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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:02 PM
Original message
Think about the implications of this: Nat'l Guard in Iraq, NorthCom HERE.
Allow me to explain. Earlier today in the break room at work I caught a bit of CNN post-Katrina disaster coverage and there was an interview with the director(?) of FEMA.

He was talking about how, under the auspices of Homeland Security, the Northern Command was mobilizing army troops to deal with the disaster relief efforts.

Not a word about the National Guard -- which, in the old days, would have been the ones in the forefront of relief mobilization.

This is what I want folks to ponder. FEMA, already a sinister entity in our pre-9/11 world (look up what sorts of powers Reagan gave the agency in regard to martial law and suspension of local government powers and the Constitution itself -- it's NOT just a nice "helping hand" agency granting loans to disaster victims, it's MUCH more.), has been rolled into the whole "Homeland Security" apparatus with more powers than ever for government control over the populace.

Add to this the establishment of the Northern Command, the military arm of Homeland Security, specifically designated for domestic deployment, and under Federal/Pentagon command.

Meanwhile, the National Guard, which is normally under the command of state governors is being effectively moved out of the picture by being deployed to fight on foreign soil. Our National Guards have always been our neighbors, folks with roots in the communities they were supposed to serve. But they've been sent away, and along with that comes the end of state control over any domestic use of the military.

Now any domestic use of the military is under the control of the Feds. The soldiers in the streets are NOT your neighbors and community members, they are the professional, permanent military. The Posse Comitatus laws have been done away with by the monster of Homeland Security.

Think about it. If crowd control is deemed necessary, the Feds will have all the say. These will not be your neighbors and community members holding their guns on you. They will not be the high school classmates of your kids, they will not be your nephews and nieces, or your neighbor's kids who might have some qualms about pulling a trigger on people they grew up around.

No, that's been neatly done away with. They've been moved out the way, sent to be cannon fodder in the imperialist wars, while the Federal government -- the national security state -- has given itself the power to use its military domestically in whatever way it deems necessary.

Anyway, these thoughts have been chilling me all day. I wish I could express this better, but I'm hoping that the gist of what I'm trying to say will come through.

sw
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Lifelong Protester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. You are expressing it pretty damn well
and scaring the hell out of me. I had NOT even thought of this part of the equation.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Read you loud and clear...
It does not look good for the next few weeks in Miss and LA.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Chilling, is right.
Makes one wonder if that's why they're over there and * is not bringing them home. People are talking in my area about this very thing lately.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. They picked up that idea after Tianamen Square
IIRC, the Chinese government eventually sent troops from Szechwan into the Square, because the local PLA troops wouldn't shoot at the protestors.

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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Damn, you're right!
You recall correctly, that IS what the Chinese did; pulled in troops from another province.

sw
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
84. I was told by my Chinese office mate that the new troops were Mongolian
The original PLA troops wouldn't shoot because they could understand the local language (Mandarin). The Mongolians were sent because they couldn't understand Mandarin but would obey orders.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. I think you're right
I remember it was from somewhere in the North -- thought it was from Szechwan, but Mongolian troops rings a bell now that you mention it.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. it is the 'First Army"--regular army east of the Mississippi is what I
heard today will be deployed and the Pentagon will be in charge.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Is the "First Army" part of the Northern Command?
The guy on CNN this afternoon specifically said "NorthCom", which is what got me going on all this. I've been horrified at the establishment of the Northern Command from the very start, and when I heard this guy so casually state that NorthCom would be handling the disaster zone operation, it just stopped me cold.

And of course, the idiot newsreader never raised a peep about the National Guard...

sw
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I think Canada is becoming part of NorthCom as well
According to the Institute for Global Research.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. Yes - unllateral decision by the US, clear violation of territorial
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. Horrible, horrible - is THIS why Bush looked so pleased with his cake
and his guitar? SOMETHING has happened to make him feel like he's counted coup on us fools - again. I am beginning to suspect that the very inadequate response to and preparation for the hurricane may have been deliberate, not just carelessness and callousness. I am suspicious to the point of beginning to suspect LIHOP, even with the levee break for which the sandbag helicopter never arrived, the break that was never reported until it was huge, the break where there were no sandbag teams, no preparation when the hurricane was coming.

He's confirmed now that OUR National Guard is his to kill or dispose of in his illegal wars of choice. Disaster rellief is optional in any case and consists mostly in "controlling looting."

As a bonus for him, the price of oil is up. The Saudis will be pleased - with those drilling rigs out, some of the US productioin will be offline for a while and all the more valuable when it is back up.

Something stinks most suspiciously about this. LIHOP? I don't know, but I'm starting to wonder. There was never any effort by Bush to limit the damage. When that helicopter with the sandbag for the failing levee never showed up, the NO mayor tried frantically to reach the president and was unable to.

Deliberate? I do wonder. If it was NOT deliberate, it is a scathing example of unbelievable callousness and carelessness. Myself, I'm leaning toward LIHOP. Hey, they've wanted martial law, had a FEMA plan in place for it - what are they going to do now?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #32
69. And why he admitted we are in Iraq for the Oil
He knows he is untouchable with his brownshirts now in action.

:scared:
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Whew .. those are some scary thoughts.
I can't let myself get too down; then I don't fight for social and economic justice very well.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. It came through loud and clear
and now I know why I have had the heebie jeebies about the entire situation all day.
Thanks for wrapping it up and putting a bow on it.:scared:
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. gives me goosebumps
:scared:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. it is the fact that the Pentagon will be in charge is what scares me.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. I wouldn't want it to happen,
but I honestly wonder sometimes if a military coup will be our best chance of getting something resembling our country back. :(
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durablend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
52. You're not alone in that thought
May be the ONLY way of getting it back
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
85. I wouldn't want it either, but it WILL happen, I think.


The flag level officers are already spitting nails at ehat he's done to the military. And what he's done to the NG and Reserves. They regard the NG and Reserves as just that, backup troops. They are supposed to do the jobs that take the drudgery off the regular army troops: transport and supply duties, etc.

I believe that there are enough patriots in the military that they will become so angry that something will happen. Remember that these officers have put in twenty to thirty years and more in some cases to protect the nation from harm. Now, they see all their sacrifices being reduced to nothing.

You can't do all that without a reaction. Particularly if they are ordered to fire on fellow citizens.

Do I want it to happen? No, of course not. But it may be our only hope in the near future. Particularly if it helps set off the sheeple to rise up and take back their rights.

Well, we can dream, right. They haven't take that right away from us yet. Have they?
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Not allowing the NG to go back to their devastated states
will be the spark to that anger,imo. It's gonna get ugly. :(
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. Got the message and it's damn scary.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm thoroughly spooked. n/t
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SunDrop23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. Gotcha loud and clear.
Good post.
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meisje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. All Bush needs is a hurricane to hit every city
then your conspiracy may come true.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Doesn't have to be a hurricane, any "emergency" would do.
Not sure what you mean by "conspiracy", I'm just pointing out what's been put in place.

sw
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. Um, I get the gist,...I really get it. (((yikes)))
:scared: I don't like it!!!
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. YUP!!
that's what had me freaked all day.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one having these thoughts. (n/t)
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. Bush has been so cheerful and so utterly unconcerned with preparation,
relief, levee sandbagging, ANYTHING. The first report of the major levee break described it as already huge.

Was this LIHOP? Was that levee break natural? Or even if it was not deliberately detonated, was it deliberately allowed to degenerate without being shored up?

The National Guard's first duty is in exactly situations like this. So in addition to getting nice high oil prices and who knows what other benefits from the devastation, Bush has managed to set up a situation where no one can depend on the National Guard really helping with this disaster the way they should. They're in Iraq being shot at. Bush has taken another step in militarizing the Guard, stealing it from the US citizens and turning it into cannon fodder for his illegal foreign war of choice.

I am getting the feeling that there are deliberate aspects to this, LIHOP aspects. Bush looks so happy as he eats his cake and poses with the guitar. The desperate NO mayor, trying to find why the helicopter which was supposed to drop the 3500 pound sandbag into the levee breach never arrived, could not reach the president, who obviously has other priorities. The flood increaed, the nearby pumps broke down, and now the disaster is far greater than it would have been if the levees had been protected.

LIHOP? I am beginning to think so.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Did you see the thread yesterday about how funds for strengthening
the levees around NO were drastically reduced in the latest budget?

There was a great thread about it yesterday, I'm sorry I don't really remember all the details.

I agree with you that the quality of the response to this disaster has been less than adequate. Not sure I'd ascribe it to deliberate malicious intent as opposed to just plain incompetence.

But the misuse of our National Guard is unconscionable, without question.

sw
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
80. Here are a number of threads
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 10:15 AM by Eloriel
and first, two MUST READ articles:

MUST READ: When the levee breaks
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html

Disaster in the Making#
http://www.sfbg.com/38/52/news_fema.html

CNN/New Orleans:"Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breeches" and that's (many links)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4523783

============================================

rethug defunding of disaster planning & emerg. mgmt. aggravated Katrina (several links)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4493298

Hold Bush accountable for the flooding of New Orleans!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2045974
Link: http://www.sfbg.com/38/52/news_fema.html

New Orleans district, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Cut by Bush
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2042880&mesg_id=2042880
Link: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367

I don't get it. All these years and NO FUCKING PLANS????
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4514528

CNN/New Orleans:"Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breeches" and that's
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4482567
Thread title: Bush has slashed Clinton's Disaster Mitigation Program. (unbelievable)
Posted by barbaraann GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 12:23 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042880
Thread title: New Orleans district, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Cut by Bush
Posted by usregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:25 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4490119
Thread title: Bush Cut Hurricane, Flood Protection Funding to New Orleans
Posted by Lori Price CLG GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 09:59 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042922
Thread title: DU media Blast Bush's cuts to U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
sregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:54 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4517048
thread title: Cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers... not a politicization, just
4MoronicYears GD Forum Tue Aug-30-05 08:44 PM

Former mayor of NO on CNN (w/Soledad)
(pleading for help from Bush)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4523454

* to cut vacation short "This is more -- this is more symbolic"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2046243
Link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050830-4.html

Did New Orleans Catastrophe Have to Happen? 'Times-Picayune' Repeatedly
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2047226
Link: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313





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LiberalCompassionate Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. I agree
Bush had that Sylvestor the cat ate Tweety bird look at his "press conference" a few minutes ago. LIHOP exactly.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
48. Bush gave a press conference around midnight?
Even on 9/11, he boasted that he was asleep by 11:30 p.m. Please tell me what went on at the press conference. Thanks.
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LiberalCompassionate Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #48
83. NYC from NJ
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 10:49 AM by LiberalCompassionate
During the extremely rare occasions I actually watch tv, my husband and I were surfing various "news" channels to assess the hurricane damage. During MSNBC's "scarborough country", sometime around 10:30 - 11:00 pm, I'm not sure of the exact time, they broke for a press statement from Bush - he was standing behind a podium with a large military ship behind him as a backdrop, I believe it was a destroyer. He went on to state the "ferocity" of the storm, and blathered about people "workin hard". He looked terrible, similar to the deer in headlights look when his aide told him that the towers were hit, except now he looked like a very tanned, drugged up, self-satisfied deer.

I react very vehemently when I see this POS, so I changed the channel almost immediately; I don't know what else he said or if questions were allowed.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #83
94. Thank you very much.
I can understand your reacton of changing channels rapidly.

So, he didn't really say much. Same happened half an hour ago. An empty speech. NOW they are sending help. A little late, no? Better late than never, but what was the excuse? There really is none.

Military ship as backdrop. What a hero.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
22. I absolutely understand your point, and it terrifies. But why now in NO?
I don't get the motive. Are they anticipating the need to draw guns on hurricane victims? Seriously, it puzzles me.

Mere experiment?

A test of our will?

:shrug:
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Well, I'm not talking about "drawing guns" in this particular situation...
Although if looting got out of hand, who knows?

What I'm attempting to point out is that there's been a rather significant shift in standard disaster response, due to the deployment of the National Guard in a foreign military operation, and the bringing in of Federally-controlled military.

I'm just saying, consider the implications for the BIG picture.

sw
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I understand. It's the "gateway" so to speak
It sets a precedent for future action. Is this what you meant?
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'm just looking at it and thinking "this is not good..." (n/t)
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
53. It is a step toward martial law - control of civilians by the military. nt
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Huge oil infrastructure around NO. But large areas of LA, MS and AL
were devastated, the moreso since the National Guard cannot fulfill its primary mission of providing disaster relief.

That cat that ate the canary expression. He's happy about something, and the timing suggests that it might be related to the Hurricane. If nothing else, he gets a nice hike in oil prices, confirmation that the National Guard is his personal cannon fodder for his wars of choice rather than, well, a national guard, and he gets MAJOR distraction from his various schemes. Which I'm very much afraid include the attack of Iran:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2037110
Thread title: All the pieces are on the board, folks....time to get worried.
(If you haven't already, I recommend reading through this important and very scary thread.)

He's so pleased, with that expression that says he knows he got away with something, scored a coup on us fools. WHY is he so happy? I have a strong feeling that we would hate what it is.

As for the slashed budgets that undercut preparation for this hurricane and the ability to organize relief efforts (especially with OUR National Guard out being killed for Bush), here are some of the threads that talked about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4482567
Thread title: Bush has slashed Clinton's Disaster Mitigation Program. (unbelievable)
Posted by barbaraann GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 12:23 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042880
Thread title: New Orleans district, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Cut by Bush
Posted by usregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:25 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4490119
Thread title: Bush Cut Hurricane, Flood Protection Funding to New Orleans
Posted by Lori Price CLG GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 09:59 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042922
Thread title: DU media Blast Bush's cuts to U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
sregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:54 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2045974
thread title: Hold Bush accountable for the flooding of New Orleans!
saracat GD-P Tue Aug-30-05 04:36 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4517048
thread title: Cuts to the Army Corps of Engineers... not a politicization, just
4MoronicYears GD Forum Tue Aug-30-05 08:44 PM

More LA links in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1738491#1738540
Thread title: WWL: New Orleans Levee Pump Has Failed Completely; Even Uptown will flood.
KeepItReal LBN Tue Aug-30-05 09:00 PM

KEITH OLBERMANN, in his Monday night show, dared to mention the cut in these ciritical, lifesaving funds: Excerpt from the August 29 show transcript on this page: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9133459


(snip)

It is too ironic for words. The expected height of the storm surge was cut in half, meaning Gulfport, Louisiana, was only under 12 feet of water, not 24 or 25, and the windows flying off the skyscrapers of New Orleans like confetti, and the tiles rattling from the roof of the Super Dome, are thus only flying perils, and not signs the buildings might be collapsing.

And Katrina, the category 5 hurricane, was downgraded to category 4. Good news, especially in light of the fact that three months ago, the federal government cut the budget of the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project by 70 percent, and eliminated the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers study to determine how to protect the New Orleans area from a category 5.

(snip)




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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Wow! Many thanks for posting all those links!
If we could get all this out to general public, get them good and pissed off, MAYBE we could finally break through the hypnosis of the American public -- get them to finally *SEE* this criminal junta for what it really is.

sw
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Thanks
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Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. I just sometimes wonder, when studying history...
..how extensively the corporatists in this country have studied the works of the german propaganda machine. In some sense it seems like they really don't want total control like in orwellian circumstances, but just enough control to stay in power and create their 'place in history'. But every day that we lose some 'smaller' freedoms, and that our rights could be completely disbanded simply by being given a label, I begin to really wonder.

Legislating against 'extremism' and other idealistic words is extremely dangerous. Today, anyone criticising the government is called 'radical', 'anti-american', 'traitor', and their speaking out is 'aiding the terrorists'. (Meanwhile, the real proponent of terrorism is the one sitting in the presidential throne - how's that for doublespeak?) Tomorrow, I worry not only what next will be said, but that dissent will soon be punishable. Here, I use 'dissent', even though the majority seems to be indeed against the war now.

Just the changes in america in the past 5 years have been drastic, and I'm not really sure who to look to reverse the insanity.


Here are just a few relevant quotes:




"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. "
-- Hermann Göring, (1893-1946) founder of Nazi Germany's secret police, the Gestapo


"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
-- Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945


“What happened was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to be governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believe that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. ~ The crises and reforms (real reforms too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter. ~ To live in the process is absolutely not to notice it — please try to believe me — unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted.’ ~ Believe me this is true. Each act, each occasion is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow. ~ Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we did nothing) . . . You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.”
-- A German professor describing the coming of fascism in They Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Those quotes are chilling. I'm familiar with the first two but the third
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 12:17 AM by Nothing Without Hope
is new to me and is definitely going into my collection.

Here are some more from my collection that feel relevant here. Especially look at Abraham Lincoln's. Very prescient:


The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

"What luck for rulers, that men do not think. " Adolf Hitler

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good. -Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)

I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the rights of the people by the gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. -James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”
-- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), Welsh philosopher and reformer

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

America's corporate and political elites now form a regime of their own and they're privatizing democracy. All the benefits - the tax cuts, policies and rewards flow in one direction: up. -- Bill Moyers

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. --Edward R. Murrow

"We are naturally divided into two parties: Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes (and) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe ...." -Thomas Jefferson

"Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is force! Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." -- George Washington

It was not desirable that the proles should have strong political feelings. All that was required of them was a primitive patriotism, which could be appealed to whenever it was necessary to make them accept longer working hours or shorter rations. And even when they became discontented, as they sometimes did, their discontent led nowhere, because, being without general ideas, they could only focus it on petty specific grievances. The larger evils invariably escaped their notice. --George Orwell, 1984

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. –Friedrich Nietzsche, philosopher (1844-1900)

"Democracy is an attempt to organize the freedom of the mind against the tyranny of force, money, and superstition." -- Lewis Lapham, a past editor of Harper's magazine

In view of the primitive simplicity of their minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things, but would be ashamed of lies that were too big. Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation in others; yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true. --Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, part I chapter X

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money powers prays upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed." --Abraham Lincoln (1864)

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." --Edward Abbey

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Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
60. Thanks for the quotes
That third one I posted really hit me when I first read it. At the time I had been quite apathetic of what was going on in the world (as we all are guilty of at times), but with help of that I began to see the importance of not turning a blind eye to the things that were happening. We really need to stop accepting the fallacy that the government is separate from the people, and that it is beyond our control. It's essential both the present and the future.
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ticapnews Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
65. They Thought They were Free
http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.


It's chilling to read and compare to today...
Just think of how life was 10 years ago. Not just the big things, but smaller, everyday things. Then think of how they are now.

As you read in the excerpt, we have gone from Step A to Step B to Step C and beyond, with only token resistance. Who knows what step we're at now, or how many more steps are left...

And with each step, fighting the change becomes more difficult...
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. Another voice from the time of the Nazis:
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-30-05 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. You've expressed it quite well...
...and given voice to legitimate concern.
_______

Attention! - This just in from the Ministry of Truth:

The National Guard has *always* been at war with Oceana...

Northcom has *always* been in charge of disaster relief...

Posse Comitatus has *always* been indecipherable...

FEMA has *always* helped us...

France has *always* been our enemy...
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
34. Wasn't 9/11 Head of NORAD now Head of NorthCom?

General Eberhard, isn't that right?
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Oh no - that sounds like the stroke of doom - AND YOU'RE RIGHT:
http://www.oilempire.us/northcom.html

Northern Command (NORTHCOM): The Pentagon's Homeland Defense Agency is commanded by the general who was in charge of defending New York and Washington airspace on 9/11



General Ralph Eberhart, who was in charge of NORAD (air defense) on 9/11, was made the first commander of the new "Northern Command," the domestic unified military command established in October 2002. If the domestic use of the U.S. military escalates into full-scale martial law, the Northern Command would essentially manage it. If 9/11 had been an "intelligence failure," it is likely that General Eberhart would have been court-martialed instead of promoted.

The creation of NORTHCOM announced in April 2002, constitutes a blatant violation of both Canadian and Mexican territorial sovereignty. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld announced unilaterally that US Northern Command would have jurisdiction over the entire North American region. Canada and Mexico were presented with a fait accompli. US Northern Command's jurisdiction as outlined by the US DoD includes, in addition to the continental US, all of Canada, Mexico, as well as portions of the Caribbean, contiguous waters in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans up to 500 miles off the Mexican, US and Canadian coastlines as well as the Canadian Arctic.



The full article referred to has much more to say about Northcom and the militarization of civil institutions from the perspecitive of a Canadian seeing it as part of the neocons' plans to appropriate Canadian airspace and in a sense its sovereignty. Here's the article:
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411C.html

This general Eberard HAD to be in on the conspiracy to call off NORAD for long enough for the planes to reach NYC and the Pentagon, which was a far longer time than it took for being stopped either before 9/11 or after it. If he was part of that conspiracy, then what would he stop at? And THIS is the person in charge of disaster relief instead of OUR National Guard??!!?? HIS tender mercies could not be wished on your worst enemy, and all these helpless, suffering people have only him. No wonder there was so little preparation or aid given. I don't think release from martial law will be fast or complete. And another deadly precedent has now been set. OUR National Guard has been militarized and taken away from their home, where they would interact with the people. Instead we have the man in charge of the 9/11 NORAD call-off.

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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Uh, yeah, that's the one.
And, yes, if 9/11 was an inside job, he would have to have been privy to it. As startling as that is, we should 'reassure' ourselves with the knowledge that there are many people in positions of high office who would had to have been privy to such information for it to have succeeded as it did.

And then there is this strangeness pointed out from another DU thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4520347#4520521

Divernan (1000+ posts) Tue Aug-30-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. YES ! Joe Albaugh, 1 of Bush's campaign managers & nutcase.

This man has a truly violent temper and short trigger to go with it. At one of his first meetings with career FEMA high level staff, one woman who was called on to make a report started out by introducing herself to Albaugh with her name and title. He went ballistic, screaming and raging - DID SHE THINK HE DIDN'T KNOW WHO SHE WAS?!?!?!? HOW DARE SHE PRESUME SUCH A THING??? . . .yada, yada, yada along the same line for minutes to the dead silence of everyone else in the room who had never seen such a display of temper. In other words, someone following standard business etiquette was screamed at and berated in front of her peers.

This was typical behavior for Albaugh, and one result was that many, many of the top level FEMA people left for other jobs or took early retirement because Albaugh wouldn't allow them to do the jobs they were trained to do. This was a tremendous loss of institutional knowledge for the relatively small federal agency. Albaugh hated being at FEMA and left after about a year. Although he had zip experience with disaster relief or any kind of government/public service before his explosive period with FEMA, when he left there he started a very high priced consulting firm on counter-terrorism.
Bush initially put Albaugh in place to gut FEMA - I mean why should all that federal money go to people in trouble and need through some natural disaster. Bush's attitude was that if you weren't wealthy enough to private pay someone to help you handle a disaster, you deserved whatever befell you. Anyway, when 9/11 occurred, he couldn't outwardly gut FEMA, but he pretty much emasculated it by putting it under DHS.



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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Oh. My. God. They used Albaugh to gut FEMA just as Bolton is used to
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 01:26 AM by Nothing Without Hope
gut the UN. It's the typical Bush Administration repeated pattern.

Instead of the National Guard to provide disaster relief to fellow citizens, we have this 9/11 likely co-conspirator who is head of this illegal entity NorthCom with a primary interest in militarizing airspace and civilian authority of all kinds.

Instead of FEMA as a civilian authority, we have it converted to an agent set up with a plan for martial law and far, far too much secret power

Instead of the UN as a tool of international diplomacy to avert wars and adjudicate disputes, we have Bolton - well known to despise the UN and rabidly support war with Iran - immediately derailing UN function.

It's a repeating pattern, and it terrifies me. They are setting up not only to rule the Middle East, but to rule the world as a permanent dictatorship. They have already taken great strides toward this, and our media and our Congress have allowed it to happen with barely a ripple.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. And just like they used the Plame outing and Porter Goss to gut the CIA.
The third part of the trifecta?

Re >>They used Albaugh to gut FEMA just as Bolton is used to gut the UN. It's the typical Bush Administration repeated pattern.<<
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. The media is completely with them. They do not serve us.
Congress is mostly with them -- that or they are so stupid they still haven't grasped the big picture: THEY are quickly becoming IRRELEVANT. They only have a function so long as it is necessary to sustain the illusion of a functioning democratic government.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. The neocons have gutted our constitution just like they're gutting
our treaties, our disaster relief agencies, and the U.N. They're gutting EVERYTHING, so that they can rebuild it in their own (narcissistic) image. They are sociopaths. Psychopaths. And we have a packed dummy legislature (put in by questionable voting machines) set up to help them act like it's democracy as usual, until the day it's all over.

If I was Canada and Mexico, I'd be really pissed.

:kick::kick::kick:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. Note this VITALLY IMPORTANT SENTENCE in the excerpt in this post:
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 02:13 AM by Nothing Without Hope

"If the domestic use of the U.S. military escalates into full-scale martial law, the Northern Command would essentially manage it."


Can you see how we are now closer to this? The militarization and distancing of the National Guard and its replacement by the illegal, Pentagon-controlled NorthCom under the man who oversaw the "accidental" massive multiple failures of air defense during the 9/11 attacks.


General Eberard doesn't seem too interested in saving drowning mostly poor Democrats in the hurricane areas. Do he and Rumsfeld have more "important" plans? And remember, NorthCom is fully controlled by the Pentagon - Congress has basically no say over what it does. The structure for imposing martial law is progressing toward completion. FEMA already has a plan for it - one of the first steps is the disbanding of Congress.
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gasperc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #49
79. this is nutty and I'm a tin-foiler
although I think they will institute some "emergency Measures" to try and restore order and manage the situation. All this shit, $3 gas, 600+ in Iraq TODAY, massive flooding, a certain contraction of the economy with over 2million displaced, economic output in much of the gulf ground to a halt. Yes their stupid decisions have all come back to haunt them and now they are totally overwhelmed.

so there will be some extraordinary measures but I don't think the Pentagor "will take over", well maybe New Orleans.
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JackieO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #34
56. I think Eberhard resigned from NorthCom recently
not sure, but I think I read that somewhere not too long ago
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JackieO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #56
68. Timothy Keating
http://www.northcom.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=s.who_commander

On November 5, 2004, Admiral Timothy J. Keating became the first Navy admiral and the 2nd combatant commander of U.S. Northern Command. He is also the commander of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD). NORAD is the bi-national command with the mission of aerospace warning and aerospace control for Canada, Alaska, and the continental United States. It provides the air defense component for NORTHCOM's operations.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. An interesting and important finding. I wonder what is going on here.
Did they need someone with a cleaner record? What's this guy Keating like, I wonder? I can't stay here long enough to google now but it's a question that needs answering.

I still believe that promoting the man who was responsible for the planes being able to fly to NYC and the Pentagon on 9/11 to NorthCom head is very, very highly suspicious.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #56
81. That would be interesting news if verified.
I'd not heard that.
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
39. If things get dicey, I'm packing my vehicle and heading for the Green
Mountains of the Peoples' Republic of Vermont.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
40. thanks scarletwoman....had been having similar concerns....
also the feeling that *something big* was going to happen...felt like 9/11 but I never felt it was an attack...just something major that affected a LOT of people.....guess this was it. Now I just feel numb, but the sense of something horrible about to happen is gone.


Yeah, when I heard bush could take up to HALF the states Nat'l guard for Iraq, I thought,WTF? And the entire time CNN was spinning these paltry NG numbers I'm thinking this ain't nothing. That few can't do much...and then the whole FEMA thing...well, *chilling* is the best word to describe it......I don't trust any of em....and what the hell is georgie so happy about?:grr:

This is an excellent thread with GREAT info from folks. Thank you. thank you.

:hi: and :hug::loveya:sw
DR
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
42. Well said. Thanks for the nightmares! Lord, are we in trouble. Recommend.
"The Northern Command"...from the same people who brought you "the heartland" (where did that come from ... oh yea, "old Europe").

As I read this, I thought "wow, Rummie put together a Praetorian Guard" and we've got no Ceasar coming home to liberate us.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Oh yeah. Some Praetorian Guard. Here are more of my reasons for fear:
General Eberard may be a traitor who oversaw part of the scheme of the 9/11 attacks as head of NORAD. (It surely is odd that a man who supervised such a claimed utter failure of all defense mechanisms was not cashiered but promoted by the Bush Administration.) Now he is head of "NorthCom," an illegal entity which nevertheless exists and claims rights of territorial sovereignty over Canada and Mexico despite those nations' refusal to agree. The hurricane relief efforts are apparently in General Eberard's tender hands - no wonder it's clear the high-level federal authorities don't give a damn about the people dying.

It also strengthens my suspicions about LIHOP in New Orleans, for example with deliberate failure to see to preparation, protection, organization of relief, and in the handling of the major levee rupture. You'll recall that the NO Mayor tried frantically to reach the President to get the promised helicopter with the 3500 lb sandbag for the levee but couldn't reach him. Then the levee break worsened and, when the nearby levee pump subsequently broke down, the flooding became much, much worse than before. Apparently no one saw the start of that levee break, no sandbagging crews were ever there, though the worst of the storm was past, and then the helicopter which would have helped staunch the flow was somehow misplaced. As a result, much more of New Orleans is seriously flooded and more people will die.

I strongly suspect that a deep investigation would find reasons why the neocon cabal would gain from the great damage to NO and the surrounding areas, things besides the tidy rise in oil prices. The solidification of the precedent that the National Guard has been shipped off and militarized while the Pentagon-controlled NorthCom is in charge of domestic relief efforts and who knows what else - maybe that's part of it too. Maybe it's a step closer to martial law. Maybe it's additional distraction from some other scheme they have planned - like the attack of Iran (see this thread and read it through: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2037110) Whatever it is, Bush is pleased as punch. You can see it clearly in his face.

More on NorthCom - very sinister:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411C.html
(snip)

NorthCom's stated mandate is to "provide a necessary focus for aerospace, land and sea defenses, and critical support for nation’s civil authorities in times of national need."

Rumsfeld is said to have boasted that "the NORTHCOM – with all of North America as its geographic command – 'is part of the greatest transformation of the Unified Command Plan since its inception in 1947.'" (Ibid)

Following Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's refusal to join NORTHCOM, a high-level so-called "consultative" Binational Planning Group (BPG), operating out of the Peterson Air Force base, was set up in late 2002, with a mandate to "prepare contingency plans to respond to threats and attacks, and other major emergencies in Canada or the United States".

The BPG's mandate goes far beyond the jurisdiction of a consultative military body making "recommendations" to government. In practice, it is neither accountable to the US Congress nor to the Canadian House of Commons.

(snip)
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
87. Thanks (I think). This is great info. Everybody should read it.
The military is like Hollywood, make a flop, get a bigger budget next time.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. I've tried to put some of these pieces together at this New Orleans thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4523783
Thread title: CNN/New Orleans:"Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breeches" and that's {only the beginning}:

If you work through it, looking at linked threads, the way this current thread's ideas fit into the picture begins to come into what seems to be a pattern. Please see what you think.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
50. Recommended.
This needs to be on the front page.

:kick::kick::kick:
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dbeach Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
51. the use of FEMA,troops..
is part of the conditioning for the masses to accept seeing more uniforms and weapons in the street..like Spain in the 1970s..many different types of soldiers with various weapons.

busco will be pleased that nobody complains abotu these violations of civil rts..and his goal gets clearer

1984 police state to protect the privleged from the commoners

FEMA may be the good guys for now BUT IF the USA is going fascist then FEMA will reomove their smiley face slippers in the next state sponsored event..
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
54. thank you for this post. base closings also mean troops moved from
where they've become neighbors and friends. i heard one soldier make that comment the other day, and realized the implications on that level. now, reading what you've just outlined, i see it all the more clearly

and horrifyingly

thanks all here, for adding pieces and perspectives.



peace
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #54
62. Oh yes - I've been worried about the implications of the massive shift
& reorganization of the bases ever since it was announced. It's been shown that the stated reason, saving a modest (by military standards) amount of money over 20 years, is a LIE. So what are the REAL reasons?

When I first posted on the newly announced plans to close the bases, I noted immediately from the maps that the moves would constitute a consolidation of military presence in GOP-dominated, mostly bible-belt areas. I have feared from the first that this was another step toward eventual martial law or troops that were less likely to question corrupt orders. It would also make it easier to "protect the country" by stifling dissent. The ACLU has discovered that the FBI has already been labeling affirmative action and antiwar groups as terrorists:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1735413
Thread title: ACLU: FBI labeled peace, affirmative action group 'terrorist'

Here's the initial post announcing the base closings. There are three newspaper reports cited in the OP plus the replies:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1782877&mesg_id=1782877
Thread title: LAT: Military base closings will shift troops to the South- POLITICS!!!

Analyses of some of the base closure plans, for example the one where South Dakota's Ellsworth would be closed and its big bombers moved to Texas (interesting choice of places, eh?), showed that rather than SAVING all that money, the shift would actually COST money. That was part of the reason why the Panel reviewing this recently ruled that this base should remain where it is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2039290
Thread title: LA Times: Ellsworth AF Base in S Dakota to remain open, Thune's ass saved

Yes, all these moves would give lots of money and pork benefits to GOP-dominated places. But I am starting to see these massive movements of domestically based troops and military equipment as part of a long-range plan which includes martial law and much more. We need to be paying attention.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. "We need to be paying attention." yes we do. it's comin'
thank you for all the information you've posted.

so much to realize!! shock.


peace
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
55. Kicked and Nominated!
:kick:
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
57. kick
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
58. You expressed yourself very well
It's chilling indeed.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
59. kick
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Qibing Zero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
61. IMO this should stay at the top.
Some very very nice work coming through with this, and I think it warrants an even larger investigation, as seen in a few offshoots of the discussion already. Scary stuff.
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strike one Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 04:34 AM
Response to Original message
63. CONPLAN 0500 and Strike for Peace
If you take a look at the Pentagon's trilogy - National Security Strategy 2002, National Military Strategy 2004, National Defense Strategy 2005 - all of which are leading up to the phone-book-sized manual for how to rule the world while silencing our own people (the Quadrennial Defense Review due out at the end of the year), none of this should come as a surprise.

It's pretty widely known that the microwave crowd-control weapon, the Active Denial System, is being deployed to military bases near you. All the better to control dissent when Jeb Bush "campaigns" for king in 2008.

All three strategies mentioned above have a start-deployment target date of 2008 to 2010, including the Pentagon's major obsession, the Future Combat Systems program (now in development at more than 300 colleges and universities across America).

This is why I am striking on my campus this year: I have learned wayyy too much about the business of war that keeps America running. It won't matter which party takes power, as some of the most powerful top Democrats are members of the same club of insane businessmen as the neocons - the Project for the New American Century (320 members).

BRAC has nothing to do with downsizing, and everything to do with global deployment. We have 6000 bases in the US, and are up to some 1000 overseas. BRAC is particularly useful for stirring up sentiments among domestic workers, sentiments that keep us from speaking out against the war industry. Outsourcing has caused 310,000 companies to invest in America's war industry, and they will not likely speak out against war anytime soon. I'm conducting a study with Project Censored that has found board members of the media giants also sitting on the boards of many other companies and schools - all of them serving the Pentagon. ALL of them, from Raytheon to Bumble Bee Tuna and PepsiCo.

Since 1950 and the adoption of NSC-68 (launching the Cold War), America's top industry has been the manufacture and sale and use of weapons. We depend on conflict in the world. This is the nature of America today, and the people must demand a change in priority from industry profit to human prosperity before "demand" becomes unthinkable - and before our advancing technology is unleashed.

Below is one of the best articles about this thread. But I urge all of you to join the Strike for Peace Campaign. We know the score, we see the clock ticking down, and we have a strategy for informing the public through a student movement, to create change by popular demand while we can. (Noam Chomsky is an advisor.) By June 2008, I don't think we'll have much chance, so we need to start this year.

You are dedicated people, the kind I need on my team. I hope you will join. The information is not that complex, now that we have it pieced together. But we do need to unite and be bold and assertive as people - and I need help posting such info and spreading the network everywhere. Otherwise we're cogs in the machine forever, and I won't go back to working for something that is terribly wrong.

The best thing we can do is start a nationwide student movement and popularize this kind of information. I have lists for every city on Earth that supplies the military - it's personal when you find that 56 companies in your small town depend on war, including your school.

I will try to post my America Programmed for War paper, which also provides insight.

Best wishes,
Brian Bogart
CampUS Strike for Peace Campaign
September 26, 2005 - June 10, 2006
bbogart@uoregon.edu

Pentagon devising scenarios for martial law in US

By Patrick Martin
9 August 2005

Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author

According to a report published Monday by the Washington Post, the Pentagon has developed its first ever war plans for operations within the continental United States, in which terrorist attacks would be used as the justification for imposing martial law on cities, regions or the entire country.

The front-page article cites sources working at the headquarters of the military’s Northern Command (Northcom), located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The plans themselves are classified, but “officers who drafted the plans” gave details to Post reporter Bradley Graham, who was recently given a tour of Northcom headquarters at Peterson Air Force Base. The article thus appears to be a deliberate leak conducted for the purpose of accustoming the American population to the prospect of military rule.

According to Graham, “the new plans provide for what several senior officers acknowledged is the likelihood that the military will have to take charge in some situations, especially when dealing with mass-casualty attacks that could quickly overwhelm civilian resources.”

The Post account declares, “The war plans represent a historic shift for the Pentagon, which has been reluctant to become involved in domestic operations and is legally constrained from engaging in law enforcement.”

A total of 15 potential crisis scenarios are outlined, ranging from “low-end,” which Graham describes as “relatively modest crowd-control missions,” to “high-end,” after as many as three simultaneous catastrophic mass-casualty events, such as a nuclear, biological or chemical weapons attack.

In each case, the military would deploy a quick-reaction force of as many as 3,000 troops per attack—i.e., 9,000 total in the worst-case scenario. More troops could be made available as needed.

The Post quotes a statement by Admiral Timothy J. Keating, head of Northcom: “In my estimation, a biological, a chemical or nuclear attack in any of the 50 states, the Department of Defense is best positioned—of the various eight federal agencies that would be involved—to take the lead.”

The newspaper describes an unresolved debate among the military planners on how to integrate the new domestic mission with ongoing US deployments in Iraq, Afghanistan and other foreign conflicts. One major document of over 1,000 pages, designated CONPLAN 2002, provides a general overview of air, sea and land operations in both a post-attack situation and for “prevention and deterrence actions aimed at intercepting threats before they reach the United States.” A second document, CONPLAN 0500, details the 15 scenarios and the actions associated with them.

The Post reports: “CONPLAN 2002 has passed a review by the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and is due to go soon to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and top aides for further study and approval, the officers said. CONPLAN 0500 is still undergoing final drafting” at Northcom headquarters.

While Northcom was established only in October 2002, its headquarters staff of 640 is already larger than that of the Southern Command, which overseas US military operations throughout Latin America and the Caribbean.

About 1,400 National Guard troops have been formed into a dozen regional response units, while smaller quick-reaction forces have been set up in each of the 50 states. Northcom also has the power to mobilize four active-duty Army battalions, as well as Navy and Coast Guard ships and air defense fighter jets.

The Pentagon is acutely conscious of the potential political backlash as its role in future security operations becomes known. Graham writes: “Military exercises code-named Vital Archer, which involve troops in lead roles, are shrouded in secrecy. By contrast, other homeland exercises featuring troops in supporting roles are widely publicized.”

Military lawyers have studied the legal implications of such deployments, which risk coming into conflict with a longstanding congressional prohibition on the use of the military for domestic policing, known as posse comitatus. Involving the National Guard, which is exempt from posse comitatus, could be one solution, Admiral Keating told the Post. “He cited a potential situation in which Guard units might begin rounding up people while regular forces could not,” Graham wrote.

Graham adds: “when it comes to ground forces possibly taking a lead role in homeland operations, senior Northcom officers remain reluctant to discuss specifics. Keating said such situations, if they arise, probably would be temporary, with lead responsibility passing back to civilian authorities.”

A remarkable phrase: “probably would be temporary.” In other words, the military takeover might not be temporary, and could become permanent!

In his article, Graham describes the Northern Command’s “Combined Intelligence and Fusion Center, which joins military analysts with law enforcement and counterintelligence specialists from such civilian agencies as the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service.” The article continues: “A senior supervisor at the facility said the staff there does no intelligence collection, only analysis. He also said the military operates under long-standing rules intended to protect civilian liberties. The rules, for instance, block military access to intelligence information on political dissent or purely criminal activity.”

Again, despite the soothing reassurances about respecting civil liberties, another phrase leaps out: “intelligence information on political dissent.” What right do US intelligence agencies have to collect information on political dissent? Political dissent is not only perfectly legal, but essential to the functioning of a democracy.

The reality is that the military brass is intensely interested in monitoring political dissent because its domestic operations will be directed not against a relative handful of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists—who have not carried out a single operation inside the United States since September 11, 2001—but against the democratic rights of the American people.

The plans of Northcom have their origins not in the terrible events of 9/11, but in longstanding concerns in corporate America about the political stability of the United States. This is a society increasingly polarized between the fabulously wealthy elite at the top, and the vast majority of working people who face an increasingly difficult struggle to survive. The nightmare of the American ruling class is the emergence of a mass movement from below that challenges its political and economic domination.

As long ago as 1984—when Osama bin Laden was still working hand-in-hand with the CIA in the anti-Soviet guerrilla war in Afghanistan—the Reagan administration was drawing up similar contingency plans for military rule. A Marine Corps officer detailed to the National Security Council drafted plans for Operation Rex ’84, a headquarters exercise that simulated rounding up 300,000 Central American immigrants and likely political opponents of a US invasion of Nicaragua or El Salvador and jailing them at mothballed military bases. This officer later became well known to the public: Lt. Colonel Oliver North, the organizer of the illegal network to arm the “contra” terrorists in Nicaragua and a principal figure in the Iran-Contra scandal.

As for the claims that these military plans are driven by genuine concern over the threat of terrorist attacks, these are belied by the actual conduct of the American ruling elite since 9/11. The Bush administration has done everything possible to suppress any investigation into the circumstances of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—most likely because its own negligence, possibly deliberate, would be exposed.

While the Pentagon claims that its plans are a response to the danger of nuclear, biological or chemical attacks, no serious practical measures have been taken to forestall such attacks or minimize their impact. The Bush administration and Congress have refused even to restrict the movement of rail tank cars loaded with toxic chemicals through the US capital, though even an accidental leak, let alone a terrorist attack, would cause mass casualties.

In relation to bioterrorism, the Defense Science Board determined in a 2000 study that the federal government had only 1 of the 57 drugs, vaccines and diagnostic tools required to deal with such an attack. According to a report in the Washington Post August 7, in the five years since the Pentagon report, only one additional resource has been developed, bringing the total to 2 out of 57. Drug companies have simply refused to conduct the research required to find antidotes to anthrax and other potential toxins, and the Bush administration has done nothing to compel them.

As for the danger of nuclear or “dirty-bomb” attacks, the Bush administration and the congressional Republican leadership recently rammed through a measure loosening restrictions on exports of radioactive substances, at the behest of a Canadian-based manufacturer of medical supplies which conducted a well-financed lobbying campaign.

Evidently, the administration and the corporate elite which it represents do not take seriously their own warnings about the imminent threat of terrorist attacks using nuclear, chemical or biological weapons—at least not when it comes to security measures that would impact corporate profits.

The anti-terrorism scare has a propaganda purpose: to manipulate the American people and induce the public to accept drastic inroads against democratic rights. As the Pentagon planning suggests, the American working class faces the danger of some form of military-police dictatorship in the United States.

See Also:
US Congress votes to make Patriot Act permanent
<1 August 2005>

Copyright 1998-2005
World Socialist Web Site
All rights reserved
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strike one Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Can't post article
Sorry, I guess I'm not old enough to post my article yet. Is there any way someone can be waived in so they can post?

Guess I'll try again tomorrow.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. Welcome to DU! It's not your age, it's the number of posts you have.
It's a way to control the constant infestation of freepers who join DU and then start posting abuse - some of it truly sickening - and trying to disrupt threads with misinformation and distractions. I don't know how many posts it takes nowadays for someone to be able to start their own thread. That information is kept confidential so that the freepers won't just run up their number with meaningless short posts til they reach the magic number.

I suggest you post a link and excerpt of your article in this thread; you shouldn't post the entire thing if it is long. If people are interested, one of them should be willing to start a thread for you with your article. Once the thread is started, you can post in it all you want.

Hope this makes sense - at this point my brain is mush.

Again, welcome to DU - you sound like you have important things to tell us.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #64
73. Do you mean you can't start a thread? I will post it for you
and say it is from you. Tell me here what you what to post
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
72. Plans to allow New Orleans to be damaged by storms and floods may date
back at least several years, judging by the massive cuts or blocks in project/grant funds to protect the city or provide disaster relief. In addition to the other threads I and others have posted on how the Bush Administration cut funding for disaster protection and relief, here's a new one. So far it only has 3 votes, and it's buried in the Editorial Forum - it deserves a wider audience:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x151655
Thread title: 9/28/04 La should have received FEMA disaster mitigation grants, but got 0
paineinthearse Editorials Tue Aug-30-05 12:25 PM

Even just the excerpt given in the OP shows that this is a long-term policy of the Bush Administration. No explanation for denial of the funds was given. The money still went to places like Texas and California, but despite all evidence suggesting that they should be first in line, NOTHING for New Orleans. it's more than an outrage, it's more evidence suggesting a conspiracy of some kind. (see this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4519574&mesg_id=4522199
Thread title: Think about the implications of this: Nat'l Guard in Iraq, NorthCom HERE.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. oops - too late to edit - I should have omitted the 2nd link in my post
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 08:05 AM by Nothing Without Hope
because it refers to THIS THREAD. So please ignore that one.
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RogerARTcom Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
75.  Help Build, One/Global/Community 4 Times Like This
Help Build, One/Global/Community 4 Times Like This

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Thank U, Roger@OneGlobalCommunity.com
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Im with Rosey Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
76. Once again, Thanks to DUers
As always, I can rely on critical information to be openly discussed and clearly explained. So many of us think we are well-informed and then we must rise to the next level of understanding. You have made such valid and important points, I don't know whether to be outraged, scared, or just downright depressed. I guess I will go with outraged and spread the info far and wide.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
77. I am going to vehemently disagree with these conspiracy theories
NORTHCOM's purpose is HOMELAND security, aiding first responders and working with state, city and local authorities during natural disasters. It is their mission and function--the reason they exist. They were plussed up and put online mainly out of fear of a biological, chemical or radiological attack in the post 911 environment, but the other mission aspects are also important, integral, and trained for.

Quite frankly, I would prefer to have a coordinated entity doing the work, rather than a bunch of well-meaning volunteers or disjointed NG units, some trained better than others, some more enthusiastic than others, during an emergency of this magnitude.

Since NO is to be evacuated and the population dispersed, that will be their first priority. Second priority will be to try to stop the water, reverse the flow, clean up the toxic waste, and get the coffins and corpses floating around back where they belong. Next, clean up, restoration of power, sewage, and so forth. Only then can rebuilding begin.

It's a horrible job. I do not envy them.

I have friends who work at NORTHCOM. They're Democrats, FWIW.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
78. sobering observations
this trend has been underway for a while, Posse Comitatus has been on it's way out. Findings from the Seattle WTO protests showed that lines between military and law enforcement were being dangerously blurred. It is probably worth noting also that this was before W and 9/11.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
82. Before the last election, shrub wanted to use the military to
police America. He asked a team of lawyers to explain "why he could not use the military as a domestic police force".

It looks like they may have found a way to circmvent the law.....again.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #82
93. Do you have any links to articles about that? It fits. And I invite you
to work through the following thread on the New Orleans situation with all the ideas in THIS thread in your mind. There are some more pieces of the picture there:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4523783
Thread title: CNN/New Orleans:"Mayor blasts failure to patch levee breeches" and that's {only the beginning}:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
88. This afternoon's press conference
should reinforce your concerns.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
90. kick
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
91. The neocons may be PLEASED at Nat'l Guard recruitment shortfalls:
Edited on Wed Aug-31-05 02:56 PM by Nothing Without Hope
What if the neocons are secretly PLEASED that National Guard recruitment is down? What if they have intended all along to send them out of the country, use them up, and throw them away? If there IS no more National Guard - for I believe it would no longer exist as a separate entity if they could get away with this - then there will be no way to complain that the US civilian population is under the "protection" of Pentagon-directed regular military troops. ALL troops would be under the control of the Pentagon.

OUR National Guards have been badly abused, sent out to die in an immoral war without a mission or even body armor. No wonder they seem like just cannon fodder to the neocons. THEY ARE.

Let's consider this further. What are signs pointing to this? What are implications?

One connected issue: THE DRAFT

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