Green party key to pres victory.

[marshmellow]

The rigged electronic voting machines need a third party to shift votes to. A Green party candidate for president can easily absorb several million votes nationwide without anybody getting suspicious.

That will be an "in your face" from the right come Nov 2004 when GW gets a majority of votes.

Tell the Green party to focus on local elections and save democracy.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. They won't and they are adamant about it

They think that the 100 positions they have been elected to in college towns to city council translates to the top office in the nation. It's like saying I bought a row boat, now I'm going to sail around the world...problem is everyone drowns with them.

I realize college students will vote for greens but college students will also vote for legalizing Ecstacy and state sponsored RAVE parties.

[Iverson]

2. wrong

"They think that the 100 positions they have been elected to in college towns to city council translates to the top office in the nation."

Wrong.

"I realize college students will vote for greens ..."

Yes, you've been promoting this caricature even well after having been corrected about it. Therefore, I must repeat to you: by your logic, the same dismissive snipe should be made about Democrats upon discovery that they are popular at some colleges.

What you don't appear to be willing to utter is that people out of college will also vote for Greens, as will people who never went. People who are in their 30s, 40s, 50, 60s, 70s, 80s, will vote for Greens.

Tell me again how stupid and evil we all are immediately prior to demanding my vote. That'll help!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I'm not going to demand your vote

After this recall is over, I am getting out of politics. You win.

[Iverson]

4. most frustrating

I do not want you to get out of politics, and I certainly would not consider that a victory.

A victory to me would be getting a little civility and maybe some recognition of common ground.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. A little recognition of common ground would have my state

firmly in the Dem column since there are more liberals than conservatives. I realize that 16% of Dems are supporting Arnold and have LOADS of disgust with them as well..I am equal opportunity when it comes to a MORONIC vote for a guy who has threatened to govern by ballot proposition which means POORLY thought out policy.

The fact IS there will always be a certain percentage of people swayed by pomp and glamour.

Peter Camejo was out on the trail helping Republicans get those recall petitions signed. It means nothing that the Green party is against the recall now. They helped bring it to fruition.

And I am gla you consider me a loss but I am exhausted and beat. I'm getting out. It is pointless. I too will let it get worse. Nader has enrolled me in his strategy WORSE is better. As a logic professor perhaps you can explain that logic to me.

[Terwilliger]

7. Bustamante endorsed the recall by participating in it

How many Latinos will be voting YES on the recall just because they equate that with wanting to vote for Cruz? How many more precious votes against the Republican scourge caused by Democrats?

If you want to focus on Camejo instead of the Dems voting AHH-nold...well that would be nothing new from Democrats I've seen. Whatever else, I can't stand that you folks call yourselves democrats...democracy bites you folks in the ass and suddenly you don't like it anymore.

It looks like Democrats are republicans...you believe in the two-party system and you believe in being in charge. And if folks don't vote for you they're traitors, or elitists, or whatever.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. That's the shove it up your ass attitude that now has me realize

my efforts are wasted. Thanks for confirming my decision. If you recall, I was against Bustamante entering so mine is the wrong ass to shove that up but it doesn't stop you from doing so.

Yeah..I like democracy just fine when it isn't rigged.

Don't blame the two party system on me..I was born into it.

I guess the only satisfaction I have is that with your strategy you lose too.


I have no doubt that when many greens finally graudate from college and get a real job, they will then register Republican. Their faulty selfish political strategy will morph into a faulty selfish economic strategy for self preservation and righteousness.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. I'm also the one doing the foot work...smart move..kill me off

[Terwilliger]

37. `kill you off'?

I didn't think you were someone prone to hysterics

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. I knew you were someone prone to insults

Guess I just didn't think you would personally whip them out on me..now I know.

[Terwilliger]

44. You insult me every freaking day with your Green hatred

now I'm "insulting" you? Give me a damn break

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

122. I think I should probably go vote for YES/Camejo now

since I see what Democrats in California seem to be all about

[Le Taz Hot]

137. Whoh!

Thanks for painting us ALL with the same broad stroke. Jaysus!

[Terwilliger]

139. Sorry Taz

it gets frustrating here...it ain't easy leaning Green

[Evil_Dewers]

17. You are such a patriot, Terwilliger.

All Democratic (progressive and liberal) Californians would like to thank you and Mr. Iverson and Mr. Camejo but most especially the Green party for help making Arnold Schwarzengrabber the next Gub-a-ner of Khal-i-forn-ya. Thank you so much.

I'm moving to Canada.

[Terwilliger]

25. GOODBYE

you can't get over your own party's failures...how pathetic! PATHETIC!!

[Evil_Dewers]

28. Goodbye?

You are sabbotaging my party.

Guess what Flush Rimshot is talking about on his show?

He's talking about the fact that Wesley Clark is not a registered Democrat and that he praised Bush and Powell and Condi back in March of 2001.

I'm convinced Rush is on drugs--he sounds like a Green.

[Terwilliger]

36. HE SHOULD...ITS A VALID QUESTION

you should decide what party you belong

[sangh0]

39. Defending Rush now?

How shameless. How idiotic

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

73. complete and utter crap

The fact that Clark is still an (I) even though he's running for the Dem nomination is a completely valid topic.

[Evil_Dewers]

74. Rush Limpballs agrees with you.

But, then again, he's on drugs.

[ulysses]

77. an inspiring response

:eyes:

[sangh0]

78. So why the need to cite Rush?

Logic suggest that if it's "a completely valid topic", then there's no need to lean on Rush.

[ulysses]

80. Evil_Dewers is the one who cited Limbaugh

Ask him.

[Evil_Dewers]

84. Rush today

didn't mention his drug problem but he did mention that Clark praised ChimpCo in March 2001 and is like 96% of registered Arkansans--he's not registered with a party affiliation.

A Green started what became a 200 post thread about this yesterday.

I'll bet Clinton wasn't a registered DEM until 1996.

[ulysses]

88. ok...

but he did mention that Clark praised ChimpCo in March 2001 and is like 96% of registered Arkansans--he's not registered with a party affiliation.

96% sounds a little iffy - got a link? And does the fact that pigboy said it make it incorrect?

I'll bet Clinton wasn't a registered DEM until 1996.

Pull stuff out of your ass often?

[Evil_Dewers]

98. Pulled out of my ass...

> Clark's Lack of Party Affiliation Normal
>
> By DAVID HAMMER
> Associated Press Writer
> http://tinyurl.com/pi5p
>
> October 2, 2003, 4:31 PM EDT
>
> LITTLE ROCK, Ark. -- Wesley Clark is typical of many voters in
> Arkansas. When he registered to vote, he declared no
> party affiliation.
>
> snip
>
> Clark spokeswoman Kym Spell said Thursday that Clark will declare
> himself a Democrat with a form awaiting his signature at his Little
> Rock, Ark.,
> headquarters.
>
> "A piece of paper doesn't make you a Democrat," Spell said. "Wesley
> Clark is a real Democrat, and this is simply a tactic that the other
> guys are using to distract Americans from the real issues."
>
>snip
> Only 4.4 percent of Arkansas' 1.5 million voters have declared any
> political party, said Janet Miller, the secretary of state's deputy
> for elections.
>

I've read that you couldn't even declare party affiliation in Arkansas until 1996.

[ulysses]

99. hope that didn't hurt too much

A little nugget from what you snipped out:

But Clark is no longer a typical voter. He is one of 10 Democrats seeking the party's presidential nomination and his lack of political affiliation is proving somewhat embarrassing as he fends off rivals who question his Democratic credentials.

[Evil_Dewers]

101. More brown nuggets

Clark spokeswoman Kym Spell said Thursday that Clark will declare himself a Democrat with a form awaiting his signature at his Little Rock, Ark., headquarters.

"A piece of paper doesn't make you a Democrat," Spell said. "Wesley Clark is a real Democrat, and this is simply a tactic that the other guys are using to distract Americans from the real issues."

Pulaski County records show that Clark registered to vote in 2002, casting a ballot in the Democratic primary and then voted in the general election. Before 2002, Clark said he was registered in nearby Saline County while serving in the military...

[ulysses]

103. sorry, but it's more than a little paper formality

when you're running for the presidential ticket. Not a deal-breaker, but not breathtaking in its wisdom either.

[Evil_Dewers]

105. Go Braves.

I hate the Cubs more than the Greens.

[ulysses]

107. that's certainly germane.

You only get better with time, don't you?

[Evil_Dewers]

109. You accuse me of pulling facts out of my ass

and demand a link and I attempt to satisfy your demand with a Newsweek article and praise the team you have an icon of in your signature line as a peace offering and you point out that my message was not germaine.

"You only get better with time, dont you?"

If that was an attempt at sarcasm, please use the appropriate smiley. ;)

[ulysses]

114. the sarcasm was directed at the baseball response.

But I was right. You *do* get, if not better, more amusing with time.

[Evil_Dewers]

116. Remember when the Marlins spanked the Bravos in 1997 playoffs?

Sure you do. The Marlins won the World Series. If the Bravos can get past the Cubs, I'd like to see a repeat of 1997.

[ulysses]

117. no answer on Clark's credentials

so you want to talk baseball? Go start a lounge thread.

[Evil_Dewers]

123. I don't give a rat's ass about Clark's credentials

at the moment.

I'm a Deanie.

But I'll be damned if I allow some Greens to think they can dictate to the Democratic party who our candidate will be by making up bullshit radical left wing conspiracy lies about Clark and claiming he is a trojan horse candidate by offering defamatory (and false) counterpunch and blogspot articles.

Let the Limpballs of the world attack Clark. If he's a closet Rethug, it will come out eventionally (before he gets the nomination).

[ulysses]

124. yes, well, whatever.

But I'll be damned if I allow some Greens to think they can dictate to the Democratic party who our candidate will be by making up bullshit radical left wing conspiracy lies about Clark and claiming he is a trojan horse candidate by offering defamatory (and false) counterpunch and blogspot articles.

Knock yourself out. Meantime, I'm a leftwing Democrat who has serious issues with Clark, much as I'll give the man kudos where deserved. When you're ready to talk, let me know.

[sangh0]

86. Ask him?

Do I have to? :-)

[ulysses]

89. no

God only knows what kind of response you'd get. Still, he (or she) would be the one to ask.

[Evil_Dewers]

48. Rush Limbaugh on drugs

sounds like a Green.

[Iverson]

57. do not be ignorant and offensive

To those who have actually taken the time to ask, as opposed to lashing out with their unthinking caricatures, I have expressed a position of being strenuously against this recall in California. Further, the position of the Green Party is also against the recall.

If you have some need to campaign against me as an individual, then make your case to the moderators and administrators.

So far, your case does not inspire respect.

[Cheswick2.0]

120. stop the bullshit rhetoric

no one has ever demanded your vote. That is so childish and it doesn't help. Be an oposition party, but don't be expected to be treated as if that isn't what the Green party is. You really can't have it both ways.
Policy wise I agree with many of the things you care about. But the Green party stategy sucks.

[Iverson]

128. stop the lowbrow apologia

As you leap to the defense of the college student caricature, remember that there is such a thing as a subtext. Even I have a limit to patience.

[ButterflyBlood]

18. and what's wrong with those last two?

:)

[BloodyWilliam]

112. ...

No ill will, but I feel the need to give you a big old fsck you for that remark. :mad:

[Terwilliger]

5. oh save yourself

ARE GREENS IN A POSITION TO INITIATE ELECTION REFORM???? WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE DEMOCRATS?!?!?!?!

[John_H]

8. Time for a little Green Math Recap

2.7%-(the significant number who have come back to the dem party after realizing what they enabled in 2000)-(the huge number who live in states we'll win handily)-(the small number who live in states we'll win handily. If Dean wins the nomination you can also subtract the significant number of Greens who would choose Dean over Fidelity Ralph to be their president.

This paltry percentage of Green votes that could effect a state's outcome woouldn't help Diebold and Chimpy steal the election. If they're going to manufacture Green votes, they'll do it.

I'm sure he's already thought about it, but Gray Area Ralph should contact Bush and offer to accept all bogus votes as long as the number of votes allows him to get matching funds. He can also further his bizarre vision for america: Enabling republicans to make things so bad, that even a compulsively lying, corporate criminal profiting, megalomaniacal authoritarian seems to us all an improvement. LOL.

Seriously, Relax. Thanks to Ralph's own antics, the greens are dead in the water. They even admit they're loosing, not gaining, members.(And I know for a fact that most of their few paid staffers know they're toast and are looking for jobs) They will have the added attractive feature of being essentally gone after ralph leads them to a one-percent debacle in 2004.

Focus your efforts on beating chimpy by a margin that neither (re)publican ralph nor Diebold can affect.

[Terwilliger]

14. if they'd done that originally

then maybe they wouldn't blame Ralph for losing, since your own assertion is that his influence was so paltry in the first place

So John, did you instruct the poster as to why the Democrats lost in 2000?

Oh, by the by John...

http://www.gp.org/press/pr_11_01_02.html

Where do the Greens say that they're losing members?

[John_H]

131. Sorry Terwilliger,

they don't post the bad news on the website. They only tell their friends and the people to whom they send their resumes the truth.

[WhosNext]

9. Get out of here with your green crap!

[no name no slogan]

61. Nice attitude

So glad you're part of the party with an attitude like that. Some big tent, eh? :eyes:

[DerekG]

111. Get off Terwilliger's f@#king back...

Jeebus, blaming Nader for the 2000 debacle has worn out its welcome.

[JVS]

10. Isn't this thread a violation of the rules?

4. If you wish to start a vanity thread (ie: a discussion thread in which the sole purpose is to share your personal opinion) you must state your opinion in a non-inflammatory manner which respects differences in opinion and facilitates actual discussion.

You have presented your tinfoil conspiracy theory as fact and not as your own opinion. And insinuating that a party, which some DUers support is accomplice to vote fraud is inflamatory.

[noiretextatique]

60. it is a violation of the new rules, as i recall

perhaps it will be (mercifully) locked soon.

[Tinoire]

11. And what shall we tell the Democratic Party?

To keep counting on votes we refuse to earn and then bitch about it because people won't just "fork them over" to us?

How about we just shut up for a change and work at DOING what it takes to save democracy and earn those votes?

The Greens have already shown they are perfectly willing to work with us but they are not going to blindly support anyone but a progressive candidate.

The only difference between the Greens and the Progressive Democrats is that Progressive Democrats are still hoping the Party will come to its senses and DO something progressive. The only difference is on which side of the line of disgust you stand.

[Evil_Dewers]

20. The Greens are not going to blindly support anyone but a progressive

Then we all may lose again. Thank you, Greens. The job market sucks ass right now. Go to grad school and then get your PhD so you can be making espressos at Starbucks for $6.50 and hour in 2009 with the jackbooted Jeb Bush administration crushing your head.

[Tinoire]

65. Get OVER it ALREADY! They're a SEPARATE PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to the Centrist Democrats who have insisted on going Republican lite, the Greens are a separate Party!

If you want to bitch at someone, go bitch at the DEMOCRATS who keep voting Republican, go bitch at the Democrats who don't vote, go bitch at the people who aren't even registered to vote, go bitch at the Independents who don't know what the hell they are, of go bitch at the Democratic HAWKS for persisting in their mad course of continuing to go Republican lite and losing voters.

For Christ's sake QUIT bitching at the Greens!

Here they are, telling you they will support us if we get a Progressive in office yet all people can do is bitch, bitch, bitch that they won't fork over their vote to just any old candidate. There is absolutely NO reason they should have to compromise their vote.

Sheesh! Let's start dealing with a little reality over here.

I am sick of the juvenile insults and insults against the Greens. Have you nothing better to do with whatever God-given talents the Creator gave you?

If I were a Green and I had to deal with crap like your atttitude all day, I'd just tell you to KMA and take your party off the cliff where it's headed.

[Evil_Dewers]

72. Thank you for that lucid, mature response, Mr. Green Jeans. n/t

[Evil_Dewers]

23. You drag the Democratic party to the left of Kucinich

and we all lose anyway.

[Terwilliger]

26. to the left of Kucinich????????????

The party can barely maintain the leftness of John Kerry...which aint very "left" as it is

[noiretextatique]

12. shouldn't the rigged voting machines be your concern?

i am always surprised by the SUPPORT democrats give to republican disenfranchisement schemes in their zeal to vilify greens.

[Capn Sunshine]

13. We have too much in common

and share too many common goals for this intellectual sniping to be productive.

A significant number of Greens re-register to vote Democratic at Dean meetups every first Wednesday fo the moneth, feeling their voices are best served there. Give it a try.
http://www.meetup.com

[MadHound]

16. Running scared there already eh?

Pre-blaming for an '04 debacle. Man you folks are pathetic, blame Greens for the '00 mess(when it is patently obvious the Greens had nothing to do with it), blaming the Greens for the CA mess currently(LOL), and now laying the groundwork for blaming us in '04. Damn, who would you folks blame if the Greens weren't around, the Socialists? It is simply getting ridiculous how the Dems blame everything and everybody else except the correct ones.

Sorry, but Greens are a political party like any other(except their a hell of lot cleaner). They can run candidates in ANY race they feel like, from dogcatcher to govenor to president. Don't like it? TS! Deal with it.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

27. and Americans believe that Saddam was linked with 9/11

SO I GUESS THAT MAKES IT TRUE

[Evil_Dewers]

30. The majority of people here don't believe the Saddam 9/11 link.

We are a much smarter segment of the American population. Well, except for the Greenies amongst us.

[Terwilliger]

34. you're purposefully evasive

no wonder you're a Democrat

[Evil_Dewers]

47. Your posts are deceptive and your actions are somewhat creepy

just like Ralph Nader. Notice I just described your actions--not you personally.

No wonder you are a Green.

[MadHound]

35. Son, I am home, you're the newbie around here!

Let me go through this slowly so you will understand.

First, tell me that the Supremes didn't have a hand in deciding who to put in the White House.

Second, tell me that Katherine Harris and Jebbie Bush didn't steal the right to vote from 90,000+ mostly Dem voters.

Third, tell me that Greg Palast didn't inform the Gore campaign WHILE THE RECOUNT WAS STILL GOING ON about the above mentioned votescam scandal. And did Gore and his DLC handlers do anything about it? Hell no! Nice spine in that campaign there.

Fourth, tell me that Gore didn't piss off 398,000 registered FL Dems and 197,000 self described FL liberals with his enviromental policies. Pissed them off to the point that they decided to double screw him and voted for Bush. And don't tell me that these were left over Dixiecrats and such. The Dixiecrats and Reagan Dems all registered 'Pug a long time ago. Gee, if Gore had pissed off ten percent less of these people, he would have won!

So if you are still thinking that Greens "stole" the election, I suggest you go read some Palast and Hightower. They will lay out all of the Dems mistakes and foibles of the '00 all in plain language.

And don't be telling the Greens to go home. Go read the rules, DU is for Dems and progressives of all stripes. You don't like that, tough shit, deal with it.

[Evil_Dewers]

51. You don't need to go through it slowly.

Since you are a Green, please allow me to explain something to you (slowly).

A

Vote

For

Ralph

Was

A

Lost

Vote

For

Gore

And

The

Greens

Helped

Elect

George

Dubya

Bush

Because

Gore

Would

Have

Won

Three

More

States

Including

Florida

If

One

Third

Of

The

Greens

Voted

For

Gore

Instead

Of

Ralph

And

A

President

Gore

Would

Not

Have

Lied

And

Manipulated

Intelligence

About

Iraq

And

Started

A

War

Which

Killed

And

Maimed

Thousands

And

Cost

150

Billion

Dollars

And

A

President

Gore

Would

Not

Allow

More

Filth

To

Be

Belched

Into

The

Sky

Or

Dumped

Into

Our

Waters

And

Gore

Would

Not

Have

Signed

A

Ban

On

Abortion

Or

Borrowed

Billions

From

Us

To

Give

Billionaires

Three

Tax

Cuts

And

A

President

Gore

Would

Not

Be

Citing

9

11

To

Drill

Holes

In

ANWR.

[StopTheMorans]

52. I know I've said this before

but you are extremely condescending in many of your posts, and it really makes you seem petty and childish. Why don't you just argue your points with facts instead of with deranged barbs that you perceive to be witty? I'm not a green, I'm a dem (for Dean), and I will continue to vote dem, but you're really not improving the quality of discussion with posts like these, everyone of them is a mini-flame war starter in and of itself. Try civil, intelligent discourse, you'll win more arguments, get more people to listen to you, and possibly make a few more friends.

[Iverson]

55. Thank you for writing that.

n/t

[StopTheMorans]

53. I know I've said this before

but you are extremely condescending in many of your posts, and it really makes you seem petty and childish. Why don't you just argue your points with facts instead of with deranged barbs that you perceive to be witty? I'm not a green, I'm a dem (for Dean), and I will continue to vote dem, but you're really not improving the quality of discussion with posts like these, everyone of them is a mini-flame war starter in and of itself. Try civil, intelligent discourse, you'll win more arguments, get more people to listen to you, and possibly make a few more friends.

[sangh0]

56. I disagree with stoptheinsandity

on almost everything, but s/he's right on this one, Evil Dewars. That last post was extrememly annoying, and inconsiderate of those who connect using a dial-up.

[StopTheMorans]

58. hey, we agreed once before on Libertarians!

other than that, you're right:)

[Evil_Dewers]

64. Dial-Up

Hitch a ride and cross that bridge to the 21st century and get DSL or a cable modem.

Greens, greens
Good for your heart
The more you eat
The more you fart
Greens

I'll attempt to be less annoying in the future.

[no name no slogan]

97. WTF, are you 12 years old or something?

Better make sure mom doesn't catch you posting stuff like that, junior. You may have to go to bed at 9:00 pm tonight. :eyes:

[Evil_Dewers]

100. 12 year olds can accuse adults of all sorts of bad things

which allegedly occur on the internet each day.

[no name no slogan]

119. You didn't answer the question

Instead you related one of your life experiences.

Judging by your half-baked reasoning and poorly-thought-out responses to reasonable questions, I must ask you, once again, sincerely: are you 12 years old, or what?

Please answer without referring to bodily functions or other scatological terminology which your mother would frown upon you using. Or else you'll definately not get to watch WWE RAW this week.

:nuke:

[Evil_Dewers]

125. I am 12 years * 3 + 1

That was a great smackdown, no name, no face, no thought. ;)

BTW, you "flame" me with worse crap than you accused me of using.

The "are you 12 years old" accusation has been used millions of times since Al Gore invented the internet.

[Evil_Dewers]

59. Reading this is like Deja Vu all over again.

OK, as long as the Greens and St. Ralph don't fuck us Dems again, I won't hate them.

But just yesterday a Greenie told me not to ignore his concerns or he'd fuck us again.

So can you understand my contempt for the Greens?

They have no empathy for half the country.

[StopTheMorans]

63. I have to admit that I have engaged in my fair share

of Green-baiting and Nader hating in my time, I won't deny this. BUT, to continually treat people who used to be or are still are (although some won't admit it, I'm convinced many will vote dem. next time) as children who cannot be reasoned with while using invective that should be directed against the right-wing does nothing to further the discourse. IMHO, Iverson was not flaming or making any points here that were unreasonable (Terwilliger I sometimes have a little trouble with because he/she is ardent about his/her beliefs, but so am I, and I feel that he/she should be treated with the same respect I would like to receive tho' we disagree on many points), yet you insisted on flaming both of them without engaging in any meaningful dialogue. I can't remember if it's Kosher to put people's names in posts, but I just wanted to do it to illustrate that even though others may hold a different version of the same general philosophy (and differ about the degree in which to pursue it), they shouldn't be treated as lesser people, although I do hope we get their votes for the nominee:)

[Selwynn]

79. The guy is an idiot, just ignore it

I ingored this clown yesterday, and now in three separate threads I've been in I see this:

Ingored
---Oh my god how can you say that???
---- Ingored
--- that is totally uncalled for
--- ignored
---what a horrible thing to say!

Etc, etc....

So just do what I did. Makes like a lot better.

[Evil_Dewers]

87. Ignored

Aren't you the one who said we should be kind to Rush Limbaugh?

100 DUers told you to STFU.

I guess I'm pissing in the wind here. You have me on ignore.

[no name no slogan]

94. How would a Green "fuck you"?

The Greens are an organized political party, just like the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Natural Law, etc. They have elected representatives at many levels of local and state government, and NOT just in "college towns" as you proclaimed previously.

A Green party member/supporter no more "owes" his vote to you and the Democrats than a Republican or a Libertarian does. Yes, you may share many concerns and issues with her/him, just like you may with a Republican or Libertarian, but that does not entitle you (or your party) to his/her vote.

As a matter of fact, it's really quite presumptuous of you to assume that, just because somebody agrees with you on a few issues, your candidate deserves their vote. In this country, a person can vote for whomever s/he damn well pleases, regardless of who that is. If this disturbs you, maybe you should go to another country where your vote is "pre-chosen" for you.

:eyes:

[MadHound]

92. Apparently I do have to go through it slowly

Because you keep repeating the same old disproven shit time and again. And this time in an irritaiting, time and band-width consuming manner. How cute.

Look, I tell you what. You go read some Palast and Hightower, specifically "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" and "If the Gods Had Meant for Us to Vote They Would Have Given Us Candidates". After that, if you can still say that you honestly believe the crap you're spewing now, then I will stop thinking of you as an immature child. Until then, well at least you know what I honestly think of you.

[Iverson]

54. such logic!

At one point, the majority of people believed there were witches in Salem. The majority of people believed that the earth was flat. Ignorance is something to be overcome, not pandered to. Good grief!

Anything of substance to offer in place of "greenies go home," or have we seen your argument at its most cogent?

[LevChernyi]

76. freak!

What the hell does it matter if they vote or not? You've not only gone beyond deciding that everyone who doesn't like right-wing politics is owed some debt of alliegence to Grey Davis. You've now told them they aren't allowed to vote at all. What possible difference does it make if they vote or not?

Why don't you stay home, the polls say you can't win right?

[Evil_Dewers]

95. Freak?

That wasn't very nice.

[revcarol]

19. Around here, Greens are flocking to Kucinich, who is a Democrat,

(just in case ya'll have forgotten.) they are re-registering as Democrats to vote for a "progressive" candidate.David Bacon, the Green candidate for Governor is working on the Kucinich campaign.

Some Greens have given up on the Dem Party, but some see hope in DK's candidacy.

If we are ever going to get them back into the party, we must wean ourselves from corporate campaign contributions and corporate corruption. DK does that.Accepts no PAC money, not even labor union money.

More re-regulation like before, no more electricity deregulation(unlike Dean,) scientifically based EPA and public lands standards, fair pay and standards for labor, not raping the rest of the world, you name it.Contrast this with some of the current leaders, who have been having $2000 lunches and accepting contributions from certain industries(although by individuals.) The contrasts are there for all to see.

[ulysses]

85. This is a Green thread, revcarol

Thoughtful posts aren't allowed, y'know...

;-)

[no name no slogan]

96. DK is why I came back

I had pretty much abandoned the Dems after 1992, after I had been VERY active: I was a state convention delegate twice, worked very hard for Wellstone in 1990, and helped unseat State Rep. Al Quist, the John Ashcroft of Minnesota, in 1988.

After 1992, I still gave support to selected Democratic candidates (even built web sites for two), but I could not vote for a Dem presidential candidate after Clinton f'd the progressives over on many big issues in his first term.

However, Kucinich gives me hope. Wellstone was one of the reasons I became a Democrat, and Kucinich is like him in so many ways, it's scary. He really has the fire and passion that has left our national party in its quest for "respectability". Kucinich is truly my last hope for this once-great party. Yes, I'll vote Democratic even if he doesn't win the nomination, but I doubt I'll be out pounding the pavement the same way for any of the others.

[Evil_Dewers]

108. I love DK.

I wish he was my congressman, instead of Gephardt. But DK doesn't have sno-cone's chance in hell of getting the nomination.

I hope he stays in it as long as he can. He won't take dirty money and give Lewinskys to corporate America. Which is also why he would never get the nomination. Bush is going to have $200 million to bash the Dems all next year. DK is having trouble raising more money than Al Sharpton.

[usregimechange]

22. The Green Party is The Base of The Dem. Party n/t

[Kahuna]

32. No it is not. Black voters are a larger base. And...

as a black person, I resent your disregard for black voters. Greens don't care about people.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

42. Calling a DUer a freeper

How shameless. How idiotic

[Terwilliger]

45. how true

shameless, idiotic freeper Democrats

[Evil_Dewers]

49. shameless, idiotic freeper Democrats

You asked me yesterday if I was a freeper. I of course replied no. A moderator deleted your post.

Do you always accuse others of being freepers when you get slammed in a debate?

This seems to be an ugly trend with you.

[Iverson]

69. an ugly trend

No one here deserves to be called a freeper. Having mentioned that, I also urge you to think at length on karma.

[Selwynn]

81. Again and last time I'll say anything before I drop it...

I ingored this clown yesterday, and now in three separate threads I've been in I see this:

Ingored
---Oh my god how can you say that???
---- Ingored
--- that is totally uncalled for
--- ignored
---what a horrible thing to say!

Etc, etc....

So just do what I did. Makes like a lot better. He is here to be an idiot, be inflammatory and stir up bullshit. He's not here to positively contribute to anything, so just ignore him.

[Iverson]

83. That may be sound advice.

I have never used the ignore function yet, but I am on the verge of doing so for the first time. I have found up until now that even the nastiest, most puerile Green-haters have some redeeming features or at least a willingness to use reason part of the time, but now, well ...:shrug:

[Iverson]

90. Hey, it was!

n/t

[Evil_Dewers]

91. Oh Lordy Oh Lordy Oh Lordy

Please don't ignore me you great and powerful Green Monster! :scared:

Look, I'll stop with the green bashing.

Selwynn from Boise has a nasty habit of following me around from topic to topic telling people to ignore me. Meanwhile, Selwynn claims to have me on ignore. Go figure.

Look, you Greens are not Satan. You are not the true enemy. Just please don't vote Green if the polls (which are quite accurate) show you have no chance of winning (like in 2000) and the Dem/Repuke race is close.

[noiretextatique]

50. i'm black, and green, and democratic all over!!!

now...for another chorus of:

GREENS, GREENS....they're everywhere!
they're in your water
they're in your air
pesky greens all over place
they're in your face
they f*** your date
greens, greens, i hate them so
i see them here
i see them fro
greens, greens: just go away
and let our savior
lead the way
from websites here and websites there
we know the green meme
raises hair!
:eyes:

as a black person...i wish the disenfranshisement of black voters was of more concern to democrats than the green party it's pretty sickening that democrats will concede this issue and BBV to republicans (per the post that started this thread) to whine about greens instead. truly sickening, in fact, since disenfranchisement of black voters was and issue in 2000...in florida. :puke:

[revcarol]

68. I agree that we have shamelessly neglected the concerns and needs of

Black people. AND we have shamelessly neglected the concerns of people who used to be Democrats, the Greens.And we have shamelessly neglected the concerns and needs of labor.

Vigorous self-examination is definietly need by the Party and by us, the individuals in the party!!

We need all our bases, including Green ex-Democrats.But until we can wake up the leadership, all we can do is realize that,POWER TO THE PEOPLE" IS THE BEST THAT WE CAN DO, STARTING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE LOCAL PRECINCT LEVEL.

We also need to put our $$ where our mouth is. I contributed to Wellstone, even though I had very little money at the time. We CAN wean the Democratic party off the corporate teat.

[MSchreader]

75. I'm glad somebody said it!

as a black person...i wish the disenfranshisement of black voters was of more concern to democrats than the green party it's pretty sickening that democrats will concede this issue and BBV to republicans (per the post that started this thread) to whine about greens instead. truly sickening, in fact, since disenfranchisement of black voters was and issue in 2000...in florida. :puke:

It's about damn time this was said in this thread.

Martin

[Iverson]

62. "Greens don't care about people."

I see. Did you get that from reading the Green Party platform? Was is maybe in the New England Journal of Medicine? Or did you just ask yourself how you could be as ugly as possible in one sentence?

To lie knowingly is an awful thing.

[noiretextatique]

66. it's not a lie to those who share this mindset, iverson

but i have noticed the resurfacing of the 'green meme' as a tactic used by some supporters of a certain presidential candidate.

[Iverson]

67. reminder

The tactic of systematically dehumanizing one's political opponents was brought to its apex with German fascism. I am outraged to see it even writ small here on DU.

Perhaps you are correct and the writer believes his or her own propaganda.

[noiretextatique]

82. greens are a convienent scapegoat...

please note the original post in this thread. BBV and other republican disenfranchisement schemes are perfectly acceptable, but voting green isn't...because of BBV and other republican disenfranchisements schemes :crazy: but it's greens who "don't care about people" :puke:

[diamondsoul]

126. "Greens don't care about people"

Since WHEN?! That's possibly the most idiotic statement I've seen on DU in a while now, right up there with Kucinich helping encourage the Iraq war by strongly opposing it. :eyes: :puke:

Why is there such a need to bash Greens that even the racial divide has to be tossed in their faces as if it's somehow their fault? Greens don't "disregard blacks", Greens disregard the people who have disregarded THEM for decades! When a guy like Kucinich gets lambasted by Kweisi Mfume for making sure he did his JOB as an elected official, some of us aren't going to have a whole lot of sympathy when you complain people don't care. It doesn't seem to matter if we care or not, you're gonna bust somebody's balls no matter what they do.

DEMOCRACY, dammit, love it, fight for it, or STFU and let it be turned into Bushland!

[Kahuna]

29. Isn't there a ban on promoting third parties in GD?

Mods?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

71. I don't see the "promotion".

I really don't. Can you point it out to me?

[noiretextatique]

104. "promotion"=not joining in on the scapegoating

don't you know "greens don't care about people?!" :eyes: and since republicans are permitted to disenfranchise certain loyal and dependable democratic voters, and with BBV and the specter of truly 'equal opportunity' disenfranchisement...don't you realize greens need to make up this 'acceptable' loss?! as i understand it, republicans are 'allowed' to do this because democrats (the leadership, anyway) are too chicken to address the problem because they fear losing 'swing voters' and others concerned about the tendency of democrats to kowtow to the jesse jackson/cynthia mckinney/cbc wing of the party. btw, this is something, i am told, clinton made clear he wouldn't do by staging a 'confrontation' with an obscure teenaged rapper (who nobody ever heard of then, or since). well...a few did...as i have learned here: some thought an obscure teenaged rapper was a major threat to them, for some reason...sort of like a reverse KKK thing, i guess. :eyes:
anyway...this is as much as i know about the "promotion" thing, and why it's of such concern: greens have to vote democratic because republicans like to cheat in elections, which is ok. peace!

[ulysses]

106. rofl!

greens have to vote democratic because republicans like to cheat in elections, which is ok.

Karen, I know someone else recently declared their love for you, but by your leave, I'd like to do the same! :D

[noiretextatique]

115. love me, love me, love....say you do!!!!

a line from nina simone's version of "wild is the wind"...i'm listening to it now.

:loveya: right back at you, sweetie! riidicule seems an effective tool against simplistic idiocy, no? :hi:

[ulysses]

118. yes, but

riidicule seems an effective tool against simplistic idiocy, no?

never underestimate the resiliency of the idiotic. :D

[lancemurdoch]

31. coalitions

The Democratic party is a coalition, just like the Republican party is a coalition (between the rich and upper middle class and the religious right). Different candidates represent different constituencies. It seems a lot of white liberal yuppies like Dean, and a lot of labor activists like Gephardt, so that's what camp they come from, and if they win the nomination, they'd make concessions to the other camp.

There comes times when something happens and there's a break in that. Back in Lincoln's time, the Republicans WERE the party of civil rights. By the 1970's that was no longer true, in fact, most conservative southern Democrats had left or were leaving the Democrats for the Republicans, because the coalition had broken up over the issue of civil rights in the 1960's as the mantle for that cause went to the Democrats.

I don't see Dean as representing my interests, he seems like a fiscally conservative DLC "New Democrat" too much, however, it seems like he would be willing to conceed enough to the other Democratic camps that I'd be willing to vote for him (unless he veers right) faced with a Republican congress and president. However, if someone like Lieberman, an ex-DLC head who I consider just a DINO was nominated, I would be glad to have the Green party, because Lieberman represents me in no way, and in fact I would prefer Bush would win, because at least a Republican would be blamed for conservatives policies. This is why people like Kucinich can't win the nomination, his constituency is currently too weak.

[Evil_Dewers]

70. The position of the Green Party is also against the recall

Greens are no better than Dems.

Dems: No on recall, yes on Bustamante.

Greens: No on recall, yes on Cum-hey-ho (sp).

Stop acting superior, Greens.

You'd rather "be right" and lose and have a corporate whore Repuke in power than compromise your "high ideals" and settle for a Dem who wasn't Lyndon LaRouche.

[noiretextatique]

93. no on the recall would effective end CA's nightmare

and davis would retain the governorship. it seems to me an example of greens and democrats working together, though albeit, not as perfectly as some desire. even camejo acknowledges that some greens, like myself, will feel compelled to vote for bustamante to thwart the giant chimp's chances of becoming governor. this continued bickering (and bitterness) is counter-productive to all concerned, imho. and of course, it routinely dismisses those of us who are actually compromising...and i think our numbers are much greater than the mythical "purists". frankly, my problem is with those who actually vote for ahhhnold...an actor with no experience, and a rather twisted worldview. the fact that he is taken seriously by some is a far more disturbing reality than greens or camejo, imho.

[chadm]

102. Green is the boogyman

if LaRouche doesn't get you first.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

110. Green party is starting to look better all the time

I'm ABB, but as the Democratic campaign gets uglier I find more reason to dislike this party. At least the Greens are different than Republicans in a substantial way. Too bad they can't win anything.

[quaker bill]

113. There are more reasons

Republicans want a Green in the election. Folks who do this sort of analysis often miss the dynamics of electoral politics. No candidate runs in vacuum. All candidates interact with one another and change the way the campaign runs.


1. A Green Party candidate will not win in 2004. Because any eventual Green Party candidate knows that they will not win, he/she will not be constrained to make policy statements that could be considered mainstream. In other words is a Green party candidate is free to be profoundly leftist.

2. If a Green Party candidate runs, it will drive the eventual Democratic candidate more to the center. No democratic candidate will attempt to outflank the Green Party to the left. Because the Green is not constrained by notions of electability, it just couldn't be done. So to create distinctions between him/herself and the Green, the Democrat will run more towards the center.

3. The left has a powerful populist message. But if a Green runs nationally, they will take what power there is in these positions and unfortunately lose.

4. The Democrat will be left with a muddled centrist message that will not be a powerful as it could be, and more likely to be seen as republican lite. Because of this, less distinction will be drawn between Bushco and the Democrat, thus they are more likely to lose as well.

Ideological dilution, the repugs are looking forward to it.

[Terwilliger]

121. and you folks simply add to it

electoral politics mean NOTHING to the 50% of the electorate (or more) that don't vote

[diamondsoul]

127. I keep wondering

When the Greens are going to turn this ludicrous argument around on the Dems. "It's all YOUR fault Nader lost in 2000, and you KNEW a vote for Gore was a vote for Bush!". :eyes: When are people ever going to wake up and realize it works just as well both ways? F8ck the Greens, F*ck the Dems, the Repukes still win. The ONLY way to beat them is to come together.

I know, preaching to the choir, right?*sigh*

[noiretextatique]

129. hey diamondsoul...that line of reasoning falls on deaf ears

given the precendent set in 2000, it seems to me that making sure eligible voters get to vote, and making sure all the votes get properly recorded and counted should be of more concern that handwringing about greens, since gore won even with nader in the race. this is the way to win: make sure people get to vote, and make sure all the votes are properly recorded and counted. this why gore "lost" in 2000.

[diamondsoul]

130. agreed. The whole pounding each other on the head

makes me crazy, to be honest.

I was reading this morning that Kucinich has a scheduling conflict that may cause him to miss another NAACP event, and I'm worried about that. He's not perfect, but by G-d he's as close as I've ever seen in a Politician in my life, so this concerns me in a big way. I know he's not a racist and I know he cares about racial issues, so keep your fingers crossed he puts his foot down and goes to this one for me, please.

I give, I'm a loony lefty, and proud of it. I don't care if your Democrat, reformed Repuke, Libertarian, etc. etc. your vote is yours to cast as you see fit. I'm a registered loyal Dem, because that's my choice. Like my candidate I want to bring the Party back together. That's not going to happen if we pound on the Greens who are willing to re-register to nominate Kucinich, or any of this other stupidity we engage in. Ever notice how the word "idealism" is tossed around with that sneer to it, as if having strong principles and sticking to them was a bad thing? Hell if we'd all done that to start with we probably wouldn't be in this mess!

[noiretextatique]

132. "your vote is yours to cast as you see fit"

what a simple concept! yet this simple, self-evident truth has been so twisted and mutilated...because republicans decided to cheat! and some continue to excuse them by blaming those who simply participated in the process, like good citizens should...including nader. it's reprehensible, undemocratic, and it excuses the real culprits: republicans, like katherine harris and the jusctices on scotus.
i wish kucinich the best...he should speak to the NAACP, when his schedule permits: a natural audience for his views there.

i also *detest* the way idealism is used a slur here, as well as the false notion that lefties are seeking nothing but "ideological purity" that is continually whined about here. most of the crap in these green/dem threads is just bluster, and unfortunately, the few loudmouths drown out the people who ARE compromising, and the people who are willing to do so.

the underlying issue in these thread is: ideology. the most fervent nader/green haters also detest anyhing and anyone remotely "left," including kucinich. i just wish people would be more honest about it.

[noiretextatique]

133. "your vote is yours to cast as you see fit"

what a simple concept! yet this simple, self-evident truth has been so twisted and mutilated...because republicans decided to cheat! and some continue to excuse them by blaming those who simply participated in the process, like good citizens should...including nader. it's reprehensible, undemocratic, and it excuses the real culprits: republicans, like katherine harris and the jusctices on scotus.
i wish kucinich the best...he should speak to the NAACP, when his schedule permits: a natural audience for his views there.

i also *detest* the way idealism is used a slur here, as well as the false notion that lefties are seeking nothing but "ideological purity" that is continually whined about here. most of the crap in these green/dem threads is just bluster, and unfortunately, the few loudmouths drown out the people who ARE compromising, and the people who are willing to do so.

the underlying issue in these thread is: ideology. the most fervent nader/green haters also detest anyhing and anyone remotely "left," including kucinich. i just wish people would be more honest about it.

[Iverson]

134. suggestion

I agree that idealism is used as a slur here, and I also think that it happens almost unconsciously. Since you've brought it up, I encourage you to start a distinct thread that engages perspectives on idealism.

[Q]

135. Why the F**k hasn't this thread been locked yet?

- For hell sakes....threads are locked for far less than the garbage this one is producing.

- And now we have 'preemptive blaming' going on...some Dems actually blaming (fill in the blank) if they lose in 2004.

- Have you ever wondered why there is no third party challenging the Republicans? Think about it.

- I'm not a 'Green'...but this 'open season' shit has to stop. Just a week ago I had a thread locked because it questioned 'conservative' Democrats and their influence on the direction of the party. But I guess third party bashing is still okay.

[JVS]

136. I don't know

I sent an alert when I posted earlier in the thread. I guess the new rules really are designed just to protect Clark, as someone suggested during the debate over them.

[Q]

138. The Dem party is in trouble...

...and it's not because of Greens or Nader or little green men from Neptune. They're in trouble because they've lost their identity...and seem willing to go where ever the tide takes them instead of working together to build a 'boat' that will hold everyone.

- We can't beat Bush* under such circumstances. Want third parties to vote for Dems? Then give them a reason instead of treating them like the enemy. Want the Dem base to turn out in droves? Then stop acting as if they're not as important as 'swing' voters.

- The Dems can win..but it's up to them to make the changes.

[Iverson]

140. Have you gone mad!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

"Want third parties to vote for Dems? Then give them a reason instead of treating them like the enemy."

Good God, man! If we fail to treat third parties like the enemy, then by definition that means that we're coddling them and giving in completely to their intransigent extremism!

(Now where did I put my junior bipartisanship decoder badge?)

:dunce:

[KittyWampus]

141. Greens Should Put Together A FewSpecific Issues

Say three that they are adamant about... present it to the Dem Candidates and see who takes their suggestions... and whether the Presidential nominee puts them into his/ner platform...

If Dem puts in platform... then throw their support to the Dem nominee.