Water ruins a house, you know. You DO know that, right?

[gristy]

New Orleans is going to have to be bulldozed. Might as well let it revert to marshland after that.

[niyad]

1. specialty restoration crews can do marvels

[TroglodyteScholar]

4. Not for an entire city of that size, they can't...

Those services cost big $$$$. I don't know if you've ever been there, but New Orleans has its fair share of poverty...

[htuttle]

15. How many of them have experience decontaminating toxic waste?

How many Hazmat suits can they get their hands on?

Realistically, I don't think there's anyone with experience with something like this.

Cities have been known to come back after total devastation. The great London fire, the Chicago fire, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc...Then again, there have also been cities abandoned to the seas (or volcanos).

Hard to say which New Orleans will be at this point. I'd suspect they'll eventually try to rebuild, but it's an extremely daunting prospect.

[Zen Democrat]

39. Black mold can kill a house.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

50. My parent's building in West Palm Beach developed black mold

in the aftermath of Francis last year. Luckily, they were able to get rid of it because the water exposure wasn't that great. I immmediately thought, when I saw the houses in New Orleans, soaking in standing waters, that they were as good as gone.

[TahitiNut]

40. Let's just list the "marvels" they can't do ...

(1) Every bit of water-damaged drywall or plaster must be stripped and removed.
(2) Carpeting and padding is a total loss.
(3) Heating systems will be a total loss and ductwork will require decontamination.
(4) Any water-damaged insulation must be removed, which means removing panelling and/or siding.
(5) Anything soaked in water carrying human fecal matter and other toxic sewage is a total loss, and must be removed. Concrete, brick, and block surfaces require scouring and decontamination.
(6) If the load-bearing structures require replacement (probable), the odds that any roof or upper floors can be salvaged are less than even.

Now, multiply that by a minimum of 30,000 homes. Until complete, houses are uninhabitable. Prolonged delays jeapordize the structural integrity even more. Rot is inevitable.

It'll be years before they're close to complete. The problems will be compounded by crooked business-folk of every stripe.

[TankLV]

41. You can easily remove a foundation while not disturbing the house above it

I know.

I used to do it while the architect of a construction company that spedialized in it.

It's not as hard as one would think. Quite amazing, actually.

But all construction "costs" something.

My pity is the unfortunate souls who will buy the "renovated" homes that haven't been repaired successfully and thoroughly.

[Pallas180]

47. two words: black mold. He's right - might as well bulldoze and

that may be what they have in mind...then they can put im more oil wells closer to shore and bigger refineries inthe place of New Orleans...get it?

[niyad]

2. specialty restoration crews can do marvels

[Shadder]

3. And where do you put all that stuff

once you start to tear it down? Thats gonna be a heck of a lot of trash.

[shraby]

11. The northern part of the country

could probably use the wood for fuel in the winter.

[Xithras]

33. Nope, it'll get burned.

Construction lumber is typically treated with all kinds of chemicals to preserve or waterproof it, and isn't safe to burn for heating. Toss into the mix that the wood may have anything from tar to asbestos stuck to it, and shipping it north for heating becomes quite dangerous.

Odds are, they'll push it into big piles and burn it. That's the easiest way to get rid of scrap wood.

[jimshoes]

5. I fear that

for the most part, you are right. I hope NO can be saved but things appear bleak at this point.

[Spinzonner]

6. Maybe they should rebuild NO with houseboats

[buddysmellgood]

36. You know, I was just thinking that everything should be rebuilt on

barges.

[madeline_con]

7. It depends on the house.

Stucco won't fare well. Brick can be redone inside, new windows, etc.

[TankLV]

42. Stucco is actually meant to be "soaked" - it is NOT a "waterproof" surface

The waterproof membrane BEHIND the stucco is the water/weather barrier.

Stucco stays "soaked" in all rains - it just weeps out at the bottom and eventually drys between soakings.

It's the moldy plaster (food for the fungus - sugars in the paper glue and the plaster itself) that will definitely have to be cut-out.

The wood studs can be encapsulated in an anti-mold killing coating and be perfectly fine ONCE IT IS ALLOWED TO DRY OUT THOROUGHLY before applying such a coating.

Carpeting CAN be "cleaned" - but it is probably cheaper to buy new and re-install.

Same with furniture and cabinets.

Clothing just needs to be thoroughly cleaned.

I must have done hundreds of these types of remedial jobs.

[tk2kewl]

8. I think you are onto something there...

I would still try to save the heart of the city but...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4518025

[Swede]

9. Is this water salt water from the sea?

That would corrode metal.

[alphafemale]

10. Mold can be toxic. nt

[TankLV]

43. But not all mold IS toxic. Only a couple actually are.

As long as the structure is opened up and allowed to thoroughly dry out, it can be isolated and rendered harmless.

A big part of the cleaning process involves plain old chlorox type bleach.

[Cleita]

12. When we had a fire in our place of business, the worst

damage wasn't done by the fire but by the water the firemen used to put it out. Water does serious damage.

[Horse with no Name]

13. Not necessarily

Depends on the foundation.
Many of the houses in this part of the country are built on pier and beam.
We had a major flood--to the point the only way to clean it out was to bring a hose in and shovels.
Carpets, floors, some drywall, etc was replaced.
These will end up being the houses that will be rented to the poor.
However...also in this part of the country, mold is a problem.
Houses will be repaired as minimally as possibly--but will produce long term health problems of the inhabitants.

[ultraist]

14. They rebuilt historic Charleston after a massive hurricane

And it looked better than ever! They will not have to completely tear down all of the flooded structures but yes, it will a massive job.

[12345]

18. charleston wasn't submerged.

[ultraist]

20. Uh, yes it was. There was major flooding.

Charleston has similiar water/pumping issues that NOLA does.

Flooding is a major problem in Charleston. Have you ever been there?

[LeftHander]

22. Unlike Charleston, This flood will last for months

There is no place for the water to recede too.

It has to to be pumped....

By new pumps.

After the entire waterlogged levee system is rebuilt.

[12345]

25. that's what i meant. not for the amount of time the new orleans

will be. like the mississippi cities that were hit in katrina, the waters subsided relatively quickly.

[LastDemocratInSC]

26. Charleston is ABOVE sea level, and the flooding was quickly over

The flooding in Charleston was restricted to the lower peninsula area and was caused by the storm surge, not by broken levees. The flooding receded when the eye of the hurricane passed.

The buildings in Charleston didn't have water covering them to the roofs for days as those in New Orleans now have and will continue to have for perhaps weeks.

There will be a strong case to be made for bulldozing what is there now and letting it revert to a natural state - and the case will be based on economics.

[ultraist]

29. I didn't say the flooding in Charleston was as bad, did I?

I said they did have flooding and they did rebuild the city. Point being, they will rebuild NOLA.

[chicagiana]

30. It's an economic problem ...

If the businesses stay, things will be rebuilt. If they don't, New Orleans will make Flint Michigan look like a swank suburb.

The other option is to jack up the city and fill it in. This has been done before (Chicago) but not at the scale (height wise) that New Orleans would require. But if you were to do it, now would be a good time.

[12345]

16. it undermines the foundations. look at the levees. look at the

collapsed buildings. think about the environmental contamination.

[TankLV]

44. Foundations can be relatively easily repaired.

I know. I've done it hundreds of times.

Not as complicated a proposition as one would assume.

Just takes a bit of creativity and planning. There are many ways to do it, too - all without harming any structure above.

[fishnfla]

17. The city has been there for over 270 years

it has seen floods, epidemics, wars,fires, slavery, other hurricanes, one of the suckiest football teams in history, lots of bad things.

It'll survive this.It'll be back stronger

[RummyTheDummy]

23. Holy shit, we've got an optimist here

Having spent most of the day reading the "end of the world is nigh" manic, overly melodramatic posts all over DU today this was a nice change of pace. Thanks.

By the way, what is this, about the 5,000th NOLA will have to be bulldozed thread since Sunday? For christ sakes, enough already. I swear I think some are reveling in the misery like some twisted reality show on Fox.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

45. I guess it's safe to assume you're

Not a Saints fan? ;)

Thanks for not jumping on the "NO is dead" bandwagon. :toast:

At this stage of the game none of us know for sure what will or won't survive. I plan on waiting and keeping hope alive in my heart that all is not lost.

[donco6]

19. They can be repaired, usually.

Been through many floods. It's a mess, and sometimes the damage is too severe. But many times homes can be repaired.

And, too, think of the other great cities that have been rebuilt from rubble. Berlin. Munich. London.

Should they rebuild? Well, that's the question, eh?

[Mr_Spock]

49. Mold and rot in that climate are not conducive to rebuilding

People would likely die from respiratory infections - better off rebuilding - it would likely be cheaper in most cases...

[buddysmellgood]

21. I think you're right. What does the weight of the water do to foundations?

I think it's mostly compromised. Perhaps it can be bulldozed into the lowest part of the NO and used to raise the level of that part of the city? Anything they do rebuild should have to be several stories tall and flood proof. Are we all going to foot the bill for that? I'm all for restoring NO if it can be done, but I fear this is just the first of many more storms thanks to global warming.
Insurance companies simply pay out claims and then take a massive loss on taxes so that we the taxpayer end up footing the bill anyway.

[ScreamingMeemie]

24. Not always. It depends on what the foundation is made of, what's

underneath...many things. I am hoping after Betsy, they learned a few things. But now, it's beginning to look like all is lost, and I'm just worried about the people.

[nashbridges]

27. Water weight damages foundations that are not built low

Enough to reach into a clay or rock bedrock system. Most in NO in the last century reached deep enough to hit solid enough soil to support the vertical weight of the houses on top of them, the problem is lateral (sideways) forces from water that are seeping through the soil.

Build a strong enough building on top of a fairly solid foundation, and I think you'll be surprised what survives. I expect a great deal of homes built in the past 30 years won't make it, but older homes will survive in some manner. Probably not in any manner the owners would like, but still impressive none the less.

[Catbird]

28. Not a good place for a large city

New Orleans is not a safe place to locate a large city. There will be more hurricanes. It was only a matter of time before a big one hit. The next big one might not be for 100 years, but it might be next month. I don't know enough about construction to know if you can construct buildings that will hold up against this kind of hit and still be usable. The Mississippi River might still change its course, which it has done in the past. Rebuilding in the same place might not even be an option.

[chicagiana]

31. Terrorism threat ...

Imagine how easy it would be for Al Queda to take out an entire city with a few pounds of C4 drilled into a levee. This is under "normal" conditions.

I think the businesses that don't NEED to be in New Orleans will be apt to leave. Imagine how much the flood insurance premiums will go up after this.

And I also imagine that a LOT of people who have fled will never return.

[Xithras]

32. When lumber becomes waterlogged, it expands. That will doom NO

When it dries out and contracts, the nails all pop loose and the building collapses. The wood, softened by the soaking, also twists as it loses its integrity and load bearing capacity.

This isn't a problem in the average flood because it can take a week or more for a 2x4 to saturate, and the average flood only submerges a home for a few days. In this case, the homes may be underwater for WEEKS, so they probably won't be standing after the water gets pumped out.

[buddysmellgood]

34. good point. Although they let Blair stay.

[TankLV]

46. You don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't work that way.

I know. I'm an architect. Such repairs have been my specialty for years. It's quite amazing how much you can salvage successfully.

That does not actually happen. The wood doesn't ever get soaked to even near that degree. If it stayed under water for 50 years, maybe. But not for even a few months or a year.

Where do you think they store the wood studs, etc. while a home is being constructed? Not in a protected dry environment, that's for sure!

Now, one big worry is that there are formosan (spelling?) termites in that region - water is a GREAT source of nourishment for them.

They cannot tollerate completely submerged conditions - they have to breathe too - but if the wood structure is not allowed to dry out completely, they can move in and consume the entire wood structure of a typical home in about 30 days!

Las Vegas and similar desert cities don't have such problems because it is so dry here termites (and fleas - there are NO fleas in Las Vegas!) can't survive!

Now, cleaning the sewage off the stuff - that's another story - but it can also be done quite successfully.

[Xithras]

51. Wha?!?! My dad lost a shop to that very thing, it DOES work that way

My dad had a large wooden shop along the San Joaquin river here in northern California when we had the big floods a few years ago, and his shop was underwater for nearly two weeks (water got trapped behind the levee and ponded). He was ecstatic when the water was finally pumped out and the shop was still standing, but watched in despair as the building started to list over the following week. The county inspector who red-tagged it not only explained the problem to us, but showed us where two weeks of soaking had pulled the nails out 1/4 to 1/2 inch. When the wood soaked and expanded, the nails were pulled outward with the wood. When it dried and contracted, the building was left with gaps between the studs.

We found out later that a decent contractor could have saved the building by pulling the siding off and hammering the damned thing back together, but the county pushed it over before we got the chance. In NO, there will be so many buildings needing this kind of work that there's NO WAY they can all be repaired before they begin to collapse.

There's a big difference between a little rain getting the outside of the 2x4 wet, and submerging the 2x4 completely beneath the water for weeks on end. Unless the wood has been sealed or pressure treated, it WILL soak up water, and it WILL expand.

[alfredo]

35. I am from a river city, I know what you mean.

NO will be hell for months to come.

Floods destroy the sheet rock, warps the wood, gets in everything. It really fucks up a house.

[Kenroy]

37. As sad and painful as it is...

I agree with you.

It doesn't make sense to rebuild the city where it is - below sea level in a hurricane zone.

It's there because History put it there and let it stay as long as it has. But it's gone now, and I just don't see the sense of bringing it back so it can be destroyed again.

It's an incalculable loss to our culture and our history - but it's gone.

[jab105]

38. The water is also sewage...when we were cleaning up my MOLs place

on the beach after Ivan, I had a shirt over my nose as I shoveled sewage mud mixed with all kinds of other crazy stuff...I'll never forget that smell...it was horrible...

[doc03]

48. Many houses in this area along the Ohio river have been

flooded many times and have stood for over 100 years. Every house on Wheeling Island in Wheeling WV was nearly completly submerged in the 1936 flood and they are still standing.