Harriet Miers tithes 12% of her salary to her church!

[Atman]

According to a CNN report this morning on her diminishing finances. Supposedly, her net worth has been depleted to little over a quarter of its previous value since working for Georgy Peorgy. They blame the fact that she purchased a house, and owns another house -- which kinda baffled me, as I always thought houses were ASSETS, not liabities. And, if your house hasn't appreciated in the last few years of this real estate market, it must be located in the 9th Ward.

They also attributed caring for her mother as a financial drain.

So this woman is 60 years old, drawing down her assets faster than Bush downs a Hamm's 40, and she still tithing 12% of her salary to the freakin' fundie nut-bag church?

Is there any more clear indication she' just a fundie nut-bag herself? Where will this inexperienced jurist draw her legal rulings from, Benny Hinn? WTF?

The right-wing outrage over her nomination is all a charade. She is the fundiest fundie they could hope for, and they're playing reverse psychology mind-games on the public. The right wing would LOVE this loony.

We won't even get into the aspect of Bushie protecting his lawyer by giving her a high-paying lifetime job to help ease her into her ill-prepared-for old age.

[jody]

1. I don't support Miers but IMO her tithing is not a problem. Would you

criticize her if she gave 12% to a worthy charity, e.g. Habitat for Humanity?

[Atman]

4. Yes, I would as a matter of fact

The woman will have no assets by the time she's 75 at the rate she's going. Who'll pick up the tab, her Church?

Why is she giving SO MUCH money to a floating ghost in the sky when her mother is sick, and she has no other assets to see her into retirement. It shows terribly bad judgement on her part, imo.

[jody]

8. You object to giving to charity? Do you also object to taxing people

like Miers and letting the government use that money for the same purposes as a charity, e.g. building houses for the very poor?

[Atman]

11. Please read my posts

Just read them. You're asking a question I clearly answered in two other responses.

[jody]

13. I'm shocked, really shocked that a professed Democrat opposes taxing

the wealthy and using those taxes to benefit the poor.

Miers is clearly wealthy to anyone who barely survives on minimum wage jobs.

[Atman]

20. Show me where she is benefitting the poor

I'll wait.

[jody]

32. Miers was a long time member of the Valley View Christian Church

in Dallas associated with the Restoration Movement Christian Churches/Churches of Christ. Her church is involved in several Outreach Opportunities that easily show "she is benefitting the poor"

You can learn more about Miers, the Valley View Christian Church and her religious belief at Restoration Movement.

From your caustic comments, I conclude you don’t give to charities.

[Atman]

36. That is an assinine conclusion

I don't tithe to a church.

[jody]

39. If you give to charities, why do you object to religious people giving to

charity through their own religious institutions?

Sounds like you want to impose your personal beliefs about your private affairs on every one else.

Are you hearing voices telling you what to do?

I hope you don't hear a voice telling you to invade Iraq.

[onenote]

16. she's got between a quarter million and 500,000 in cash

(or to be more precise, money market and treasuries). She owns two homes. And you think she's about to be destitute? Welcome to DU Mr. Rockefeller.

onenote

[bunkerbuster1]

68. This has to be the *least* objectionable bit of info I've heard about her.

It sounds like she feels she's comfortable and wants to share with those who are not so comfortable.

She's probably plenty confident in her future earning potential; and why shouldn't she be?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

97. Maybe I'm missing something

Have you seen a financial statement that says she has no IRA or pension or something? I would assume she has a federal pension?

Does her mother not have her own resources?

I'm betting she makes way more than I do as a teacher.

[forintegrity]

2. Tithing more than 10% like tha Bible suggests assures her a place in

heaven AND a seat on the Supreme Court!!!

[gmoney]

35. She's 20% holier than thou!!

Literally, "tithing" means 10%... the extra 2% is either ego or just plain sucking up to God.

Maybe * is equally concerned for her financial security, so he wants to give her a lifetime post that pays extremely well and includes full benefits and a whopping pension should she retire.

BOOGA-BOOGA!!!

[Straight Shooter]

82. 12%, but the extra 2% is not ego or sucking up.

She is giving 1% for each of the disciples, excluding Judas, and 1% for Jesus.

The woman is savvy about Heaven's price of admission. :P

[gmoney]

101. Well, I was figuring different...

2 = 20% of 10, so to increase one's tithe from 10% to 12% of total income means that one is tithing 20% more than before.

10% of $100,000 = $10,000
12% of $100,000 = $12,000

$12,000 is a 20% increase over $10,000, or she is tithing 20% more money than someone making the same income and only tithing 10%.

I'm just sayin...

:hide:

[Straight Shooter]

102. Oh, I knew how you were figuring the 20% addition

I was just mocking Miers for adding the extra goody-two-shoes 2% ;)

I was I had disposable income such that I could donate 12% of my income to my favorite charity *sigh*

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. blood money

just wait for her judicial decisions. From benny Hill.

[QC]

5. I agree that Miers is bad news, but her tithing

has nothing to do with that. Lots of people give a percentage of income to a charity. More people, particularly rich ones like Miers, should.

This is a really, really, really weak attack.

[Atman]

7. See post #4

Her fundie church is not a "charity."

She's paying club dues so a floating ghost will save her a place in a paradise in the clouds.

And we want her passing judgement on our lives? Are you fucking kidding?

[QC]

17. "And we want her passing judgement on our lives? "

Actually, no. We don't. Try reading the post to which you were allegedly responding: it makes it quite clear that Miers is bad news.

In a nation in which 96% of citizens profess some sort of religion, attacking a person for his or her religious donations is a singularly ineffective, even counterproductive, strategy. Same for the "floating ghost" crap.

[Zynx]

21. Insulting the religious is not necessary.

First of all, it is just inflaming to those who are religious on this board. Secondly, it is not a productive political strategy in a country that is overwhelmingly religious in one way or another.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Some Folks Don't Care How Many Elections We Lose

After all being able to claim the mantle of perpetual victim is comforting to some people....

[Palladin]

22. "FLOATING GHOST"?

:wtf: OK, this is America, remember? On this issue, I don't give a shit whether she's a friggin Branch Davidian or Ameratsu Buddhist.
Or a freakin mouth like you. What's your persuasion, and where do you get off with such crap? God bless you.

[stevekatz]

23. opinions like th is

Are why we lose elections

[Atman]

27. LOL!

:rofl:

[BootinUp]

37. Well

It does show that you have as much disdain for fundies as they have for you. I have some of the same problems, heh. But the poster you laughed at raises a serious point. Divisive speech in the public realm does have its costs, and our party does have an image problem that directly affected the last Presidential election do you not agree?

[GR]

6. I Do Not Begrudge Her Tithing....It Shows Her Actions Back Up Her Words..

but I think she is a horrible nominee...because she is not qualified for this high post....because her law firm supports union busting...because her law firm help a client defraud investors to the tune of a $22Million settlement...because she cleansed Bush's national guard records..because she didn't help him deal with the August 6 PDB...because she didn't help Bush handle the Rove situation correctly...

Not because she tithes...

[MrBenchley]

30. You might recall

Reagan claimed more to once that he tithed, but actually didn't give any churches anything...

[Inland]

9. Well, I thought the lack of wealth curious, too.

She's in the top two percent of wealth, but at her age, without children, after a lifetime of work, including the private practice.....


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051003/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_miers_finances


She's making $157,000 at the white house now.....


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/administration/whbriefing/2004stafflistb.html

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. I just can't see how a person's charity decisions

are open for criticism. It is an intensely personal, private thing.

IMO

[Atman]

14. Those defending the tithing...do you tithe?

Just curious. This calling it a "charity," I disagree with. It's like a condo fee, it ain't charity. It pays for the huge cathedrally church maintence, the lawn mowing, the air conditioning. It's club dues, it's not charity.

Giving time to an inner city youth outreach program is charity.

Donating money to the food bank is charity.

Tithing is club dues, the Publisher's Clearing House of charities...if you buy a subscription, you'll have a better chance of winning the Heaven lottery.

And again, when your finances are tough, why are you giving 10-12% to a church? Will they kick you out and say you can't believe in God?

[crispini]

25. I disagree.

Although I am not a Christian, I contribute to my Buddhist "church." Here's the deal, for people who believe in something, that belief and the organization around that belief is a great source of spiritual comfort. Food nourishes the body; religion and philosophy nourish the soul; community nourishes the spirit.

[BootinUp]

28. Part of belonging to a church

is supporting it in some way either volunteering your time or your money. How else do you think a church will exist? As to how much one gives, that is up to the members of the church to decide what their guidelines are I guess. This is all common sense, I am not an expert, heh.

As to whether its a charitable donation, I agree with you that there are better choices if your aim is to help people, but donations to a church are not something I would attack someone for.

[Atman]

38. "tithe" means "10%" if I'm not mistaken

Although I'm aware that the literaly interpretation is not necessarily the norm anymore.

[AirmensMom]

40. Yes, I thithe.

My dad set the example and we have always done it. Some of the money goes towards running the church and some of it goes to charities. If someone is practicing their religion by tithing, it's certainly nothing that should be criticized.

That is not to say I'm defending Miers. I think she's a poor choice, but not because she tithes.

[Atman]

42. Look, I don't think her tithing is the reason she's a bad choice

Come on kids, get real. Why suddenly become absolutist? You're reading way too much into my omission of all the other reasons she's a bad choice. I felt this was the icing on the cake, and it helped make the point to me that the bullshit about her being an "unknown quality" is exactly that -- bullshit.

If she is tithing, even above and beyond the required 10%, I think it gives us a pretty clear indication of where she's coming from, and why Bush has chosen her. And why the right-wing fundies' outrage is all just a sham.

[AirmensMom]

84. Check out your post #14 and get real youself.

I was answering your question. There was nothing inflamatory about my post. Good grief!

[TX-RAT]

58. I'll put my money anywhere i choose.

And i personally don't give a Rats Ass whether you approve or not.


Have a nice day.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

94. Well, I'll go ahead and answer that.

I way more than tithe. I tithe to my church and then I probably double that with other personal charities, gifts, etc.

Now, I wouldn't tithe to my church if it were used to cut the grass. The AC, hell, yeah. I live in FL and I am not even going into a building without AC. The church has expenses and salaries. But our church also has a daily soup kitchen, a food pantry, a clothing "store" (free), substance abuse programs, counseling, and all kinds of community ministries that need money. (including the inner city youth ministry you mention above)

There were times in my life when I didn't give one red cent to the church... because I used the food pantry and the clothing store. Nobody said a thing to me. It is not a membership dues, at least in our church. I am Episcopalian. Once a year we have a stewardship drive where the Vestry tells what they need and why. We fill out cards with a pledge and then we try and keep up with it. If we can't, nobody says a darned thing.

For many years I substituted work in the pantry and food closet for money and also singing in the choir. But in recent years I have had more disposable income. It won't be long before I retire and I'm back into giving very little cash.

Nobody is making money off our church. The rector and staff get adequate middle class salaries and for their level of education (PhDs) they could probably do way better in the private sector.

While I do plan on cutting back my giving in the future, I am reasonable certain that I will always have abundance in my material goods and I believe it is my responsbility to share that with the rest of the world that is not as fortunate.

[Obamarama]

12. ".....faster than Bush downs a Hamm's 40."

ROFLMAO.

I just sprayed my liberal elitist Fourbuck's Vente Cafe Latte all over my monitor. Thanks alot...you oughtta give a person some WARNING! :-)

[FredfromSpace]

15. That is her decision. What matters are her COURT decisions

Which are what worry me!!!

:yoiks:

[Atman]

18. Exactly!

And what kind of judgement she shows.

[H2O Man]

19. I think there

are serious issues to consider in her nomination to the court. This in no way qualifies as one.

[LynneSin]

24. Tithing is charity - what's the deal about that

I might not necessarly 'tithe' but I give a portion of my salary to various charities like United Way. She happens to donate it through her church.

I don't want the gal as a Supreme Court justice, but tithing is a lame excuse!

[Atman]

26. Why I'm down on the tithing thing...

I have fundie sister & brother-in-law. Their lives revolve around their church. They live in a massive 5-bedroom McMansion on the Intracoastal waterway in Florida. They spent years helping the church raise money, and also tithed their salaries.

Now, to all of you calling this "charity," this is where we part ways. The actions of my in-laws seem all too common. All these years tithing had an end-goal. Filling up the big fund-raising thermometer on the church lawn. The money didn't go to soup kitchens, or the homeless. It was raised to build a massive crystal cathedral church with 4000 seats. Then, at Christmas, the pay the local television station to air their huge "singing Christmas tree" spectacle, complete with rented live animals, and the whole nine yards.

Now, it you tithers and charity-givers want to explain to me how this is helping any poor people, I'm all ears. But it seems to me this is much more self-serving and self-agrandizing than it is "charity."

---

On edit: Hey, I'm not looking to start a flame war. My opinions are just that, my opinions. I don't speak for the Democratic Party, I speak for me. I think tithing is akin to sending your money to hokum televangelist preachers. If I understand "tithing," it is a REQUIREMENT, not a donation. At least it is in my in-law's church, and others I'm aware of.

I'm perfectly willing to back off and drop this, rather than stir up a bunch of ill will here. And, btw, it wasn't me who said her finances are not in good shape. It is fodder on the cable news shows this morning, and I felt it worthy of comment. Sorry if my divergent view offends. I didn't think we were trying to be republicans!

[QC]

29. Generalizing one's own situation to the entire world

is seldom a good idea.

My church has been trucking food and water to Biloxi and helping people salvage their homes. We support a community food pantry. We don't do a singing Christmas tree.

[Atman]

34. Bravo. I'm glad to hear it.

But generalizing one's own situation to the entire world is seldom a good idea.


All generalizations are false.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

100. I might be ignorant or unaware

but I honest never knew of a church with a tithing requirement.

I can understand your feelings after your experience. It appears your relatives have not chosen wisely in their donations.

I find it hard to believe there is a church that does not have an outreach program, and that just exists for show, but I guess it happens. I suppose you could call the Xmas tree stuff mission-type work or something but I agree that is not my cup of tea.

[zbdent]

31. bet 12 percent is the minimum that she can pay to

maximize her tax breaks . . .

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Hmmm

Fundies are bad.....


Tithing is stupid.....


The God that 96% of Americans believe in is a "Floating Ghost".....


We should put this in the 08 platform..

[jody]

44. ROFLMAO

:rofl:

[Atman]

47. Yeah, I thought the 96% comment was funny, too!

;-)

[Atman]

46. 96% of Americans are RELIGIOUS in some way

Please don't confuse that with a universal endorsement of the same god in which you choose to put your faith.

That's, uh...part of what got us into this whole mess in the frist place -- the mistaken belief that everyone else believes the same thing you do.

Or should.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. Wow

You can read all that into my observation that 96% of Americans believe in God....


Wow- With that ability to read folks minds you should play high stakes poker....

[Atman]

57. I'm not reading anything into your observation.

There are divergent opinions. Divergent observations. Even divergent polls. I know I am in the minority. I find as much irony in your attempts to dismiss my minority opinion as you seem to find in my questioning of your numbers. So there! ;-)

Here...not even the pollster agree, athough there is no denying the pervasiveness of religion in America. I never even attempted to deny it. It was a label you placed on me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/wat/archive/wat042400.htm

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/039172.htm

[DemBones DemBones]

55. You're the one who doesn't get it that

the 96% who are religious in some way generally don't like it when someone is attacked for their beliefs or religious practices whether they agree with them or not. The religious DUers posting in this thread, myself included, don't agree with her conservative evangelical Protestantism but we defend her right to her own beliefs.

Give her credit for having attended this church for thirty years and supported it with volunteer work like teaching Sunday school, helping with the coffee and donuts for after church socializing on Sunday, and, yes, for tithing. Those facts should tell you that she isn't someone pretending to be religious for the sake of getting elected or appointed to a higher position.

She's a poor choice because a) she has no judicial experience and b) she's a Bush toady and thinks he's "brilliant."

[Atman]

60. Where the bloody hell did you come up with THAT????

"Those facts should tell you that she isn't someone pretending to be religious for the sake of getting elected or appointed to a higher position."

There is NOTHING even remotely close to that sentiment in any of my posts. Period. Nothing to discuss. You completely misinterpreted my remarks, either intentionally to make your own point, or in error. I'll go with "in error," and afford you the benefit of the doubt.

[TX-RAT]

61. Only person pointing out my beliefs are wrong is you.

But then, you don't matter.

[Atman]

64. Go on...keep trying...go on, tex!

You'll eventually goad me into something! Give it another shot. I'm not biting yet.

I made no comment directed at you, tex.

[TX-RAT]

71. I made no comment directed at you, tex.

Your right. Your comment was directed at far more people, than just me.

[DemBones DemBones]

49. Best response yet!

:yourock:

[imperialismispasse]

77. "The God"?

Which God is that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. I Was Careful Not To Describe What God....

Follow the thread closely......

[imperialismispasse]

80. I am

You said "The God that 96% of Americans believe in". You didnt say "God, which 96% of Americans believe in". You said "The God". You are specifying a particular God. I just asked which one?

[tx_dem41]

83. No....actually, by using the word "The" in this context...

DSB is being inclusive of all of the gods (deities, idols, etc, etc.) that people worship under the umbrella of religion.

Your suggested phrase seems to be restrictive to the single idea (usually Christian) of there being some entity called "God".

[imperialismispasse]

92. The semantics are very thick in here

Im out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. My Point Is When 96%

My point in when 96% of folks believe in some supreme being it doesn't win us many friends to dismiss that being as a "floating ghost" like he was Casper or something...

[JNelson6563]

43. Sure says a lot

another fundie thinking they can buy their way into heaven. America's loaded with 'em.

Julie

[DemBones DemBones]

45. Her money, her choice. nt

[Atman]

48. "Goes to judgement" as they say in court.

;-)

[DemBones DemBones]

50. We already know what you think of religion. nt

[Atman]

51. You have no idea

But you sure have some nice emoticons!

(Jesus! :eyes:)

[DemBones DemBones]

59. Oh, stop it, your earlier posts SHOW who you are. nt

[Maddy McCall]

53. So what?

This thread is disgusting. I'm glad that everyone is pretty clear that they don't see a problem with it.

[booksenkatz]

54. Is this her old church, or the new one she founded 3 weeks ago?

...the one that doesn't have a name yet and the little congregation of which is currently meeting weekly in a hotel room in Dallas. I can't wait to find out what she names her new church, should be interesting. I'm surprised she'd want a big job at SCOTUS, what with a new church 'n all. Busy, busy.

[CBGLuthier]

56. I am seriously curious. Why do you call yourself atman

When it seems as if you don't believe in anything "supernatural?"

Some could argue the word does not have to have religious connotations, but its source is certainly steeped in beliefs that cross over into that area.

[jody]

62. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[Atman]

63. I've studied some Eastern philosophy

"If you see the buddha, you must kill him"

I don't profess to be an expert, but I have my beliefs.

There is no "supernatural" involved in true Buddhist teaching. In fact, there is no -ism in true buddhist teachings. The "religion" was created by men who needed an order, and the buddha himself -- whomever he was -- was opposed to the very notion of a following. There is no "religion" in buddhism.

(BTW, I was NOT the one who claimed I had no religious beliefs. That came from another poster, who seems to have convinced others that I said that. I never did. I was raised Catholic, and Protestant!, and joined the community church again after our first child was born. Regularly had the reverend over for tea, the whole nine yards. FOO on you pre-judging me in your attempts to tell me I have no right to comment on who the president puts on the supreme court. I believe my religious background provides me some personal insight into why Harriet Miers is ill-suited to the SCOTUS job, and some of you are affirming that -- the perception that her opinions on how we all should run our lives will be guided more on her belief in a GOD, any GOD, than on the LAW. SSssssssssorry.)

[CBGLuthier]

67. Well, I know a little about buddhism

I will agree that the philosophy of Buddhism can be stripped of anything supernatural.

But the concept of ending samsara if not religious is at least a little bit supernatural.

To be honest this is smething that can be said about the majority of religious teachings. That the "supernatural" component may or may not be true but the philosophical component, the teachings as to how one should lead one's life and the righteous path to follow are usually concepts that can and should lead to good.

[H2O Man]

70. "atman"

The word is defined as "Hinduism: the supreme universal self; Brahma; the innermost essence of each individual.

Key: Hindu.

[Atman]

73. "H2O man"

The origins of atman are in sanskrit, meaning "essence, breath." The noun also means "one's soul."

"Key: Hindu"

So what? H20 man, Key: water.

I'm not sure what your point is.

[H2O Man]

74. Obviously. n/t

[triguy46]

103. Regarding the almost daily attacks on faith here...

The Constitution states there will not be a religious test to hold office, that is, there is no requirement of faith to be duly elected. What I sense from many of the posts here is that religious activity of any kind is exclusionary in the minds of many DUers, that such acts are to be scorned, ridiculed and if possible erased. Shit this tent's getting small.

Jimmy Carter tithes. Bill Clinton tithes. To each his own. I don't give a rats ass what Atman's dysfunctional relations do with their mega church. I'll continue to tithe, continue to fund a fund bank, free meals, clothes for the needy. And yes, some of that does go to mowing the grass, being unaware of the unacceptability of such use of funds.

[EnfantTerrible]

65. I know plenty of Democrats

who also tithe a portion of their income to the church they attend... what of it?

[tx_dem41]

66. Ummm....is there something really bad about this? n/t

[MadHound]

69. Look, I'm not in favor of Meiers becoming a Supreme Court Justice

But attacking her on the basis that she tithes to her church is just down right mean, stupid and uncharitable. Hell, at least in this area she is demonstrating the courage of her convictions, something that many many Christians either can't or won't do. She is practicing one of the docterines of her faith, and for that we shouldn't find fault with her. Hell, what's next, are you going to jump down my mom's throat because she too tithes to her church? A Southern Baptist church to boot! And my mom is one of the most liberal women that you will ever meet.

Look, I agree that Meiers is a horrible candidate for the Supreme Court, but rather than attack her on stupid petty BS, let us rather attack her on the real issues, such as the fact that she is a Bush crony supreme, and is going to be ruling in court cases on policy that she helped craft. Attack her on her lack of experience, or that she helped cover up Bush's TANG records, or on and on ad infinitum. But let us not stoop to this type of bullshit mud slinging. She tithes to her church, like any good Christian should. Big fucking deal friend, drop it already, there are other issues out there that are much more legitamite grounds to attack her on.

[Atman]

72. I've attacked her on ALL those things

And then I find out this morning that she also tithes to a fundie church.

This, after days of right-wing fundie "outrage" at her not being right-wing enough.

The point has been completely lost now. I'm being attacked for saying she tithes, but you seem to be missing the fact that I was pointing out that her devotion to a fundamentalist church might be an idication that she is more a wolf in sheeps clothing, and the whole "she's not right-wing enough" argument is a smokescreen.

Anyone remember that? It's in my first post. I reiterate...my position on her unfit-ness to the court is NOT predicated on her tithing. Her tithing, to me, is indicative of how she will vote on matters impacting the future of me and my children and my grandchildren, and I want those decisions based upon THE LAW, not her fundamentalist beliefs.

Is that clear enough?

[MadHound]

89. Sorry friend, but from the title of your OP, and the number of lines

You devoted to the fact that Meiers was tithing to her church, it came across to me that your main beef with her on this issue was that she was actually tithing. Perhaps next time one should make her fundemntal beliefs the focus of your post title and first two paragraphs, and leave the tithing bit for a five word sentence.

[Atman]

75. I'm done with this. My apologies to those I offended.

It was not my goal.

Please re-read my original post. Perhaps my language was too harsh, and masked the larger meaning of what I was saying. Too many of you jumped on the tithing angle, and missed what I was actually saying. That is perhaps my bad for the way I worded it, but I do implore you to re-read what I said. I did NOT say religion was bad, or that tithing was bad. I said her tithing to a right-wing fundamentalist church should be indicative of the way she will behave on the bench, and that the right-wing outrage is a smokescreen.

Again, I'm out. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but clearly I did. I apologize to all of you.

[faithfulcitizen]

86. you're forgiven.

O8)

[Dora]

76. Tithing is NOT the same as charitable giving, folks.

Once upon a time, when churches strove be communty centers rather than communities unto themselves, perhaps tithing could have been considered a charitable act.

But no more. Too many churches are multi-million dollar enterprises. Too many churches are resembling corporations. Too many high-dollar preacher-men profess God's word while admiring the white of their teeth as reflected in the shine of their fine Italian leather shoes.

If you tithe to your church and you're offended by any of the posts here, that's too bad. There are always exceptions to every generalization, and perhaps your church is exceptional. Lucky you.

Harriet Miers is dangerous, and her nomination must be stopped. If tithing 12% is the red flag that changes somebody's mind about her, then that's fine with this DUer.

[QC]

81. Or, more likely, criticizing Miers for acting according to her faith

could be the "red flag" that convinces some otherwise persuadable person that she is being attacked for being religious, thus feeding into one of the Radical Right's most powerful propaganda devices: the idea that liberals, Democrats, progressives, etc. hold "Middle America" in contempt.

There are many, many relevant reasons to attack Miers, like the fact that she's an obvious crony, stupendously unqualified, a sycophant, etc. There's no need to do something so counterproductive as to go after her for supporting her church.

[Dora]

91. I don't agree with your projected outcome.

You may be right. There may be some who will defend Miers specifically because of attacks against her religiosity. But I highly doubt that those people would have been against her nomination for any of the other less-inflammatory reasons out there.

As well, acting according to one's faith is not what we need to seek in a SCOTUS candidate.

[QC]

98. No, tithing should not be something we look for in a judge.

Neither should it be a detriment. It is simply irrelevant, particularly considering how many very good reasons there are to oppose this nomination.

[tx_dem41]

85. Well...at least you admitted you were generalizing.

I also noticed very little SPECIFIC knowledge on your part of the present church (split from the main church and meeting in a shopping center I believe) that Miers attends.

Even without that knowledge, you made a lot of general assumptions.

[Dora]

87. What are you talking about?

That was my first post in this thread, and your response seems to have a lot of other posts in mind.

You're right: I did not mention her church specifically, neither did I mention the split (yes, I was aware of that, thank you).

I didn't make assumptions. I posted one opinion.

[tx_dem41]

88. What am I talking about?

Your post...and your post only.

[Dora]

93. That clears it up for me. Thanks. n/t

[mondo joe]

104. Tithing is charitable giving. There is no issue.

You may dislike her charitable choice, but that's what it is.

And though I loathe fundamentalists I consider it none of my business if she wants to contribute to her church.

[Dora]

107. No. It's not. A tithe is tribute exacted by the church.

Charity is a gift.

I used a dictionary.

[mondo joe]

108. So long as tithing is the CHOICE of the donor it is a CHARITABLE

contribution.

And just like any pledge by any donor - this is her choice.

[Dora]

111. We're not going to agree, and I'm not criticizing tithing.

You say it's about choice, and I disagree.

The money I decide to give to my spiritual community to support its survival is not the same gift as the the too-small-for-me-but-in-great-shape boots I'm going to give to the next homeless woman I see on the street. They are NOT the same act. Period. Heck, if it was $20 and not boots, it still would not be the same act. Period.

Good for you that you can give to your church freely and without obligation. I'm sure they appreciate it and will spend it well.

Peace.

[mondo joe]

112. You're entitled to your erroneous position.

I don't have a church - I'm an atheist.

But to the point: tithing is a gift to a charity by definition. Her church is a charity, and her tithing is her gift by choice. It's a charitable contribution.

If you want to add your own little made up distinctions to what a charity is or what a contribution is, go ahead. But if you expect others to play along with your definitions rather than the standard or concensus definitions, you will not get far.

[Dora]

113. Erroneous is as erroneous says.

If you want to rely on your own little made up justifications ("concensus definitions" -sic) for believing tithing is equivalent to a charitable act, go ahead. But it's not.

An example of why this and you are still wrong can be illustrated by the common use of "irregardless." This word does not mean the same as "regardless": even though a majority of the our populace uses "irregardless" inappropriately, it still means that majority is wrong. Just because you and many Americans have come to believe that tithing and charity are the same thing doesn't make it so. It only signifies that our use of language has become imprecise and most people don't really pay attention to what could amount to an important difference. And if you want to counter with the argument that this imprecision that's endemic in our language doesn't matter, then I would remind you that the war in Iraq was justified by sixteen very imprecise words.

Don't fool yourself: A church is not a charity. The Red Cross is a charity. The St. Vincent de Paul Society is a charitable arm of the Catholic Church (which is a church, not a charity). Most people tithe to their church under the assumption that the church will use their money for charitable purposes, and also that the church will support them in their time of need. A quid pro quo, if you will. This is very different from an act of charity, because charity is direct and given without expectation of return. It is not an exchange.

If Miers tithing 12% of her income to her church raises eyebrows, it's because many of us don't trust contemporary evangelical Christian institutions. And when you consider her 12% tithe in the context that she and others have recently splintered from her church and formed a congregation of their own... Well, there's a lot of money to be made when you're on the receiving end of the tithe.

By definition:

tithe

American Heritage Dictionary

NOUN: 1a. A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church. b. The institution or obligation of paying tithes. 2. A tax or assessment of one tenth. 3a. A tenth part. b. A very small part.
VERB: Inflected forms: tithed, tith·ing, tithes

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To contribute or pay a tenth part of (one's annual income). 2. To levy a tithe on.
INTRANSITIVE VERB: To pay a tithe.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old English totha. See dek in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: titha·ble (tth-bl) —ADJECTIVE
tither —NOUN

WORD HISTORY: A tithe is a tenth, etymologically speaking; in fact, tithe is the old ordinal numeral in English. Sound changes in the prehistory of English are responsible for its looking so different from the word ten. Tithe goes back to a prehistoric West Germanic form *tehuntha-, formed from the cardinal numeral *tehun, “ten,” and the same ordinal suffix that survives in Modern English as –th. The n disappeared before the th in the West Germanic dialect area that gave rise to English, and eventually yielded the Old English form tothe, “tenth,” still not too different from the cardinal numeral ten. But over time, as the former became tithe and the latter ten, and as tithe developed the specialized meaning “a tenth part paid as a tax,” it grew harder to perceive a relationship between the two. The result was that speakers of English created a new word for the ordinal, tenth, built with the cardinal numeral ten on the pattern of the other regularly-formed ordinal numerals like sixth or seventh.

Oxford English Dictionary

gen. To take the tenth of, to decimate.

1. a. trans. To grant or pay one tenth of (one's goods, earnings, etc.), esp. to the support of the church; to pay tithes on (one's goods, lands, etc.).

b. With the tenth which is paid or delivered as the object: To pay or give as tithe. Also gen., to pledge or contribute as a levy.

2. intr. To pay tithe; to pay the tenth, esp. to the church. Revived in recent use in connection with voluntary church giving. Cf. TITHE n.1 1.

3. a. trans. To impose the payment of a tenth upon (a person, etc.); to exact tithe from.

b. To exact or collect one tenth from (goods or produce) by way of tithe; to take tithe of (goods).

c. intr. To levy tithe upon (in quot. transf.).

4. a. trans. To take every tenth thing or person from (the whole number); to take one tenth of (the whole); to divide into tenths. Obs.

b. spec. To reduce (a multitude) to one tenth of its numbers by keeping only every tenth man alive.

c. To reduce the number of (a body of soldiers, etc.) by putting to death one in every ten; also rhet. to destroy a large proportion of; = DECIMATE v. 3, 4b. Obs.

d. to tithe out: to take out by lot every tenth (person or thing). Obs.

e. To form the tenth part of (anything). Obs.

Hence tithing ppl. a.

charity

American Heritage Dictionary

NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. char·i·ties
1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving. 2. Something given to help the needy; alms. 3. An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy. 4. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity. 5. Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. See synonyms at mercy. 6. often Charity Christianity The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one's neighbors as objects of God's love.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English charite, from Old French, Christian love, from Latin crits, affection, from crus, dear. See k- in Appendix I.

Oxford English Dictionary

1. Christian love: a word representing caritas of the Vulgate, as a frequent rendering of in N.T. Greek. With various applications: as a. God's love to man. (By early writers often identified with the Holy Spirit.) Obs.

b. Man's love of God and his neighbour, commanded as the fulfilling of the Law, Matt. xxii. 37, 39. Obs.

c. esp. The Christian love of our fellow-men; Christian benignity of disposition expressing itself in Christ-like conduct: one of the ‘three Christian graces’, fully described by St. Paul, 1 Cor. xiii.
(One of the chief current senses in devotional language, though hardly otherwise without qualification as ‘Christian charity’, etc. In the Revised Version, the word has disappeared, and love has been substituted.)

d. In this sense often personified in poetic language, painting, sculpture, etc.

e. in, out of, charity: in or out of the Christian state of charity, or love and right feeling towards one's fellow Christians.

f. In various phrases: see the quotations.

2. a. Without any specially Christian associations: Love, kindness, affection, natural affection: now esp. with some notion of generous or spontaneous goodness.

b. pl. Affections; feelings or acts of affection.

3. a. A disposition to judge leniently and hopefully of the character, aims, and destinies of others, to make allowance for their apparent faults and shortcomings; large-heartedness. (But often it amounts barely to fair-mindedness towards people disapproved of or disliked, this being appraised as a magnanimous virtue.)
App. a restricted sense of 1c, founded upon one of the special characteristics ascribed to Christian charity which ‘thinketh no evil’ 1 Cor. xiii. 6; cf. also 1 Pet. iv. 8 ‘Charity shall cover the multitude of sins’.

b. Fairness; equity. Obs.

4. Benevolence to one's neighbours, especially to the poor; the practical beneficences in which this manifests itself. a. as a feeling or disposition; charitableness.

b. as manifested in action: spec. alms-giving. Applied also to the public provision for the relief of the poor, which has largely taken the place of the almsgiving of individuals.


c. pl. Acts or works of charity to the poor.

5. That which is given in charity; alms.
The phrase do one's charity, in 4b., easily passed into give one's charity.

6. A bequest, foundation, institution, etc., for the benefit of others, esp. of the poor or helpless.
The term, especially under the influence of legislative enactments, such as the statute on charitable uses 43 Eliz. c. 4, and the various modern Charitable Trusts Acts, has received a very wide application; in general now including institutions, with all manner of objects, for the help of those who are unable to help themselves, maintained by settled funds or voluntary contributions; the uses and restrictions of the term are however very arbitrary, and vary entirely according to fancy or the supposed needs of the moment; chief among the institutions included are hospitals, asylums, foundations for educational purposes, and for the periodical distribution of alms.

[nvliberal]

79. So what?

She has the right to donate her money any way she sees fit.

It's time to get off the anti-religious crusade and actually focus on her lack of experience and cronyism.

It's posts like this that liberals are held to ridicule by the fascists.

[wrathofkahn]

95. No pun intended, but

AMEN!! :D

[DanCa]

96. welcome to DU wrathof kahn

:hi:
cool nickname.

[DanCa]

90. Well i donate money to the episcopal peace fund and my church

Dont know what the percentage is . There are elements even in the fundie churches that go to help poor people ala meal on wheel programs and orphan ages. Unfortunately some of it gets funneled into the anti choice movement as well. Ah well it all comes out in the wash

[Beelzebud]

99. But remember. Her nomination was a victory for us.

Or so says the element of the democratic party that likes declaring every loss as some sort of "win".

[greekspeak]

109. Only with the Kool-Aid drinking branch

The rest of us have some brains and are not blindly optimistic. Well, maybe blindly optimistic is too blindly optimistic and naive. Maybe "playing lapdog."

[electron_blue]

105. I don't have a problem with it

And I doubt she ends up in the poorhouse.

Houses are typically liabilities for most people, not assets. Some people actually make a lot of money of their houses, but most people don't. You have to include all related expenditures (including property taxes, mortgage interest, lawn care, painting outside, repairing roof, etc.) against any profit you might make. Most people do not come out ahead - according to most financial experts. Still, you have to live somewhere, and it still might be a good idea to get a house. It's just not automatically an "asset" for most people.

[JerseygirlCT]

110. Plenty of people who are not "fundie nut-bags" tithe

why is that a problem? Can't she spend her money as she wishes?