We Are As Hollow As The Soviets Just Before The Collapse Of Their Empire.

[DistressedAmerican]

We are not a superpower. We are the hollow shell that used to contain a superpower. If we do not act fast to restore the economy and balance of this country, we will not last much longer.

Our economy is destroyed. We are spending like we never have yet, we are borrowing billions and billions from states like China, Japan, and Germany to keep it up. We owe China alone roughly 400 billion dollars at this point (twice the cost of the war in Iraq to date). As soon as those countries decide to cut off the funds, we are toast.

Frankly, it would be in their interest to see us go down. China is pulling itself together and will be a major economic powerhouse in this century. Do you really think that they will keep us on life support forever?

Our leaders have become fat, bloated, corrupt pigs. They loot the public coffers endlessly to fill their own pockets.

Our entire economy is dependent on oil. The costs of which just keep going up. As the supply draws ever closer to used up, that trend will accelerate. It will crush what meager viability we now have.

Despite ever growing and unprecedented deficits, the American public is still outraged by any suggestion of more taxes to pay for what we are spending. That goes for many right here on DU. I posted a thread a couple of months back suggesting a one dollar per gallon gas tax to help offset the deficit spending and I got flamed out from here until tomorrow. One person made the comment (yes I still remember it), "I know it is bad. But, I want to delay the pain as long as possible." That just about sums it up as far as Americans are concerned. Just put it off and let the kids deal with it.

Americans do not think ahead to the future at all. We are shortsighted and self centered. We need to shake that or we are history to be written about.

We are teetering on the brink and any little wind might blow us right off of the edge.

Sadly, the Bin Laden's of the world are more aware of this fact than our own population or our "leaders". His plan to break the back of yet another so called superpower is progressing nicely and all it took was 19 guys with box cutters. That is how close we are to collapsing under our own bloated egos and faltering economy. That is a sign of how fragile we really are.

Sadly, like the Soviets, we are also heavily propagandized to believe that (despite all of that) we are "Number 1". Most Soviets knew that their standard of living was falling. But, it seems most did not see the greater issue that the whole empire has been hollowed out by greed, corruption and foreign military ventures.

We will most likely not realize it either until the big crash comes.

Please do not be one of the deluded. Embrace the notion that we have to save this place and SOON or we are looking right down the barrel of a gun. Push your politicians to act fiscally responsible and start paying down this debt. Do not freak out at the mention of more taxes. They are NEEDED if we are going to survive. Demand an end to insane and offensively costly military actions around the globe. Remove the corrupt from office. They are not working to save us. They are destroying us.

Please do not let us collapse in a matter of years the way the Soviets did. Take action NOW!

[tk2kewl]

1. exactly why I am looking for the nearest exit

[DistressedAmerican]

2. We Seem To Be On The Same Wavelength This Morning.

Just found your 7 years thread. Funny thing is that I opened it thinking it may be a reference to the coming end of this cycle of creation as envisioned by Mesoamerican cultures such as the Maya. The current cycle ends in December 2012 and it is prophesied to end in floods, hurricanes and earthquakes. They firmly believe the process is underway.

[tk2kewl]

3. what exit are you looking for?

I'm thinking Ireland, being that I am an Irish citizen as well as American. Maybe New Zealand: It looks good on paper, but I need to take a trip there first (planning one for January). Or BC Canada.

That's my short list, unless I can take a crash course in speaking Greek.

[DistressedAmerican]

6. As A Mayanist, I Am Heading To Mexico.

I am going down next month to firm up the job prospects. I hope to be out by the beginning of February. I have many friends in the small villages down there. Some have all but adopted me.

Great folks and amazingly laid back area to live. The crime rate in the villages is nearly zero. Most of the crime that they deal with is drunks fighting. The biggest fear that they express to me is that the US wants to invade Cuba via the Yucatan. I try to explain that we are not planning any such thing. However, it it widely believed in the society.

My sister is looking hard at BC Canada. They are as close to what I would like to see America become that they are a very tempting choice.

Getting out and staying connected by internet is my vision of freedom from this evil cabal. I'll come back if we ever recover. Unless I like Mexico too much (a real possibility).

Keep looking for that door. You may need ot soon!

[Ladyhawk]

107. Those of us who can't run away: How do you feel about this?

No country is going to want a disabled woman. I have no choice but to stay right here, but I still want a way out if things ever collapse to the point of no return.

For awhile, I entertained ideas of leaving the country, but it just isn't realistic for me. The only thing I can do in the event of societal collapse is leave my body.

[leeroysphitz]

93. Wow must be nice to just "run off to wherever" like that... nt

[texpatriot2004]

95. So where can I find info about immigrating to Ireland? My kinfolk

came from there. County Cork. I hear they have a good economy. What's their Government like?

[julianer]

108. The Irish govt is right-centre

under the leadership Berty Ahern of Finna Fail(?) (Edit to change my mistake of saying he was Fine Gael, though they are so similar...)

Here's a link about the parties in the Dial:
http://www.unison.ie/features/election2002/index.php?ca=231

Sinn Fein are supposed to be making big gains throughout Ireland, but I heard that from a Sinn Fein spokesman so...

[bryant69]

5. That's a wierd response

I mean there is Canada and Europe readily available - would that be what you are talking about?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[tk2kewl]

8. yep

just a difficult decision

[bryant69]

14. I guess so

you mean difficult deciding where to go?

[tk2kewl]

18. weighing all the factors

employment, health care, education, language, climate, social factors, politics, distance from extended family left behind

[bryant69]

21. In what time frame are you planning on going?

Next six months? 2-3 years?

New Zealand is a long long way to go or come back from I guess if you are worried about visiting family members.

[tk2kewl]

23. I am thinking within the year.

I am selling a rental property now that I have owned for 11 years and I would still need to get my home sold too. I will have a decent nest egg (nothing crazy but enough to get set up and have some left over for a rainy day) but I really want to be someplace where there is socialized health care and education. New Zealand fits the bill but my wife is concerned about the distance. I really don't care much if we are on the other side of the globe.

[bryant69]

27. Well that would be a positive for you, I'd imagine

Given how much you seem to dislike your current countrymen. More space between us and you the better, I'd imagine. I could be looking at it wrong, though.

[tk2kewl]

29. it's only half of them that I got a problem with

but they are really fucking things up for the other half

[bryant69]

31. Only half?

THat doesn't make very much sense. Are you referring to the half that votes Republican?

[tk2kewl]

50. maybe you're right... it's probably much more than half

but it's about half in terms of my every day encounters.

way more than half of american is willing to go along with the fascist state described here http://organicconsumers.org/Politics/harpers101205.cfm

[bryant69]

60. That is an interesting article

I don't necessarily go along with it; I think the author cherrypicks a bit to make his arguement.

For example, in this section, "What passes for the American school of dissent talks exclusively to itself in the pages of obscure journals, across the coffee cups in Berkeley and Park Slope, in half-deserted lecture halls in small Midwestern colleges. The author on the platform or the beach towel can be relied upon to direct his angriest invective at the other members of the academy who failed to drape around the title of his latest book the garland of a rave review." This totally ignores the blog movement, which has grown and given new and in a few cases powerful voices. Not mine particularly because I don't get that many hits, but others like Atrios or Talking Points Memo or Media Matters are doing bang up work. It also ignores the cyber-activism of groups like MoveOn.Org.

But I certainly think it's more persuasive than the 14 points of Facism post you see around here sometimes.

Also I apologize if I have offended you.

[tk2kewl]

85. no offense taken... i have thick skin

;)

[DistressedAmerican]

30. Why Are Some So Fucking Hostile When Others Want To Persue

a life outside the states? I do not get your hostility. What's the problem with that? Please make it clear because I see these attack posts all the time.

I figured you were baiting based on your previous posts. This one confirms it.

Your anger is misplaced. How about you look to the assholes running this country that have made it such an unpleasant place to be that many desire to leave?

This has nothing to do with hating your countrymen. I have nothing against most of them. I do hate the elites and power holders that are destroying a country that I LOVE.

I will still vote absentee and keep working against Bush from whereever I end up. What's your problem with that?

[bryant69]

33. I'm not hostile

I'm being conversational - rather it's you who is coming unglued. I'm not attacking anybody.

I'm not angry either. Everybody's got their choice to make. I'm sorry if you are a bit sensitive about this.

I do note that you do seem very negative when it comes to America's future, and not in a constructive way usually.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Bryant I am as negative as she is

I have no way out, I will fight, but I don't expect this country to survive without a civil war, and quite possibly balkanizing into three successor states

[bryant69]

45. We'll have to see what happens

How do you think this attitude affects your interest in politics as they are now?

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. There are two kids who may or not grow up in the US

you knew... we fight for them... but I am realistic, this country is a powder keg, that has been at civil war (cold one) for over eight years now)... countries who remain in a cold war sooner or later go and fight a hot one...

And quite honestly I don't beleive the country will survive one as a country... it will balkanize.

[bryant69]

49. I don't think that's an option

The civil war largely settled that question. More to the point, the nation doesn't divide as neatly in geographic aras as it did during the civil war period.

But we will have to see.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Keep yuor rose ciolored glases they serve yuo welll

we are not a nation any more, just look at the british press. They NOTICED after Katrina was many of us have noticed before.

But if those rose colored glasses serve yuo, keep them on... don't say though that yuo were not warned. Oh and the civil war (hot portion that is) will start over some lunatic realizing they cannot get their way... ( am betting a rightie, and their vision is the Turner Diaries.

[bryant69]

61. I'd rather wear rose colored glasses than shit colored glasses

But frankly I don't think I'm wearing any glasses. Well I am, but they are perscription. And not metaphorical.

edited to add; I do not intend this as a simple comparison. Where a person with rose colored glasses would see everything rosy and wonderful, a person with shit colored glasses would see everything shitty and terrible. Not intended as a commentary on the person wearing them anymore than rose colored glasses is intended as a commentary on the person wearing them

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. I see

I am wearing the pragmatic kind, (apart of the prescription kind that is)

The pragmatic kind tells me to plan for the worst (and don't think it cannot happen) and hope for the best... this is a very sane attitude taken by disaster personnel and military personnel

that way when the worst happens you are ready.

Now if you intend to keep thinking that things are not as bad as some of us (even abroad now) are telling you they may very well be... that is very much your prerogative

Adults usually at this point say, lets agree to disagree.

Your turn.

;-)

[bryant69]

73. Well I'd hate to dissapoint you

But yeah, let's agree to disagree.

I also want to assure that I don't think that America is perfect or that we don't have any problems.

[DistressedAmerican]

46. No you came with a rediculous assertion that the poster in question

hated his/her countrymen. Yourself included since you referred to "us" in reference to the countrymen they supposedly hate. Your post was a bogus assertion not merited by any of the previous discussion. An attack.

As far as my negativity is concerned, America IS a mess right now. I have worked my ass off constantly for years to try and encourage a turn around. You seem to think that all I do is bitch. Your are sorely mistaken. I have been all over this country (from NYC to Crawford To DC) in the past few months working with the antiwar movement. I have a website (several actually) that works for change everyday. That is positive action. How dare you criticize my efforts?

You should stop with the unsupported allegations of our negativity and hate for our country. They are baseless. Why would you even jump to such unsupported conclusions if you didn't have a beef with those that are leaving for other places?

[bryant69]

48. I didn't use the word hate

I said dislike, which is semantically very different.

I will admit using the term us was perhaps a bit more provacitive than I intended to be. I apologize for the use of that term.

I will say that I do have an opinion on people choosing to leave America for these reasons; I am trying to reign in my opinion in an attempt to understand, but possibly I am not doing as well as I like.

You do seem to be taking this very personally - I don't mean to criticize your efforts. I do think you are very negative in your posts here, but it could be I am not reading the positive ones.

[DistressedAmerican]

52. You Don't Mean To Criticize?

What is this them? "I do note that you do seem very negative when it comes to America's future, and not in a constructive way usually."

Sounds like criticism of my actions to me.

Your opinion about people who leave the country for those reasons is showing more than you think. And you are not alone around here. I have seen it many times. As soon as someone mentions going elsewhere folks start with the attacks.

Why are people so ready to attack folks for seeking what they think is a better way of life? That is the pursuit of happiness. A Good thing in my book. I do not get it. Do you feel like we are abandoning you? Or do you think we are leaving because we dislike our countrymen? What is so bad about that?

Dislike or hate, the assertion was still based on nothing. You asserted it out of the clear blue. There was no such though or general sentiment expressed along those lines. You interjected the notion not the poster you were replying to. Again your feelings on this are showing loud and clear.

Certainly you are not the most hostile I have seen. But, you are part of a general trend of anti-expats around here. It should stop. There is nothing wrong with someone leaving the country. I do not care why they leave. They have every right to look elsewhere for their happiness if they think it is the right thing to do.

[bryant69]

57. Well let me say I have nothing against Ex-Pats in general

Choosing to leave because you can get a better job or a better life somewhere else, I'm all for that. I'd like to move to France myself (having spent some time there previously).

That said, I do draw a distinction between someone who says "I am leaving because i can get a better life somewhere else at least for a while" and someone who says "I am leaving because America is screwed and not salvagable." Those are two seperate reasons for leaving, and it is the second I have more of a problem with.

As for your negativity towards america that was in reference to your posts at Democratic Underground not to your life in general. I posted about your negativity, and you took that as a criticism of your life in general (and were quick to point out the protests you had attended and the work you had done). I'm not qualified to judge your life in general, but it seems like you do a lot of good things.

I am more qualified to judge your posts at Democratic Underground where your negativity makes me wonder why you do those things; the America you describe seems both unsavable and not worth saving. But, like I said in the last post, I could be missing all your more positive posts.

[DistressedAmerican]

63. America Is Savable And Well Worth It.

My OP was an appeal for folks to take positive action in that regard. I asked that people face up to the problems and their very existance before it is too late. That is the first step in saving the country. I went on to point out several major areas where we could work to make those positive changes. What is so negative about that? Recognizing the problems exist in the first place?

Clearly I believe that America is savable or I wouldn't do those things I listed and a lot more. I have far from given up on America. But, it does not make me some sort of defeatist to point out the issues that do exist and need work. Does it?

I defy you to find ANYTHING I have posted that says anything like America is a lost cause.

[bryant69]

66. Well I'm going to chicken out

I think I probably could find some stuff that reads that way to me, but you might argue that you intend it differently, and we'd end up in word games that don't go anywhere or accomplish anything.

So I'll just admit I was totally wrong, and you are completely right. Seems easier.

[BeTheChange]

92. One point..

if what is going down in America right now is what it appears to be...


You cant really run from it. We are talking about a nuclear powderkeg civil revolution, perception shattering event of complete uncertainty. This isnt the 1800s.

[Qibing Zero]

81. Some people just don't understand looking at things beyond country warfare

We're all human beings, and we all live on this planet, but for one reason or another there are people who will tell me that just because I was born in America by happenstance, I should stay here and fight to the death for it, and never visit my friends in good ol' commie Sweden. And how dare I mention I might want to live there!

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. I wouldn't see it so much as disliking my countrymen as

stepping out of the way of a trainwreck.

I was raised as an overseas brat and am very comfortable with other cultures - more than I am with my own, as a matter of fact. Moving to civilian US life -- now THAT was culture shock. The narrowmindedness, the insularity, the lack of curiosity, the suspicion of foreigners. I never knew a school that was not integrated, and was baffled when, as a kid coming home for the summer, I went to a swimming pool and all the white kids got out of the pool to give the black kids their 15 minutes, and I got yelled at because I didn't want to get out. Then, the little town I went to college in, in '72, they still talked about how the first non-white to sit at the drugstore lunch counter was not one of the local blacks, but the Korean professor that taught at the college. There are millions my age who lived through the American apartheid and remember what it took to get past it -- it's not so long ago.

What I'm saying is, if I saw the collapse coming and I had dependents to protect I wouldn't hesitate to get them to high ground. That not being the case, I'll stick it out, but I won't condemn anyone who chooses not to. This has never been a paradise, even in the best of times.

[tk2kewl]

55. "This has never been a paradise, even in the best of times."

Dude... you haven't been drinking your Kool-Aid, I'm gonna hafta report you.

[bunny planet]

87. Unfortunately, to a great

degree, America's trainwreck will spread to the rest of the world.

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. Afraid so. You can run... nt

[psychopomp]

106. I have my doubts

I am one of those people who went abroad for a work experience but I stayed past my planned return date when Dubya got in. Now, after the better part of a decade I suppose I have gained some perspective on the role of the United States.

The proliferation 2nd-tier states has shaped a world that will be able to work things out if the U.S. deteriorates, whether that be quickly or drawn out over a decade or so.

The various regions will have local power struggles in the vacuum of a "superpower" but once that settles down we will see that order predominates in human affairs in the end.

I hope ;)

[grace0418]

94. I'd move to New Zealand in a heartbeat.

Although it's difficult to get in. Small country, very protective of it's resources.

[Qibing Zero]

80. You make that seem like such an easy thing.

I wish it was.

[converted_democrat]

9. Us too.......

My family is making plans to go to Mexico. (They have an amazing number of ex-patriot communities there.) We were hoping to go to Australia or New Zealand, but it is amazing how hard it is to emigrate to another country from the states. My husband bought me Spanish CD's and I am slowly learning. We are going at the end of November to look for a house. We are spending two weeks and hope to come back with a home in place there. We figure we should have everything set and ready to go by summer next year.
My father-in-law lives with us now, and he is dying of Melanoma. They told us he had 6 months 2 years ago, and they are using experimental treatments on him now. As soon as he is gone, we are gone. - I know that sounds awful, but he is the only reason we are still here.
This martial law shit is scaring the hell out of me. I don't want my family to end up in a camp. With the way Bush has been pushing the military as the answer to every problem, I don't think we are over reacting.-- If it does turns out that we are we are wrong, and Bush isn't trying to become a dictator, then it will make a great vacation home.

[tk2kewl]

11. what will you and your husband do for work?

work, health care, and college education cost are the 3 biggest factors in my decision making process.

[converted_democrat]

15. We own electric, heating, and cooling business, and we

hope to sell it, and have enough to buy a bar\restaurant down there. (though it is hard to actually buy, mostly you can just find 99 year leases, which is okay with us.)

[tk2kewl]

19. what about health care... and do you have kids?

[converted_democrat]

25. We have a daughter that just turned three......

As far as health care goes, I'm honestly not that concerned. My appendix burst while my hubby and I were in Cancun on our honeymoon. I ended up in the hospital for 3 days, and had excellent care. The entire bill came to $1,100. The care was great and the prices were unbeatable.

[DistressedAmerican]

37. Completely Agreed! As An Archaeologist With A Camp Full Of Folks,

I have seen the ins and outs of that system. It is great. I have never gotten better care here and as you note, compared to our prices healthcare is a bargain down there.

I think that some folks still think 1950 when they think of Mexico. Not the case at all. They have a great infrastructure. The roads are great. Internet accress and cell phone service are just about everywhere. Great place to live!

[DistressedAmerican]

12. Where Abouts? Looks Like We May Be Expats In The Same Place!

I will be near Merida in the Yucatan. Great place. My wife is learning Spanish as well. If that is all it takes to be free from Bushland, I'd say it is well worth it. I can't wait to build my house. I will be looking for the land when I go down next month. Lots of plans to make happen. I am psyched. Mexico is great and the folks are very pleasant!

[converted_democrat]

17. We are looking in the Yucatan too.

Cancun, Merida, Cozumel are all on the table. We have to stay in a commercialized area in order to be able to have a bar/restaurant.

[DistressedAmerican]

24. I Will Gladly Come Give You Some Business!

Merida is a beautiful spot. I would highly recommend it. However, Cancun and Cozumel are probably better if you are looking for tourist business.

I hope that works out for you. I have been talking to my sis about a similar deal. I was thinking B&B with an associated dive operation. I would drop archaeology to become a dive master in a heartbeat!

[Tigress DEM]

100. I was thinking Canada this morning, but ....

I feel I need to stay and clean the mess up first or the US will just wreck the rest of the world. My luck they'd just decide to annex Canada.

There are a few HUGE differences between US and Russia at the time of their fall.

America truly has enough resources to support ourselves and the poverty we have is enforced by the rich and powerful. USSR truly has less and although they follow a simular pattern, their struggle to share what they have and provide for their people IS a battle up a hill in a strong wind compared to our simple knock-down, drag-out fight.

America has been moving toward/fighting against repression off and on most of our country's life. Our leaders left US INSTRUCTIONS in case of Tryanny.

We have a shared history of "what doesn't kill US makes US stronger."

We actually LEARN from OUR mistakes. NOT EVERYONE, but enough of US to keep the rest in line most of the time.

THE WEB PRESENCE in the Revolution.
* The way we support each other here on DU.
* The way the rest of the world hugged us back on, "We're Sorry.com" (The site that apologized to the world for our leader's insane warmongering.) They did also tell us, "We don't blame you, but please throw that bum out!"
* TruthOut.org
* All the Indy sites
* Will Pitt
* On and on

The Soviets faced their problems after years behind and Iron Curtain of mis-information. We got wind of the stink, logged on and started saying, "Oh, no, NOT in OUR Name you don't."

Our biggest liability? Because we have had a good system sporadically, it is going to be hard not to lapse back into apathy.

WE MUST teach our children and grandchildren to NEVER LET THIS HAPPEN AGAIN. We need to mark this time in history so BOLDLY that it will stand the test of time and be a WARNING to future generations to NEVER allow apathy to rule again.

It is going to be hard work. Harder than BushCo has even a glimmer of understanding. Seven generations or more will have to work our collective asses off to weed out the corruption in government and block its every attempt to return.

We have to reject the lie that "all politicians have to lie" as Bushit. That has been a colloquial plant for ages by the very people who want to get away with lying.

The answer correct is:
"Not in MY district."
"Not in MY State."
"Not in MY Senate."
"Not in MY Legislature."
"Not if he's MY President, VP, FEMA Manager etc..."

WHOSE HOUSE? OUR HOUSE?

BY WHOSE AUTHORITY DO THESE PEOPLE SIT THEIR BUTTS IN SEATS OF POWER?
BY THE AUTHORITY OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

AND IF THEY CAN'T HANDLE A SIMPLE CONCEPT OF TELLING THE TRUTH AND DOING THE JOB THEY ARE ELECTED TO DO, THEN WE DON'T NEED TO BRING THEM ON THE APPRENTICE, WE JUST "FIRE" THEM OURSELVES.

AND WE KEEP FIRING THEM UNTIL THE ONLY ONES WILLING TO RUN ARE THE ONES WHO "GET IT".

[highplainsdem]

4. Recommended.

[McKenzie]

7. much as I hate to say this DistressedAmerican

I think it's too late to do anything that will prevent the very worst from happening. Sure, there are some good people around but they are not holding the reins. If the shit really hits the fan, and things start to fall apart, the bulk of the poulation will be scared witless and will fall into line in any case.

The power blackouts in the US are possibly a symtom of worse to come. Over here, for example, it's been suggested that this winter will be damned cold. Concerns have been raised over the UK's contingency plan in the context of gas supplies if demand soars. This is only the begining. I can't even begin to imagine what will happen as the supplies get even tighter in the years ahead.

Some people are more optimistic. I can't see any reason for that optimism apart from the human tendency to avoid facing uncomfortable facts. "I know it is bad. But, I want to delay the pain as long as possible." is not an isolated point of view.

[McCamy Taylor]

10. At least they had jobs and education and health insurance.

[indepat]

13. Many factors were at play in the USSR collapse, but inability to sell

their paper to others was crucial. The US will bob along as long as others continue to buy its paper, but should the time come when others won't, the folly of the extremely reckless fiscal and tax policies, started in earnest by the Gipper and continued by GHWB and W, will be abundantly clear to all and it won't be pretty.

[enigma000]

16. The Soviet Union

is not the United States. The old USSR had a political/economic/social system that failed completely; free market democracy has not - if it did, you would not be thinking of going to Canada or Europe. I can't see states separating from the union anytime soon, like the USSR. The parts of the "American Empire" like Europe, Japan etc. don't ally with the US because they are under occupation but because of shared values and common interests.

[DistressedAmerican]

20. 480 Billion Dollars A Year In Deficits. Capitalism Is Not Working Out

so well me friend.

The gap between the rich and poor is ever growing. The middle class is under attack. I never predicted the states would break up. I said we were well on our way to ecomonic collapse.

Now talk to me about the huge debts we have incurred with our communist friends in China. Apparently they have extra cash to loan.

Political system is riddled with corruption. Our economic system is on life support. Our social system is declining rapidly with the growing gap between rich and poor.

Did I mention that people were starving in our streets?

You are dreaming if you think we can keep this up much longer.



While you are at it, talk to me about his chart.

[enigma000]

32. Of course its a problem

And, I agree with you, the US fiscal house needs to be put back into order. But this just isn't an American problem. Without the insatiable spending habits of the American consumer, financed by debt to China and Japan, the whole global economy would slide into a recession. China needs to finance the US government, in turn leading to low taxes and low interest rates, else its phenomenal growth rate will collapse - and that would mean social trouble.

Where else is there 300 million consumers, low interest rates and reasonable growth? Not Europe, not Japan.

[DistressedAmerican]

34. Well Mr. Bush Would Be Happy To Hear You Assert That.

BUY! BUY! BUY! We will buy our way our of finacial collapse!

Like I said, If you think we can keep this up, you are dreaming.

Any response to the graph? Who is going to pay that back? Consumer spending? I do not think so.

[enigma000]

54. The graph?

Yeah, someone's gonna have to pay that off.

It's not that bad in comparision to other countries.

2005 deficit financial balances: (%of GDP)

US 3.9%
EU 2.7%
Japan 5.3%

2005 net debt financial balances: (%of GDP)

US 49.9%

EU 58.1%

Japan 82.4%

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/5/51/2483816.xls

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. have fun thiniing that...

the raelity is it is far worst than you think!

Rose colored glasses and MSM watching cause that

[DistressedAmerican]

58. You May Be The First Person Of DU I've Ever Seen That Says The Deficit

is not that bad.

We have never experienced such deficit spending. No one know exactly what the results of that will be. It is unpredictable and it is a huge drag on the economy. I guess if we all just keep buying it will be OK.

[enigma000]

65. It's all relative

The US has a 12 trillion dollar GDP. It's deficit is 450 billion (?) about 4%. Don't get me wrong, this IS a problem and one that should never have gotten to this point. I just don't think the Chinese or the Japanese are going to pull the rug out from under the US.

And no, I don't think more American spending is not going to solve this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. The chinese have started,. rumors have it that they are not

buying as much debt as they used to... and right now our feds are very much busy proping this up

Granted, we should have noticed by now, but also rumor has it that the Feds ARE propping the Dow Jones Index as well, and the problem with this is once you play with tee safeties and ignore them or bypass them, when the crash comes it is going to be far more spectacualr.

granted the rest of the world cannot afford YET for the US to get pneumonia, but they are doing all they can to avoid the infection... why the workd is rapidly moving away from the dollar... remember the last time this happened was 45-48 when the world moved from the Sterlimg to the Dollar

[enigma000]

75. But what other countries have growth?

Japan has been stagnate for 15 years, Western Europe can't manage 1% growth. Who is going to buy all this Chinese crap?

The US is the hub of the world economy - it goes down, we all go down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Welcome to propaganda 101

the fastest growing economies that will buy all this crap are first and foremost the Chinese economy... followed by South east Asia and all of latin America

We are no longer the essential nation. Granted we sneeze now the world will get a cold, but no longer pneumonia

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. Japan is buying "all this Chinese crap" partly because its

economy has slowed since the real estate bubble collapsed.

There are "100 yen stores" all over the place, and they are roughly equivalent to dollar stores here, although they stock a wider variety of goods.

In any case, there are some isolated success stories in Japan, particularly in the regions outside Tokyo. They've had low or stagnant growth, but they're not dead yet.

Unlike us, they're still innovating, still thinking seriously about the future on a government level, and providing incentives for companies to become environmentally friendly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. China

taht is the next giant and where the economy is growing like gang busters, the capitalists are leaving this husk and moving to the next

[CJCRANE]

62. Trouble is

that * doesn't care about the American economy, consumer or worker.

He'd rather pull the whole place down with him than admit he's wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I will say the US may balkanize along culural lines

three successsor states at least may emerge from this... but even the brits DA have noticed.

[pattim]

67. Unlikely.

The United States is too monocultural for balkanization. The problem with the Balkans is that people identify themselves as "Serbian," "Macedonian," etc., just like Iraqis identify themselves as "Shi'a" and "Sunni," not "Iraqi." But, with the exception of insane partisans, Americans identify themselves not as "Bluestater" or "Redstater" but as "American." Balkanization would be impossible.

[Chan790]

68. Just an observation

but most Texans I know self-ID as Texans first and most New Englanders as New Englanders and Californians as Californians. I'm not sure than we're as mono-cultural as you think. It possibly may be easier because people are IDing by locality and not race or religion in which case there is usually interspersion.

[pattim]

69. They self-ID as such, yes, but only because it is assumed they're American

With the possible exception of Texas, Americans do see themselves as primarily American. Nobody gets misty-eyed in CA saluting the Californian flag, and nobody stands in Vermont for the New England Anthem.

[Chan790]

70. okay...given

Maybe we can convince TX to secede then? It's the most populous southern state so losing it would shift the EC and we could use non-residency to remove Bush and DeLay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Some of us have noticed that this self identification by region

has increaed, as well as by political believes.

Moreover, to paraphrase the Observer... (sent shivers down my back by the way), Americans are no longer united by a sense of being part of the country, but rather are moved, only by a piece of cloth... not only as a nation

Let me give yuo an example (and why the PNACers failed for other reasons) ON December 8th, 1941 the Recruiting stations had to turn volunteers aawy... we did not have the gear or the traiing facilities. They were given numbers and told to show back in three to six months.

On September 12th, 2001 this did not happen... it did not happen two weeks later either. The country was ataacked, the reaction was we are hurt, we are Americns, but by golly we are nto going to the recruiting stations. this was my first clue there was a major problem...

Granted we now know what has happened over the last few years, but the fact that people did not react like they have always reacted when the country is under attack is telling, and telling volumes.

[kineneb]

97. hold on there

I have Bear flags in preference to the Stars & Stripes. Do not underestimate the general feeling in CA. We rank as between the 5th and 7th largest economy in the world.

...a NorCal native (Bear Flag Republic forever!)

and since we are too poor to move, I have been considered asking the local Indians for political asylum...

[Richard Steele]

91. We were MUCH more "monocultural" when we had the Civil War.

Bad premise = bad conclusion.

[burythehatchet]

22. free market democracy? What's that?

America is not a democracy. It certainly isn't a free market. Its a fixed game. Its loaded dice. The rules are only for the naive and powerless. Capitalism is about an end game. Get it? In an end game someone has to lose. The existance of the United States at this moment is simply to provide the means for the world's kings (corporations) to permanently disenfranchise most the population on Earth. That's it. Resources are scarce, and 99% of the world will have to do without while Dick Cheney sits in his cave smoking his fat cigar and wayching little boys get raped.

[K-W]

89. This comparison is the the USSR before it fell, not after. EOM

[sweetheart]

26. it demands a collective awakening now

each a personal reconciliation with truth. The pillars of the universe
earthquake when people ascribe to truth. Your posts is very
powerfully written. Kudos.

I left years ago on seeing this very thing coming in like the tide.
Its gonna get very bad, that much is apparent. Savour peace, travel,
goodwill, internationalism now, as the future is increasingly looking
like a form of global house arrest as the world slumps in to a fear
terrorism paranoia world, a crazy nutter cutting his body with a razor
"get them off me" like in "Hellraiser II".

[NorthernSpy]

28. we've been further down than this before

It's true that things aren't so hot right now. And it's also true that we can expect things to worsen further.

However, remember that America has made it through worse times than this. It's just that having fairly recently enjoyed worldwide near-hegemony in just about every sense, it's hard for us to ignore the feeling of having deteriorated and lost our place as a country. That's probably also why the political right has been so defensive lately -- too many serious failures have happened on their watch, and the public mood is not really one that the right can make use of.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I know people like to look at things through rose colored glasses

that said, we are a shell of our sevles. People have noticed (An obsever and a Mirror story) outsdie the US.

We are as close to a hot civil war we have been since the lazy summr of 1860... and we may balkanize very easily.

I know, I know most people don't like to see it, but this is the worst we have been in literally decades, and insofar as a civil war is converned, in over one hundred years.

[earth mom]

83. Would you mind posting links to those UK stories? TIA!

And I just want to add that I want to get the hell out of dodge too...if it wasn't for my husbands job....we would be SO outta here! :tinfoilhat:

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. here is one

do a universal search and yuo will find them

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,6903,1562328,00.html

[earth mom]

84. self delete

[femrap]

98. I agree....I can see a Civil War here....

I know of family members and one-time good friends who no longer talk to each other because of W....some bought into the fear and greed and voted for W which left family members and friends aghast. The country is divided.

Then add in these crazy Religious wingnuts...who as far as I am concerned can have their own turf....Just watch the Supreme Court (and the Federalists who sit on it) give states ALL the rights....there will be NO UNITED STATES....there will be separate states declaring what is legal and what isn't..abortion is legal in some and not in others.

And on top of all of this....this horrid financial collapse we face. I have read a lot about the Great Depression...people aren't going to stand in nice orderly lines so to get an apple. Plus, back then people lived on farms and could feed themselves...that is not the case today.

I hate what these neo-cons and Corporatists have done to our country.

My only hope is Fitzgerald will put a bunch of them in jail...and that a FDR type will step up to the plate...a person with compassion, reason, honesty, and the great desire to put his/her foot on the throats of all CEOs and extinguish Deregulation policies.

I have enjoyed this thread....I think about these things quite a bit. Have often thought of leaving the US...Vancouver, maybe.

[RaleighNCDUer]

59. I disagree.

Sure, the great depression was worse in many respects, but at that time a quarter of the population still lived on small farms. We didn't have imperialist ambitions, and a three million man military trying to impose our will on the rest of the world. Many of the robber barons had already gotten their comeuppance with stock market crash, and people recognized that things had to change. And the oil industry was growing, not declining - peak oil was only a science-fiction scenario. If the US was poor, it wasn't because foreign powers owned most of our debt.

We have never seen a more dangerous time, other than perhaps the nuclear stand-off with the Soviets. And even then, the people in power knew there was no way a nuclear war was survivable - something the current crop of militarists seem to have never learned.

[PleadTheFirst]

35. Excellent post, D.A.

Tough medicine, but we as a nation need to wake up before it is too late.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. Empires fall.

It's too late to act to reverse the decline; there are too many external geopolitical forces at work, in addition to the internal malaise and rot. Most of our former allies/client states are divorcing themselves from the US sphere of influence; the rise of the euro as a major world currency and the emergence of China as a major player mean that America's days of economic dominance are all but done. The impending shift to the euro as a reserve currency and medium of exchange for petroleum will be the final nail in that coffin. The US is in the same position, more or less, as the Britain at the end of WWII; no longer the major player on the world stage, yet fighting against the reality of the twilight of empire. Now, we can rage against the dying of the light all we want, but it won't change anything. The only question for the future is whether the US is going to be able to adjust to the new reality of a reduced international role; Britain managed to make the adjustment, and quite well, following the missteps made by the Conservative governments of Churchill and Anthony Eden in the 1950's. Refusal to adjust is mere pride and arrogance, and you know what they say about pride and what it leads to...I really hope that's not where we're headed.

[Doctor_J]

41. Yeah

Our Fed's corruption puts the Kremlin to shame, even in its worst days. A billion and a half dollars per week of my grandkids' money being wasted in Iraq (like the USSR wasted theirs in Afghanistan), inability to cope with disasters within our own borders, capable people being fired and replaced with party apparatchik, a flaming paranoid imbecile at the top. We may be too far down the path to disaster to avert it. Too bad, we had a great run. But seriously, when you compare the Drooling Drunken Dunce to FDR, is it any wonder?

[rucky]

42. We're not dead from neglect. This is willful destruction

on behalf of Bush & Co. And if you consider that was their goal, they were very efficient and systematic in doing it.

Or were we headed that way anyways? even under the Clinton "boom" things felt hollow. Banking our economy on cyberspace and all.

[mopinko]

44. looking for the door, myself

got money in a 401k, which i fear will soon be, like * about ss "a worthless pile of paper". been moving into more conservative funds for a while now, but don't think there is a haven safe enough. the only way to really do anything with it involves hubby changing jobs. he would rather change his heart and lungs. sigh.

on the topic of hollow, tho, i remember there was a guy, some researcher, who predicted the fall of the soviet union before the cia because he was watching the infant mortality statistics. no nation is secure when their most important resource, it's people, is allowed to rot. just rot.

[pattim]

64. It would not be in China's interest to kill us.

China's economic "miracle" is quite frankly on legs as shaky as our own. The Chinese government worries it's sitting on a bubble--which is why they still peg their currency by and large to ours; they see us as a necessary stabilizing force in the world economy. But they need us. America is the source of China's growth. Without American demand, American capital, and American investment, there is no Chinese 8% annual growth. Their economy is utterly linked to ours--as is most of the world's. Europe and Asia can not "cut us off," any more than you could "cut off" your left hand's blood supply or we could "cut off" the rest of the world from American demand and capital--and globalization is only drawing nations closer.

And any comparison to the Soviets is bunk. We have a few problems, yes. But these times are not apocolyptic. Not at all. Our economy is sluggish, but has been in worse shape. And we have no resemblances to the Soviets. The Russians had a centrally planned economy with a bankrupted center. We have a largely self-correcting free-market economy. Our economy leads to boom-bust cycles, and we're headed from boom to bust, made worse by George W. Bush's terrible failures as a president. But that's much more recoverable than the Soviet economy. We have more capital, we have a worldwide trade network, we have a broader economic base, and we aren't in the middle of some boneheaded perestroika/glastnost overnight socioeconomic revolution.

And when have we had leaders who were <i>not</i> bloated, corrupt pigs? That's a pretty damn recurring theme through American history. Go to the nearest college library, and look through their microfilm archives of old papers. Read the editorial cartoons. We've had bloated plutocrat rulers since the Gilded Age.

Oil is the biggest problem, but once again is not the end of the world. It will likely cause a depression, but not the end of civilization. We have nuclear plants, and we will build more. We have ethanol production capability. As it becomes economically viable to switch, we will switch. Will it be hard? Yes. It will be nasty, and it will lead to at best a recession, at worst a depression. But America has survived several depressions, and we will survive several more.

Should taxes be raised? Yes. But are we hollow? Are we headed for destruction? No and no. That's outright alarmism, and such patently untrue justifications for policies, as right as the policies may be, only end up sapping support for those policies.

[progressoid]

71. "19 guys w/ box cutters" plus a retarded president & the 51% that elected

him. Apologies to people with mental disabilities for associating * with you.

[Greyhound]

78. DistressedAmerican is right and, I'm afraid, Mexico and Canada

are neither far enough, nor independent enough, to insulate amerikan ex-pats. I hold no illusions that amerika will react with anything other than violence to its imminent fall and demise. Hopefully it will be limited to internal strife but we are, by far, the craziest bunch on the planet, and we have lots of guns and nukes. Oh yeah, and we really love to use our military.
While we have come through bad times before, this time is very different. We are consolidated within the cities in far greater numbers than in the past, and we have lost all of our self sufficiency. "They" have, in the last 25 years, looted our national treasure, sold off our means of production, and thanks to Monsanto and company, eliminated our ability to feed ourselves.
Our population is illiterate and ignorant of the rest of the world which, thanks to our conceit and never ending propaganda, they hold in absolute contempt. It is too late, the groundwork has been laid and the masters are just waiting for the inevitable series of collapses to make their move.
I believe we are talking about survival, so the best chance is in a country that is really independent from amerika. I'm thinking France for my gang and New Zealand sounds like a great choice, although as stated in another thread, they are not exactly encouraging us to come.
Are you ready? :tinfoilhat:

[gulfcoastliberal]

82. Bravo! Recommended! We are FUCKED with the repukes controlling everything

The repukes will be in the position to control everything after the fall - just like the Russian oilogarchs did after their fall. As for the rest of us, well just look at how the poor in Russia are doing.

[dretceterini]

86. I lived most of my 57 years in Europe

and if you think things are better there, you are dreaming. A can of coke costs the equivelent of $5 in Paris, and even a cheap dinner out is $30 a person. Not much better in the rest of Europe.

The problem is our so called leaders, and the apathy of the general public. We need something more than continual pissing and moaning to change things. I hate to say this, but I think it might come to a time, in the not too distant future, that what is actually needed is a terrorist attack on the terrorists running our government.

If we got out of this damned war and quit giving Halliburton and other companies contracts without bids, and got rid of the 4 million illegal aliens (who's presence only provides cheap labor for the rich), we would actually have some money to improve out health care system and other things.

[Tigress DEM]

99. Apathy is what got us here, however...

We need to KEEP doing what we are doing now, WEED OUT the Corruption. I also think that if 60% of major corporations are dodging paying taxes then they need to be investigated and if their not actually hq'd in the Bahamas they should pay back those taxes.

I think we need to put on the ballot measures like approving corporate welfare items such as corporate jet fuel tax rebates that effectively let them pay .01 cent a gallon while the rest of us choke it up at the pump for our cars.

The public needs to LEAD for a good long time. We need to get up in their faces and stay in their faces until they hear us. We need to take them by the hands show them what the American people think needs to be done and give them a deadline of putting proposals together and finding a way to get the job done.

We need to demand a quota of honesty in politics by the common sense metric of bullshit walks. If an elected official says I will do X and does not, there better be a real reason* why not or he/she is OUTTA THERE - ASAP, if it's bad enough, impeach or recall.



*Valid reasons:

A) A better solution was found - not FOR the politician and his cronies, but for the public.

B) Some other real issue HAD to take priority or rearranged the priorities in such a way that a more inclusive solution needs to be hashed out even though the initial promise is still within that solution. (ie Katrina)

C) The politician is doggedly pursuing the right course, but isn't getting enough cooperation from the rest of the lege or congress or White House is blocking. (ie John Conyers out there pounding for US even though no one seems to be listening.)

[Tigress DEM]

96. i SAY, EMPOWER THE IRS TO SEIZE HALIBURTON'S $$$$

Until SOMEONE tells us what they did with 8.8 Billion lost in Iraq and why they were feeding soldiers rotten meat and making them pay $2 a gallon for gas when it was only .79¢ a gallon in Iraq at the time. Oh and of course, where they are hiding all the dead bodies in Louisianna from Katrina?

How about Rove's money too? Traitors who commit treason against the US of A should fork over their money and put it in the federal kitty since they stole it from the taxpayers in the first place.

AND let's get the courts, before those monkeys get going again, to tell the Airlines and the Car Industry that since their CEOs have been the ineffective means of their corporate malaise, that instead of granting them labor concessions in their bankruptcies, the court will slash in half all high level management deals. This will save the companies millions and millions and discourage futher "golden parachutes". Also grant them only about 1/2 of what they are asking for in labor concessions, since the people on the job have probably been saving the company's ass over and over again and should be the LAST to sacrifice again.

I'll pay MY share of taxes when the time comes, BUT I AM SICK AND TIRED OF Carrying the top 5% on MY Back. Them and their Hummers and Yachts are too DAMM heavy and it isn't MY place to give charity to those that don't need it and shouldn't be asking for handouts in the first place.

DOWN WITH CORPORATE WELFARE!!!

[Nothing Without Hope]

101. A famous Supreme Court justice said something very germane to this;

“As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air-however slight-lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.”? -- William O. Douglas (1898-1980)?Associate Justice, U. S. Supreme Court

Really, this Toles cartoon about Bush reflects what he has done to the whole country - it could be Uncle Same walking down the street:

[Nothing Without Hope]

102. We should show that there is reason to FEAR this Administration... BUT

we MUST MUST MUST have a positive, vigorous, inclusive PLAN, an AGENDA for moving forward, or else the fear and anxiety will lead to despair, chaos and violence.

[file83]

103. There is no escape from the Globalist Elite - Moving won't help.

When America falls, the entire world is going to get sucked down with it for a while. Nobody is safe.

[eridani]

104. The fellow who accurately predicted Soviet collapse sez we're done

Our infant mortality went up during Shrubbie's first term. That was one of the key indicators that Todd observed in the early 70s Soviet Union.

http://dominionpaper.ca/features/2003/07/26/the_concei.html

Nevertheless, if others are to believed, this empire has already been long in existence. "Get Used to It" was a recent headline in the New York Times Weekend Magazine.

That is very interesting. Now that the concept no longer corresponds to reality, it becomes commonplace. While there actually was a basis in reality, there was scarcely a mention of the concept.

<snip>

The only remaining superiority is military. This is classic for a crumbling system. The final glory is militarism. The fall of the Soviet Union took place in an identical context. Their economy was in decline, and their leadership grew fearful. Their military apparatus gained in size and stature and the Russians embarked on adventures to forget their economic shortcomings. The parallels in the US are obvious. The process has significantly accelerated in the past few months.

[donheld]

105. "I know it is bad. But, I want to delay the pain as long as possible."

Every minute we delay the pain, the stronger and more agonizing that pain will be.

[blindpig]

109. You have a special perspective of collapsing societies

being a Mayanist. We're going down and the people can't just walk away from this one. The land will not recover from our depravations so well either.

2012. Hmmmm.