None of the perjury nonsense. It's simple. The word is Treason.

[shance]

No other word describes the betrayal, the deceit, the lies, the needless deaths, the taking of our media as hostage, the consistent, premeditated illegal actions and lies that pressured American citizens into a war WHICH WE DID NOT WANT, the illegal and illegitimate three election cycles and the counting of our votes by private Republican companies, the intentional neglect and/or homicide of innocent residents of New Orleans.

It has been a snowball that has created avalanche proportions.

It's called TREASON. It began with the election of 2000 and proceeded to expand in scope from that point on.

[don954]

1. Treason is the reason for the fitzmas season!

I know, bad, but i couldnt resist!

[Independent_Liberal]

7. No problem bud.

I actually felt like saying the same thing myself.

:)

[spooked911]

2. damn straight!

[pretzel4gore]

3. didya see franken on letterman? treason!

go to 'crooks and liars' for the vid...it's fantastic, worth it even on a slow download. Franken was explaining the plame case to dave when he mentioned bush sr's saying that anyone who exposed an active agent was guilty of treason, therefore both rove and libby will be executed! lol! al says he opposes the death penalty normally, but!...we joke about it here, but to see that on national tv, it truly was inspiring (the crowd cheered, dave was amused and the good nature fun didn't hide the incredible rage that underlines the plame case; that it really was treason!)
btw, they further discussed executing prez bush himself!
you just gotta see it

[shance]

4. No I didn't. Thank you*

n/t

[Gregorian]

25. Now THAT would be payback!!!

Thanks for that reminder. I forgot Bush's dad said that. PRICELESS.

We could all chuckle the same way he did for Carla Faye Tucker.

[OneBlueSky]

5. treason, and crimes against humanity . . . n/t

.

[shance]

6. Yes.

n/t

[shance]

8. Kay Bailey technicality KICK***

n/t

[porphyrian]

9. I've been saying it all along...

They are a bunch of fucking traitors, and now they're going down.

[shance]

11. Whats more disturbing is they have betrayed their country

but its no big shake to them or to people like Kay Bailey Hutchison.

I wonder if this is what happened to many of the German Nazis? Ordinarily not bad people, just bought into the delusion, racism and greed and became not good people?

[porphyrian]

14. I think that's exactly what happened.

Propaganda works because people have certain subconscious and/or instictual behaviors that most are unaware of. One of the biggest problems is that we are herd animals. As such, most of us are followers. One of the things follwers respond to is confidence. Now, someone doesn't have to have any good or honest qualities at all to be confident, thus convincing some portion of the populace that they are a good leader. What's funny is a study I recall (sorry, I don't have a link at the moment) on incompetence showed that most incompetent people believe that they actually are competent. Thus, a confident yet incompetent person can influence a number of people (perhaps explaining why bush has any approval whatsoever at the moment).

[shance]

23. Terrific points.

The herd analogy is very important and insightful. The fact that we, like other herd animals "respond to confidence", even if it is real confidence or manufactured is spot on.

What is equally interesting however, is I believe we instinctively know when we are being "had" and when someone is the real thing. The question is if we are willing and open to accepting that awareness.

[porphyrian]

26. The Instinctual B-S Detector

This is a good point as well. Is it that our instinct to detect our being "had" is not as strong as our instinct to follow confidence, or is it that we have been trained to ignore that instinct? Law enforcement agencies and "The Mob" are rather familiar with the subconscious "tells" we exhibit when we are lying, although most people are not consciously aware of these. Do we have an instinct that is attuned to these cues, or do they have to be learned? Also, assuming it is an instinct, can it be fooled by someone who is actually incompetent, but has a great deal of confidence?

[shance]

31. You and I could close the bar down on this topic :)

Great points. Interesting topic to say the least.

I think there's alot to be said on conditioning and taming of our biological core instincts.

[Walt Starr]

10. Treason is a well defined term

It is the only crime defined in the Constitution, too.

It's damned tough to prove.

I believe, depneding up what Fitzgerald has in the way of evidence, that it is a possibility here, albeit a remote one.

The reason it gets thrown around as rhetoric so much is because it's tough to prove. there have been fewer than 40 federal cases of treason brought in U.S. history.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. I would also point out...

...that I'm not aware of any successful treason prosecutions in which the defendant wasn't explicitly working for the enemy. I'm aware of one or two in which treason charges were dropped because the actions didn't meet that criteria. As far as I've been able to tell, there's no precedent for a treason charge in this case.

Wikipedia has added fuel to this fire because their list of "convicted traitors" in the US lists people like Timothy McVeigh, who was convicted of murder, not treason, and other cases where treason was not the charge, was dropped, or the conviction was for espionage and not treason. I'd happily go and fix the article myself, but I don't have time to review the 60 odd cases they've got in there, and I don't want to do a half-assed job.

[Enraged_Ape]

12. Treason, technically, is "giving aid and comfort to the enemy"

We are at war (or so I've been told for the last four years). Whoever leaked Plame's (and by extension, Brewster-Jenning's) identity hobbled our ability to track secret WMD transfers around the world, thus crippling us in the war against terror. This gave aid and/or comfort to terrorists who would use WMDs against us in our war against them.

That, my friends, is TREASON, no matter how you look at it. And it is a capital crime. I am saddened that all those who participated in this crime will have to face execution--whether it be Rove, Libby, Cheney, or even Bush were he involved. But like Sammy Davis, Jr., sang, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

15. Technically, it is:

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

So doing something that happens to aid the enemies of the US isn't sufficient. You essentially must be in league with the enemy. This is reflected in the prosecutions under the treason statute that have occured before. There are several instances with striking similarities to the current situation in which treason charges were either not brought or dropped because the actions of the accused didn't rise to the standard I described above.

[Enraged_Ape]

27. I disagree with you

I believe a case can be made that is much more open than you describe. BushCo's fatal mistake was saying repeatedly that we are in a state of "WAR", which naturally implies "ENEMIES". By crippling our own ability to fight our "WAR" on terror, BushCo DID "adhere" to our "ENEMIES". A good prosecutor would easily be able to argue and push this line. It's almost a slam-dunk. The Republicans would thereby be hoisted by their own petard.

And regardless of what happens, it won't look good when played out in the morning papers. Outing CIA agents involved with tracking WMDs does not play well when this country is in a "WAR" with other countries that supposedly are conspiring to use WMDs against us.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Hmm...

BushCo DID "adhere" to our "ENEMIES"

In what way, specifically? Adherence in this case essentially means devotion. Doing something that aids the enemy doesn't necessarily imply adherence. Adherence is difficult to prove, and it's the key word in that bit of text.

By the standard you're suggesting, every anti-war protester could be put in prison on trumped-up treason charges. (And I don't need to tell you how much the looney right loves this idea.)

I hardly see this as a slam-dunk case. Treason was made intentionally difficult to prove. If you can show me an instance of a treason conviction for someone who wasn't working directly with the enemy, then I'd like to know about it. Right now I don't know of any in which the person in question wasn't specifically working alongside the enemy and taking orders from the enemy.


And regardless of what happens, it won't look good when played out in the morning papers.

Oh, I agree totally. My only disagreement is that I don't think there's any way of invoking the treason statute in this case. Again, there's no legal precedent, and the statute appears to specifically exclude cases like the current one.

[BurtWorm]

13. Getting a blowjob is treason.

Destroying a counterterrorism network to get back at a critic of Bush is an honest mistake.

:eyes:

[shance]

17. Exactly. The hypocrisy has hit such a level of insanity.

And it shows how immoral and greedy these people are.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. There is no way in the world you're gonna get a treason indictment

Stop inflating your expectations.

Unless you like being disappointed.

[shance]

18. Are you the expectations officer?

Before you engage in telling others what to do and how to think, it's best to focus on your own actions first.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Well, he's right.

There's no basis for believing that there will be an indictment for treason either in the particulars of this case, or in the history of trials for treason in the US.

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. Nah, that's alright

I'll go ahead and keep telling you that your expectations are overblown and silly.

Cheers.

[Skidmore]

20. Wonder if Cafferty could be the one to introduce that word

into the lexicon of the media.

[shance]

22. Good point. I would gladly have Olbermann or Stewart do the honors.

Whatever the case, its treason.

It's been treason since they first stepped into office due to an illegitimate ruling by the Supreme Court.

[Danger Duck]

28. Other words DO apply

Bustrocity, Catastrobush, Bushwhacked, all come to mind.

[EVDebs]

29. Since Nxon's Treason in 1968, Reagan's in I980 Oct. Surprise...

as related in this post below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2176937&mesg_id=2176937

most Republican treason events usually occur in October. With Nixon sandbagging LBJ/Humphrey's peace attempts--and ultimately prolonging the war in Vietnam for 4 more years and 20K more KIA--to Reagan's baldfaced deal with Iran and hostage release a.k.a. 'October Surprise', well, you get the picture.

Shance, you say

""It's called TREASON. It began with the election of 2000 and proceeded to expand in scope from that point on""

It began well before the election in 2000, shance ! It's built into the conservatives modus operandi.

[Chi-Town Exile]

30. We're letting the fuckers frame the issues again!

We need to call it what it is ... TREASON!!

We can't stop or let those assholes frame the debate AGAIN!!!

[the_spectator]

36. Um, it's Fitzgerald who will frame the issues -

not us OR them. If he gives us perjury and obstruction and that's it, well, that's what we have to run with, just as the Repubs did during Hummergate.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. No. Treason's too abstract.

Just charge them with 1,997(?) (and counting) accessory-to-murder beefs. And then put them in prison with (and I mean, with!) other murderers.

[shance]

33. There is both a ethical and psychological point for naming the treason

For one, it's accurate.

Secondly, because the media has been an accessory and has not not called their actions for what they are which certainly are treasonous, their horrific actions have been viewed as 'stupidity' or the ever popular 'incompetence' excuse. It is in fact EVERYTHING they have enacted and purposefully neglected to enact has been with premeditated intention from the 2000 election to New Orleans Louisiana.

Treason is an understatement when we review all the events of the past five years.

[Jed Dilligan]

34. I just think

there needs to be an enemy to treat with in order for someone to be a traitor, and I don't believe there are any enemies, except for the administration and the people connected to them. They are common criminals, not turncoats, because they NEVER served us or appeared to be loyal. Cage 'em like the rats they are. Don't DIGNIFY them with Benedict Arnold's class of crime.

[shance]

35. Good points. I agree.

thanks :)

I guess one question or thought is if they perhaps turned against their own country by their actions?

I would certainly say the Supreme Court committed treason at least the five who voted to shut down the recount in 1999.