Sep 30 Katrina Officially missing 10,417; Officially dead 935 LA, 221 MS

[preciousdove]

Information from these threads should be more widely seen.

The numbers are not in the "dead' but the "missing'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4953733#4954644

Over 7,500 Adults still missing as of 9/30/05
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4953733&mesg_id=4954644

According to the Center for Missing Adults, there are over 7,500 people still missing as of 9/30/05. They do not list the number of missing but their database of names has 42 names a page over 185 pages. That totals 7,770 names approx.
http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmalistview.php?wstr=Catastrophe&alpha=A

There are 2,647 missing children
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4953733&mesg_id=4954821

You can download an excel spreadsheet with all of the missing children reported to the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children. They were asked by the Justice Department to compile the list so this is pretty official.
http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=2077

Katrina death toll: 935 LA, 221 MS
http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/WWL100105bodies.b25a8e63.html

Search 640,000 + survivor records at once at KatrinaList.Net
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4953733&mesg_id=4953895
Katrina List is a database - started, I think by DUers - who wanted to create a site that would combine the records from dozens of sites that have missing/found lists of people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4928733
louis-t (1000+ posts) Thu Sep-29-05 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Second hand knowledge alert....
A friend of a friend is working with relief efforts in NOLA, said they had gone through first 10,000 body bags already. Not sure how reliable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=161226&mesg_id=161226

...Brenneman returned to Liberal Sept. 18, but he was forbidden to discuss how many bodies he actually assisted with during that week of recovery...

Hundreds of Coast families still searching for loved ones
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=161223&mesg_id=161223

"They have not given us a list of those they have identified," she said. "Families call us and we're not a help. We've been told to give them the same number that people call for lost family members. The families usually call us back and tell us they got nowhere. They were just asked a lot of questions."..

wellstone_democrat (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-07-05 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4683780

2. and remember is aimed at

...in-fucking-credible. I emailed with a vol from another state and its the same thing. Almost as many police/guards as residents. Like mine, her shelter is 90% women and children and old, old men. The families here are wondering where their men are and we can't find out....

[leveymg]

1. Kicked. Don't let this one disappear!

Something is truly rotten on the Gulf Coast.:mad:

[Dunvegan]

4. That sounds about right.

I said during Katrina that we'd not get a real count from the gov't and we'd need to wait for statisticians to "triangulate" the the acutal body count.

The administration will do anything, anything to keep the Katrina death toll "officially" lower than the 9/11 death toll.

Otherwise, it means that Bush and his Homeland Security Department is deadler to Americans (via neglect) than Al Qaeda.

I take bets the FEMA count never gets over 3000.

But I've guessed (considering the number of evacuees and the population) that we'd see about 7-10K dead in the aftermath. And I think that number is far closer to reality than the 900 number.

We shall see.

Recommended. Do not forget NOLA.

[cantstandbush]

28. Nagin may have been correct about the number dead.

I hope not, but I fear he was close on his original guesstimate of "thousands dead."

[texpatriot2004]

61. Yes, I think he was right about that. n/t

[Whoa_Nelly]

2. Kick!

and nominated

[lovuian]

3. 10,000 missing now the truth is coming out!!!

Horrible!!!

[ladylibertee]

5. Oh my this is sad.

[xultar]

6. We all know Bush can't let the dead be greater than 9/11.

[donheld]

7. Sadly it does sound about right

We may as well face it. I do not want this covered up.

[Nothing Without Hope]

8. Even bodies found & identified by their families are confiscated and

the official morgues don't admit they have them:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4949027
Thread title: LAT: "Families Lose Loved Ones Again- in a Bureaucratic Mire" BODIES TAKEN

Recommended. We need to pursue this issue, and the media are not doing enough.

[Dancing_Dave]

9. I saw over 100 missing just with the last name of "Washington".

Somebody had better account for these people...when so many people "dissappeared" in US supported Latin American dictatorships people rose up!

As you make your bed, so you lie. What goes around, comes around. People in USA have no more protection from the catastrophic consequences of our own political mistakes that anyone else on this planet...but it is crushing to finally have to face this.

[Child_Of_Isis]

10. I said in the beginning

that a lot of people could easily end up "disappearing". The news channels have already stopped the "missing alerts" allowing others to think that all is over and done and everyone is reunited. Anyone who says otherwise in public, will be labeled a conspiracy theorist.

[malaise]

11. Send these to MSM

They must be forced to ask questions re these deaths. Great post!!

[livvy]

12. They will never actually list the true numbers of bodies.

They don't want the people to know how bad it really was. People can handle, sadly enough, a number under or around a thousand, but 10,000? No way. This has been an unnecessary mess from the very start. Publishing the true numbers of victims would only would only make their case weaker than it already is.
There has to be a way to force the issue, to get the real numbers out. How?

[intheflow]

24. Estimates are around 8,000 died in the 1900 Galveston hurricane.

People can handle the reaal numbers. If the media would report them.

[pitohui]

29. how about a monument?

there is (or was before the storm struck the coast) a monument to the camille victims who listed them all by name

i think we need to demand such a monument for katrina victims, it might be the best way to get an organization that will collect all the names of the confirmed dead & the missing

such a project might take several yrs before we could be sure that all names had been added to the list

it will be many thousands if it is an accurate count, think of it this way, if 80 percent of ppl evac'd greater new orleans area, if 50,000 more were evac'd later, that still leaves another 50K or so unaccounted for

and of course there were deaths in other areas too, sheriff stephens of st. bernard parish estimated there would be 1,000 to 1,500 dead from st. bernard, they have released the names of only a handful -- not even the names of all the dead from st. rita's nursing home, which it seems they should have been able to get the names of the dead off the criminal indictment!

[Dogmudgeon]

13. A question

What is the usual ratio (in a disaster) of missing people who later turn up dead?

If there are 10,000 people missing, I doubt that all 10,000 are dead. But many obviously are. Whether that number is 80 or 8,000 is the big question.

--p!

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Truly depends on the disaster

and how you want to do your records... in a WELL MANAGED disaster, (and all disasters are CHAOTIC), your ratio is quite low and your missing usually appear among the living worst case within two weeks. In a badly managed disaster your ratio is almost 100% at this stage of the game....

These fuckers are desperate to hide the true extent of what they have done... and to keep this UNDER 3000... and are playing many a trick that is found in the book

Now here is the necessary clarification. In this case it is NOT the bush Administration. Any disaster of this scope, that is this badly managed, is a political liability to the government (insert government here).... so governments get involved in multiple tricks to ahem hide the bodies. I have posted in the past some of the tricks... and I am still expecting them to use the ever so popular mass grave, in terr 100 bodies, take a zero out in records... quite the standby by the way)


And due to the if they are not reported they were never born, trick, I wonder how far to pad the 10K missing here, and my gut tells me at least another 2K.... and yes you may now call me cynical

[Dogmudgeon]

51. Cynicism these days may simply be a rational response

It is much harder to hide bodies these days, and mortuary practices are strongly regulated and supervised by the law. Therefore, hiding bodies will require a great deal more work and innovation than it previously did, even than a few decades ago. For several months, I was amazed that the death toll from the Boxing Day tsunami in Indonesia was "only" 250k; I was sure it would be the first megadeath natural disaster. But I also have very little to go on with regard to that disaster. Indonesian government is highly corrupt, rebels control several areas, and many parts of Indonesia are simply not connected to any communication system, or even roadways.

On the other hand, dozens of governments lent a hand to the Indonesians, especially in and around Banda Aceh, itself a notorious rebel base.

With the Katrina -- and possibly Rita -- disasters, we've seen massive relocations of people. More ominous, very little information about the dead has been released beyond simply giving raw numbers and the occasional human-interest story. As of yesterday, I think about 1050 people were "officially" dead, but a lot of people were being found dead and decomposing in attics and top floors of houses. These stories were quickly glossed over except in Philadelphia (my home area) because a company around here makes technology for finding dead bodies which are difficult to see and which may be in dead air spaces that reduce the amount of the stench of decomposition.

I would find it extremely difficult to believe that fewer than 5,000 people perished in Katrina. I would not find 20,000 to be "too many," either. The levees held for several hours after the passage of the eyewall, and then crumbled without warning; yet, the storm surge was reportedly still coming in. In a similar way, the dynamics of the storm surge was underestimated during Rita. I don't think storm surges are really predictable, in general. During Ivan in 2004, a slightly smaller storm than Katrina, a series of mid-oceanic waves of 90 feet trough-to-crest were recorded, which exceeded expectations by an order of magnitude.

Your cynicism isn't unfounded or unwelcome. I follow the oil industry pretty well for a lay person, mainly because of my interest in energy issues (like "Peak Oil"). For weeks, we've been hearing that the oil rigs and pipelines in the Gulf of Mexico survived with less damage than was predicted; this week, the news came out that there was a 100% shut-down for several weeks. So what's really going on?

With (dis)respect to the Bush junta, things are not going well. If there is a concerted effort to modify the death toll, mass disgust with him and his croneys may allow wishtleblowers to step forward with little or no fear of retaliation.

--p!

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. And I do hope we get the whistle blowers and fast

and yes on the energy front, we were going INTERESTING, so how many rigs were truly destroyed and how extensive is the damage, REALLY? Or is this stage mamagement to get people used to a higher price?

HMMM

[crispini]

14. Kicked and recommended.

[mikelewis]

15. 800 Corpses in Morgue, 32 Reported dead - 1135 Confirmed Dead so far

-snip-
A MONTH after hurricane Katrina ravaged the Louisiana coast, coroners have positively identified just 32 of the nearly 800 corpses collected at a temporary morgue. {This is just one morgue... How many morgues did they have set up?}

Only about a third of the bodies have been even tentatively identified, highlighting the difficulty of confirming the identities and causes of death for victims of a disaster that left corpses decomposing in floodwaters and scattered survivors across the US.

-snip-
In addition to 896 Katrina deaths reported in Louisiana, 220 people died in Mississippi and 19 in four other states.
{896+220+19 = 1135}

Dr Cataldie and Frank Minyard, coroner of Orleans Parish — where officials believe most of the Katrina deaths took place — said the date of death for most victims would be registered as August 29, the day the hurricane made landfall.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/most-katrina-dead-still-unidentified/2005/09/29/1127804608139.html

[Tuesday_Morning]

21. Date of death Aug 29th

so that the cause of death will be Katrina and not the incompetence that followed.

[bettyellen]

16. how will they confirm cause of death, when they've let them decompose?

how do you DNA id someone whose family has not a trace left of their loved one?
how many are they purposefully allowing to fall through these loopholes?

[annabanana]

17. needle the "media" . . . . DO YOUR DAMN JOB

miserable fucks

[annabanana]

18. kick it hard.... Where are they? New Orleans Ghosts will

haunt something fierce!

Massive numbers of people missing.....

[Mr_Spock]

19. I've been wondering about this myself

Where the heck is the urgency? This is a pretty big deal and there's little talk of it...

[fooj]

20. Seems like the same numbers on the missing children

a few weeks back!:cry:

[Tuesday_Morning]

22. And do those numbers account for...

...non-English speaking immigrants? Or whole families that are missing?

[intheflow]

23. Some missing men = incarcerated as looters?

Anyone got any links on how many people were arrested for looting and are still in prison? I wonder if those people have been able to connect with their familes.

[ohtransplant]

25. Even if the final figure is half of this total

,which seems possible given the 911 example, that's still over 6000 dead in all.

In addition it probably doesn't account for undocumented aliens and their families (as stated above). Oh yeah, * doesn't count them.

There's a big story here. Why am I seeing OJ's 10th anniversary on the network news instead? :sarcasm:

[SeanQ]

26. Only about 15% of deaths attributed to Katrina

I can't find the original DU post but here is the nola.com link:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_09_10.html

"Sheriff Harry Lee said Saturday night that the Jefferson Parish Coroner’s office had processed 152 bodies, but only 20 of those were deaths related to Hurricane Katrina."

That was on Sep 10th. I seem to recall the current 'official' death toll for Jefferson Parish is in the 40's?

My working assumption has been if they are reporting 935 dead in LA then I wouldn't be surprised to eventual find out the real total dead is at least 5,000 and possibly over 7,000.

Edited to add KOS link:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/11/20330/4246

[pitohui]

30. oh hell if harry lee wasn't lying & deceiving

we wouldn't believe it was harry lee

[linazelle]

41. A la Iraq: Die on battlefield counted...die off the field not counted. nt

[tom_paine]

27. No surprises there. We KNOW the Busheviks lie like Soviets

It was a gievn from Day One that they would suppress the Death Toll any way they wcould, and that their numbers would be entirely fraudulent.

[Swamp Rat]

47. The Clenis did it!

:D

[Zeebo]

31. Keep this kicked... And send to MSM... eom

[robertpaulsen]

32. Kicked and recommended!

:kick:

[libnnc]

33. kick

[annabanana]

34. night time kick.. . .eom

[buzzsaw_23]

35. nominated

Also, when Bush called a state of emergency for Louisiana, pretty much EVERY Parish was included, EXCEPT Orleans and Jefferson. I mean Caddo, Bossier, Morehouse, Concordia, Winn, Webster etc ALL of those Parishes had ZERO chance of EVER being affected by Hurricane Katrina. Yet the two big Parishes that were under TOTAL threat from Hurricane Katrina were Orleans and Jefferson and yet Bush DELIBERATELY didn't put them under a state of emergency.

[ailsagirl]

36. kick

:cry:

[Joanne98]

37. If you click all on this site it says they're are 927 missing......

http://www.theyaremissed.org/ncma/gallery/ncmalistview.php?wstr=Catastrophe&alpha=%

[mikelewis]

57. Download the complete list....

There's quite a few more than 927

[mom cat]

38. Thanks for all of your hard work in keeping track of this sad story.

We need to know the truth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Color me suprrised and have sent it to email lists

and the numbers of dead, are those of the missing... and the gov'ment is playign a fine game of hidey hole...

Hmm I wonder that is the list of the missing, from people who have somebody to report, I wonder how much to padd this with thsoe who have nobody in the world to legally report them.

[linazelle]

40. I knew it. The dead have become the "missing." I hope they haunt

George BUSH to his grave. Fucking bastard.

[donheld]

43. Kick again

[Dunvegan]

44. In San Francisco historians are still recounting the "missing dead"...

...from the 1906 earthquake.

Until a few years ago the count was under 500...new records searches of undocumented city dwellers and others bring the count to somewhere between 3000-6000.

I think the NOLA casualty numbers will someday be found to be about the same.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake

"At the time only 478 deaths were reported, a figure concocted by government officials who felt that reporting the true death toll would hurt real estate prices and efforts to rebuild the city. This figure has been revised to today's conservative estimate of 3000+. Some have put it as high as 6000.

"Most of the deaths occurred in San Francisco but 189 were reported elsewhere across the San Francisco Bay Area. Other places in the Bay Area such as Santa Rosa, San Jose, and Stanford University also received severe damage.

"Between 225,000 and 300,000 people were left homeless, out of a population of about 400,000. Half of these refugees fled across the bay to Oakland, in an evacuation similar to the Dunkirk Evacuation that would occur years later. Newspapers at the time described Golden Gate Park, the Panhandle, and the beaches between Ingleside and North Beach as covered with makeshift tents."

[robertpaulsen]

62. 99 years later, history repeats itself.

Thanks for shining the light of history on this cover-up. The motive is, as usual, $$$!

[HughMoran]

45. "Search for Katrina bodies ends in Louisiana; state death toll at 964"

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/wwl100305bodies.bbbcd288.html

The search for bodies of people killed by Hurricane Katrina has ended in Louisiana, and more searches will be conducted only if someone reports seeing a body, a state official said Monday.

All agencies conducting the searches have finished their sweeps for remains. But Kenyon International Emergency Services, the private company hired by the state to remove the bodies, is on call if any other body is found, said Bob Johannessen, a spokesman with the state Department of Health and Hospitals.

"There might still be bodies found -- for instance, if a house was locked and nobody able to go into it," Johannessen said.

Last week, the Federal Emergency Management Agency said it had completed its role in the search, because its specialties were no longer needed. Those services include getting to bodies in attics or other hard-to-reach places or in buildings that may be structurally unsound.
...


As of Monday, the Katrina death toll in Louisiana stood at 964.

[kath]

48. So,it looks like many houses were"locked" and will likely be bulldozed

without being searched.

[understandinglife]

46. Bookmarked. Thank you.

Peace.

[kath]

49. "he was forbidden to discuss how many bodies he actually assisted with"

That statement absolutely gives me the creeps. WHO is forbidding the release of such info?? This guy needs to speak out.

http://www.swdtimes.com/swdtimes/2005/092605/story1.html

Brenneman returned to Liberal Sept. 18, but he was forbidden to discuss how many bodies he actually assisted with during that week of recovery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. and that is SOP

in any of these cases

Ah I can bet he was made to sign federal secrecy papers

[TheUnspeakable]

53. Tin Foil Hat Time!!!!!

I find this an interesting theory-please don't smack me down-I'm just putting it out there-not saying I believe it, but some of those fires did seem odd. Note the date-Sept 7-it's not current.
(snip)
"Over the last few days I have been carefully monitoring news outlets for any fires that suspiciously break out, especially at night in New Orleans. I find it ostensibly strange that virtually none are being reported. Regardless, I am tracking this for good reason.


Armed with the truth of how corrupt the Bush regime truly is, I can honestly say that I have learned how to watch our incompetent leaders in action with a criminal mind. I strongly suspect that, under cover of darkness, FEMA and/or Blackwater high paid mercenaries may be using various buildings, warehouses or even abandoned homes as strategical crematorium sites for casualties so they can effectively keep the embarrassing body count to a minimum"

more

<http://www.democracymeansyou.com/articles/article.php?ID=373>

[spinbaby]

54. Search for Bodies Ends in New Orleans

Here's the latest spin: far fewer bodies than once feared.
-----
Search for Bodies Ends in New Orleans

NEW ORLEANS - Officials ended their door-to-door sweep for corpses finding far fewer bodies than once feared and school children returned to classes as New Orleans revved up efforts to recover from Hurricane Katrina.

The search for Katrina victims ended in Louisiana with a death toll at 964, substantially less than the 10,000 victims some officials feared. A private company hired by the state to remove bodies was on call if any others were found.

The death toll probably will continue to rise, but authorities have said sweeps yielded fewer bodies than feared, and that the toll was likely to be well below the dire projections. Mayor Ray Nagin said soon after Katrina struck that New Orleans alone could have 10,000 dead.

"There might still be bodies found — for instance, if a house was locked and nobody able to go into it," said Bob Johannessen, a spokesman with the state Department of Health and Hospitals. Mississippi's death toll remained at 221.

http://tinyurl.com/7v46

[Tsiyu]

55. We were told from the outset that the numbers of dead would shock us

Guess Bushco doesn't like shock and awe when it's American lives we're discussing.

We won't get a real answer or number. But I believe in my heart of hearts that over 10,000 of my fellow Americans were left to die by that sick bastard and his sick administration. And they know that just won't play well - not even in Kansas.

America had better wake up and tell these fucks where to shove it.

[buzzsaw_23]

56. We won't forget the dispossessed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4963478

[dusty64]

58. And not a peep

of this in the corporate media.

[linazelle]

59. kick

[sakabatou]

60. And the right said the the Mayor was nuts with the numbers...

[nolabels]

63. "Officially missing 10,417" (the whale swallowed them)

Flood half a city 2 million people with water and half never had the where-with-all to leave which means about 500,000 had to kind of figure it out on their feet it would be hard to imagine it not being over 10,000.

1 in 50 die because of government neglect, mis-management and criminality in a lot of areas in different ways in these United States.
Why would anyone think the event of a flood would be any different :shrug:

[Zeebo]

64. I can't believe they will get away with this. EOM

[Bill ORights]

65. Kick. The Missing Americans, a newly named political class.

And it is the majority party in this country.

[UrbScotty]

66. (crying)

:cry:

[bj2110]

67. Kicked. Nominated. It should be front page news that 10,000 are missing.

[buzzsaw_23]

68. Agree n/t

[pitohui]

69. another little bump for the night EOM

.

[bj2110]

70. Kick for the morning

[Dunvegan]

71. Kicking with both boots on...

...Remember by Count the Dead of NOLA.

Names...Names...Names....

[buzzsaw_23]

72. Harrison County, MS- 1172 'Missing' 96 Confirmed Fatalities

The Discrepancy Between Missing People and Confirmed Fatalities in Mississippi


by Dr. Ben "Go Fu*k Yourself Cheney" Marble

http://www.opednews.com

There has been a considerable discrepancy between the 1172 individuals reported as 'missing' in Harrison County, MS. and the 96 confirmed fatalities.

This, of course, has led many people to wonder where those people might be located? My own personal theory was that as the 30+ feet storm surge receded many of the people were likely swept out to sea into the Mississippi Sound. For example, I had heard of one report of an Asian woman in Biloxi who had climbed to the top of a tree to hang on for her life who witnessed a mother and her four children being swept away by the water. I also find it interesting that the Harrison County Coroner Gary Hargrove himself expressed similar concerns in a recent interview in the local newspaper where it said, 'Hargrove fears some of the caskets could have been swept into the Mississippi Sound.'


http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_dr__ben__051004_the_discrepancy_betw.htm