That Republican Attitude

[txaslftist]

I don't often encounter what I would consider a completely "Republican" attitude on these boards, but once in a while I see something that is so purely exemplary of Republican thinking that it is worth taking a second look at.

Last week I started a thread reminding folks that the working man, the man who struggles to make his monthly bills and make ends meet, is our natural base as Democrats. The thread degenerated a little bit into arcane economic theory about who was "labor" and who was "capital", and I realized that I had made some poor characterizations in the original post.

One exchange stood out, however, and it was along these lines. One of our economically conservative brothers made a comment along the lines of 'we're all working men, and that the man who must decide how to invest capital must work just as hard as the man who must receive hourly wages to make the ends meet in the middle each month.'

My response was, "If you can't see a difference between a man or woman struggling each month and working his ass off to pay the monthly bills and a man working his ass off to figure out where to invest his next million dollars, I can't help you."

The reply was along the lines of, "I can see a difference, all right. One is a success and the other is a failure."

Well, I thought about that reply all weekend (when I couldn't post).

I can think of no better example of what I call the Republican attitude. In the Republican mind, all economics boils down to a football game, with winners and losers. The winners are to be rewarded, the losers are to be dismissed out of hand with a 'better luck next time, sucker.' This attitude explains so well the economic policy that justifies tax cuts to the rich 'winners' at the expense of the poor 'losers'. It explains corporate welfare, it explains no-bid contracts, it explains cronyism as just rewards to the 'winners', whether they're wealthy or just well connected.

This is the attitude we need to stand against. We must be the party that recognizes that working people, hard working people, are the foundation of our country. They existed before large capital expenditures, they existed before large capital. They are not 'losers' just because they aren't rich. The man/woman who gets up in the early morning hours, works his butt off for minimum wages to put food on the table and clothes on the back of his family is a noble, integral and essential part of who we are as Americans.

We need to be the party that looks out for him/her, remembers him, and fights against the attitude that says he doesn't deserve the same opportunities as the one who strikes it rich. That's the Democratic attitude.

imo

[ComerPerro]

1. I know a girl who is fairly well off because she took money and made some

very smart investments.

A lot of my friends talk about how successful and smart she is, and how she is completely "self-made".

This, I think, is how Republicans see millionaires. They imagine that, at some point, they started with an initial investment, just like this girl did, and turned it into millions of dollars.

Well, here's the thing though: I wouldn't exactly describe her as a "success". She was given a crapload of money by her parents to play with, as long as she invested it. Not all of them did well. But a few did.

Same case with George W Bush. He is worth millions of dollars. But he is hardly a "self-made, hard working businessman". Look at his track record. Failure after failure after failure.

Its only because of his family's vast resources that he was able to keep starting businesses and keep investing money.

If you start with everything and end up with everything, then you haven't really succeeded. You haven't even done anything. All you've done is turn a lot of money into more money.

Big fucking deal.

Those people will never know what a hard day's work feels like.

[BOSSHOG]

3. I made a killing in the stock market in the 90's

and it had nothing to do with me being smart or making wise investments. I was very lucky both in choosing mutual funds and the timing of when we sold them. The timing was driven by the closing date of our new house, not by my brilliance. The stock market took a nose dive shortly after our sale. Maybe her "smart" investments were more lucky than smart.

[liberal N proud]

12. Thank you - The people who make money in Stocks are mostly

LUCKY.
There are stories where money has been made through investing wisely and moving it when it looked like the chips were going to fall, but most Stock Market success stories are pure luck.

[ArkDem]

16. Bears make money

Bulls make money
Pigs get slaughtered

Is what they say on Wall Street.

[alittlelark]

33. Many are Lucky in who they know...

They know when to sell.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. Or, They're Pros

They spend their whole working time on finding winners and culling losers. And, even they make plenty of mistakes. Any individual investor that makes big money while "hobby" investing is likely very lucky. The pros aren't necessarily lucky. They are tuned in full time. The rest of us should stick with professional money management and mutual funds.

I'm pretty sharp. I'm very educated. I'm well versed in economics, business, marketing, and finance. I still think i'm better off in funds with pro managers. Otherwise, i'm relying on the luck you described.

The Professor

[raccoon]

25. Thank you for sharing that.

Most people act like they made a killing in the 90's because they were such astute geniuses.

[Land Shark]

42. If rising tides lift all boats, what are those 90s investors so Proud of?

Gotta ask the question, Repugnants.

[Orrex]

9. Good points!

Republicans also have a messed-up vision of the so-called "meritocracy." In their mind, if someone has or has made a lot of money, it’s because that person merited that success, which is putting the cart before the horse.

It descends from their skewed worship of the fictional free market. They nominally assume that the market will weed out the “undeserving,” so that anyone who succeeds must, naturally, have deserved it.

Of course, that only applies if the deserving person is white, Republican, and (preferably) male.

[newportdadde]

24. So true.

You see someone with a huge house and think... "Wow they must be smar/worked hard/killer job etc." Reality is the guy was a looser who married well and she was a single child and INHERITED millions. Not a hard worker at all, just lucky.

[BuelahWitch]

31. She started off on third base

She was given that money. She didn't earn it.

[ComerPerro]

44. Yeah, that's how I see it. But don't get me wrong, she doesn't

have an ego about it.

Its just that the way some people talk about her is insane.

Yeah, granted, she didn't just blow the money or buy some useless crap.

But, it doesn't change the fact that she at least had an opportunity to invest some money. Not everyone gets that opportunity.

Why our system rewards people who only manipulate money and earn interest, while punishing those who actually work and do labor for their earnings, is beyond me.

But republicans seem to think this is ok.

I think part of it is because Republicans (the general population, not the actual millionare republicans) assume that everyone with money and title had to work just as hard as they do, and that this wealth is their reward for their hard work.

These people were sold on the American dream, and fell for it hard.

They just assume that people of wealth work hard for their money. The more money, the harder you work.

Its just not the case.

[Beetwasher]

39. Delete

n/t

[roguevalley]

56. my dad worked from 3 am to nine the next night every day for

decades. He was a man who raised a family and has nothing more than that and his principles and honor to show for it. I feel for people who have never faced the struggle most of us have. When the revolution comes and things get tough, they will be the first to fall into a ditch. That poster is a fucker. What a terrible thing to say about someone who hasn't fucked wall street to get a cushion against daily life and its inequities. I hope he never gets a reversal. I would hate to think he would join my dad as one of life's 'failures'.

The fucker.

RV, fuming too

Upon reflection: I wrote this when angry. It is directed against no one in particular, even the poster. There is a war going on in this country and the poor and working poor and lower middle class have been demonized by people who should know better. The day we turned away from this element of our historical constituency was a black day for our party. I pray for the people who work hard and have to struggle. I was one of them for too damned long and even though I have a nest egg on Wall street doesn't mean I have forgotten where I came from. On the contrary, I am more aware of it, and my responsibilities to that part than ever.

[BOSSHOG]

2. Good Point

The people who live(d) in New Orleans lower ninth ward who made the beds and cleaned the hotel rooms in the quarter and who picked up the trash in the streets and sacked groceries and worked in the retail shops and waited tables and washed dishes in the restaurants and drove the cabs and vans from the airport to the quarter aren't losers. How would all the "successes" enjoy life if it weren't for those hardworking Americans?

[txaslftist]

7. All of that hullabaloo about the "welfare" state in NO really ...

... pissed me off. At least 60% of the displaced from NO had jobs! They weren't even on welfare. That gross mischaracterization about a large group of people, IMO was solely based on the color of their skin.

New Orleans is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Thanks, Bosshog, for bringing that example up!

[jus_the_facts]

11. Indeed...another paradox in life....the NEED for poor people....

...to continue the creation of and support for the haves and have mores...a vicious never-ending cycle of insanity that hinders any TRUE progress for the world.

[Skidmore]

13. Beyond that, Boss, it is disturbing that the definition of

"success" now appears to have been revised to mean "striking it rich." What happened to the concept that success simply meant doing the best you can and that economic success was perhaps doing better than you parents did? My parents never owned a home of their own and I do (still have 20 yrs left on the mortgage and I may die before paying it off). I worked my way through a graduate degree, too. My father had an 8th grade education and my mother was a high school graduate. At the time of my mother's death 10 years ago, she was making less than $7/hr after working in the same place for 20 yrs. I make at least double that. Now we are not rich in money or investments, but I consider myself a success. I did better. My children are doing well. My biggest investment was sweat. Hard work at sometimes more than one job, especially when I was single parenting.

I think we need to redefine success. When the corporations set about creating the "investor class" by converting pension plans to stock purchasing plan, the definition of success changed.

[BronxBoy]

62. I agree

and depending where you are on the social spectrum, that definition can have devasting consequences. One of the things that absolutely turned me off about rap was that certain elements of it had this bling-bling, success is drinking kristal, while getting all the material things you can, methods be damned. I realize that all of rap wasn't like that and it's changing but that element was there. As Black folk, the last thing we need to be doing is measuring success by how many things we can acquire.

But you're right, the ideal of success has been corrupted. And not only that it seems that work, real work has been devalued in this country. Rush Limbaugh can prattle on he wants about initiative and hard work all he wants. What fucking value does he really bring to the world? All he does is sit on his fat ass all day spouting off his mouth. If his fat ass od'd tomorrow, it would have zero consequences for most of this country. Let him go work a 12 hour shift as a hosptial orderly and then let me hear him talk about work and personal responsibility.

edited for spelling

[devilgrrl]

4. Great post...

How about the attitude "life is what you make it?" That statement seems to fit perfectly in Republican double-speak.

[zanne]

5. I've been seeing that quite a bit here lately...

For, say, the past six months or so, I've noticed alot of people posting on DU who have right-wing attitudes. When they're called on it, they say that they have a right to speak their minds. I always thought DU was a political forum for Liberals. I've always thought of it as a place to "go to" to get away from all the cavemen out there and have discussions with like-minded people. Lately, I see this changing (especially with the "you can't call a freeper a freeper" rule). Does anyone else notice this, or is it just me?

[raccoon]

28. I've noticed that too. I think some of them--who knows how many

--are infiltrating freepers.

Infiltrate & undermine! that's what they're trying to do.

[BlueIris]

46. Not just you.

I keep writing the mods and administrators and reminding them what the forum posting rules say about how posters need to be of a generally Progressive mindset. Tolerance and compassion for those who can't achieve as much as some in the "ownership society" claim they want everyone to is, to me, one of the most important facets of Progressivism. Not ripping mods, just once again expressing how much I'd like to see some better-defined parameters for what constitutes "Progressivism" around here--some attitudes definitely don't belong in this sand-box and "screw/insult the poor" is one of them.

[Hello_Kitty]

60. I totally notice it.

There are some really bad freeper trolls on this board with really high post counts. They often have a single-minded focus on something and can always be found posting thier "contrarian" or "libertarian" views whenever there is a thread on their pet topic. Some of them are very slick about it. They know exactly how to post things that are inflammatory enough to spin people up but not so much as to get them banned.

And sometimes I've called them out on it and my posts were deleted. But they got the point and tried to take it out on me.

[AspenRose]

67. It has gotten worse since Katrina.

eom

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. There's success and there's success

The person who said that the investor was a success and the working person was a failure appears to gauge success merely upon who amounts the most wealth. However, if that same person was stuck in the middle of nowhere with a car that mysteriously refuses to start, I think his concepts of what success and failure is might change-that mechanic who comes to his aid might not have a dime invested in the stock market, but if his skills get that car going, suddenly his value is worth a lot more than pieces of paper.

[tk2kewl]

8. As Will Pitt would say...

you buried that one in the center black


that way of thinking makes losers out of everyone who does that labor for the people with capital.

it excuses union busting, because those doing the labor are the losers, while the stock holders are the winners. it is the right of the stock holders to take all that they can, after all they are the winners and that is the name of the game.

if taken to its ultimate conclusion it excuses slavery. if i can force some one to work for nothing then i have certainly done a good job of managing my capital.



on edit... just borrowing the dart board metaphor from Will, not saying he agrees with my post

[Bloodblister Bob]

10. The Problem is Power

I am certainly against the political cronyism that fosters corporate welfare and no-bid government contracts, but such corruption is not unique to Republican administrations.

As I see it, the problem is not Uncaring Republican vs Salt-of-the Earth Democrat. the problem is the expansion of State power, which, once established, will be subject to abuse by whoever is in power.

[annabanana]

14. "state power"?

how about "Corporate Power" - that amoral, transnational thing?

[Bloodblister Bob]

22. Corporations have political power...

...because of their unsavory alliances with the State (i.e. greedy politicians). Such alliances should be abolished, and corporations made to respond solely to the desires of the marketplace.

[Norquist Nemesis]

36. But also because of their standing in the courts

as a person or entity. The courts that ruled they have this standing allow them to make the alliances with the State. And I agree, they should be abolished.

[displacedtexan]

15. I carpooled with a guy who "tallied" his day on the drive home.

Each day of his life was divided into "wins" and "losses."

How sad. I'll never forget that guy: he was one of the most miserable people I've ever met.

If he found a good parking place, it was a "win."

If his lunch order was wrong, it was a "loss."

The same went for his political beliefs: if the rightwing rag published something negative about his repuke candidate, it was a "loss."

Ick. At what point do you commit suicide if your "loss" list beats your "win" list for an extended period?

But I know where you're coming from with your post. People with that attitude consider their silver (or silver plate) spoons as their own making, not as an accident of birth.

[tk2kewl]

18. that guy sounds like some kind of Seinfeld character or something

I think I would have enjoyed observing him

[Patiod]

34. A woman considered successful b/c she's rich

My friend was describing how well her friend Marcia had done in the real estate market (she was with a venture capital firm that got bought, and she got a nice little nut that she invested in RE).

So someone says "is she happy?" And my friend says "I don't think she's happily married, but she's doing really well."

How can you be "doing really well" if your marriage sucks? I don't get these values.

[LetsGoMurphys]

48. that's a depressing story n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

17. The reply was along the lines of, "I can see a difference, all right. One

is a success and the other is a failure."

Sounds like my piece of shit brother in-law

hey brian you fucker

get your sorry ass over to FR you greed obsessed POS.

[bleedingheart]

19. The biggest difference is the lack of empathy and compassion

and the person who can't see the difference can not empathize.

I know people who are born into wealthy familes and who do not realize how very lucky they are that they have been able to start up the ladder of life many rungs higher than other people.

[Mist]

20. I've always despised how some people think

sitting on your butt making phone calls all day, with a break for a "business lunch," is the same as manual labor.

[BronxBoy]

63. I don't know about making phone calls....

but there are a hell of a lot of people who toil in call centers throughout this country who work really hard in sometimes very oppressive atomspheres. Imagine being in a job where everything you do was monitored all the time. It can be very stressful.

Manual labor is tough but hard work is hard work. My wife has doen call center work for 20 years. I'd rather dig ditches than do what she does.

[Mist]

69. Good point--hadn't thought of the "boiler rooms" --I was thinking

of businessmen and executives who have their own offices, and a secretary to handle the unwanted phone calls. Different from the stressful phone work. I've done fund-raising over the phone, and it can be stressful!

[izzybeans]

21. an ideological legitimation for naked exploitation is what i call it...

But I like your wording, its more soundbitey.

[raccoon]

23. Thanks for bringing this up, txaslftist.

The reply was along the lines of, "I can see a difference, all right. One is a success and the other is a failure."

That reply was judgmental, critical, insensitive, and cruel.

I'm sick and tired of hearing the word "loser" applied to people. Maybe the person isn't a financial success because of poor choices. Maybe it's because of physical/mental disability. Maybe just because of bad luck.

The winners are to be rewarded, the losers are to be dismissed out of hand with a 'better luck next time, sucker.'

I'm so tired of this moranic (sic) thinking.

This relates to the one-upmanship and insecurity I posted about earlier today in DU.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5081116

[Singular73]

26. You are missing the point.

Republicans don't just see everyone as winners and losers, on the economic front.

They NEED the losers to feel better about themselves...to make them believe they are "better" than other people.

Thats the whole key to understanding them. They want others to fail.

[unpossibles]

55. they need us losers in many more ways than they know

screw them. I make it a point to always try to be genuinely nice to people in service industry, being a 12+ year veteran of it myself, who (thank you, Dubya!) may have to go back to it now.

Generally, people are very nice about it if you treat them like humans. "Service" does not equal "servant". Forget that too many times and you will not want to know what some people may do behind your back (or in your food, your hotel room, to your car, etc). Not saying I condone that, but... I have seen it happen.

[CrispyQ]

68. lol

:rofl:

I'm always surprised that anyone would be rude to someone who has your food outside your line of sight for a length of time!

Like you, I was in the service industry for 10 years. I am always polite & nice to clerks, waiters, etc. Why wouldn't you be? What purpose does it serve to be rude & nasty to anyone, especially based on something as shallow as what a person does for a living? Arghhh!!!

[xchrom]

27. the investor class is not the working class.

the investor class does not work for the money made from investments -- in fact the workers do.

whether it's here in america or in china -- the workers are the ones who sweat -- making nike or caterpillar profitable and allowing the investor reap the benefits.

no one has successfully explained to me how this is not a false economy -- there are holes at the bottom of it that always look like the great deppression. and no matter how many small investors there are -- it's mostly another way to keep x number of people out of the game and to keep y number of poor.

my exception to this scenario are industries that remain privately owned but do exceedingly well by their workers -- and yes they do exist.

at the end of the day -- it's the game publicly traded money that's at the root of the problem for politics in the west{i.e. germany, england, spain, america, etc.}

that money and the people who are benefitting the most from it NEED to express greater power in order to protect themselves and in the case of america, mine the government for tax dollars.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

29. i love you

[txaslftist]

52. Gwarsh... I hardly know you...

:blush:

[Marr]

30. That's actually an anti-union PR meme thought up by Madison Ave.

It's been around since the 30's and it's part of what's called the Mohawk Valley formula. The idea is to present a picture of capital being no different from labor; to say 'we're all in this together and the unions are disrupting our harmony'.

It's stuck around because it's been incredibly effective in undermining labor movements.

http://zpedia.org/Propaganda_and_Control_of_the_Public_Mind

[quiet.american]

32. And along with all that's been said, there's the utter hypocrisy

There's the Young College Republicans bleeding the elderly, retired, working Republicans dry by scamming them with fundraising pleas claiming the organization doesn't have two nickels to rub together, and what do these retired, working-class folk do? Dip far down into their fixed income to send a bunch of brats practically their last dime.

But's that's okay with Bush's Republicans.

Then, there's the constant crowing about how Bush's Republicans are the party of "moral values" -- well, Jesus was a working-class carpenter before he became a preacher, and then technically, he didn't even have a job, did he? Do they dismiss their own "savior" as a loser?

[LetsGoMurphys]

49. I think for the most part the religious right and these corporatisits

are seperated somewhere. Alot of religous right people are not very well off at all. They are suckered into thinking that the republicans are looking out for them any really want to overturn Roe v. Wade (which I do not believe to be the case). This way the corporatists get the votes as well as money they need because they would not get elected on their economic policies alone. Now their are exceptions of course such as Senator Frist and his ilk. But who knows they might just be faking this religious right thing for the votes as well.

[Land Shark]

35. not everybody is greedy and using money to keep score, but

that doesn't mean that they don't want fairness, and desire to be screwed.

I'm not talking about Reagan's comment that homeless want to be homeless. I'm talking about modesty in acquisitiveness, not trying to make a killing being a reason for remaining un-rich.

It's true, some things $$ are the one and only way to keep score, and they really want to play.

[BlueIris]

38. "One is a success and the other is a failure."

I can't call that an example of a "Republican attitude," since to me, the attitude of your average slimy, ignorant, bigoted, inhuman asshole who still votes Republican is defined by other repulsive beliefs, but seriously? The asshole who posted that needs to find a different message board to spew his disgusting judgmental spiel at. Holy shit. To post that you think someone is a failure soley because they do not make enough money to cover monthly expenses? To imply that "failures" are less deserving of democracy or a fair society? What is that sorry excuse for a human being doing posting on DU? God. I totally missed that post in your thread when it was up. It disgusts me.

[Beetwasher]

40. Whoever Said That Is An Idiot

Most rich people inherit their money and don't work an honest day in their lives. Not all, but most.

These trust fund morons may think they are working (and I've known a few) as they play around with this or that venture, but most of them are lazy, silver spoon fed idiots with no sense of work ethic or responsibility. I've known these gasbags; they'll buy a restaurant or a bar and do nothing because they have no clue how to really run a business. It eventually fails because they are so stupid and irresponsible that they don't realize everyone is stealing from them (among other things) while they're out playing golf all the time instead keeping an eye on things.

I know this one moron (friend of a friend) who "runs" a "wine distributing business", he doesn't have the first clue, he just likes travelling to France to buy wine and claims it's his business. All he does is play golf, that is when he's not travelling to France. I don't think I've ever heard him talk about ever making a single deal to distribute any wine to anyone. He's also one of the stupidest people I've ever met, a completely clueless moron. And yeah, he thinks he's entitled to it all and would be the first idiot in a room to slam poor people as lazy.

[BronxBoy]

64. And GWB...

is the perfect poster boy for these folks. Never really worked a day in his life and when he did try to be 'CAPITAL", he had his ass handed to him every single time.

But yet he can get on national TV and have the nerve to talk about an "Ownership" society.

edited for spelling

[Horse with no Name]

41. It just makes it easier for some to characterize and classify people

but in reality they are the working poor.
Had a conversation at the grocery store the other day with a very nice black lady.
We were standing in line and she was, as I was, purchasing as much as we could with very little.
She glanced at another black lady that was checking out--stated that she knew that woman. Said that she had 5 kids and didn't work, but milked the system for all it is worth.
She then went on to say that she worked at Kimberly Clark. She worked long hours to support her 2 kids. She said she barely makes it with the high cost of gas and electric. She went to the food stamp office to see if she could get some help, and they told her that she made too much money.
How can someone make too much money if they can't afford to feed their kids? In my opinion, these are the people that need and deserve the resources of our government but do not get them.
However, something that I didn't point out to this woman because really there wasn't any time--but also did not want to offend--was that the woman with 5 kids may have been in her shoes at one time...working and unable to feed her children, and just did the best she could.

[tlsmith1963]

43. "Average" People Work Harder, Anyway

What do those rich CEOs do? Sit on their behinds all day at a desk & do almost nothing. It's the workers who do all the tough stuff. It's the workers who make companies into successes. They deserve a lot more respect (& money) than they are getting. This country is looking at things in the wrong way. We respect people who don't do much & trash people who work hard. It's just wrong.

Tammy

[phiddle]

45. Leaving aside the issues of who works harder, is luckier, etc.,

could we as Democrats agree that at least equal tax rates should apply to income from labor and that from financial instruments (cap gains, dividends, etc.)?
Now the capital gains tax rate is far below that of the income tax on wages, and reportedly the Bush Tax Reform Commission wishes to eliminate the capital gains tax altogether.
The Republican Coalition: Financiers + Fundies + Idiots

[LetsGoMurphys]

47. great post I've been saying this same thing for as long as I

can remember. The democratic agenda has changed throughout it's history,which is only natural. However this is one issue that has been the core of our belief system from the beginning. Let us never forget that.

[Czolgosz]

50. You are 100% correct. But we need to make peace with that Republican idea

Here's what I'm thinking:

While I agree with everything you posted, and my agreement is complete and without reservation, I don't want a party so narrow that it excludes people who have an economic worldview that I find repugnant. If those people are drawn to the Democratic Party because of some non-economic issue (racial equality, gay rights, gender equality, lack of corruption, religious tolerance, environmental concern, whatever . . .), I don't want to shoo them from the tent because I cannot share some of their beliefs. If they want to vote with us, I say "welcome aboard!" even if I cannot have a conversation about economic policy without turning red in the face.

I think the Democratic Party's lack of success recently can be attributed in some significant part to the fact that the disparate Republican coalitions hold their nose and stick together whereas we are not doing as good a job at getting each other's back. Let's work together were we can and let's work separately where we must, but let's work toward a major change in Washington for 2006.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

51. Those who subscribe to the winners vs losers theory don't realize

that their success would be sorely limited if not for the people who mop the floors, scrub the toilets, cart their trash to the dump and check groceries for them.

Somehow these wealthy folks have gotten the impression that others hate them for their success. In reality, it's the ingratitude of the rich that makes them so despised.

[panhead1961]

53. Republican Attitude

I work with at least an 85% republican workforce. I have been mostly keeping my mouth shut as of late because with all the news proving over and over what liars and thieves those in charge are there's no point in arguing. Even there own seem to be turning EXCEPT for the same "the economy is better because of the tax cuts" and "there are more jobs now than ever" crap. I had to go for a walk I was so pissed off. It wasn't because of the subject as much as it was because of the attitude. Laughing and being dismissed as not worth their time to argue with a liberal did it. That bastard hasn't had to work a hard days life in 20 years and is going to take early retirement selling his house which he owns which has gone through the roof in price to the point where he couldn't even afford to buy his own house. He has no idea what is going on. We are supporting our grand kids because their parents don't make enough money to afford the day care for two kids. 800.00 per month for a new born and 400.00 for a 5 year old. Bush canceled all help for daycare and sent the money to churches for "Marry the daddy of your baby" and abstinence. Well I want to teach the republicans how to properly fuck themselves. No lube, extra sand, no warning....I HATE THEM

[txaslftist]

54. Sounds like guys I used to work with...

... I used to get up after midnight to throw a newspaper, and it was basically midnight to 4 am every night, weather? Shit, we delivered the damn paper when the mailman wouldn't go outside. That was on top of my regular job.

I worked my ass off, could barely make ends meet. You know there really are seven different flavors of Hamburger helper, and they all taste like crap if you can't afford meat. And no, generic baby food is NOT as good, and neither are generic diapers.

Anyway, yeah. You'd meet people who were just barely scraping by, but so long as gays can't get married or teenagers can't get abortions, they were fine. I'd see a guy one day, telling me about the bankruptcy he wanted me to help him with; the next day telling me how great the economy was going with Republicans running it!

The irony killed me!

Anyway, once my dayjob turned into something I could support a family on, I swore I would never forget what it meant to struggle and really bust ass for a living. I remember being able to close my eyes standing up and fall asleep, I was that tired all the time.

For some silver spoon prick to compare himself to me and call me a loser...

I got some whupass for that guy.

[undergroundpanther]

57. I hate the opulent

Damn right they'd better fear the people they use and exploit,Hate to the fucking priveleged thieves of life,liberty,happiness,sharing and joy and peace!!

[flygal]

59. I live in Germany

and people are shocked when I tell them there is basically no help with daycare. They get 150 Euro kinder geld per child per month, kindergarten is so inexpensive. For five days, five hours per day it cost me about 100 Euro incl. a hot lunch. And it's not day care - it's organized play environment. My kids LOVE it!!

Sorry you have to work in that environment. I have to visit the freeper-in-laws this Christmas and I'm running out of patience. At least I outlawed faux news in my presence.

[ErisFiveFingers]

58. Is a man or woman...

Who bruises their fingers all day long worth the same as someone who just talks and thinks?

Is a lawyer, stockbroker, teacher, doctor, worth less, or the same?

Is there something beyond "labor hour"? Maybe talent? Maybe experience? Maybe training? Maybe knowledge?

Edit: spelling, developing a point.

[BronxBoy]

61. I read your post....

I knew exactly what you were talking about and felt it deeply.

But then the thread descended into a long debate on the merits of capital vs labor. At one point, I felt like I back in college sitting in an economics class.

I know what you're talking about though. I daresay that most of the people who come to DU work as bone wearingly hard as you described in your first post. This winter a lot of people are going to suffer because they won't be able to afford their heating bills. And contrary to all the bullshit that I am sure Conservative will trot out, it won't be because they are never do wells, too lazy to take care of themselves.
They will mostly be people who work as hard as they can but just can't stretch their money or their time any further.

You're right, the Democrats better not forget these folks.

[SeanQ]

65. Bravo!!! Very well said!

BTW, that republican attitude does NOT equate with fiscal responsibility. And here is where we Democrats have a real opportunity, IMHO. The current administrations staggering deficit spending clearly demonstrates that the attitude the OP outlines, which is fundamental in many ways to neocon thinking, is devastating in the long run to our economy and national well-being! People with that attitude are NOT fiscally responsible (conservative), because their #1 priority is amassing more wealth and rewarding themselves and their friends - because that is what is right and successful to their minds.

As a party we had begun to show that we can be fiscally responsible. That you do not need to be conservative (fiscally or otherwise) to understand that government needs to spend money wisely. We need to take care of all members of our society and foster growth, but do it using the funds available. The more growth, the more funds become available, the more needs that can be met. Republicans are the party of big government, overspending (and on the wrong things) and stuffing themselves on pork (although some Dem's are far to engaged in feeding at the pork troth as well for my liking, even if not quite so gratuitously), and they only seem to get worse the more control over spending they have. They broke their contract. I'd think it would be simple by now to make this point, and make fiscal responsibility and planning toward a surplus a plain spoken part of the party's core platform.

(edited to add content)

[CrispyQ]

66. One of my favorite scenes in Erin Brockovich was

when the power company came back with their first pitiful offer & she said, "These may not be the most sophisticated people in the world, but they know how to divide."

We have come to value money & things over people. Therefore, people with lots of money & things are valued more than people without. Years ago they said labor was the backbone of capitalism. Now they say that new markets are.

I have an article that I printed out & can't find online right now, but it starts out by stating, "If you work in George Bush's America you're a sap." It then goes on to explain how our country doesn't value income made by labor, only income made by investments & inheritance & how our tax policies are putting the burden on the middle & lower classes.

Yesterday there was a post referring to something on DemocracyNow where someone stated, "If you're flying first class & the plane is going down, you're still going with it." I think this is a key point that rich people simply do not get -- when this country goes down, they will go down with it. They may not be on the front wave, but they will go down too.

This attitude that rich people are better than & more deserving than poor people is going to bite them on the ass big time. When labor gets cold & hungry & tired of being kicked around by the corporate whores, even the gates protecting their McMansion communities will not keep them safe.