Do us all a favor: Give the "Red States" a freaking BREAK!

[Sugar Smack]

It's a scant handful of you to whom I speak. For the most part, I encounter warmth, intelligence, humor and sensitivity on this board. But when I first saw the mention of "red states" and the tacit implications that MY state is packed to the gills with Bush voters, the smug eye-rolling accompanying those little digs, the mention of "red state values"..I felt as though I'd been slapped in the face by one of my own.

I live in a blue town in a "red state". I'm luckier than some. I really feel for those who have to be wary because they're surrounded by republicans. I WORK in a "red town", so I understand how the more isolated Dems feel. It must be nice to be able to, in two syllables, negate the progress of hard-working Dems who tried their DAMNDEST during the past election and who still work fervently for our cause even though *OOPS* they live where they live.

The Texas-slamming, the slamming of the South in general doesn't do anybody any good. I love my state, and if you want to lump me in with the FLAWED and INCORRECT election results, go ahead, but it's my feeling that it's your loss.

[seabeyond]

1. i live in the reddest of red in red state of texas. and i am calif

talk about messed up. i have lost about all friends i have had over 15 years. i agree, back off, lol lol. i am pretty proud i just stay sane. never knew what the religious, or religious right was. a huge wow

[Sugar Smack]

4. "I am pretty proud just to stay sane"-

I like your attitude, seabeyond! Where would we be without a sense of humor, right?

[afdip]

109. these are pikers of red states . . .

here in south carolina, home of strom "dat's a purty black girl" thurmond, the red in 'red state' goes with neck. most of our democrats are slightly to the right of genghiz khan.

[tx_dem41]

6. Amarillo!

And I thought I had it bad in Dallas. ;)

[seabeyond]

18. amarillo by morning, yeehaw, big texan the 72oz steak. yup. n/t

[AspenRose]

93. Don't forget the Cadillac Ranch!

eom

[Zuni]

102. reddest state---Utah

far more red than Texas even

[0007]

115. Midland Texas is the reddest city in the US

[CBGLuthier]

2. second that

in fact, if it has to continue (and it will, we both know that) I would like to see a state bashing dungeon forum for such useless, hurtful, and destructive garbage.

Then when one of those, look at this map, screw the texans, shit comes along a mod can whisk it away the same way they do guns and certain ME politics.

[Sugar Smack]

9. Good idea!

See, to me, that would be a clean, efficient way to sort of "stow the junk" so that we're all freer to work together.

[Why Syzygy]

3. Yeah. What's that about?

We can't work together? No one state is "all red" OR "all blue".
I hate when that shit happens.

We need to stick together. This forum doesn't seem like the right place to go picking on other Dems just because we live in a different state. We need to spread out and proliferate.

[Skittles]

5. I will bash Texas all I f***ing please

I have lived here almost 30 years

[Sugar Smack]

17. I remember a very powerful piece

you did called "I hate people who hate Liberals". I identified with it partially because half the time in the town I work in, I have to be cautious and can't just have the freedom to talk to strangers about what's happening in this country. People tend to bash their own bad situations understandably, but the "red state" label is a truly needless and worn-out stereotype.

[Skittles]

nope

to me the difference between some states is like night and day - sure it's wrong to stereotype but I can tell you for a fact there are more bush worhipers in Texas than in Illinois - and it DOES make a difference - the book is not called WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH ILLINOIS for example.

And by the way, it wasn't me who wrote "I hate people who hate Liberals"

[CBGLuthier]

23. Well of course, there are more people in Texas

But 2.3 million people in Illinois allegedly voted for Bush.

5.5 million Californians allegedly voted for Bush which is MORE than the alleged 4.5 million that voted for him in Texas.

Oh, and only 900,000 of my fellow Oklahomans allegedly voted for Bush so that makes Illinois and Califoria worse than us. By your logic anyway.

I am just going to go on the record and say that every single person who continues this red state bashing is a fool. A complete and utterly ignorant FOOL!!

[Peace Patriot]

76. Yes, I agree with you, notmypresident, especially with the word...

...ALLEGEDLY (i.e., "5.5 million Californians allegedly voted for Bush"). Two far rightwing Bushite corporations "tabulated" all the votes using SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code. The ALLEGED result of that secret formulae was then endorsed by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies when they DOCTORED their own independent exit polls (Kerry won) to fit the secret, proprietary calculation (Bush won), late on election day.

Since the Democrats did not object--neither to this fraudulent election SYSTEM, nor to its non-transparent and fraudulent result (See below*)--most people still think Bush won and/or that there is no significant evidence that he did not, and are completely ignorant of the fact that the first order of "evidence" (transparent vote count) was eliminated prior to this so-called "election."

Compounding the use of SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code was the lack of a paper trail of any kind in one third of the nation, and woefully inadequate auditing and recounting provisions even where some kind of paper trail exists.

Upshot: We have no idea how any state voted. We cannot verify it. The election was egregiously non-transparent.

Besides all that, someone did a map of the U.S. with each state colored part blue, part red, reflecting Diebold's and ES&S's vote "tabulation." There are NO red states or blue states. There are many closely divided states--even using Bushite controlled results.

Bushite voters, whom I am convinced have always been in the minority (and have always been with us--I remember, from when I was young, the "Christian Anti-Communist Crusades" and the sad and stupid people they attracted) have been given a BIG TRUMPET by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, to promote their views way out of proportion to their numbers, and this has emboldened this anti-progressive, fascist-minded minority to be VERY LOUD in the public venue. The effect of it is to make members of the great majority feel like a minority, and feel isolated and alone.

When you review the issue polls over the last two years or so, you realize that the great majority of Americans are actually quite progressive in their views, and very anti-Iraq war. 58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war BEFORE the invasion. I'll never forget that stat. Feb. '03. Across the board in all polls. That number dipped only once, during the weeks of the invasion with U.S. troops at max risk, then went right back up to nearly 60% where it remained throughout the election campaign. (It's over 70% today.) 63% of Americans oppose torture UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. May '04. In fact, the great majority of Americans oppose EVERY major Bush policy, foreign and domestic, way up in the 60% to 70% range. The war. Social Security. The deficit. Women's rights. You name it.

And that is not even to mention Bush's terrible approval ratings--so low before the election that Zogby said he couldn't win, a dismal 49% on the very day of his inauguration (unprecedented!), and likely under 30% today. (Most polls weight toward the rightwing, so all of the above numbers are likely even more anti-Bush than they appear.)

The great majority of Americans are not stupid, uninformed or fascist. The great majority of Americans are disempowered and DISENFRANCHISED.

The war profiteering corporate news monopolies fail to heed the results of their own polls, and fail to reflect majority opinion or even to comment on this amazing discrepancy between what Americans really believe and what the government is doing. They DO NOT PERMIT these majority views--antiwar, anti-torture, pro-liberal, pro-good government--to be given the weight within the news coverage and news commentary that their numbers merit.

So, when it comes to living or working in a community that you THINK is pro-Bush, I would suggest thinking of the many lonely, isolated members of the majority who may be lurking in that community (possibly many more than you think). They may be afraid to speak out, intimidated by the LOUD Bushites, whose opinion of themselves that THEY are the majority is constantly reinforced by the news monopolies.

We are all brainwashed, in a sense. We tend to think the country has "gone rightwing." This is not even close to the truth.

What we have experienced, in my opinion, is a modern American version of a fascist coup, involving the upper echelons of the War Party (bipartisan), who manufactured an endorsement of their bloody, illegal war, using the new and completely non-transparent voting technology (highly insecure and hackable electronic voting machines and central tabulators with opaque "trade secret" programming--one hacker, a couple of minutes, leaving no trace--with access controlled by far rightwing companies).

*Why the Democratic Party leadership permitted Bushites to gain control of the vote tabulation is another story. Suffice it to say that many of the leaders support the war, and there is bipartisan corruption in the $4 billion electronic voting boondoggle at the state/local election officials level. This complicity of many Dem leaders FURTHER intimidates (and confuses!) the majority. (I have seen this at work on people.)

We have a mighty task of reform to do--within our own party, and especially regarding the election system technology. We MUST make our elections transparent once again, or our democracy is over.

And we must at the same time NOT LET people become further demoralized and stop voting. Instead, we must overwhelm the rigged system with progressive votes, while we work to make it transparent. In 2004, they excluded millions of black votes, upfront (by purges, intimidation and other methods), and stole (manufactured or changed) only a modest percentage of the remaining votes, just enough for a Bush win, in order to avoid detection (so that people wouldn't look to the non-transparent electronic vote tabulation as the culprit). (If Kerry had won bigger, we might have overcome it. We blew the Bushites away in new voter registration, in 2004, nearly 60/40, for instance, but that wasn't enough to overcome the 3% to 5% tweak of the vote they did in the east coast time zone.)

Anyway, "ALLEGEDLY" is the word all right: an alleged election with alleged results endorsed by an alleged "Fourth Estate", with alleged Democrats going silent about the whole thing, in our alleged democracy.

IF I thought that Americans had turned rightwing and pro-Bush, I would be giving very different advice--for instance, to focus on educating people, and helping to deprogram them. But I am convinced that that is not the case, and what we need to do is RE-EMPOWER and RE-ENFRANCHISE the big, existing, progressive majority.

[Skittles]

100. no

PROPORTIONATELY there are more people brainwashed in Texas than Illinois. For chrissakes Texas put up with that ignorant piece of shit for governor for SIX YEARS and so many of them STILL WENT FOR BUSH in 2000 AND 2004. THAT WOULD BE WHAT IGNORANT FOOLS DO.

[Sugar Smack]

35. Oop- That was Bouncy Ball.

:blush: You can kick my ass now.

[spindoctor]

27. Molly Ivins, Jim Hightower

Even if the biggest common denominator justifies scolding, you should realize that by generalizing an entire state, you include people like this (and apparently yourself) as well.

[girl gone mad]

91. and Ann Richards..

You have to be strong-willed to be a liberal around here, which is why we have some of the sharpest, toughest liberals in the country.

Just as Republicans see California as a breeding ground for future leadership, I think Dems should look to red state liberals for new ideas. If a liberal can make it here, they'll make it anywhere.

[Skittles]

101. like I said

stereotyping is wrong but there is no way in hell you can convince me Texas does not deserve its reputation, if not just for sheer arrogance

[LittleClarkie]

89. Well, it's sorta like insulting fam vs. someone outside the fam

You can call your brother an asshole, but I dare anyone else to do it, if you know what I mean. As a Texan, therefore, you have certain privledges. Does it bug you when a non-Texan does it, though?

I found myself defending my original home state of Virginia yesterday, because someone broke into dialogue that read as if it belonged to the likes of "In the Heat of the Night" or somesuch, in response to an idiot cop who wasn't doing his job.

I didn't realize I still felt that way about the ol' homestead. But I do think it's a form of prejudice in some folks. Sadly, certain forms of prejudice appear to be acceptable. Fat people, Christians (even on your own side) and Southerners.

I still remember a few folks who weren't too sympathetic here when Louisiana got hit, as they were Red, and all.

[Kazak]

118. Oklahoman here...

You'd be surprised at some of the organization that liberals actually DO have here.

[jus_the_facts]

7. INDEED..and thanks for sayin' it..now that New Orleans has been *cleansed*

....I doubt Louisiana will EVER go blue again as they did for Clinton...TWICE. :hi: :hug:

[electropop]

67. Now that Bush has slaughtered at least 1,000 Lousianans

I doubt the state will ever be Red again. Lousiana (not only N.O.) has flowed with the blood of Bush's victims. I doubt there is any Louisianan with no friends or relatives from New Orleans. They will not soon forget this crime.

[marions ghost]

8. I don't mind red and blue

to designate AREAS (or towns like the OP has done) but NOT extended to whole states. It's a misrepresentation. America is purple. And yes, it's a smug, obnoxious and divisive attitude. "Blue" anywhere needs to stick together.

[Sugar Smack]

43. Yes, there was that updated "purple" map that I

enjoy referring to. I consider it a hell of a lot more of a true representation.:D

WELL PUT, marions ghost.

[etherealtruth]

10. I really feel for liberal/progressives

... that live among the really "red"

I live in a blue area of a marginally blue state. Our RW'ingers (in general) are more subdued than those that I hear tales of here.

I am lucky not to have to deal with the issues y'all do ... no more, no less.

[BlueJazz]

11. I think you're taking it way to personal (which is understandable) but..

...I live in a "Red State" (Florida) and I'll be the first to admit that
parts of it are disgustingly red, like Hillbilly, Redneck Jacksonville. I've also worked hard to elect left-leaning officials but, quite frankly, there's a lot of idiots that you have to fight and overcome..
It just doesn't bother me what people say about red states,,I'm doing the best I can and that's all that matters..

[jobycom]

19. You can't fight and overcome the voters

You have to persuade them you are right, and the only way to do that is to respect them.

I've seen two Dems win state legislative seats in very Repub districts around Austin in the last two years. Both beat incumbents who were better funded and rather popular. They didn't win by "fighting and overcoming" the voters. They won by working very hard to convince voters that their ideology was best for everyone in the district. They also won by campaigning to the middle, while their opponents campaigned to the core Republican voters.

Winning means winning people over. I've seen a lot of DUers (not you) who seem to think that if our Dems stand up in Washington and fight, that if we quit trying to appeal to people, if we shout our liberal message louder and don't yield an inch, that somehow our minority of voters will defeat the majority who want either a conservative or a moderate. I think that's why we lose a lot of races. Too much talk of what we want, not enough of what the majority of voters want.

[Pacifist Patriot]

74. I'm from Florida and I have to admit I start to take things...

personally. Especially when some whacked out news story comes out of our state and we're met with, "Well what do you expect? It's Florida." or "Why does all that crap happen in Florida?" It starts to feel like we're the only state that can have bizarre things happen to good people.

So I can sympathize with taking the whole "red" state thing personally. It's a broad brush that doesn't do anyone any favors. Besides, Florida may look red after Diebold gets a hold of it, but you'll never convince me the pockets of red control this state at the voter level.

[RagingInMiami]

103. Every thread about Florida is guaranteed to have someone say that

[jobycom]

12. Comments like "sheeple" piss me off, too

I feel like there is no respect for humanity at times,and the whole reason I'm a Democrat is because of my respect for humanity, my belief that all people deserve the same rights.

To me, it's not us against them. It shouldn't be Dems versus Repubs. Our system is better for for the Dems, and the Repubs, and people who live in other countries as well. There is nothing to recommend the Repub way of thinking to anyone. That should be our message and focus.

I understand the frustration with Repubs. But people should understand that us Red State Dems have family, friends and loved ones who aren't Dems. The dehumanizing attacks on Red Staters does nothing to win us support. It only alienates people who should be on our side.

I'm sure most DUers know this. What happens is that we all snap from time to time, so any given day, you can find a lot of people who have snapped for a moment and are tearing into Red Staters. Mob mentality rules. But most of us are sane most of the time.

[Mr_Spock]

13. Texas is not even necessarily red. If not for TRMPAC & DeLay

Texas used to be very Democratic - if the Repukes keep doing corrupt and immoral things there it may switch back - who knows :shrug:

I know New Hampshire is being wrestled away from the Repuke dominance - slowly but steadily...

[whatever4]

14. I'll have to remember that

I'm in a red state, surrounded by them, and I'll have to keep this in mind while I slam the attitudes. It's hard. My state voted to ban gay marriage, and after that flew, I lost all resepct for my state. Fact is, most people around me really are that red, and are only now waking up. I slam my own state, not other states, for the most part.

Just want to shake them 'till they fizz. I'm figuring the world is going to do that for me.

[David Briggs]

15. Retail politics.

It is an aggregation of individual votes which comprises a majority. Winning elections requires appeal, one-by-one, to persons who are always subject to persuasion that their genuine interests are aligned with your won.

[Texasgal]

16. I always find it funny that

so many so called " liberals" are so ill educated about Texas or the south in general. I once had a DU'er tell me "that it must be hard" for me to live around so many "rednecks". I had to gently educate her on my very blue pocket of the state. :eyes:

I understand COMPLETELY where you are coming from.

[Skittles]

21. the fact that YOU were on DU

should have been her first clue!! :D

[Ladyhawk]

44. People think of California as "blue," but where I live, I have to keep

my mouth shut a lot of the time. This is a red county. About the only place I feel free to dissent is the local community college and even there a lot of the students and faculty are bushbots. It's disconcerting.

[readmoreoften]

87. Yeah, Austin is about as blue as it gets.

Come on, the city's slogan urges its denizens to stay weird. Austin votes about the same rate of blue as Manhattan. Lots of tattooed gun-toting hippies and women who make pottery for a living. Blue Texas is very blue.

[MadHound]

20. Thanks SugarSmack!

I too get tired of the vorciferous "red state" bashing that a relative handful engage in around here. The whole red state/blue state dichotomy is a false one anyway. In most states, there is only a handful of percentage points that seperates the two positions, for instance during the '00 and '04 elections, my state, Missouri, went for Bush by a 52% to 47% margin. Other states went for Kerry by the same, or lower margins. Thus, we can see that it isn't a monolithic grouping of voters.

This kind of bashing is counterproductive. It alienates voters that we're going to need next year and in '08, and energizes the opposition. It is thoughtless and cruel, and I too wish it would stop.

[Why Syzygy]

49. Right.

It's more about the electoral college. I don't like it any more than any one else that my vote doesn't count due to the structure of the system. We need our own delegates. We need a revision. That could very well put an end to election stealing.

Others know much more about this than I do. But the arguments I've read have convinced me, there is a better way to elect representation.

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/faq.html

[meganmonkey]

22. Thanks for the reminder about this, Sugar!

It seems like every couple weeks there is a spate of South-bashing and stereotypes. I am in the opposite situation, I live in a red area of a blue state, and I work in a blue area, but let me tell ya - even my area is turning bluer by the minute. Alienating people with judgment and stereotype is no way to change people's minds, and that is what we need to do!

:hug:

[Sugar Smack]

26. Yeha!

:D

I feel like things are starting to change too! This is a time for solidarity and patience with one another. It's just that I felt I had to vent because I've encountered some thoughtless digs and I suppose my patience has worn thin.

:hug: :hug: backatcha!

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

24. hell yeah. nominated.

[Sugar Smack]

30. Hey, I'd forgot about you! How are you doing, Tarheel?

:bounce:

Thanks!

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

38. just fine, Sugar Lips, even though I burned my nose at the game on Sat.

How are you?

[atommom]

25. Thanks! The red state bashing makes me weary too.

I live in one of the most frequently-mocked states, Kansas. I do get involved in local politics, and volunteer for causes I believe in (like real science education and gay marriage), even though the powers that be override my wishes at least 90% of the time. Living as a progressive in a red state is not easy, especially when the RW nuts are taking over the school board, other RW nuts are pushing us to adopt TABOR, and my (otherwise reasonable) family members are serving big vats of Kool-Aid at our family gatherings. :eyes:

The thing is ... any red state residents who frequent DU are probably here for information, and to feel a sense of solidarity. So insulting red staters here (on DU) will only anger and demoralize people who are working hard to change things in their own states. That's not going to do any of us any good.

[blondeatlast]

56. I know about 200 dyed-in-the-wool KS yella dawgs--you aren't alone.

They share my surname, my blood, or a blood relative. My ancestors raised us up right--er, left.

KS progressives may not be the majority, but they damn well have spunk!

[ms liberty]

28. Yea, me too!

I have to tread lightly here in my community, which is so bible belt red. I got my car keyed for saying we shouldn't go to war in Iraq. A lot of these people really did drink the kool-aid.But most of them are people who've had their religious beliefs hijacked by a caravan of snake oil salesmen and sideshow barkers who are stealing them blind while they're dazzled by the show.
I love my state, North Carolina, too. And it wouldn't be red if the residents understood what was really going on. Many of the people here are aware that we're headed the wrong way, especially economically, we've got terrible unemployment in my area, but they're being brainwashed as to why it's all going wrong.
It's so frustrating...and I should not have to defend myself for being southern, and for living in the south.

[Sugar Smack]

66. Got your car keyed. My God.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that crap. That's just a little icing on the cake, isn't it? What's more, I think this "albatross" we wear feels heavier because a) the political tides shift historically and b) it presently links us red staters on this board to the most dangerous, insane, criminal president this country has ever known.

:hug: Lots of luck to you, my friend.

[omshanti]

29. May I also add: give sports fans a BREAK!

I've seen a lot of negative stereotyping of sports (especially NFL) fans. We're not all armpit-scratching, beer-swilling neanderthals.

It seems to be a triple whammy if you live in a "red state", in the south, and watch sports. Just because I like my winters balmy and my sports exciting doesn't mean I'm a freeper.

Thanks.

[Sugar Smack]

33. LOL! Hey, guess what?

I LOVE your avatar. :D

[omshanti]

40. Go Panthers! Thanks!

:-)

Donno - really hope they can pull it off tonight. I know they haven't fared well against Brett Favre in Charlotte.

[spindoctor]

31. Idaho here.

I do not feel personally responsible for Bush's approval rating here.
Hell, I honestly don't know a single person in dire need of converting.

But instead of pointing the finger at us Red State Rebels, it would be wiser to support our fight. We're the only insurgents you have and your only hope of ever turning things around.

Then again, I have little respect for people who value demographics over individual accomplishment. Its pure bigotry and quite frankly not worth my time.

[MuseRider]

37. I really like the way

you put that. "We're the only insurgents you have." Interesting way to put that. :hi: Idaho from Kansas. I spent a very nice vacation in your state, loved it.

[CrackpotAmerica]

32. I agree

I never do that and steer clear of threads that condemn the whole, ignoring the individual.

It is the institution we should condemn, not the voter. After all, that is what this is all about.

:nominated:

[Sparkle]

34. Just be proud that you're not one of them from Texas.

You can't help it that Texas is so f'd up.

[Stevepol]

36. A lot of red states are red only because of the voting machines,

to wit, TX and GA and maybe more.

[Sugar Smack]

39. That is part of my point.

I agree with that; the Diebold fiasco has been dropped by some and kept in mind by others (myself included). I remember a HUGE amount of corruption and outright stealing in my own state.

[HughBeaumont]

41. Definitely DUH-High-Ah!

You can thank Grand Cyclops Ken Blackwell for that one. And DIEbold, run by two arch-Repukes.

Ohio DOESN'T have that big a Southwest/West population, save Cincinnati and Dayton. We have enough urban areas/cities lying along the east/NE/SE areas that could have carried this state, like they did in PA. I feel voting chicanery (machines, more votes than actual voters, long lines, deceiving exit polling, etc) fucked the citizens of Ohio and this country. Voter Watch groups need to do a better job in '06 and '08.

[Rose Siding]

140. Some went red in Congress due to redistricting...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2127522

The real story about Tom DeLay’s indictment in Texas goes far beyond the corrupt acts of a single individual. DeLay’s intervention in Texas state legislative elections was part of a concerted, nationwide Republican plan to control our government through political gerrymandering at the expense of black and Hispanic voters. I observed this process first hand as the expert witness for Democrats in the court cases challenging Republican congressional redistricting plans not only in Texas, but also in Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, and Michigan.

These latter four states are equally divided between Republicans and Democrats, yet Republican gerrymandering has resulted in GOP control of about two-thirds of their congressional seats.

[smoogatz]

42. Guilty, with this to say in my defense:

Blue-staters who rail at Red State ignorance, racism and fundie nutjobitude are, of course, not angry at the long-suffering, die-hard Democratic minority in those states. That should be obvious. And we're not altogether oblivious to the wingnuttery simmering in the more rural and insular regions of our own states--I live in Wisconsin, which had a bare Blue majority in '04; like many swing states Wisconsin's political divide is practically 50/50. In fact, we have a state legislature that might be the envy of any good Republican in Alabama or Kansas--our excellent Dem Governor is the only thing keeping our once proudly progressive state from turning into Indiana. But occasionally we must vent a bit of spleen when we hear that the Kansas school board wants to teach Noah and the Ark in biology class, or when legislators in Alabama express an interest in burning books by gay authors. We apologize for sounding smug or judgmental, and really--we're not talking about YOU. We just still haven't gotten over the fact that the '04 race was even close enough to steal. We haven't gotten over the fact that half the country (give or take) was actually dumb enough to vote for Bush AFTER 9/11, Iraq, the tax cuts for the rich, and the the whole appalling cavalcade of idiocy that is the Bush misadministration.

[Czolgosz]

64. I'm with you. People who freak out about the term "Red State" should

understand that the term applies to the majorities of voters in those states whose votes were counted for Shrub. The fact that certain states (including my state, Texas) have apparently developed Republican majorities says nothing about all the residents of the state (in fact, my part of the big Red State of Texas is decidedly Blue).

If I called Florida a "Retirement Community State," we would all understand that I was NOT saying that everyone (or even a numerical majority) in Florida was a retired person. We would all agree (I hope) that a young Floridian who thought I was calling him or her a "retired person" just because I referred to Florida as a "Retirement Community State" should probably not take the label so personally and should, perhaps, be a little less oversensitive about the label.

Why should anyone interpret the term "Red State" any differently?

As a Red Stater who is working hard to elect Barbara Radnofsky (our Democratic opponent to Kay Bailey Hutchison) and David Van Os (our Democratic candidate for Texas Attorney General) and numerous other Democrats locally, across the state, and nationally, I say this -- my feelings won't be hurt of you call Texas a "Red State." It's true, and I won't take it as a personal insult.

[no name no slogan]

45. I live in the THE bluest state-- parts are REDDER than the south

Minnesota is the ONLY state that went bluer in 2004 than 2000. The last Republican that got our electoral votes was Nixon in 1972. We are, quite arguable, the bluest state in our union.

However, there are parts of MN that are redder than the reddest parts of the south. I have relatives in this state whose necks are redder than any confederate flag-flying, backwoods inbred stereotype you can imagine. They make Jesse Helms look like Dennis Kucinich by comparison.

This country isn't so much red or blue, as it is varying shades of purple. There are pockets of blue in every red state (Austin, TX or Chapel Hill, NC) and pockets of red in every blue state (SW MN, suburban Detroit).

We need to value every Democratic vote we get, and not take ANY of them for granted. Oversimplification of our strength does nothing but keep us divided. And a house divided will not stand, much less win elections.

[TayTay]

46. Not from the South, but couldn't agree with you more

I don't understand the bashing at all. I read about people in the South who have the courage to stand up and profess their God-given right to being totally pissed off and I think, there goes one of my heroes.

Seriously. I think of all the amazing Texas libs, like John Henry Falk, and I find it inspiring, even for a lib in my mostly blue state of Massachusetts. (I live in one of the few towns in MA that did not go for Kerry last year or any year he has run, though last year was close. There are purple places everywhere in the nation. I think we should be giving voters in purple areas chances to vote for Democrats, not giving them reasons not to by being insulting.) I hated it when Massachusetts became the subject of so much bashing last year, I certainly don't want to turn around and do that to Dems in our sister states anywhere in the US.

[AuntiBush]

47. I don't think many of us mean it, per se

As a "northerner," my southern family called me a "damn yankee," before the 2004 elections (prior to me figuring out what all was going on), and were very mean, and arrogant towards me for no reason whatsoever. It clearly showed me on a personal level how some, not all, but some red-state, religious-rightwing folks do not like the rest of us. And this is family I'm talking about, whom I never had a problem w/since childhood prior.

I will never judge an entire red-state or people by what other's thinkg. Rather, I know plenty of Republicans/Libertarians and ever a few so-called Federalists that detest * & CO and what they've done to our country.

They always seem to have to tell me first (apologetically) they're Republicans, as if they're ashamed. And you are lucky living in a blue-town, within a red-state.

Kudos to you :hi:

[On the Road]

48. And People Wonder Why Democrats are in the Minority

Hint: It has a lot to do with belittling Republicans. Especially those South of the Mason-Dixon line.

Nobody who calls Democrats fuzzy-thinking elitist weaklings is going to get my symapthy. It works both ways.

[depakid]

51. That's exactly wrong

The reason Dems are in the minority is precisely BECAUSE they don't ridicule and belittle Republicans- instead- they legitimize them and their warped, corrupt and inept right wing policies.

If you don't believe me- turn the tables and look what Republicans have done to the Dems (not to mention liberals). Had the Dems fought back (seeing as how we have the facts AND the more popular policies) on our side, we might just be relevant today.

As to the South- pandering to them is a major part of the problem. Do they pander (or pay any intelligent heed to the blue states). Nope. At least not the majority of parochial ethnocentric bozos who seem to control the outcomes of elections there.

The sooner the Dems stop pandering to that shit- and start standing up for traditional democratic principles, the sooner people will come around- maybe even some of the less ignorant and intolerant folks in the south.

[On the Road]

63. I'm Not Talking About Politiicans

Howard Dean does not pander and is vigorously partisan. He is also a good example of NOT belittling red-staters. He should be the role model.

What I'm talking about is personal comments from everyday Democrats. You may think wer're all talking to each other here, but it gets through in the same we're aware of anti-Clinton hysteria. It is a huge turnoff to anyone on the fence.

We're aware of the insults depicting Democrtas as whining brie-eating communists. Don't think red-staters aren't aware of being depcited as drooling, slack-jawed yokels. It makes the Demcoratic party an uninviting place for people who might otherwise think of switching.

[Qanisqineq]

81. I completely agree

I've seen it happen to on the fence people. Who wants to be associated with people that ridicule you?

And the whole "this state is smarter than that state" is also highly repulsive. I grew up in rural North Dakota and 3/4 of my class (a whopping 36 people) went directly to college (2 or 4 year) after high school. This is a very rural community. Some of the others have gone to college later. In my class (these are only the people that I know what they are doing), there is a veterinarian, a lawyer, at least 2 engineers, a number of RN's, and a number of us (including me) with or pursuing graduate degrees in other fields. I know one that was planning on going to medical school but I haven't heard about him in years so no idea. And some went to college for agronomy or soil science and then moved back to the area and started farming.

Yeah, we're all so fucking dumb.

[bunny planet]

50. I feel the same Sugar Smack. I am a Floridian and I know plenty of people

in Florida (myself included) who are not knuckle dragging, gun-toting, Bush supporters who don't know how to vote. I'm getting a little tired of Florida being treated like the new New Joisey and sweeping generalizations made about the state. It wasn't the voters of Florida that caused us to be in the mess we are in, it was the stealing of the election by the Republicans in the Florida legislature, the election supervisors in the contested counties, Cruella De Harris, Jeb Bush, and the shameful SCOTUS selection that stuck us with this horrendous President.

[RagingInMiami]

104. Hey Bunny Planet, what part of Florida are you in?

[bunny planet]

111. St. Petersburg

[RagingInMiami]

114. Good to me you

It's good to see all these Floridians standing up for the state.

[Sugar Smack]

125. HEY! It was GREAT to meet you at the march.

I was the sweaty redhead. (hehe) How are you, my dearest?

[RagingInMiami]

136. I remember you

I got pictures of you. All decent of course. Ever since that march, I got real motivated and now I'm working with other people to organize things down here.

It was really good to meet you, SS. You were a lot of fun.

[crispini]

52. Amen.

[helderheid]

53. Thank you from Sandy Utah

[fujiyama]

54. I think people do it to feel superior about where they live

and it makes no sense really.

Aside from major urban centers, much of the country is to blame for putting Bush back in power. After all, it's not as though he didn't recieve votes in NY, CA, or my own state of MI. He just recieved fewer, and in the case of my state, only 3% less than Kerry. Hell, aside from a few areas in this state, much of it is pretty damn red.

There are a lot of braindead people across the entire US. Fortunately many are waking up though...

[dhinojosa]

55. WRONG! I am in a red state, and we need to continue....

...bashing in red state values.

I am not taking it personally, nor do I feel any sense of jingoistic pride in any state that I live in to be offended. My blue state values living in a red state keeps me going. I am now a New Mexican, but I was a Texan, and idiots abound in those two states, attack at will. ;)

[Sugar Smack]

57. I call them Republican values, not Red state values

And when Republican values echo or support Bush's values, you're right, I BASH them to RIBBONS. My point is that there are idiots all over the place. But I factor several things into my argument; there is a changing tide of support for Bush at THIS point (and God only knows it took long enough), this past election was an utter sham, and to be on a Democratic discussion board can sometimes feel like being on a treadmill when broad generalizations are still being made.

No attack ;-) .

[dhinojosa]

60. But those broad generalizations are because of one thing...

states and their electors decide who is president. That is why states get attacked as a whole, and generalized statements get made about it. ;)

[wellstone_democrat]

69. yeah, crybabies: what HE said

The electoral votes all went for Bush* here and my county went 90+% for him and the conversation here is endless platitudes on "values" and our *superiority* to "blue staters" and other vermin. But, god almighty forbid that I mention Tulia's mass false drug arrests of Blacks, or James Byrd without giving a big old disclaimer at the beginning. Those things *repeatedly* happen in regions of this state because they are tolerated. That isn't addressed by happy talk about how basically decent and wonderful we are except for "bad apples"

the good old "bad apples" argument. Now where else have I heard that lately.

[Czolgosz]

124. I agree. I'm also here in Texas and I see and hear the same stuff as you.

[Sugar Smack]

127. You were the one who posted the "slave states" thread, right?

If you weren't, I apologize, but if you were, you said you were originally from Texas and living somewhere else. Were you the one who posted that thread?

[Czolgosz]

129. Absolutely. Those maps were from high school text books. They did not

single Texas out. They did not single out the South. They did not single out the South West or the Mid West. They showed a nation divided.

The point was that the dividing line that seems to be splitting the country may have deeper historical roots than some people assume. I love Texas, I flew to New Mexico to work polls last election, I took months off a few years back to work a New Hampshire presidential primary for a candidate from the South. When I see a pattern which may give insight into the current political climate, I don't think it is a topic we should shrink from. You can fix a situation unless you are prepared to acknowledge some issue and discuss them openly.

I also see and understand that you're not happy about the Slave States map, and somehow you have that issue tied up in your mind with voter fraud. I cannot see how you could think that map somehow diminished the call for a fraud-proof election system because I agree with you about voter fraud. I am working against voter fraud, and I personally sat down with my county judge to make damn sure he didn't get our county Diebold or ESS voting machines.

Yes, I'm the one who posted the slave state map demonstrating its correspondence with the states Shrub carried. I think that's a coincidence worth discussing. I can respect your decision to abstain from that discussion if you so choose, but you ought not try to censure the conversation.

[blondeatlast]

58. Damn straight from AZ by way of KS, CO, and MT--no joke.

You won't find a bluer family than mine--I'm raising at least the fourth, if not 5th generation, but I've never lived in a blue state.

Every red area is unique, too, for why it tends red. In my area, it isn't fundie RW, it's taxes--and the reds in my area tend to not follow any ideaology.

Dangerous assumptions about red areas lose us voters.

Let's not hurt the nation by hurting others.

[Greyhound]

71. Don't know where you are, but here in my neck of the desert, my neighbors

for miles around are all fundie right wingers that believe * is doing the lords work, and support him unconditionally. They are the types that will key your car if you have a librul sticker on it.

[Sugar Smack]

75. Oh, that SUCKS.

I'm so glad you can log on here for some company.

[Greyhound]

77. Thanks. I swear it is all that has kept me off the roof with a rifle. n/t

[blondeatlast]

105. I'm in the Phoenix area. I know there are that lot out there

but in this area it's all about taxes (Sun City).

[theboz]

59. As a fellow Texan I agree completely

People should be judged first as individuals, secondly by the groups they choose to associate with. A person's sex, ethnicity, and where they are from should have no bearing on your opinion of them from a political standpoint. Especially when dealing with Texas, who has mostly been a Democratic state throughout history up until very recent history. There are many Democrats in Texas, and it should start getting bluer and bluer by the year, especially if people elsewhere stopped talking shit all the time.

[dogfacedboy]

61. This Nation is actually "purple", not red or blue.

How can anyone expect any state to vote in one direction? I live in one of the bluest states, yet I live adjacent to what is probably the reddest Congressional districts in this state. That's the way it goes.

[wryter2000]

62. You said it

It's easy for me to sit in Oaktown and be a liberal. There are lots of great people in the "red states," and they ought to be able to come here without suffering abuse.

[Jose Diablo]

65. Never been to Chapel Hill

but Winston-Salem is an OK place and I've been there many times. True it's pretty much a vote 'red' place but all the people I worked with were great.

Had a period of time working around Hickory with a guy from Chapel Hill, he was one of the smartest guys I ever met and he was as blue as they come. Even though he owned his own business and was pretty wealthy, he was as down to earth as they come.

It's true about a lot of bigots and racists in the south, but the south doesn't have a monopoly on that by a long shot. As far as the voting, I am not convinced that voting hasn't been rigged down here for a very long time. I am questioning that election fraud started with the machines and that maybe election fraud has been going on forever. Only now we see it better.

What we are seeing today with Bu$h is only the culmination of plans set in motion way back in the 60's.

I also get irritated with the NASCAR bashing. Sometimes I think this comes from people that aren't really with the Dem's but just stir things up by pretending to be wine-sniffing cheese-eating elitists from the northeast or California to promote an agenda of creating anger between the south and the other areas with democrats.

It's all about creating divisions within the opponents, thats what republicans have been doing as long as I can remember, going back well into the 50's.

[wellstone_democrat]

68. I live in Lubbock---I'll say what I damn well please

about what I see around me every single damn day.

[Sugar Smack]

73. Well DAMN good on ya, then!

Shit happens EVERYWHERE, but when I get treated to pre-civil war SLAVE STATE maps and the lovely assumption that there wasn't massive, massive corruption at the voting booth, I become a little defensive. And I'll say what I damn well please about it.

[Czolgosz]

126. You say that as if Texas wasn't a slave state. Texas has great heroes lik

Sam Houston who opposed joining the Confederacy. But in the end Texas was a slave state and it did join the Confederacy, and some Texans feel there is a legacy from that history and they don't think that they have violated some unwritten code of political correctness to say so. We should all be able to see that history is history and it's not spin, it's not propaganda, it's not fairy tale. No one is insulting you or Texas when they point out that Texas' history with respect to race relations has not been a Disney cartoon. I live in Texas and I love Texas so I don't need to sugar coat its history. If you don't think race plays any role in Texas politics, I think you are being naive.

[Township75]

70. As if Blue States are free of freeperism...

Look at Blue States like MI, PA, NH, WI, MN and so on...Bush almost won those states. So why do they get off? Hell, if he can get over 48% of the vote in your state, that seems pretty red to me.

That is why I think the red state-blue state thing is complete BS. It is just an over generalization for those with piss poor analytical skills.

There are left winger, right wingers, those in between, and those outside of the entire spectrum as far as I am concerned.

[Qanisqineq]

83. yeah, what he said (n/t)

[Township75]

92. Hey, how do you pronounce your username?

Just curious, not quite sure how to do it...does it have a meaning?

thanks:hi:

[Qanisqineq]

134. it does have a meaning

it is Inuit for "fallen snow floating on water". I love snow and that puts such a pretty image in my head that I used it as a name. As for how to pronounce it... your guess is as good as mine!

[deadparrot]

72. Blue city in a pink state.

I know exactly where you're coming from. :hi:

[Bridget Burke]

78. Such as: God must hate the Red States because of Katrina & Rita?

Spoken "in jest" by some of the folks who get all offended when anybody else brings up religion.

I PROMISE to say nothing the next time there's a big quake in one of those groovy states out West.

[Qanisqineq]

79. HEAR HEAR!

my biggest pet peeve on DU is the whole red state/blue state thing. Not everyone in a red state voted for Bush and not everyone in a blue state voted for Kerry. Living in a red state is not hell for a good number of us.

I grew up in a red state and never heard people talk about religion unless it was some church potluck or other activity happening there.

I also never really heard anyone discussing politics. My experience is that only in the post 9-11 days have I really started hearing people talk about religion and all that.

That's just my $0.02

[Wind Dancer]

80. You speak for many of us, Sugar Smack!

I can remember the attacks on the south immediately following the election and thought I had entered the damn Twilight Zone. Who even came up with the labels, "red state", "blue state"?

In the past few weeks, people in my conservative neighborhood are complaining about the criminals in office so we need to quit playing the divide and conquer game and come together.

:toast: to you for addressing this topic so eloquently, we southerners sure do appreciate it.

[cynatnite]

82. Red state bashing was bad after the election...

I still get a little defensive when it comes to 'red state' comments because of that.

[enid602]

84. Red States

I agree 100%. Blue voters in red states show much conviction and tenacity, and should be commended. Nonetheless, Blue staters need to realize that the Red States are not going to change, due to lower density, religion and infrastructure issues. The fact that population of Red States is growing faster means that our government will (over the long term) continue to grow redder as well. Current GOP scandals aside, an aging population means a more and more conservative voting public.

Sure, there will be Dem victories, Dem administrations, etc., but the essential battle will continue. Ultimately, I feel the Blue States will realize the secession is the only true answer.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

86. yes and no. take NC. red to the core, but...

Clinton took it. It produced Dem Senators John Edwards and Terry Sanford in the last few years, and has had a dem governor for a long long time. Why should it vote red for every president from now on?

[underpants]

85. Thank God for the spellcheck huh Cletus?

Just kidding.

[Redstone]

88. Well, shugie, you ought to know that when someone whomps on

a "red state" they mean ONLY the republicans, hillbillies, rednecks, and other bozos therein, not fine upstanding Democrats and / or DUers such as your ownself, of DUers in other "red states."

They do, don't they? At least I would.

'Sides, every state has its quotient of peckerwoods. Even my bluest of blue states.

And hey, my state is jam full of yuppies, who are much worse than hillbillies, rednecks, AND peckerwoods all put together. So I, for one, am not about to go insulting anyone else's state.

Redstone

[LittleClarkie]

90. But some of us get caught in the crossfire

Of the stereotypes. And there are some BLUE hillbillies and rednecks.

[lithiumbomb]

94. agreed

The generalizations do bother me. Also some of the defenses that I've admittedly glanced over are of the 'it's your fault for being offended' kind. That bothers me too. Georgia's gotten some bashing of late because of our Governor requesting that school systems take a two day break to save fuel. Yes it's dumb, but blame the Governor and his supporters. Blaming the state as a whole (or in the case I remember, the state of its education system) can be offensive, even if it's not intended. GA is far from completely red. It's very purple, like most of the country. So, take that into consideration if you're making a jibe. It's a bit harder than saying 'well Texas is stupid' but it might be worth the effort. :)

[Blue-Jay]

95. It's been a while since we've had one of these threads.

I suppose we're due.

[tavalon]

96. I agree with your sentiment

but may I have a pass to bash my own state, with the exception of all the fine upstanding blue folk here? I mean, come on, I live in Texas. Texas bashing is what keeps me sane!

[northzax]

97. by that logic, of course

we can't criticise Saudi Arabia for it's oppression of women, certainly not all Saudis agree with it, after all, and we wouldn't want to hurt their feelings. And we can't criticise Syria for arming terrorists, since not all Syrians agree, I'm sure. And we can't criticise republicans, since not all republicans are bush-bots.

heck, we can't criticize 1941 Germany, not all germans were Nazis, after all. it'd be unfair to hurt people's feelings.

it is a reality that you live in a state that votes against my best interests. Heck, you live in a state that votes against it's OWN best interests. I will call a pig a pig in that circumstance.

[Sugar Smack]

98. LOGIC?

Your reaction to my suggestion that we try and keep in mind the failures of Diebold, that we work together instead of increase the rift between some Dems because of our geography, and that lumping Dems and republicans into the category "red state" doesn't do much good- THAT's sound logic?

Your hyperbolic and shrill assertions that my suggestions are anywhere NEAR tantamount to not criticizing Saudi Arabia for its oppression of women/Nazi Germany/Syria & republicans floor me. Say what you want about "my state" voting against your & my best interests, pal. It's no skin off my nose, because you are one of but a handful of people who use rude exaggeration as a crutch.

And to the crack about calling a pig a pig:

[northzax]

99. ok, then

see, I wasn't trying to be funny? so your little pic doesn't have much connection to reality. but that's ok.

for something that's not taking a lot of skin off your nose, you sure are reacting emphatically.

I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings when I refer to the beggar states who suck at the federal tit while complaining about the milk, but I will continue to do so. The fact remains that there is a cultural divide in this country, and you are living in enemy territory. Any state that wants to tell me who I can, or cannot, marry, will be mocked (and that includes my home state of Oregon, by the way) any state that acts to reduce the rights of anyone, including but not limited to, women, ethnic, cultural and religious minorities, and children, will get mocked. any state that votes for bullshit cultural issues over the important issues of the day will be mocked. sorry if that's not polite enough for you.

If you can't bother to note that comments about political entities don't actually include every single person inside those entities, then I guess reasonable discussion is out of the question. There is no assumption on my part that you support the policies of any particular entity, simply based on geography, until you say you do. I don't take it personally, for instance, when someone criticizes the District of Columbia, which happens, oh, I don't know, at least twice a day. maybe I'm thickskinned.

you can blame diebold as much as you want, it doesn't change the reality that most of the so-called 'red states' aren't exactly complaining about the political nature of those states, right? Living under a regime that was fraudently elected without doing something about it is just like supporting it. Tacit agreement is the same as an endorsement.

I will now make another blanket statement: Californians were idiots for electing Arnold Scwarzenegger as governor. Any Californians out there take umbrage with that? did I hurt someone's feelings?

[Jose Diablo]

107. Gosh

You said, "I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings when I refer to the beggar states who suck at the federal tit while complaining about the milk".

You know, saying a phrase like the "federal tit" sounds suspiciously like a republican talking about "welfare queens". Remember Reagan? That was his justification to cut social programs. Did you vote for Reagan?

What she said earlier, makes a lot of sense to me. Whereas, you sound like, well never mind.

[northzax]

110. Actually, it's from Bill Kristol

and it describes the red states perfectly, doesn't it? Every single state that sent more money to the federal government than received in spending voted for John Kerry for president. The takers vote republican and cut the taxes, which are paid by the economic engine of the blue states.

Not one single 'red state' is in the top ten of economic growth.
not one single 'red state' is in teh top ten for educational attainment.
Two of the top 15 universities in the country are in Red States, (Duke and Dartmouth) and New Hampshire is swinging.
The ten most polluted states in the country? nine are red.

The states with the highest divorce rates?
The states with the highest high school drop out rates?
the states with the highest teen pregnancy rates?
guess.

sorry, I should apologize. that wasn't nice. In fact the model for the united states for the next 50 years shouldn't be Maryland, California, Washington, New York, Massachusetts or Connecticut, it should be Alabama, Mississippi, South Dakota and Alaska. Is that really how you want your country run? not that Alabamans, Mississippians, South Dakotans or Alaskans aren't lovely people, it's just that the states aren't exactly a paragon of the future. and I think most people, from this board, who are in those states would agree. If not, maybe you should reconsider.

[Jose Diablo]

116. I can think of a lot of reasons not to use Georgia as a model

for the country. I live in Georgia so I think I am qualified to say this.

First, Georgia is noted for disenfranchising voters. To say otherwise is not looking at history. But then again, I also think those ballot machines in Chicago and Detroit had the cogs filed. I've lived there too. So saying Georgia is unique is not looking at the whole thing.

As for the people, there is a lot of ignorant idgets here. Look at the ranking of the school system. That says a lot. But then again there is a lot of smart people too. The ignorance feeds the bigotry and racism. Looking at how much is spent though at the local level for schools, it is about the same tax wise, so where is the state and feds on coughing up the dough. It's going to pork as my state income tax is comparable to Michigan and Illinois. True, California and New York has a higher tax rate at the state level, but still. The politicians and real estate agents are united in saying Georgia has a fine school system. But what would you expect a politician and a real estate agent to say? Our schools suck? Hardly.

Like you said, as far as environmental issues, the red states are corporate heaven. That is why they came here. That and the lack of union power. Do you suppose thats why the corporations migrated here, not because of the bigots and racists but because of the cheaper taxes and less costly labor/environmental laws? If the people had any power here over the politicos, you can bet they would demand more. Why is this part of the country so corporate friendly though, how do the politicos get away with it? See above.

I don't know about the divorce and teen pregnancy rates. People like to screw here also. I will say this though, financial difficulty probably has more to do with the divorce rate that an inability to keep the zipper up. The teen problem is directly related to a lack of good information on how to use a rubber. There is no way to stop kids from screwing in todays social climate. Those religious nuts have screwed the pooch on that deal. My opinion.

But back to the "federal tit". Like I said, the republicans are the ones that push that meme, think Gingrich. It's very similar to the "welfare queen" of Reagan's.

All this is so much hot air though. In every case where all pay into a common fund, there will be some that get more back and some that get less back. Isn't that a populous view of why we pay taxes, for the common good.

And using a emotionally loaded phrase like "federal tit" implies it is wrong somehow to expect the federal government to fund certain people friendly programs. And it is the Republican Party that wants to drown the federal government in the bathtub. That phrase "federal tit" comes right from the RNC.

[northzax]

120. I know, that was the point of using it

the states that send a majority of complainers about federal spending are the recipient of the largesse. That's why I used it. The politicians that complain the loudest about it in general represent the regions that receive the greatest amount. It's like me complaining about you getting a lap dance while I have a hooker on my lap. I use it against them. It's like Halliburton complaining about 'big government' Halliburton only thrives BECAUSE of big government, not in spite of it.

oh, and for the record: Mitt Romney? fucking massholes. Think WillPitt will take it personal?

[Jose Diablo]

122. Well we agree about Romney

You know there was also a governor in Michigan named Romney. I wonder if they are related cause that guy in Michigan was, well I didn't like the guy too much either. seems like he was big in the Nixon admin somehow. And also was a bigshot for one the car companies.

Anyway, he talked about the taxes being too high due to unemployment benefits and such and I noticed the state income taxes went from 4 to 6% during his term. Thats a classic republican, complain about taxes while raising them and wasting money for the corporations yet not talking about that much. This was the mid 70's.

I NEVER complain about a lap dance. You ever get a lap dance in Costa Rico? Best lap dancers in the world, IMHO. But there was this one spot on the north side of Detroit, came pretty close to Costa Rico. Georgia on the other hand has the worse, still good though. I mean any lap dance is good, but some are better than others. California was A OK too on that score. And Texas, well those boys in Texas got it great in that regard. North Carolina is great also. Still, those ones in Costa Rico. One was so good she picked my pocket and clipped me for $8K, maxed all my plastic in one night. Can you believe that Jose Diablo allowed a woman to do that to him? <Sigh>

[Sugar Smack]

123. LOL!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[northzax]

128. you're looking for George Romney

but your topic is much more interesting. tell me more...

[Jose Diablo]

130. Well, it was all a mistake you see

I don't speak much spanish and I told the driver to take me some place with dancing. I had just came from a 'The pueblo', it's a old spanish fort in San Jose thats noted for it food and dancing. I like to watch the couples dance to the latin beat. But everything was closed because there wasn't too many tourists, it was only a couple weeks after 9-11 and hardly anyone was traveling.

Anyway, the taxi took me to a place that I thought was named "Puro Latino", thus I thought it meant Pure Latin meaning a dance hall for latin dancing. The next day I went back and noticed the name was actually "Puro Platino", but the first "P" was big and was also infront of the "Latino". Well, Puro Platino is not the same as Puro Latino. Puro Platino means pure platinum in anglo, I'd have guessed what it was beforehand if I'd of read it right.

Thus in all innocence I went in. And once inside, for me there was no escape. It's a weakness I know, but the truth is I'm innocent in my initial intentions.

Anyway, a gentleman never discusses what happened next. Was it worth it. Yes, I think so.

Thats the story.

I recommend both that establishment and the Pueblo if you are ever in San Jose, but leave the plastic in the safe in your room. My advice. Just take a couple hundred bucks or so, maybe three.

Edit: For whatever its worth, a coworker from Columbia when I got back to the states told me the spanish word puro is gender specific to women, thus somehow there is another clue if you see the word puro.

The is also a Cuban restaurant in the Pueblo. I recommend the tostones appetiser (thats fried bananas) and the Pescado I think it's called. Broiled fish in some kind of Cuban sauce. Very tastie.

[Wind Dancer]

113. There IS a cultural divide in this country!

It exists in every neighborhood, precinct, county and state. We have plenty of racism here in the south, Ohio has its share of fundamentalists, and the District of Columbia is unfairly taxed without representation. I am not going to hold the residents of DC personally responsible for that policy.

It's much easier to allow Rove to frame the language, "red state" and "blue state" furthering the divide between the progressive community. We are well aware of the corrupt politicians in every town, in every state. I can assure you there are many progressive activists working their asses off for change yet we continue to be attacked by "blue states" along with the right-wingers down the street. On occasion, we do get a bit weary.

Until we come together as people and address issues like corporate welfare, worker's rights, universal health-care, civil rights, poverty, etc., the 'divide and conquer strategy" of the ruling elite will prevail.

[darkism]

119. AMEN NORTHZAX!

This isn't a broad condemnation of entire populations of red states, but you have to admit that something is seriously ass-backwards with many of the people in your states and the way they are run. YOU can fix that though.

Go out and work to get progressives into office. Convince your fellow red-staters to leave the prejudice and superstition behind. Join the rest of us in modern civilization.

[northzax]

121. and, unless you are one of them

it's not a comment on you. When I call the people who vote for Tom Delay idiots, somehow I doubt I'm talking about anyone posting on this board, save people who shouldn't be posting on this board.

yes, if you voted for Tom Delay, and don't think you were an idiot for doing it, you don't belong here. Likewise, if you voted for George Bush, and don't regret it, you probably don't belong here. I'm sorry for the people living in places where the majority DID vote for Tom DeLay, or George Bush, I don't blame you personally, I blame your community.

all "you's" are, of course, general, not directed at this poster.

[Sugar Smack]

138. I got ya!

;-)

[MisterP]

106. I wish California could have a persecution complex

hey, they call us loony and out-of-touch and all other sorts of crap, but we also shoulder a big part of the burden of the other states!

[Sugar Smack]

117. Eh? Persecution complex?

With all due respect, MisterP, anyone caught questioning the point of view, as I've stated before, of a handful of people with divisive attitudes, gets flamed. I'm not an excitable person. I don't really know what this "persecution complex" is, because frankly, I don't like pain. This is not about the personification of states; it's about individuals working together.

[Rex]

108. Let em

They have to live around the political cesspool up North. Down here in the South politics is as crooked as it can get. I live Deep In The Heart Of Texas...I know some Northerners hate to hear that saying.

Deep in the Heart of Texas Motherfuckers!!!!

:evilgrin:

[HoosierClarkie]

112. It is truly horrible to lose friends and family because you are

trying to make their lives better. Every once in awhile I think to myself that they deserve to have Bush. Unfortunately, that means that I have to live with that too. That is why I put up with the egging of my car with kerry stickers during the election. The fat men with beer cans throwing beer on our dem float at local parades are the most fun. :sarcasm: I wish my state was different, but I am a much stronger dem for it.

btw hoosier=Indiana

[Batgirl]

131. I live in blue(ish) Michigan

and had to spend way too much time during the months leading up to the election, listening to my fiscal conservative boss waxing rhapsodic about Bush. He was a small busines owner who, like most of the good folks in Oakland County, believed a Bush administration was going to make him even richer. Thankfully I wasn't wearing a blood pressure cuff during my daily work commute, plowing through a sea of expensive vehicles sporting Bush/Cheney stickers.

This spring, my boss had to shut the doors of his business due to dwindling revenues. Oakland County is full of empty office buildings for lease, most of these structures having been built during the Clinton economic boom.

But do they get the connection? Between the empty buildings, the failed businesses, and the scoundrels they voted for (twice)? NO. They are every bit as irrational as the stereotypical blue collar bible thumper who thinks Bush talks to Jesus.

Michigan was uncomfortably close to giving its electoral votes to Bush. So I'll not be doing a lot of tsk-tsking about "the red states." We need each other if we're ever going to pull this car out of the ditch.

[FreedomAngel82]

132. Thank you

I live in a "red" state and a sort of "red town" (we can go either way and have had a democratic mayor in 1997-2001 and a democratic governor). I mostly try to ignore the bashing and all that. But thanks for speaking up from a fellow citizen in a "red" state. :hug:

[Batgirl]

133. aww shucks

and back at you with the hug.

[Stang8az28]

135. I live...

in a red city in a blue state. im sick of fundies and have left church to worship on my own due to their politicising of religion.

cant find an Intelligent political debate anywhere. im open to all viewpoints except the "because thats how it is" validation. give me legit facts about your views and i'll listen. Give me bu8llshit and i'll call you an idiot.

always question

dan

[Sugar Smack]

137. Welcome to DU, Dan.

You'll find some good debates here. Trust me. ;-)

[B Calm]

139. I live behind the Hoosier Iron Curtain. Bash it all you want!