From a Non-Christian: "End of Days" and Is Bush the "Anti-Christ"

[Coastie for Truth]

Are New Orleans (and the Mississippi Gulf Coast) and Darfur and Peak Oil and Iraq the begining of the "End of Times"?

King James Version of the Bible, Revelation chapter 6, verses 1 to 8:

1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Is the Bush the Horseman on the White Horse? Opinions differ on whether the first horseman, riding the white horse, represents Christ, the Antichrist, or the False Prophet, but the general consensus of biblical scholars is that he is the Antichrist.

Is Iraq the Horseman on the Red Horse? The second horseman, riding the red horse, is generally held to represent War. The red color of the second horse could mean bloody war, and the sword held by the rider could symbolize war and violence.

Is the famine and laying waste of New Orleans, and the Mississippi Gulf Coast and Iraq and Da fur the Third Horseman on the Black Horse? The third horseman, riding the black horse, is Famine. The black color of the third horse could be a symbol of death and famine. Its rider was holding a scale, which means scarcity of food, higher prices, and famine.

Is famine the symbol of Peak Oil -- and the loss of the oil rigs and refineries in the Gulf?

Is the loss of Life in Iraq, in Hurricane Katrina, so explicit in New Orleans and Mississippi, the Fourth Horseman of Death? The fourth horseman is explicitly named Death. The pale greenish color of the fourth horse means fear, sickness, decay, and death.

I am not a Christian! I have never studied the Book of Revelations -- this is just a recap of a discussion I had with a Rapture Democrat - very far left - (yes, such people actually exist) at lunch today.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Here is my thought in a thread that suggested something very similar

My vote is YES.. I even brought the four horsemen into it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4513618&mesg_id=4513757

[MadeinOhio]

2. If he is the anti-christ........

We are the most sad people to ever be seen, because the anti-christ is an incompetent spoiled brat.

What we have here is a very stubborn, strangely mentally challenged man who thinks he's god or on some "mission" for the world. If he is the anti-christ, he is the worst one ever seen and so incompetent he spits on all religion by going golfing. Or just hiding out.

[Raster]

3. You may want to give this a look

http://www.answers.com/topic/book-of-revelation

[ClintonTyree]

4. Please........

:eyes: There's no need to interject superstition into this.

[journalist3072]

7. I don't think the original poster was interjecting superstition

I just think they had a valid question about whether we are seeing the fulfillment of certain biblical prophecies.

[yodermon]

13. lol n/t

[[e-mail]]

5. becareful

what you read and what you believe, there is not a answer for all questions and many answers according to different people,
Read a bible and you will know why I tell you this.
Bush could be but then again he may not be. But I KNOW we are in end times and have such started reading my bible after not having touched one for 26 years. The tsunimin did it for me. It made me remember something in revelations...
I think the NEO CONS are bringing us closer.
Peace

[journalist3072]

6. From a Christian's perspective....

I am a Christian, and I think you have posed a very interesting question here.

FYI: The part of scripture from Revelation that you quoted is happening as Jesus is breaking open the 7 seals. The 7 seals are events that will occur, which will help pave the way for the return of Christ, and God's judgement upon this earth.

And John is recording the scene in heaven as the 7 seals are being loosed by Jesus Christ.

I certainly think that we are living in the "end times." I don't think there's any question about that. But the "end times" could go on for another 50 years...another 100 years.... we don't know. Only the Father knows that day and hour. Matthew 24:6 says "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

Moreover, Matthew 24:14 says "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

So in other words, before Christ returns, one of the things that must be fulfilled in the teaching of the gospel all throughout the world. And that has not happend yet, because there are places where the Bible is still banned.

Now, you ask if events like Iraq represent the loosing of the 7 seals. I honestly do not know how to answer that question. Because if you think about it, the second seal (peace being taken away from the earth) has been happening for a long time now. (I use WW1 and WW2 as examples).

Now all of that being said, I do believe we are seeing the fulfillment of certain biblican prophecies outlined in Revelations.

[[e-mail]]

25. the bible

is almost every where
and with the internet
it will be soon

[journalist3072]

28. True, however...

You have many poor people who cannot aford internet access.

So the fact is that the Bible has not yet been taught all throughout the land.

And that's one of the things that must be fulfilled before Christ's return.

[[e-mail]]

30. look

at how many mission are going on right now
they are in almost all countries
look at how much the last pope had to do with them
this is almost complete

[journalist3072]

38. Agreed, but....

I'm not saying that the Bible isn't being preached in the world; I'm saying that it has not been preached all throughout the land yet. It has not.

You have a lot of Muslim countries that do not allow the Bible. Look at the 2 Christian women who had been held in Afghanistan for some time, simply because they were trying to bring the Word of God over there.

[[e-mail]]

42. does not need to be preached

The Gospel must be published in all the world-Mk 13:10.
It's in more languages then I will ever speak

[WCGreen]

8. You know what....

All that revelations crap is a hallucination on the part of paul in order to scare the bejeebess out of people....

It's a recruiting toll....

Jesus didn't talk about it....

Jesus was all about living your life in the moment and that moment was to do unto others as you would have them do unto you....

Simple, succinct and oh so perverted by the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell

[really annoyed]

9. Don't Jump To Conclusions

There has been horiffic devestation in our world, yes. However, it is not the first the planet Earth has seen.

I think we need to stay on course and not worry about superstition. Worry about the tangible, worry about the people in need.

[FreedomAngel82]

10. First of all I'm a Christian and have been

since 1995 when I made the decision to become one through baptisum and devote my life to God and Christ and am a believer and raised in a Christian home. My dad is an old school Lincoln/Roosevelt type republican, my Mom used to be one but I turned her hehe, and I'm a very far left wing liberal and my brother I don't know what he is but he doesn't like Bush. I usually don't take to heart the "end of the world" stuff simply because of what Christ said. He said the end of the world will come like a thief in the night: in other words we don't know!! So if Christ says we don't know then we don't know. People have been saying all that stuff I'm sure since the civil war, WW1 and probably even the Vietnam war. I've personally not really paid much attention to the book of Revelation. I've read parts and pieces here and there but nothing serious. Surpisingly my preacher has never been an "end of the world" type of preacher. He deals with the here and now and talks about things that can help our individual spiritual lives. We've only studied Revelation at least once or twice that I remember since my preacher has been at my church (a little over five years now). And when we studied Revelation it was the hope that this life isn't the end and there's more in the afterlife etc. I do get the sense that the man on the horse is the antiChrist. He has a very dark feel to him. Bush does have that very dark feel but not this evil. From this man on the white horse I feel pure pure pure evil. So evil I want to take a bath, but Bush isn't quite that much. I don't think Bush is the antiChrist. He isn't fooling the whole world and supposivley the antiChrist will fool the whole world. Of course with predictions of any sort it's always important to remember things change since the Universe and us are made up of energy and we have freewill including the AntiChrist, so could the AntiChrist come as Bush? I would guess Poppy Bush before I would junior Bush. Remember he's even more evil then junior and I believe the real person running the show. So I think if you're seriously wondering the question should be which Bush is the antiChrist? Poppy or junior? Apparently Poppy Bush's Skull & Bones name is Murdoch. Murdoch is mentioned in the old testament in Genesis. He's got a lot of negativity around him and is very evil. Apparently when it's time for the end of the world Murdoch will be going up against God, the Lord our Creator in the battle against good vs. evil. I think it's very interesting how Murdoch is Poppy Bush's Skull & Bones name and I'm sure Poppy Bush takes this name and position seriously.

[MadeinOhio]

23. FreedomAngel that's a good point....

But now who is the antiChrist?

I think I might know who it is........

It's Richard Cheney's friend A.Q. Khan.

Ever heard of A.Q. Khan? He's a terrorist warlord from Pakistan who is so evil he makes Osama Bin Laden and friends look like girl scouts. He is so evil I think he is the cause of Cheney's evil. And Cheney is about 10000000000 times at least as evil, than that of, Bush.

So I believe for some reason that the antiChrist is probably Khan.....Some terrorist we can't even see right now or grasp..

[EVDebs]

11. Please read End Time Delusions by Steve Wohlberg

The whole 'Left Behind' rapture eschatology is a misreading of scripture. See Futurism, as historically it was a response to the Reformation's view of what the symbolism of the end times really meant

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

[journalist3072]

16. Just some clarification for you....

I read Mr. Steve Wohlberg's article before. And I basically agree with him.

He is not disputing that there will be a rapture. He believes in the rapture (and I do as well).

What he disputes is the whole "left behind" theory that when the rapture happens, you will have a lot of unsaved people left behind, wondering where all the Christians went.

He makes the argument (and very well so) that the Rapture is not going to be some secret event. It will a loud, climatic event that everyone will be aware is happening. Not some secret, quiet thing like the "left behind" folks want people to think.

[PassingFair]

18. This just in....The End Is NOT Near....

You must learn to cope.

[EVDebs]

21. Well, it's his book not an article but George Monbiot almost got it in his

article on Bush and foreign policy

Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are at the heart of power
US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html

Monbiot erred by stating it began with 19th Century preachers, but it began with Jesuit Franciso Ribera's 'futurist' eschatology

"In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to Earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel's occupation of the rest of its "biblical lands" (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to Earth."

I believe 'rapture' would be the Second Coming as you do also. No 'secret rapture' is what I was getting at. BTW, a former speechwriter for LBJ, Grace Halsell, wrote a book on this called Forcing God's Hand. It didn't go into the detail that Wohlberg does though. Another good link is Gary Burge's

Christian Zionism, Evangelicals and Israel
www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/159

It seems that too much emphasis by evangelicals on building a Third Temple in Jerusalem is causing most of this chaos. See also PBS's

Impact of Millennium on the Holy Land
January 7, 2000 Episode no. 319
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week319/cover.html

[[e-mail]]

36. I ve read

a couple of the left behind books
I know people that believe in rapture
I have read many articles for it and against it
and some think its pre this or post that
so I am not counting on it
I do know the bible says be ready for I will come like a theif in the night
So I figure if I am ready it won't matter rapture or not

[journalist3072]

40. Some more perspective

Yes, the Bible does say the Lord will come like a thief in the night. And at the very end of the book of Revelations, one of Jesus' last words is "Surely I come quickly." And the next line says "Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus."

The Rapture will happen very fast. The dead in Christ will rise first, and those of us who remain on earth who are saved, will be caught up together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

[lala_rawraw]

12. Look at it this way

If Bush is the anti-Christ, then we are on the side of good. If Bush is just an evil dim-witt, then we are still on the ethical high ground. Either way, don't worry, we are the good guys.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. I hope my exacta works.

[onager]

15. This guy nailed it 200 years ago...

"It is between 50 and 60 years since I read (The Book Of Revelation), and I then considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams...

There is not coherence enough in them to countenance any suite of rational ideas...

What has no meaning admits no explanation...

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Alexander Smyth, 1825.

[tlsmith1963]

17. People Have Been Saying This For Centuries...

...every time something bad happens, they say it's the end times. Let's not get paranoid here. The times are bad enough without talking about Armageddon.

Tammy

[annagull]

19. logiclly ridiculous, but why does god hit the Red States hardest?

if that is the premise we are working on, look last year in fla, mostly western fla which heavily vote rep were the worst hit, missisippi is ground zero, if the reason is 'God is punishing us', then maybe whatever they are doing they should change, based on that logic. Personally, I just think this is tragic for anyone and everone in the path, no matter religion, race. creed or nationality

[[e-mail]]

33. god has not

punished us
yet

[halsaxby]

20. Your average Christian better hope that Jesus isn't coming.

If I was Jesus and I was coming back to settle up accounts, I would start with the hypocrites that make up 90% of American Christianity. If Jesus is omniscient, than past deeds are going are going to form the basis of the Final Judgement and your typical Christian is going to be SOL.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

22. It sure feels like Hell on Earth right now, maybe?

It is not in my Churches teaching to put to much stock in Revelations. The quote I hear about the Rapture from most historically Christian Churches (Reformation) is, "It's not in the Bible".

We could conjure up all kinds of things by picking and choosing Bible passages. I think a lot of people tried to pull Bible passages early in our history in hopes of being on the righteous side. An example, I can't remember the Book and chapter, but there is a verse that talks about the good people of Philadelphia. I wonder how the Philadelphia's (PA and MS, not sure if there are others)got their name. How much influence did the Eagle as our National symbol come from the Bible. I don't know?

This is all I know, man does not ever, out smart God, period.

edit for spelling

[[e-mail]]

24. that is exactly

what is to come
that is why I don't think the right really reads the bible
its all in the book

[journalist3072]

27. Define typical Christian

I am a Christian, and I do not associate myself with the Pat Robertson/James Dobson types who claim to be Christians.

[Matariki]

26. oh, so THAT'S what he was doing on his 'vacation'.

[KittyWampus]

29. Bush is afraid of horses so no, he's not the white horseman of apocolypsel

[tinfoilinfor2005]

31. I don't think junior is the anti-christ...

but i think he works for him.

[[e-mail]]

35. that may be

true

[Matariki]

32. why is it 'Revelations' time when disaster happens in the US?

there have been disasters all over the world for, well forever. A coworker of mine from the Philippines was telling me that they have storms like this twice a year with corresponding tragedy. 500 poor people in a shanty town wiped out in a mudslide during a monsoon, gone, buried, disappeared. In 1900 8000 people were killed in a storm in the south. the list goes on and on.

what i'm trying to say to you is get over the apocalyptic crap, it serves no purpose.

[Borgnine]

39. Exactly.

Everyone was saying this when 9/11 occured as well.

[TimeChaser]

34. No, no, no! Not the appocalypse... Ragnarok!

[Ikonoklast]

37. It would be kinda sad if Bush was the anti_Christ

I guess that Hell must be hard up in the recruiting department. I mean, after all, a Cheerleader as anti-Christ? Lucifer couldn't get anyone else but a drunken coke-head business failure? Come on people, don't you know allegory when you read it? The Revelations were not meant to be taken literally.

[belle]

41. No. It's just the U.S. getting a small taste of what big chunks of the

rest of the world have gone through without us really noticing, many, many times over.

For that matter, the U.S., too. I expect people were asking similar questions during the Civil War, for instance. Pearl Harbor.

The Book of Revelation was very likely couched in symbolic language because it was talking about the political situation of the day.

Which is not to say that we aren't necessarily fucked, that God/Gaia/karmic fortune/the piskies aren't supremely fed up with the lot of us, or right now doesn't suck dead ferrets. It does. As for the other two, well, we don't know, but I suspect that going on with the assumption that as flawed and culpable as we all are, we do deserve better than this, and can make it happen, is probably going to be a healthier attitude than an apocalyptic mentality.