S. troops, and probably maintenance of our bases. We are NOT going to get prosecutions for war crimes, or recovery of our money from these mass thieves. But we might get a bolstering of U.N. power (toward the goal of world peace), a lessening or elimination of torture and other outright illegal acts, possibly some better policies on Israel/Palestine, and a reduction of U.S. troops.

The "U.N. solution" Democrat is the one we want--and should throw our weight behind--because that regime is more likely to allow election reform.

The Dem who inherits this mess is going to have one helluva hard time. What "we" have done there is disastrous beyond belief. It may be that we will never have peace again in this century. And the human race and our planet may not survive. So we really MUST think strategically.

It is going to take a while to recover our democracy. As we clean up the election system, we will start electing more populist and more independent people to Congress (and other offices). Eventually--especially if the country goes bankrupt (a good possibility)--we may be able to elect a real populist to the White House and begin deconstructing this humongous, aggressive war machine that is such a huge temptation to powermongers and fascists. But we need to have patience. It's not going to happen overnight.

It's always possible that Cindy Sheehan and the huge antiwar sentiment in the country will overwhelm these corrupt politicians and force their hands to the will of the majority. I'm not saying it can't happen. But the Dem leaders silence on both the Iraq war and on the egregiously fraudulent election system does not bode well for that. These people running our country, both Dems and Repubs, are no longer beholden to US. They have Diebold and ES&S! Keep that in mind.

I think the most we can expect--even given a huge antiwar agitation--is a War Democrat in the White House. And the only other question, for the immediate future, is how far left or right that War Democrat is going to be, that is, how much democracy and progress will be permitted.

And one thing to beware of is false promises. Is the War Democrat who promises to "bring the troops home" some time or another really more progressive and more trustworthy than the one who may state his/her purposes more truthfully? A hard judgment, but one that I think we will need to make. We may actually want a tough warrior type, who ALSO has spine on progressive principles. A tough, principled person, whom we may not agree with on the war, might well see the justice of election reform, for instance, while a weaker type, who may SAY better things about the war, just spouts lib values and doesn't mean it.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
41. They're scared...
...they've lost their moral compasses and without them they are lost.

Wake up, dems! The progressives aren't your enemies!

You used to BE the progressives!

Remember?

What happens if there is a backlash against the Republican minority and no one showed up?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
45. Rimming w's ass with their tongues as usual.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
50. However inadequate Dem resistance to the neocon agenda is--
--it's still the only resistance by elected officials that there is. The vast majority of antiwar and anti-PATRIOT Act votes were Dems, even though that was nowhere near enough.

We came damned close to beating CAFTA, with 95% of Dems opposed and 95% of Republicans in favor. This is a huge turnaround from NAFTA, and it occurred mainly because of grassroots pressure.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
53. A very good question
I've been asking myself the same thing. I read through the thread, and see some explanations/excuses, and while normally I would be the first to defend the dems, I just can't do it anymore. WHERE ARE THEY? There IS no excuse. *'s approval running into the ground, an anti-war movement growing bigger everyday, a media that now once in awhile does a story critical of shrub, and no one is doing anything to take advantage of it. I don't pretend to be smarter than the dems, but it's just plain common sense that now is the time to be pointing out the rethug's problems and faults, to come up with exit strategies, or even, just to remind the world that there IS another party. The silence is deafening, and I am losing faith in the entire party. It's sad, because there's really no viable alternative.

NOW is the time for them to make their voices heard, and I'm not hearing them. I just don't know what to think - someone in the party has got to take the lead, and start helping to take this administration down, or, at the very least, offer an alternative. The repukes have given us so much ammunition, and no one is using it...
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