Taking pride in your race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation is...

[The Night Owl]

In my opinion, taking pride in that which was decided by fate or heridity makes no sense to me.

To paraphrase Millard Fillmore...

As no man is responsible for the circumstances of his birth, they furnish nothing to be proud or ashamed of.

[porphyrian]

1. I pretty much agree with you.

I also feel that we shouldn't be ashamed of those same factors. No one controls the cards they're dealt, just how they play their hand.

[The Night Owl]

26. Exactly. Good point.

You just made me want to ammend my initial post.

[bemildred]

38. Yes. We all have to play the cards we are dealt. Well said. nt

[JohnnyBoots]

2. I think taking pride in where you came from is a good thing as

long as it doesn't become excessive or biggoted. I'd like to know more about my ancestors a few generations back.

[Abies]

3. What?

Doesn't the fact that your ancestors all made it to an age where they could reproduce mean anything? It isn't a small accomplishment, although it seems comparatively easy now.

[The Night Owl]

20. One can admire the accomplisments of ancestors...

One can admire the accomplishments of ancestors without attributing those accomplishments to race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation.

John F. Kennedy was a great man not because he was white, but because of what he did. Similarly, Martin Luther King was a great man not because he was black, but because of what he did.

[Abies]

42. I agree

Actions determine greatness, it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, etc. But we all come from somewhere and that has value and can be a source of pride. I have yet to meet a person who has been spontaneously generated.

[DJ MEW]

4. It is part of your self esteem

it is important to be proud of who you are. The other option is to be ashamed of who you are and that is not a healthy mind set.

I personally don't look at Gay pride as being gay pride. To me gay pride is the time to celebrate any adversities that I have over come and rejoice for all the great things that have happened to me.

Be happy, be proud.

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. An idiocy.

Pride in what is essentially an accident of birth is stupid. I can understand taking pride in something which is an accomplishment one has had to work for, but not is something one had no control over. It's like being proud of your eye colour, or something equally ridiculous.

[iconoclastNYC]

6. When the whole culture says you are less than

A nonwhite straight person it makes a lot of sense to be say : FUCK YOU to all that and express that you reject that and you are proud to be what you are.

[LSdemocrat]

7. To me, pride means preference to the alternative, implying superiority

[bluedawg12]

13. In tems of politcal movements pride is used in response to oppression

bigotry and hate speech.

When people bash a group: Jews, blacks, gays, atheists, hispanics, women, red necks, liberals there tends to be a movement aimed at creating a positive image and reinforcing dignity and asserting self respect.

I see nothing wrong with that.

[LSdemocrat]

19. I just think pride is the wrong word to use

To me the use of the word pride means that the individual would rather be one thing instead of another.

Awareness seems to the more appropriate term for what you are describing.

[YOY]

8. Pride has it's limitations and can be a dangerous thing

It is a poitive thing just as long as it is not used to make one feel superior to others who are not in that social grouping. When not put in check it can often lead to exlcusion of outsiders, a closed point-of-view, and at worst "bad -isms" (racism, antisemitism, etc...)

Personally I think pride is useless, but that's just my $.02

[Sentath]

9. Kinda silly

But I don't think I'll go so far as to call it a vice.

Acting on that idea tho...

[bluedawg12]

10. If there were no bigotry towards "hereditary" traits

then there would be no need for pride.

Gay pride parades began after gay men got tired of police harassment called the "stonewall riots."

It's disingenuous to say pride in race or sexual orientation is nothing more than being proud of an essential trait- it is a response to oppression of an essential state.

[Fenris]

11. I see Irish pride clothing on campus all the time...

"100% IRISH," "Everyone Loves an Irish Girl," "KISS ME I'M IRISH," and other stuff like that. I have a hard time comprehending shit like that. You're descended from Irish immigrants. But you had no control over that. Can you really be proud? What about "Glad to be Irish"? I think that sounds better. Especially if you've never been to Ireland.

I don't know, being of French descent, I've never thought about walking around with clothing that advertises what part of Europe my ancestors were from. I like that I am of French descent, but I just don't feel the need to advertise it.

[YOY]

23. That's why I made a shirt back in school

Brown Color. White Lettering.

The Front:

"Blow me I'm Italian"

On the back:

"St. Patrick's Day, a day when
everyone can be Irish, except the gays and the Italians."
-Kent Brockman (The Simpsons)

No...no one tried to pinch me...or blow me for that matter.

Wore it on St. Patricks Day because I think it's a stupid holiday and a lousy excuse to binge drink and act like an ass. It has virtually nothing to do with Irish Americans anymore. No offense intended to Irish Americans but Fenris' comment above rings true. I don't think too much of being an Italian American (as steriotyped as we are) and only felt the urge to advertise it to stop some of the idiocy. (and I have been to Italy the aprt my family is from is dirt poor and not too impressive.)

[JohnnyBoots]

30. I am of Irish lineage, and don't like the holiday because it

basicaly a metaphor for how the church overtook all the indigineous cultures/religions of Ireland. St. Patick chased out all the "snakes" out of ireland with his shamrock to teach the holy trinity. Who do you think those "Snakes" were.

[bluedawg12]

12. pride noun> consciousness of one's own dignity.

I am looking at this in a positive manner.

I see pride as being different from: prideful. i.e smug, superior, biogoted, self righteous, hey....that would be conservapigs!

[FlaGranny]

14. I should take pride

because I'm white? I should take pride because my ancestors came from a certain spot in Europe? I should take pride that I'm heterosexual? That doesn't make sense.

I take pride in being honest and (relatively) kind, with some shame thrown in because I feel it is possible to be "more."

[Ron Green]

15. ...the sign of a limited understanding of one's identity.

Being "special" in any way is buying into the idea that our differences are worth celebrating. It's our COMMONALITIES that bind us together in love, and help us seek accord. Being "proud" of membership in some exclusive group leads to enmity, and ultimately to war.

[LSK]

16. a vice...

Its something you had no control over. You should take pride in things that you yourself accomplish and have control over. I would lump Nationalism in this too.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. ...empty self gratification and ego stroking.

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.

[annabanana]

18. All "pride" like this (racial, ethnic, orientation, etc) is NOT pride..

It is just a principled refusal to feel SHAME for something over which we had no control.

"pride" and "shame" are opposites in the same way that "rising" is the opposite of "falling"... as opposed to "not rising".

[dickthegrouch]

21. Pride is considered one of the 7 "deadly" sins

However, when you have felt oppressed all your life for being different from the majority around you, the first step in smashing the chains of that oppression is finding the pride in being able to say "Yes I am (different), doesn't that make me interesting?" instead of running away and hiding.

I am Gay, and that first time I said so as a challenge to my oppressor was a tremendously good feeling.

What really makes no sense is why so many try to assert their supposed superiority by being the instruments of oppression in the first place.

Providing Pride doesn't become arrogance, I think it is a very good thing, even an essential part of development.

[The Night Owl]

24. I hear you, but I think a better slogan to express contentness...

I hear you, but I think a better slogan to express contentness at being gay might go something like... Gay and Unashamed... or Glad to be Gay...

White pride, black pride, gay pride... All those expressions of pride only divide us further.

[bluedawg12]

22. The opposite of pride is shame. I don't advocate shame

for human beings.

Some do.

[The Night Owl]

25. Right, but one can be unashamed without being proud.

[bluedawg12]

31. Is this about Gay Pride?

because no one else uses "Pride."

Should it be: The gay unashmed movment?

Or the: Humble but gay movement?

Pride is assertive not passive.

I like the term pride. A feeling of self respect and personal worth.

I am proud of many things.

I am proud that I am a liberal.

I am proud that I am a Democrat.

I am proud to be an American.

Those statements say nothing about conservatives, repugs, or the French. I am none of those but don't deny that those entities have a right to be proud- if they so chose.

I am not sure what the hell humble means or why it's a good.
It sounds wimpy, weak, and meek.
I don't care for meek either.
:toast:
humble >adjective (humbler, humblest) 1 having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance. 2 of low rank. 3 of modest pretensions or dimensions: humble beginnings. >verb lower in dignity or importance.
-PHRASES eat humble pie make a humble apology and accept humiliation.
-DERIVATIVES humbly >adverb.
-ORIGIN Latin humilis 'low, lowly', from humus 'ground'.

I know arrogance and superiority- and do not adovocate it. Nor do I want to be subjected to it.

[bluedawg12]

32. A vitrue and extolling

who I am when I say I am proud.

If it's the luck of the draw cool.

I believe in white pride, black pride, gay pride, straight pride, male pride, female pride and pride of lions.

These are subjective terms about ones-self and not against others.

Let everyone be proud of who they are and what they have accomplished.

I am not a humble liberal...I am a proud liberal.

[tx_dem41]

35. You didn't give us that choice in your poll.

I'm sure if you did, it would win hands-down.

[YOY]

28. I thought it was humility...at least that's the virtue tied to the vice

Nothing wrong with being humble!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. The opposite of pride (and shame) is indifference.

Just as the opposite of love and hate is indifference. Being emotionally involved with your ethnicity, sexuality, etc, is like being in love with your ears.

[BiggJawn]

27. I'm a straight white male.

I'm supposed to be ashamed of all of that.

[bluedawg12]

33. That's something to be proud of.

No reason to be humble or ashamed about being a straight, white, male.

That is much different than saying that by being a straight white male you are superior to gays, blacks, or women.

I think self-pride is self- respect and that is healthy.

[Zynx]

29. A vice.

It is very dangerous to base pride on a luck of the draw of sorts.

[bluedawg12]

34. Reverend Falwell preaching against gay people, said, "Even animals don't d

So is the response to statments like that, repeated thousands of times over and over again in the public forum of life:

"Well, gays are humble about being gay."

Humble > 1 having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance. 2 of low rank. 3 of modest pretensions or dimensions: humble beginnings. >verb lower in dignity or importance.

It makes more sense, in response to the on slought of constant anti-gay speech that gays say: " Hey, we are gay and proud of it."


http://www.fallwell.com/
"I was just 12 years old. My family and I were on vacation in Virginia. My dad and I were watching television in our motel room. Jerry Falwell's "Old Time Gospel Hour" was on. Reverend Falwell looked into the camera and, preaching against gay people, said, "Even animals don't do that."

That was the first time in my life that I ever felt unworthy of the love of God."

[Ready4Change]

36. Fine until used to diminish others.

Pride in what makes you you is fine until you start criticizing others for NOT being like you.

my .02

[bluedawg12]

39. That's not pride that's supremacy and that is what political pride

movements are responding to.

I have not seen any Gay Supremacist propaganda yet, but I have run across much White Supremacist agit-prop and Anti-gay heterosexual theofascist supremacist agit-prop.

[Ready4Change]

40. Agreed.

The way I decide my level of approval of such groups is whether they spend more time building themselves up or tearing others down.

[freestyle]

41. Sometimes absolutely necessary for survival n/t

[readmoreoften]

43. Is SOMETHING THAT WHITE STRAIGHTS NEVER DO

and they bitch about other people doing it.

It's a SURVIVAL mechanism for queer people and people of color who are constantly being told they are inferior. SO GET OVER IT.

--Gay and Proud. I mean "GAY & THE OPPOSITE OF ASHAMED AND CONTRITE AND OH-SO HUMBLE AND DON'T MIND ME I DON'T NEED RIGHTS OR DIGNITY"

This is a straw man argument.

[The Night Owl]

45. Violence is a survival mechanism...

Violence is a survival mechanism, and as such, is neither noble nor admirable.

[bluedawg12]

46. It is touching on a dishonest concept IMHO

perpetuated by conervatives:

that there are no sub groups of people who need special protection, or who have been persecuted, so there is no need for hate crimes laws, no need for affirmative action, and no need for homosexual men and women to have a strong response to hate shit speech- because gee, in America gays are not "special."

There would be no need for special considerations if some didn't lavish a special brand of hate on these groups. But it is not a level playing field and we know it.

Well, there are groups who have been and continue to be used as scape goats, or face discrimination and by God there is noting wrong in those folks standing up in response and saying: we are proud down to our very souls in who we are at our very core.

[bluedawg12]

44. Hereditary inferiority requires pride in heredity.

There is a reason that "pride" movements exist.

They are a strong positive message in the face of chronic, institutionalized, strong negative messages.

Some people say with hate that gays, blacks and Jews are by heredity inferior. They are BORN inferior.

How about, they are NOT! In order to reject the notion of hereditary inferiority opporessed groups respond with pride in heredity.

How about responding to hate and ugly bigotry with pride in who you were born to be?

........


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/nazis_in_america.htm

Nazi's In America

MYRNA ESTEP, ph.D.

>To promote his genocidal agenda, the "Disease Metaphor" was deliberately used by Hitler and his Nazi Third Reich theorists to promote the perception of a necessity to "cleanse" the body of Germany by ridding it of "putrid morally degenerate human filth" that had invaded it. So-called inferior peoples such as Jews, Gypsies, Blacks, and the poor, were seen as mongrels, racial and moral degenerates, an "insidious disease" infecting the body of society in the same way that cancer if left unchecked spreads throughout the human body:


"There is a close analogy between a human body invaded by a cancer and a nation afflicted with sub-populations whose inborn defects cause them to become social liabilities. . .When these inferior elements are not effectively eliminated from a (healthy) population, then. . .they destroy the host body as well as themselves." (5)<

[whatever4]

47. Neither and both

It's a recognition of self, both good and bad, by degrees. Virtuous to a point, on to vice, I think it's a spectrum.

[bluedawg12]

48. Hating people for that which was decided by heredity makes no sense

to me.

Pride movements are a response to those people whon hate by dint of a groups heredity.

Stop the hate and the pride movements will likely fade away as there would be no need.

[Duncan Grant]

49. As a gay man, I see it from a different perspective.

From my point of view, pride is an abstract expression. I would caution critics of "pride" not to take the concept too literally.

For me, pride isn't a response to the circumstances of my birth. Pride is a response to cultural bias and oppression.

It's good to remember what the cultural "ideal" is here in America. I can tell you it's not gay, black, brown, old, or intelligent. For those of us who are not the "ideal", it's nice to have just a smidgen of validation - particularly in the earliest stages of identity development.

Some of the whining in this thread about "pride" being boastful or arrogant is a false argument. The object is not to interpret the expression of "pride" too literally. The object is to increase your capacity for empathy.

With empathy, a person's connection to humanity increases - it isn't diminished. Just my .02 cents...

[bluedawg12]

50. I get enough wedge issues in the MSM and from Repugs

this is not helpful. This is not about the use of the word pride, it is about the use of the word pride by the Gay Pride movement.

Black pride has been eclipsed by other terms.

This just shows that Democrats are not that liberal on all human rights issues and as in some polls I have read conservative Democrats and liberal Dems are split roghly 50/50 on Gay rights.

This post is about Gay rights and has a familiar conservative ring to it regarding: "special interest groups."

[mattclearing]

51. I say vice.

Ultimately, it does not define who you are and what you do. It is a form of self-labeling.

[bluedawg12]

52. Protesters Target Gay Pride Events In 2 Cities

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x17503

Probably because they were offended that it wan't called:

"I a sorry for being gay day." Or " I am a mildly pleased to be homosexual day."

http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/10/101005outFest.htm

>This is their big day. But I'm here to rain on their parade," the 43 year old street preacher, who had flown in from Los Angeles, told the paper. He carried a sign that said the letters in gay stand for "God Abhors You." <

When human beings have to deal with this sh*t daily it's hard to see the relevance of the term "pride" in Gay Pride.

When people HATE you for who you are...your heredity...it seems a bit cavalier for calling out folks for being proud of their heredity.

Actually, the radicalright would argue that being gay is a choice not hereditary.

"God abhors you" nice, Christian, compassionate--HATE.

Not a problem- the problem is the word Pride in Gay Pride. geesh.

[notadmblnd]

53. ....shallow and pretentious.

nt

[bluedawg12]

54. The gay pride or simply pride campaign of the gay rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_pride

>The gay pride or simply pride campaign of the gay rights movement has three main premises: that people should be proud of what they are, that sexual diversity is a gift, and that sexual orientation and gender identity are inherent and cannot be intentionally altered.<

>Within the gay community, some reject the notion of gay pride, perceiving therein an undue emphasis on sexual orientation and a lack of discretion and modesty to the detriment of either public morals or the cause of gay rights; they propose to soften strident activism in order to better integrate into the mainstream. Others see it as depreciative of the identity of the individual; that one's sexual orientation should not be one's quintessential defining characteristic. Critics of such opposition regard it as pandering to homophobia.<

I think Millard Fillmore was talking abut class and aristocracy- not being prideful of being born wealthy ( he was not) or born privileged.

To pretend that the gay rights movement is analogous to being a prideful blue blood is IMHO disingenuous.

[The Night Owl]

55. I would never argue that the gay rights movement is...

I would never argue that the gay rights movement is some kind of a gay supremacy movement.

[applegrove]

56. Normal. As long as in sussing out your ancestors you take it all with

a grain of salt and do not forget important things about world history. Or ignore them. Like the backs of African American kids, mothers & husbands created much of the wealth & active credit in early America. As did the hard work and struggle of many.

Happy people are always slightly delusional. So are people in love. So if you are in love with your ancestors and heritage - of course you will look at that with rose colored glasses. It is what people do.

So long as you do not legislate these delusions - and legislate reality - it is okay.

Everyone has a right to photos on the wall, pop art, family trees and the like.