We can change the direction this country is going

[magicoflife]

by not voting democrat or republican. Besides the obvious what is the difference between bush and kerry in regards to the issues that are most important to us?

Neither had plans to bring our troops home. (In fact Kerry was reporting to duty!)
Neither was going to stop outsourcing of our jobs.
Both are controlled by big corporations.
Health care was still going to be an issue under Kerry. I heard of no plans from him to have national health care.
I don't care who is on the SC no one will ever reverse roe vs wade.
You can't go against the will of the people, at least that is my belief.

Dean was going to pull our troops out of Iraq immediately, he was going to reverse the tax cuts and use that money to ensure all had health care. The guy made one scream and we all got scared thinking he couldn't win against Bush and down the tubes he goes.

If an independent for 2008 came out and said, I am pulling the troops out of Iraq as soon as I am elected. I will stop the outsourcing of jobs. Health care for all Americans. These are things that effect all republicans and democrats, why wouldn't we vote for him or her?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[magicoflife]

2. you shouldn't be suspicious of someone

with new or different ideas. Try and embrace or understand them

[Maddy McCall]

4. Your idea isn't new or different.

Advocating third party voting is advocating defeat for Dems.

[William769]

9. I'm with you

I am & always will be a yellow dawg Democrat.

[FloridaPat]

14. Not me. I vote AGAINST repubs at any opportunity. So far that has

left me voting for Democrats.

Maybe it's time the people for the US stat running the country for the country instead of relying on congress people who working for corporations. That means all of us. Doing something local and building up from there. Most government anymore is not working.

[Atman]

3. No offense, but your post smacks of incredible naivete!

First of all, the vote, or more accurately who was selected president, was not our choice. Forget the notion that anyone's "vote" would have made the slightest bit of difference. Deibold, ES&S and Sequoia delivered the vote for BushCo, as per their contract.

And what happens if the SCOTUS goes against the will of the people? Exactly what happens? Please explain. Do we perform another march which is ignored? Do we stand blocks away from the courthouse and scream loudly? These people are in for life. The people that are installing the right-wingers don't give a rat's ass what the people think. The people in charge think we're just dumb fucks who are wrong. God says no abortions, and 70-80% of Americans just don't understand that.

Dean's scream? It wasn't Dean's scream that caused him to lose the vote. The "Dean Scream" incident was concocted by the media in concert with Rove, precisely BECAUSE he was clearly winning. Dean would have won, and would not have gracefully stepped aside for the fraud like Bush's Skull & Bones "chosen" opponent. So Dean was "taken out."

If an independent came out in 2008 and said all the things you want him to say, then BushCo will find or manufacture a skeleton in his closet akin to the Dean Scream, and Deibold, ES&S and Sequoia will do the rest.

[Balbus]

8. Pot meet kettle - eom

[Atman]

10. Your "pot meets kettle" doesn't fit.

Would care to explain what is naive about my post? You can call it lots of things, but it simply doesn't fit the definition of naivete. But I'm willing to give you a shot at it!

[Balbus]

11. Tell me what's naive about his post...

and I'm willing to bet you'll find what's naive about your post.

[Atman]

12. Uh...what?

I told you what was naive about his post!

That was the entire subject of MY post. That is what you responded to, remember?

[magicoflife]

16. I believe it was my post you were calling naive

[Atman]

18. Well, yes. Yes I was.

And to your credit, you responded in a pretty reasonable fashion.

(BTW -- welcome to DU!)

After I said your post was naive, Balbus replied to my post by saying simply "Pot meet kettle." IOW, that it was MY post which was naive. Which, as I stated, by definition it really wasn't. It could have been called any number of things; it might have been called a tin-foil-hat theory, it might have been called paranoid...he could have called it many things, but Balbus's "pot meet kettle" response was a non sequitur.

His follow-up was even more confusing, as he then asked me to tell him what was naive about your post, when I had already done that, and that is what he had responded to with his "pot meet kettle" comment.

Someone isn't following along, and I don't think it is either you or me!

[magicoflife]

13. If the SCOTUS goes against the will of the people

then abortion would be left up to the states to decide. You would then argue that some states would abolish abortion and you would be right. That is difficult to argue if not impossible.

I was not trying to be naive, but I do have faith in Americans. We can make a difference and the past has shown that. I almost want to say it is time to take to the streets and take back the country I once new, but I am afraid of having a knock on my door.

I understand the "Dean Scream" incident was concocted by the media, but why do we allow them to control us. We are suppose to be free thinkers. What if people like Will Pitt came out in large numbers and start writing for the major news papers. What about political talk shows featuring (and I hate to keep using his name, especially where we live so close to each other) the William Pitts of the world.

Just a thought and probably a waste of my energy.

Yes I would vote Hillary, but she is for the war, her husband signed off on NAFTA. I mean really how much would change

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Well it is PAST TIME To take to the steets

will yuo join us November 2nd?

And by the way if you are afraid for a knock on your door, learn to live free every day... for any day you can expect that knock... (it is called the unpatriot act... am sure you have heard of it)

Oh and for will to start writing for the NYT we first need to break up the media... they own it, that is why they control the gates... that is why the Internets are such a threat to them...

As to your faith in the Ameican people been on the front lines for five long years, there are days I no longer have it... after all American Idol and Survivor and CSI are oh so much more important

[magicoflife]

22. I will gladly join you November 2nd

as for the patriot act or un patriot act, which I have heard of briefly :-) . I fear mostly for the young people as they tend to speak their minds much more boldly then us tired old timers.

[jarnocan]

5. I wish, but meanwhile...

we have to do everything we can to get the truth out about election fraud (even an independent won't stand a chance if we don't-just make it easier to flip votes more discreetly) and so many other LIES and treasonous acts. We also should work on supporting genuinely progresive democrats -whom I hard have endorse this www.worldcantwait.org YEA! Take action on NOv. 2nd Please and keep it UP!

Unfortunately if we have 2 or several decent candidates running and 1 far right extremist hateful lying maniac, chnaces are.... not good.
I think an election involving several parties, should require a run off, if it is at all close.IMHO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. ESS Diebold and Sequoia get far more votes than you

or I do....

Study the issues, then come back

[jarnocan]

19. Agree

That is why I think we NEED to Take action Nov. 2nd as well as doing everything else we have been working on. Verified Voting HR 550 etc.
We need to keep insisting on more of the truth coming out- the media is beginning to be more willing to recognize reality. We have to keep pushing them.
I just wrote the Progressive Dems because I noticed they are not listing an event of any kind on NOV 2nd.
"I thought I heard that Progrssive Dems had endorsed this day of Action. Cundy Sheehan has also I believe. I think you should list some event. You may not want to call for a strike, but how about something to commemorate the election fraud; a day of action- a petition, a phone drive SOMETHING! We can't just put all our hopes on the indicments.

http://www.millionphonemarch.com/impeach.htm - this is a great petition and resource. http://www.actnow.org/?pcode=aflcio99 concerns the budget cuts and tax breaks. You put your personalized protest sign on the map, and send a letter/petition at the same time. the interactive map is cool, might get more folks to sign.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Oh trust me, Nov 2nd I am taknig the day off...

[bridgit]

7. agreed, after we kick these shit-head republicans out...

and put dems in for a time or two; we'll make the whole place GREEN :patriot: :kick:

[ourbluenation]

15. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Bad idea....gives elections to rethuglicans.

Please think twice about the practicality of this option. I understand your frustration but now is not the time.

[progressivejazz]

17. I tried that. Many of us did.

I voted for Nader in '00 in the safe state of Texas.

A couple of my friends did the same in the safe state of Connecticut.

Our votes didn't change anything, but I can promise you we've learned not to make an election the place to try to reform the Democratic party.

Let's get the Democrats in power, then reform them. The country and the world will suffer less.

[sandyd921]

23. Seems to me that reforming the Democrats

and working from within the party to move the party in a more progressive direction is the best hope we have right now. Third parties or independent candidates don't have much of a shot the way our system is currently constituted.

At the same time we absolutely must focus on reforming our election process and making certain that the the repubs (or the Democrats for that matter) can't fix or corrupt the system. BTW one type of election reform, instant runoff voting (IRV), could allow for greater candidate choice by voters and is being used by a few cities in the US (San Francisco and Burlington Vermont) and by the nation of Ireland.

Here are some links for IRV:
http://www.fairvote.org/?page=178
http://www.instantrunoff.com/

Am I as frustrated as anyone else at DU? You bet your bottom dollar I am! :argh:
I'm just not ready or willing to buy into the defeatist way of thinking. Like the title of Margaret Cho's new book: "I have chosen to stay and fight!"

[rasputin1952]

24. Locking

We are DEMOCRATIC Underground, not Inedpendent Underground, Green Underground or Anarchist Underground.

Thank you for your understanding.