What do I get for my taxes? Nothing.

[Danger Duck]

I am so frustrated. I am single, never married, no children. I an an attorney, in house counsel for a development company, and I run a subsidiary company for them. I get no health benefits from my job, but make about sixty thousand dollars a year in salary. My student loan debt is about one hundred and thirty thousand dollars, I make payments of over eight hundred dollars a month. I have to rent, because my student loan debt is so high, I barely qualify for a mortgage(and in my area, you can buy anything for less than 200,000).

After all my bills are paid, car, food, student loans, utilities, rent, ect..., I have ,maybe three hundred dollars a month to spend on everything else. Including health insurance. I literally can't afford decent health insurance. I joined a gym instead, and figured that would hedge my bets. But a decent plan costs about two hundred dollars a month. I drive a honda, but the gas for that is about thirty dollars a week.

I'm young, and starting out, but this is killing me. Meanwhile, my step brother spent the last year living in a half way house, and collecting unemployment, while being on probation for felony drug possession and drunk driving. He also qualified for medicaid. So, for a year, free rent, free housing, and free health care. All paid for by my taxes. Meanwhile, as a working stiff, I can't afford health care, and I'm a fucking lawyer! My student loan rates suck, the private loans can't be consolidated, and prime keeps going up.
Not to rag on my step-brother, but he's lazy. He just took a year off, and enjoyed himself on the tax payers dime. Drove me nuts.
Anyway, I just wanted to rant, and point out that I would like a kick back for the twenty thousand dollars I pay in taxes a year, when it's all said and done. I didn't ask for a war, I've got to pay a toll to drive, just give me something. I'd settle for a pinata.

[annabanana]

1. Did you think your student loan isn't subsidized by taxes?..n/t

[shoelace414]

2. yes.. nothing

Free Primary education?
federally guaranteed student loan?
Fannie and Freddie Mortgage?
a road to drive on to get to work?

[Danger Duck]

4. No, no, no, and no.

Private school.
Private loans are the bulk of the debt.
I rent.
Tolls man, tolls.

[shoelace414]

8. yep, you're right.

you'd be better off if you lived on an island in the middle of the ocean, because your taxes are just given to people who have less of a work ethic than you do.

[ProfessorGAC]

17. Tolls? Be Serious

Every road is not a toll road. And highway dollars sent by the Fed to the states is used for ALL road building and maintenance, even state & county roads and city streets.

So, GETTING to the toll roads are part of why you pay taxes.

Besides the point of taxes is NEVER an expenditure. It's the membership fee for living in a large developed society.

If you can't see that, perhaps living on some mountaintop in the Andes would suit you better.
The Professor

[Danger Duck]

21. Clearly you don't live in Chicago.

I live off of 294. Every road is a toll road on the way to where I work.

[tx_dem41]

22. "EVERY" road?

Hmmmm...I doubt that. Do you live directly on a toll road?

[Danger Duck]

27. I live on Harlem.

A quarter mile from the freeway, which drops me off at my office. I hit two tolls per trip, for a cost of 1.60 per day, to travel a grand total of 24 miles.

[tx_dem41]

29. So its not "every" road.

So you were exaggerating, to put it kindly.

[Danger Duck]

34. Why don't you accuse me of lying?

You seem more intent on tearing me apart then having a discussion. How could every road me a toll road? The statement is hyperbole, as is the tone of my rant. Quit trying to "expose me" long enough to read what I'm saying, and not take a statement like "every road is a toll" so literally. OF course every toll is not a road, just the two I use to drive to work( on the highway).

[tx_dem41]

40. Look....you really set yourself up to be torn apart.

I don't think I'm doing it either. Believe me there are barracudas on this board that would really do that job quite a bit better than I.

I just find it hard to believe that an attorney can not rationalize better than you are on this thread. Personal question...are you happy with your career choice?

[Danger Duck]

42. I'm not rationalizing anything....

I'm complaining about healthcare, my step-brother, and not having any money despite having a good job.

[tx_dem41]

48. I would agree with that.

You aren't.

[Danger Duck]

57. Do you have anything to contribute

besides insults? You say I'm doing a poor job or rationalizing, I tell you I'm not rationalizing, and you agree. Super, fine, great.

[tx_dem41]

62. Rationalizing would require rational thought, no?

I'm not using it pejoratively.

Oops...you're going to think that's another insult.

You did realize what you were getting into when you entered law school while borrowing up to 120,000 dollars from a private bank? The terms of payment were laid out before you, right? Did you look at them? Did someone explain them to you?

[Danger Duck]

64. Do you have a job?

Just curious. Of course I understand, and understood, how much law school would cost me. I have no problem paying back my loans. The trade off is for a higher income. My complaint is that if you are in a certain income group, you receive no benefits from our many programs. Compared and contrasted with my step brother, I went on a rant about the subject.

As far as mistaking insults and what not, I don't understand the hostility you're directing at me.

[tx_dem41]

69. Yes, I do.

Your brother had to have a criminal record and drug/drinking habits to get these "perceived benefits" and life high on the hog. Honestly, do you somehow feel jealous towards that?

Also, your story keeps changing. In this post you say you receive "no benefits". But a few minutes ago, you tell Professor GAC that you do realize you get some benefit. Which one is it, DD?

Also, lets look at your tax liability. How do you get to 1/3 of your salary in taxes? I'm not sure if Illinois has a state income tax, so help me out.

[Danger Duck]

75. Changing my story?

What story? I'm talking about my daily life. For people like you, I clarified the differnce between universal benefits and benefits taht are selectivly given to specific individuals.

I felt that was apparent from the beginning of my post, but, alas, it wasn't. As far as my brother goes, I am very jealous of him. But only because his penis is much bigger then mine.

As far as paying one third of my salary in taxes, I'm including all taxes, from gas, sales tax, local, city, state, ect... It's probably higher, but one third seemed safe. And yeah, Illinois has a state income tax. Most States do. if you're from Texas, congrats, because I believe you don't.

Anyway, if you want to keep discussing this with me, work on the civility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. To interject

You realize your lucky ducky of a brother will have a HELL OF A TIME finding gainful employment because of that conviction? Would you like to trade his life for yours for even one day?

Let me paint for you... go down to Mickey Ds and be told no, we don't have a job... I mean Mickey Ds... then go down to I don't know Lowes or Home Depot, what was his conviction on? Oh yes drug possetion... no job for him there. Costco? forget it... getting a job when you get a conviction in your record is quite a hell of a problem.

So he will be forced, best case, to get a job here or there that may help him get some money, so he can eat, maybe.

Now lets worst case this for your brother ok... he will be forced to go back to this life of crime, because shit, he will be able to make some dough that way and escape from the situation he himself got himself into. Poor food, poor shelter and yes he qualifies for medicare, but you checked lately the quality of that care? Oh and worst case he will end up on a coroner's slab or jail... you sure you want to trade your life for that?

Now you have to work to get yourself up from paying the private loans you yourself got yourself into, what you did not qualify for grants? I know I did not, since I was not at time a US Citizen, but if you were a US Citizen, why not go and apply for them?

Also find yourself a good tax lawyer for there may be some deductions in there that you are wholly unaware off, and if health care is a priority for you... the public defender's office usually has it. You will have to work your ass off, you already do, but you will be able to get that. Or you may want to find employment somewhere else where this is part of the compensation package, you may have to get a lower salary, in exchange for that health care package.

By the way, I do feel for you... for you are well on your way to blaming others for your problems, which are common to most of our young today... it is not only you facing this... a kid we know, the son from a previous marriage for my brother in law, he works two jobs, close to 100 hours a week, and can barely make it.. did I mention his are close to minimum wage?

[Danger Duck]

104. I believe......

that he will get it removed from his record after he completes probation. I hope he does.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. If this was a first time offense it may get sealed

if that is the case, and he cleans up his act, then the system worked very well thank you... assuming he does not go back. He was a minor when he committed that offense?

Sorry for asking that private of a question, but at least in California if you get a record as an adult and get convicted of a felony... it does not go away... now as a minor the record is sealed.

Now if he cleans up his act and gets a job and all of that happy horse, then the taxes that were spent on him were worth it. Let me put it this way, keeping somebody in jail costs you and me anywhere from 50-100 \year... I'd rather have your brother make that clean start and pay his taxes after this year of "vacation." Having known some people with addictions this is not a vacation. Hell a kid we know when from a severe marijuana and alcohol problem as a teen, to a working adult... system worked with her. Hope the same happens to your brother, but this kid... that year was a true nightmare for her father, who got custody, had to work a full time job and make sure she attended her court mandated meetings and all that... he had no time to do a thing for a year, beyond work and guard teen.

Oh and let me add this, are there people out there who take advantage of the system? Absolutely... but I believe that we like to blame the poor, easy target, because they are "bums" instead of the proper targers... You and I pay the taxes we to a point pay and will pay even more because the very rich are not willing to pay their share. They should, but they have convinced folks that taxes are evil. Oh and there are some corporate giants who have not paid US Taxes in YEARS.

Watch out for george's plan is so regressive it is not even funny, for he has to help his buddies who have lots of money already... but they want more.

[Danger Duck]

111. No,

Not a minor. He has a drug problem, and was caught with a certain substance that posession alone is a felony. It was his first felony charge, and it will be taken off his record if he completes his probation. However, he has had prior arrests for drinking and driving.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Ok works different in IL, as I said if this works and he cleans up his

act and moves on with his life and becomes a productive citizen, that year of "vacation" was worth every penney of the taxpayer money, even yours... far less costly in the long run than him becoming a permanent part of the criminal justice system

[Danger Duck]

115. He doing ok,

but he's been fighting addiciton for five years, and there have been many relapses.

And I love the guy, I don't fault him for benefiting, but it blows my mind that we would put him in a half way house where he gets therapy, food, shelter, and give him unemployment checks at the same time. He didn't need the unemployment checks. He put them in the bank. It's nice for him, but it's a pretty irresonsible use of the state's money.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. No it is not

if he recovers and makes a fresh start and moves on to become a productive citizen every penny was worth it... every penny. Let me see, worst case this, 150K of aide right or 100,000 every year in jail, you do the math. This is why the state is doing what they are doing with the intervention. It is far cheaper in the long term to help your brother now, than to have to deal with him within the criminal justice system year after year, after year.

This is what you are completely missing. That money in the bank, is a nice start for him... is he a lucky ducky? No, and he is NOT living high on the hog... he is fighting demons. Hardly that is living high on the hog.

now if this does not work, your brother will become even more expensive for the state... as I said, the worst case scenario when this does not work is a coroner slab or jail.

You are angry because you perceive this as a freebie... it is not... it is an investment. The system sees it this way... either we try now and save later, or don't and will have to spend far more later... and by the way, I am serious, talk to a tax professional, a lawyer... you may have some deductions you are unaware off... and do consider another place of employment where health care is part of the package. Be aware, that package may mean a slimmer pay check... but if you have some experience you may be able to negotiate for a similar pay check as you have right now... or even slightly higher. That health care package, if good, you are talking of anywhere between 5-10K value added.

[Danger Duck]

134. If the state reallly cared about money

They would de-criminalize drugs. And he should not be collecting unemployment while he's in a situation where he cannot work, nor needs to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. It is not up to law enforcement to decide what laws to

enforce and what not to enforce... but if you believe (I do for other reasons) that we need to decriminalize drugs, agitate for it, organize... get the LEGISLATURE to change the laws.

And yes the state does care for money.

Son, you sound frustrated and angry because your brother is getting a hell of a deal (he is not), and you are not... your frustration is common and yes there are some who abuse the system ANY system... but overall investing this money on your brother, if it works, is worth it. It is like school, we educate our youth so they can be productive members, like roads, we build them collectively so we can all get from place to place, sucks that you have that many toll roads, but you are living in a city that is a heaven for free capitalism, and it sounds increasingly that you are angry because you think he is a lucky ducky. As I said, try to put yourself in his life... where will he be in five years and where will you be in five years.

Also some of your problems, quite frankly, come from your decision making... you CHOSE to go to the school you went to, you chose to take the job you took... I am sure with that education there were other offers... in other words, you chose many things

But if you think the state does not care, you are wrong. You are an officer of the court, as much as the probation officer and the judge. Neither of you choose what laws to enforce. You want to change that, run for office and write legislation that will legalize drugs... marijuana is top on my list by the way.

[triguy46]

123. Actually, there is one very good lesson here...

Very few educations, very few careers are economically worth borrowing $130,000 for. The obvious exception would be medicine where ones income could easily be low six figures to begin and rapidly rise. And then, it really doesn't matter where you get your basic medical education, local state medical school or Harvard. This example is not really any different than students borrowing $50,000 to teach school. Student debt has become what for many was a first house.

Does a $130K education return greater than that offered by a public university and public law school? Sure there're employers out there only interested in "ivy" but if $60K is what you're gonna get for the investment, there are many much better paying careers at much less expensive educations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. And not even medicine is that good no more

yes you can get that six figure, but you also have to pay up the ying yang in malpractice inssurance, and many are no longer going into medical school. But you are right, kids should not have to pay 130.000 in loans for a 60,000 job... we should have free college education, PERIOD. We should also have free medical care, but oh well... long live halliburton...

[triguy46]

130. I hesitated to open the door re: physicians...

Just using it to tie down one end of the spectrum. The example of students borrowing $50K plus for a $26K/year job is an Oklahoma specific example brought by the student body president to a discussion with the board of regents regarding tuition increases. Quite perceptive i thought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Yes, yes it is

It is funny that all these problems with education really build up when Pukes are in charge.. remember the reagan years?

I do....

It is to the point that you almost need a college degree the way you needed a HS degree a geneartion ago... yet that college degree is increasingly out of reach for most kids

[prolesunited]

86. No, he's a Democrat

Of course he doesn't have a job. He's living high off the hog on YOUR tax money. Actually, we all are. Doesn't that just piss you off. Well, better get back to work. Mama wants some steak for dinner tonight. Thanks for the food stamps. :D

[Danger Duck]

107. Well,

that may be the dumbest thing I've seen all day.

[prolesunited]

114. Just playing off all the RW stereotypes

that you have put forth here.

I've climbed my way out of poverty and benefitted from some of the same programs you mentioned, and let me tell you, I certainly wasn't living "high on the hog." I worked three jobs while trying to raise my son, primarily during the wonderful Reagan years.

My life consisted of shuttling him from one sitter to the next as I tried to launch my career. I went to college and was repaying student loan debt as well. I drove a beater car with a broken windshield and we shared an apartment with my brother so we didn't have to live in a gang-infested part of town.

We didn't have health insurance. I remember one day my son fell and hit his head really hard. I drove around for an hour with him debating whether to take him to the ER since we already were getting collection calls.

So, excuse me — and many of the others here with similar stories — are reacting with hostility to your woe-is-me rant at $60K a year and that you don't get anything from your taxes.

And, don't tell me I didn't work hard enough, or try hard enough, or simply fed off your tax dollars. And my son, a child, should be punished by not having adequate food, health care or housing? I guess he should chosen a better parent.

And, I had a brother with serious drug addictions and mental issues who went for treatment through his insurance, which ruled it a pre-existing condition. He ended up losing his job and having to declare bankruptcy. But, don't worry, he didn't use any of your tax dollars. He killed himself. Maybe your step-brother will have his help cut off and you'll get lucky and he'll do the same.

Now, I have a house, make a decent living and don't really want for anything. And, you know what? I'm not bitter about the taxes I pay. I guess I should be saying, screw you, I got mine and I made it without much help.

Instead, I want people to get the help they need to live a life with adequate shelter, food and health care. The problem I have is not with the taxes, but how they are distributed. Do you know how much real change we could have created with the money spent on Iraq?

But, I'm guessing you'll think this is a stupid post as well. You have no clue as to what real suffering is.

[Danger Duck]

135. I think it's a great post

and you should have health insurance provided to you if you can't afford it. Why does it matter how much I make? I have seventy five dollars of disposable income per week, that goes to laundry, gas, entertainment, ect....

I'm not judging you, and I never would.Most people here are attacking me, for daring to mention that I think people take advantage of medicaid and unemployment.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

146. Wow, do you really see everything only in terms of dollars?

Maybe you don't get food stamps or welfare.
But you do get: roads, utilities, fire protection, police protection; the list goes on and on.

Your life (and my life) would be sheer chaos but for government and taxes.

And isn't there at least some small part of you that feels good that your money is helping those less fortunate than you? Even a tiny little part?

FYI, I pay about $100k in taxes per year and don't regret a cent of it.

[rug]

52. Would you pay more taxes for universal health care?

[Danger Duck]

60. Yes.

But I would rather they cut the money from something else.

[rug]

65. That's the tax payoff from stopping the war.

I don't think the problem is taxes but how the taxes are used.

[shrike]

160. There sure as hell are a lot of tolls in Chicago

I live in NW Indiana, but spend enough time in Chicagoland to know: they nickel and dime you everywhere. So he does have somewhat of a point on his matter.

[prolesunited]

83. You should really get an iPass then

Instant savings on your tolls right there.

[Danger Duck]

138. I have an ipass.

I pay forty cents, not eighty.

[ProfessorGAC]

26. Actually I Do Live In the Chicago Area

So, your assessment is in error. Not that i expected a better answer from someone who expects direct remuneration from taxes when that is NEVER the point of taxes.
The Professor

[Danger Duck]

31. Hey Professor,

Did I assess in error? I hate it when I do that.

No shit taxes pay for roads, police, fireman, ect.... These are not benefits in the context that I'm referring, since we all enjoy these things equally, regardless of our station in life. our country does provide monetary benefits in a discrimanotory matter to people in different stations, the super rich, and the super poor. Being neither, I am not entitled to corporate welfare, low no bid contracts, or free food and health insurance. It frustrates me that there is a system in place that allows people to take advantagae of these benefits at both ends, and doesn't take into account real life circumstances, like mine. I CAN'T AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE!!!! IF I GET SICK, I CAN"T AFFORD PROPER CARE!!!!! That firghtens me every day. If I were to quit my job, and not work, then the Government would pay for my medical care. Do you see what's wrong with this picture?

[ProfessorGAC]

43. That's A Completely Different Point

And, while i agree on the need for single payer health care, making a case for it does not require a "i pay my taxes for nothing" rant.

Your law schooling should have prepared you to make better arguments than that! Come on!

The point of taxes, as i said before, is the price of admission to a developed society. The more you make, the more you pay. If not for the overall, "general welfare" aspect of this society, the opportunity to make more and more money over time doesn't exist. (Certainly not in completely legal and ethical ways.) Undeveloped nations don't have these opportunities, which is why people work for slave wages, or are just abjectly poor and destitute every day of their sad lives. The opportunities to increase the standard of living, sometimes over long periods of time, are what the taxes are for.

I'm not saying the tax system is properly implemented, but people in the middle, like most of us, are never going to get full reimbursement. People at the top will scam the system and get their more than fair share, and people at the bottom will get some help because they need it. People like us don't! Even if there are some straining circumstances, we don't NEED compensatory return. Wanting and needing aren't the same thing.

Making a case of universal health care is one thing. Complaining about taxes dilutes the argument into a selfish screed.
The Professor

[Danger Duck]

59. Yo, professor,

I am typing away at my office, it's a slow day. I'm not prepared to make an elegant argument about the tax system, although I appreciate your input.


I'm just frustrated. I work very hard, usually, and I am looking for quarters every morning to pay tolls, my student loans are killing me, and I can't get any equity going in a house or condo right now. I know things will get better, but it just set me off this morning when I spoke with my step brother.

I realize that I get beneifts from my taxes. It was just an inelegant rant, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Really, I was just hoping to find suggestions on a good health care provider.

[ProfessorGAC]

67. Mayhaps Your Initial Post Could Have Said That

Would have saved you quite a lot of grief from others here.

Sorry i can't provide much there. I'm BCBS of Illinois, and have been for many years, through the employer. Because i worked 30+ hours a week in undergrad and got academic scholarships, and full time through all three graduate degrees, i never took out any loans, so i can't empathize on the student loan thing. I never had to worry about it. But, i'm sure it's a drag.

But, i get the impression you're still fairly young. Be somewhat more patient, Duck. The life your parents or their peers led, that you remember best, came after many years of hard work. The first few years in the real world is tough on anyone not born with a silverspoon in their mouth. (Sound like anyone loathed here at DU?)

Wanting it all now is a sure way to either make yourself sick with anger and bitterness, or the first step toward behaviors to achieve it you wouldn't admit to today. I wouldn't want to see you become a bitter and twisted jerk in 20 years who vote for Repubs because they want everyone to keep all their money.

Carefully consider the cost/benefit to living in an advanced society and how the taxes prevent us from having the sort of abject unrest that leads to all out revolution. We're far from perfect, but there are billions in this world far worse off.
The Professor

[Terran]

70. What's wrong with this picture?

I CAN'T AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE!!!! IF I GET SICK, I CAN"T AFFORD PROPER CARE!!!!! That firghtens me every day. If I were to quit my job, and not work, then the Government would pay for my medical care. Do you see what's wrong with this picture?

If you were to quit your job, you wouldn't be driving a car or living in decent housing either. Sometimes there are choices to be made.

I have to tell you that I don't have a lot sympathy for you. There are *millions* of people who also don't have health insurance who are poor as hell and don't have shit; they barely survive. And you're complaining? You have $300 worth of disposable income every month? Congratulations, I sure wish I had that, as do countless Americans. You are *choosing* to work for an organization that doesn't give you health insurance, when, as a lawyer, you can work in almost any setting you want.

Sorry; if you were my age I might sympathize, but if you're just starting out, well, sometimes you have to work your ass off for a while before things get to be the way you want them to be. And for a lot of people, working their asses off never does them any good at all. Be grateful you have what you have.

[Jose Diablo]

63. Take the transit

I did for many years, problem is though in Chicago, most of the burb to city transit is east-west. If you need to go North-South, just about all you can do is drive.

I also have a rant about relations that I, through my taxes, have supported for 40 years now. It's a long story but the gist of it is back in the late 60's the guy worked, then got on unemployment and from there went to aid to children, using his daughters as a source of living. By then he had moved to a area where there is no chance for earning a living, but that was OK by him. He could then fish and hunt all the time. Eventually his 'high blood pressure', the ailment helped along by taking a lot of aspirin just before going to the government specified doctor, landed him a disability, paid for by Social Security. Currently, he and his wife have custody of their grandchildren produced by his daughters (out of wedlock so the fathers cannot be made to support them, drugs, ect), so money just keeps coming in for him. He, his wife, children and grandchildren each have medical care fully paid for. His wife had a brain aneurysm about 3 years ago, got through this fully paid-up. My wife just had a heart attack and the crummy insurance company we have, I figure it will set us back about $6,500, and thats with insurance. BTW, I am far from wealthy due in part to having to pay taxes inflated by people just like I am talking about.

Problem is, there is no way to separate those that are capable from supporting themselves from that are not. I don't mind paying taxes if it results in supporting the truly needy, those that are not capable of doing for themselves.

Am I being selfish for wondering why I had to pay for this guy to live? He was fully capable of working, but he was best at working the system. I look back and wonder am I the sucker for working all this time, to support this a******, his wife and spawn?

I imagine that like you, I will get flamed, but so what. I am on the left, but I lost that feel-good emotionalism that permeates the left on many issues. Problem is, what to do about it? How can those that are capable of working for a living, but don't, be separated from those that cannot work.

If it were me, I would have let this guy go hungry, that would have motivated him to solve his 'high blood pressure' problem and get back to work. But that decision was not made by me, it was made for me by some frizzy-haired social worker working for the government. No doubt a graduate of some college paid for by parents that were white collar and very generous in how they viewed other people's money.

"If I shiver, please give me a blanket, keep me warm let me wear your coat."

[Danger Duck]

68. Flame on.....

Look, what people here fail to understand is that money is not evil, and business is not bad. It is upsetting to watch our government waste money on anything. And it is frustrating that these programs sometimes don't benefit the intended receiptents, i.e., people who can't afford healthcare.

As far as the metra, it a little less conveninent. I work in a western suburb, and the highway is quicker. I already have and pay for a car, so the metra isn't that much cheaper. It may even be more( it's two dollars a trip, plus I'd have to take a bus from the station).

[Jose Diablo]

87. Ah, they call it the Metra now, used to be called the RTA

Western line, I took the Northwestern into the loop. Seems like it was about $135/month then, but still a bargain when considering the drive in and parking on Wacker, about $10/day at that time.

$2/trip is pretty cheap, you must be closer in than I was.

[insane_cratic_gal]

98. I would say your brother is

one of those who can't afford health care.. who has an addiction who will never have half the opportunities you have at this moment.

You have a law degree, 60k is probably a low income in Chicago.. but in another 5 years what do you expect to be making? Now look at your brother.. and ask yourself if he'll be making 100k in 5 years?

I sympathize with your perceived poverty, but there are others out there who are far worse off, I too wish I had 300 disposable income at the end of the month. I have Ymca dues of 35 a month, I could never afford 200 for a gym.

Cut out the pork.

[Danger Duck]

106. I'm at the YMCA

that's my gym. It's great, it works at any y in the country.

[bleedingheart]

24. private loans???

a bank loaned you money for your education versus the Sallie Mae, and other state and federal programs?

[Danger Duck]

32. Yes.

Pretty common. Citibank to be specific.

[tx_dem41]

33. And the terms were better than the Government loans? n/t

[Danger Duck]

37. No, not at all.

Gov loans only covered a certain amount, I had to borrow more. I went to law school in Chicago as well, and it was fairly expensive. At the UG level, gov loans are more then enough, typically.

[bleedingheart]

38. what is your interest rate?

I had a Perkins loan back in the day that was 5% and Sallie Mae at 8%...and no private loan would give me anything anywhere near that for a no-collateral loan...

[dr.strangelove]

198. I understand this pain

I went to law school when it was far cheaper than it is now, but I still needed private loans to pay for it. When I was at law school, the federal loans totaled ~$18,000 (about 1/3 was subsidized so no interest accrued while I was in school, the other loan 2/3 was unsubsidized, so interest accrued while I was in school), which did not cover my tuition, let alone other expenses. I took out private loans, also from Citibank, for about $9,000 per year to cover my health care costs and the low cost student health insurance, a portion of my rent and food, books, support equipment (like my computer, printer, ink, paper ...) and other expenses like my monthly bus pass, upkeep for my bike and some money to have a beer and play softball in the school league.

There is a cap on federal aid for education, and it often just is not enough to pay for tuition, let alone the rest of the costs an adult incurs being alive. I worked part time to save money and lived with roommates. Many friends took out far more in private loans than I did.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

45. Do you grow your own food?

If you purchase food, realize it has to be inspected and has to follow the Pure Food and Drug laws. If you eat meat, the FDA inspectors make sure it is safe for you.

Do you have any savings? I'm sure with all your expenses, it is not much, but if you have a savings account, remember that it is federally insured.

[Danger Duck]

72. Dude, enough. I'm referring to specific benefits that some people

get, and others don't. I appreciate your insight in this matter, but I assure you that I understand the beneifts of paying taxes in the universal services provided. Sorry for not making that perfectly clear. I was referencing the free income, housing, and health care my step brother receives for doing nothing.

[me b zola]

128. Re specific benefits some people get

This, IMO, is one of the core distinctions between Dems & Repubs, particularly since Reagan began the full out war on the poor.

Repubs focus their frustration of the difficulty of making a living on people who have less than they do. When they see a mother using food stamps at the store they feel as though it is coming out of their pocket.

Dems saw how FDR's New Deal helped all Americans and brought us out of the Great Depression. We understand that the government does have an obligation to provide a safety net so that no American will suffer the horrors of absolute poverty, and we are a better nation & people for believing that every person deserves to be treated with some measure of dignity.


What are your feelings about corporate welfare? The Iraq war and the subsequent looting of our treasury as handouts to administration friendly cronies? What are your thoughts on how the Ways & Means Committee's methods of doling out pet projects in the "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" game--specifically the tens of millions of dollars going to Alaska Senator Stevens **wink-wink** for his cooperation with the drilling for oil in ANWAR?

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR TAX DOLLARS GOING DIRECTLY INTO THE POCKETS OF BILLIONAIRE'S?

If you are really concerned about who is receiving the benefits from our tax dollars, why not be concerned about the billionaires looting the treasury and not giving anything back? The uber-wealthy don't pay taxes because the first thing bush* did after 911 was push through his "economic stimulus package" which allowed for off-shore tax shelters, among other things.


As for your brother, it doesn't sound as though he has it easy. The reality is that most of us are only one catastrophic event, or a series of small bad events, from having to live much like him.

[Danger Duck]

139. As for all that....

this is getting way to serious, didn't mean to press everyones collective buttons. I would like a system that gives on need, not income. I would like better monitoring of those that do receive these benefits. That's all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. Re read your original post

you may understand why you are "pushing" way too many buttons as you put it... I will give you a very free hint here... you described your brother as a lucky ducky, welfare king... some of us remember Ronnie Raygun using the same arguments, that is why.

Son what you advocate for, help on need, is noble... hate to break it to you, but that is exactly what your brother, at the discretion of the court got, help on need.

[Danger Duck]

143. Hate to say it.....

but rehab seldom works, and in my brothers case, has failed three times before. He should go to jail, not collect unemployment, and move on from there. Or they should decriminalize drugs, save a lot of money, and let him enter rehab on his own. Court ordered rehab on his own terms, when he is ready to admit he has a problem.

My big beef is that he gets unemployment while he's in a program that doesn't allow him to work. It is a misuse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. the program does not let him work

that is why he is getting unemployment

You want him to go to jail? Ok, you realize once you go to jail your chances of leaving that system are very low?

As I said, you are angry because in your view he is getting a break. HE IS NOT... and if this works, in the medium to long term this is a savings for all of us. Maybe you should forget about your brother if you'd rather have him go to jail where he will cost you and me 100,000 \year for many years, instead of at worst case, if this worst, 150,000\ ONE year.

Also rehab does work, depends on the patient, but if the patient wants it, it works...

You are angry and cannot see that this was done on need by the state

Oh and legalizing and decriminalizing drugs will not remove some of the problems that come with it... it will remove others, like the violence of the streets, but it will leave others.

I am serious here, stop blaming your brother for your circumstances, you will be in five years where he could only dream off in a life time.. assuming you put your nose to that grindstone... is it fun? no, but we all go through it, hell some of us have it there stuck permamemtnly.


Is life fair? No

Should we all have National Health Care? Absolutely,

Is this gonig to be a fight? Yep, why? many will say, but if they don't pay for the doctor, why shoudl I? They are lucky duckies....

[Danger Duck]

147. He's getting unemployment

because he got fired from his job for missing work. Which was a violation of his probation. then he got court ordered rehab. He didn't mention that he was in a halfway house when he applied for unemployment. He just put down his/our parents address as his residence. the checks come there. It's most likely fraud, but it has nothing to do with his status in the halfway house. In fact, he is suppossed to be actively looking for work as a condition of his unemployment. He can't work, all of his needs are met, and he still receives the checks. This is wrong. Whether you like it or not, irrelevant. He should not be getting these checks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. So report him to the state for fraud

for if you are correct it is a violation of his probation and his ass belongs in jail

Go for it, do it.

Call his probation officer and tell him this, it is in your power to do this... see how this works? YOU CAN do something about it and what is worst, as an officer of the court you are suposed to. But trying to convince the rest of us that taxes don't work will not fly... in this case they are not working the way intended because yuo as a citizen are not willing to report the fraud.

And let me add soemthign else, this is called intervention...

[Danger Duck]

150. Yeah, right.

We live in different states. Also, I would never turn in a family member for something like that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Then don't complaint

If you believe he is commiting fraud and you don't, you at that point become an accessory to a crime, in this case defrauding the state. Or they did not go through these basic apects of criminal law while in Law School?


And yes blood is thicker than... but still you are the one claiming he is comiting fraud

[Danger Duck]

152. That's incorrect.

It's not a crime to not report a crime. An accessory is someone who aids or furthers a crime in some matter. If I were asked about this, in an investigation, and I lied, I would become an accessory at that point.

And for the record, whether or not it fraud is my opinion, I have never reviewed the statute in that State. All I know is that he has to report t othe unemployment office once a month, and tell them he's looking for work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. Whatever buddy

you are willing to complaint about your brother, you think he is commiting fraud and you are not willing to do what needs to be done... again called intervention, You think he belongs in jail not in a half way house getting interventiion, but you are not willing to talk to the parole officer, becuase that will be a parole violation and his ass will belong in jail. Yet you are willng to blame the state for this? What you are selling I ain't buying.

[Danger Duck]

173. Get a life.

If you want to turn in a member of your family for something, more power to you. As far as selling something, go buy a clue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. No Buddy you are the one who needs the clue

we keep giving you the clue... taxes have a function, you are just ragging on it because you perceive something that the RIGHT WING will love you for. They have been pushing this line for years, the lucky ducky line.. since at least Reagan.

You have been drinking it, with your milk every day, and now you are repeating it

As to your brother, if his drug problem is that bad and he is continuing to lie, cheat and steal, what I suggested to you IS INTERVENTION... the kind done by any caring member of a family.

It is your words, you said his ass belongs in jail. What you expecting SOMEBODY ELSE, like the cops, to do it for you? Oh I forgot, taxes don't work. And if he is doing it, guess what next time he sees the judge his ass will end up in jail...

As I said, you have said in this thread that his ass belongs in jail becuase he is commiting fraud. That is part of a drug addict's pattern, intervene or stop complaining and put your nose to the grindstone.

[Danger Duck]

188. First of all, I'm not your buddy.

Second, you can't handle the simple truth that some people do abuse the safety net that our society provides, and when they do, it frustrates those of us that work for a living.

Third, thanks for your brilliant suggestions about my brother and his situation, which you know nothing about. It's been going on for over ten years, everything has been tried. Sometimes you have to get out of the way and let people hit bottom. Sort of like the teacher who was given the task of teaching you logic got out of the way.

Fourth, jail would be good for him. It would do him no good if he ended up there because I reported him, and it would only create a rift in my family. If you don't understand this, I'm sorry. My offer still stands, if you would like to buy a clue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. I can handle the simple truth

but you cannot handle the simple truth that it is up to YOU to do something about it, instead of blogging on it on the web.

And if you think he needs to hit button, get your family together, explain the situation and INTERVENE, call the probation officer

I gave your solution, you think Jail will be good, DO IT...

Intervention is NEVER easy... never has been easy, so go for it, but don't blame the system...

Yes there are people who abuse the system, I was on the front lines where I saw this abuse... and you know what buddy it is the MINORITY who do it, a very SMALL MINORITY.. most people who ACCESS these services do so on good faith.

So you are preaching to the wrong choir...

[Danger Duck]

192. You gave me the solution? Really! Wow! Quick, go give others

the solution on beating addiction. You'll make millions, and save the world!!!!! You are so knowledgable! Please, come to the intervention! It should be about the fifth one, so we know what to do. You delicate genius. You shining star, I am in your debt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. as you keep ranting and raving

you do nothing here

Look I used to work with people in this situation, as a medic I got to do this quite a bit.. for our responses included way too many Overdoses and as the field medics we were social workers, field psychologists et al

I have seen people like you before. And I will leave you with this thought, until YOU DEAL WITH YOUR ISSUES regarding your brother, you will never be willing to do what you think needs to be done. You said jail would be good... but you are unwilling to go there, and hope somebody else does it for you. So first deal with your issues... and you have them, then and maybe then you will be able to deal with his.

And yes been to that dance many a times.


In the end when all is said and done, drug adiction is a family disease.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

175. why not just quit your job as an attorney and become a convicted

criminal and drug addict? It sounds like your brother has it made in the shade. :eyes:

[sbj405]

154. Ever check a weather forecast?

Buy meat inspected by the USDA?

I could go on, but it's probably not worth my time.

[annabanana]

3. Since the police and fire departments don't protect you..

How much are you paying your private security forces?

[Danger Duck]

13. I give up a third of my income

so the police and fire department can protect me? Makes sense. My point is that the people that derive support from the government do little to contribute to it, like my step brother. He receiving over fifty thousand dollars a year in handouts. He comes from a great family, is a college graduate, and is really enjoying the vacation. These programs need to be checked, and thrown out. Why do we spend money on rehab, it doesn't work ninety percent of the time. Why do we pay unemployment for people that live at home and are not even looking for a job, and are living in a halfway house?

This country is out of wack at every level. I've got bills to pay, and the government gets the biggest cut. For being a productive, employed, and educated citizen, I'm not entitled to any benefits, whereas people that don't work, nor aspire to, get to reap the rewards of food stamps, medicaid, unemployment. It's bullshit.

[tx_dem41]

20. Why don't you quit your job then...go on unemployment,

have the drug problem on the side, get the medicaid, and get the food stamps. It sounds like you're jealous of people that do that. I say...GO FOR IT! :eyes:

[Danger Duck]

23. Ok, I must be the bad guy.

I get it. If it upsets me that people who do nothing are supported for doing so, why middle class people like myself derive no tangible benefit from the government, and our increased tax burden, forgive me.

[tx_dem41]

28. You really seem to believe that people that get that

support are living high on the hog. Ronald Reagan tried to pawn that one off on America. I didn't buy it then, and I'm not buying it from you now. If you're just looking for an excuse to be lazy...then again, I say GO FOR IT!

One personal question...are you really a lawyer???

[Danger Duck]

39. Why do you ask?

If I'm lying about being a lawyer, why would I respond differently now? That's also a fairly insulting question, implying that I'm doing something that would imply I couldn't or shouldn't be an attorney. So if you have something to say, say it, or go Cheney yourself.

As for living high on the hog, the whole reason I posted this is because my step brother is doing just that.

[tx_dem41]

46. "Living high on the hog"....

hmmm...he's the one on felony probation for drugs and drunk driving. Sounds like a wonderful life you're drooling over.

[Danger Duck]

140. You said "high on the hog" first.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

53. I'm not sure how much I pay in taxes

But my gross income is a third of yours. My husband was laid off from his work, and has not been able to find another job that pays even a comparable wage (he is a master mechanic, and is now working as a maintance man part time for $8 an hour, and averages about 4 hours a week). He did get unemployment, and really tried to find a job, but there's nothing around here-business is very slow. It didn't help that he has health issues and is 55. His unemployment ran out about a half a year ago. Realize, please, that some people get unemployment but don't like it and really try to get off of it. I know that there are some who abuse it, but I hardly think it is fair that the entire unemployment system should be dropped because of a minority of abusers.

BTW, I have no health insurance, either. But I've found a holistic physician who will allow me to pay over time, and that's what I'm depending upon to keep up my health.

[GreenPartyVoter]

79. What about those families that work AND still need medicaid and food

stamps and WIC? Take the assistance away and a whole lot of people would be completely screwed.

[Danger Duck]

113. I hope they get medicaid and food.

I'm not against that. I wish our system did a better job of measuring need, that's all.

[GreenPartyVoter]

119. I understand that. Believe me it is frustrating to know that your brother

is apparently abusing the system whereas there were times we had to pay the gov't back for our foodstamps because I worked too much some months. Invariably those months would be May and June because that is when schools need subs the most.. and it meant that we had no foodstamps AND had to pay the govt back during July and August, our leanest months of the year. x(

[prolesunited]

95. The solution is clear

You should do in your stepbrother. He, and everyone like them, is just non-productive scum sucking up your money. Let's get rid of the surplus population!

[triguy46]

117. How does $60K get you into a 33% tax bracket?

[Danger Duck]

141. Just estimating.....

all other taxes on food, gas, sales, tolls, anything and everything.

[annabanana]

5. I think it's wonderful that you haul all your own garbage.

[annabanana]

9. and filter your own drinking water

[rman]

163. Also privitized

What's your point?

The guy still can't afford good healthcare - and not because he's lazy or because he's got poor education.

[Danger Duck]

14. Wrong again.

Garbage is collected by private companies in my township.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. Paid For By Whom?

You're acting kind of dense.
The Professor

[Danger Duck]

47. Well, professor,

not to be dense, but as a private company, they are paid for by private individuals. It is built into my rent, at my apartment.

[ProfessorGAC]

55. Nope

In Illinois, almost all developers and commercial property owners take a tax deduction for the trash removal services as ordinary expenses. As a result, the AT profit margins desired moderate the rent levels. Meaning you pay a little less in rent because those charges are deductible to the property owners.

Secondly, the landfill in which that garbage is dumped is not privately owned. There are only a couple in all of Illinois, and they're not in the Chicago market.

If it is, it will be assessed as valueless land, which means the original cost can be depreciated (the only time land can be depreciated, by law.) This lowers the cost of disposal further which means as the ultimately payor, you still benefit.

Thirdly, while Waste Management picks up the trash in our town (and they're a huge private firm), the taxes still cover that cost. Even for the business, the city assesses a fee, collects the money and pays WM. The city benefits from this by sitting on the money for 60 days and keeping the interest. Once again, multi-layered benefits.

See? In a complex economic social structure, few things are as neat and clean as you seem to want them. EVERYBODY benefits in some way from all tax dollars, and under the surface, individuals benefit in small ways, admittedly here and there, and in inobvious ways.
The Professor

[dorktv]

109. Generally that stuff is contracted out but this is Chicago

They have a history of being the purest form of capitalism in the US.

[rman]

162. privatized - got nothing to do with taxes

[ComerPerro]

6. I know what you mean

[tx_dem41]

7. Wow...this is a rant straight out of...

errr..nevermind.

[shoelace414]

10. the main thing he seems to be complaining about is Heath care

So I guess he wants univerisal health care, single payer system.

[Danger Duck]

16. I would love universal healthcare.

[Gormy Cuss]

73. Is this really the issue you care about, not where your taxes go?

It's probably damn frustrating to have so little payback for your gamble to take on such indebtedness. Would you worry about seeing nothing for your taxes if you had the security of affordable health care? If so, you must consider finding new employment. The lack of group plan coverage reduces your effective salary by 5-10K. If you find a new job paying the exact same wage but with even partially paid health insurance you'd be ahead of the game. Alternatively, find a way to lower your fixed costs. Live in a lower rent place in a less desirable town, for example. Ditch the car for a cheaper one if that's possible.

I was once where you are now. I've always paid more taxes than I thought I should in terms of direct payback. When I was self-employed, paying the full Social Security deduction and having to pay for my own health insurance without much tax benefit, I bought a high deductible catastrophic plan.

What others have pointed out is true though: it's not about direct benefit to you. It's the price you pay to live in this society. Everyone benefits from the infrastructure and some of us pay proportionately more for it than others do. Me, I don't get angry at the screw-ups like your stepbrother. I get angry at the people with more money than they know what to do with who hoard it. Read David Cay Johnston's "Perfectly Legal." One of the reasons your taxes aren't lower is the higher the income, the more ways to avoid paying taxes on it. That's just wrong.

[Puglover]

110. You know Tex

YOU'RE the one starting to be abit strident here. I was reading down the thread waiting for an insinuation like the one I'm responding to. Who peed in your Wheaties this morning?

[Kukesa]

11. If you break the pinata and something falls on your head

you'd likely be injured and have to go to the Emergency Room. Bad idea since you have no health care.

Unless someone at the gym could fix you up . . .

[sandnsea]

12. I'll trade ya'

It's a real pisser when you realize that what you thought you were working for isn't as easy to get as what you were sold. Most people don't even have it as good as you do now. Can you imagine trying to live on half what you make and raise a family? That's what people are up against. 90% of America, easily.

Your brother's year off might look good, but if you think you'd rather have his addiction, you haven't thought the whole thing through.

Hang in there.

[jsamuel]

15. Try working on 17k a year and get back to me.

[Danger Duck]

18. I have.

I've worked forever, I've worked at minimum wage, and I hope to keep working until I make mid six figures.

What does it matter how much you make if your expenses keep rising? I probably had more money when I made twelve dollars an hour moving furniture.

[jsamuel]

30. if you make 60k and are struggling, then you are wasting your money on

something. Figure out what you are wasting it on.

Maybe you wasted it on Private school. Especially if you went to law school at a Private university or went out of state. If you didn't take government loans... bad mistake.

I am in graduate school and am working 40 hours a week, while making 17k a year and taking no loans. I don't understand what you did to yourself, but if you didn't work a lot while in school, that is why you have 130,000 dollars to pay off.


Sorry if I sound snippy, but I can't stand to hear people who make 60k a year complain about paying taxes and being poor when there are people who are much worse off than me who make less than I do.

[bleedingheart]

35. it is about choices.

I got accepted to Carnegie Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh.

I was poor...so I chose Pitt because in the end I would have the same degree and a lot less debt because in spite of the grants, loans and scholarships...having double the debt when graduating was not an appetizing idea.

now for some degrees like law degrees...people are willing to take on more debt to get the school with the better name...and that comes at a greater price...but it is a choice.

[Danger Duck]

41. Wow,

that was a pretty shitty response. The only thing I'm doing wrong is paying back my loans from undergraduate and law school. Sorry if that is offensive, I didn't have anyone paying for my education except myself. The tuition at my law school was nearly 120,000. How do you expect me to pay forty thousand dollars a year, and support myself?

Sorry you don't like hearing about my situation.

[jsamuel]

54. You decided to take out loans to pay for law school tuition at an expensiv

e institution. I know that was a choice and not a fault, but I don't understand why you are complaining about it. You chose to do it this way, right? You thought to yourself that you would take the loans and pay them back later using your degree. You could have chosen to go to a less expensive school or you could have not taken loans and worked more or taken school more slowly. You decided not to, and that is fine. So why are you upset that you have to make it up now?

By the way, what kind of car do you drive?

[Danger Duck]

81. Honda Civic

Cheap, reliable, boring. Want to buy it?

[jsamuel]

82. nice car :)

i can't afford a civic :(

I realy want a hybrid, I just can't afford one yet.

that is a good choice for someone with a fixed budget

[Danger Duck]

85. Ummmmm, hybrid.

Any availible for less than 30 grand?

[jsamuel]

89. yes, toyota prius is around 20k and same with honda insight

both get around 55-60 mpg

civics are good too, i think there is a new hybrid civic out now

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. We drive the civil Hybrid

and if yuu go on line and get online quotes, those are fleet prices, so you can shave some money off the base price. We started our negotiation with the civic at 20500, not kidding... the people on the other side started at 25L... same car, same dealership

[Terran]

76. I believe the point was

that you could have worked part-time while you were in school, at least as an undergrad. And thus saved yourself taking out some of those loans. So how is that a "shitty" response? People do manage to work while they go to school, you know? Did you ever work, at all, until you finished law school?

I put myself through three years of undergrad and two years of graduate school entirely by myself at a major university and I didn't have to take out any loans. I worked.

[Danger Duck]

84. And I paid for almost all of my undergrad

doing the same thing. I had a partial scholarship at a private University, and housing and tuition cost me about ten grand a year. I covered almost all of that. I worked at a moving company in the summers, and worked on Campus all throughout the year.

Now, the law school that I went to does not allow you to work, anywhere, during your first year. I had a job immediately after the year was over.

I received no scholarship, nor was I offered a scholarship at any of the schools I wanted to attend. SO, I went to the right school for me, and took on the debt. And I'm paying it back as fast as I can. It's not like I sat around for three years, incurring debt, and just laughed about it while blowing bong hits into my dog's face.

[Terran]

103. Well, you made your choices.

Good, I'm glad to hear you worked as an undergrad, although I thought earlier you said you were stuck paying off some big loans from those years as well. But you decided to go to the university you went to, and you got your wish. Apparently you've done everything you wanted to do so far. Nobody ever said life was going to be easy, did they? Try working a second part-time job on top of your full-time job, like I have for the last ten years, then maybe I'll have some sympathy. For now, you're doing better than a huge number of people.

[rman]

165. you "don't understand" yet you pass judgement?

you've got some nerve.

[Jane Austin]

36. You need to take this up with the Republican War Hawks and

tax cutters.

The ultra-wealthy got a tax cut so that all the things you have to pay for cost you more.

And the cost of this war is tightening up everything.

I'm glad our society can support people like your step-brother for a while, even if he appears undeserving. It's what a civilized society would do.

If rehabilitation doesn't work for your brother, I expect he will end up in jail, on the streets or worse. Our tax dollars (not just yours) won't support him forever, yet your degrees and circumstances will do just that for you.

I think you may be judging one year in your brother's life agains your whole working life.

Take a deep breath and give thanks that you have a job, and that some judge didn't make you take care of your step-brother for that year.

[Danger Duck]

49. Buddy, I know my brother,

and this is not doing him any favors.

[shrike]

158. If it makes you feel any better

This kind of help is not wasted on everybody.

We know a fellow with a degenerative nerve disease. He gets food stamps, a disability check and medicaid.

He gets $700 a month disability. That's right, $700 a month. He pays $550 a month for a shithole apartment (all he can afford), and has $20150 to live on for the rest of the month.
We used to give him $20 bucks to mow our lawn, but his illness has progressed to the point that he can't handle either a riding or push lawn mower. So the husband takes him along on jobs (he has his own business) and pays him $20 bucks a day to pick up tools, clean up after him, etc. It's how he fiils his gas tank (he has a wreck of a car) and pays his phone bill (no cable, no internet, no nothing.) Fortunately, his parents have been able to step in and help him out, because with prices going up he has less to spend every day.

[ixion]

25. you get a government who thinks you have no rights

beyond what they feel like giving anyone at any given moment -- ranging from 'above the law' and 'license to kill' all the way to 'this person never existed'.

That's what we get for our tax dollars. :-(

[Orangepeel]

44. it's a travesty that you don't have health care

it's a travesty that not everyone has health care, and I understand your need/desire to rant

Also, I agree with you that:

1) the middle class is being squeezed and
2) some people can take advantage of government assistance

But, I doubt that you would trade your life for theirs (otherwise, why don't you get yourself fired so that you can get unemployment?).

It sounds like you may have made some bad choices in your own life, but they can probably be fixed. With a $130,000 education, you ought to be able to get a job with health benefits.

[Danger Duck]

50. I've been out of school for

less then a year. I used to get health insurance through my school.
I'm doing great, for my age and experience. However, it's bothering me that there are no concessions made in some of our benefit programs for certain people at certain times. End of story.

[kostya]

51. So, let me see, this must be an interesting section of Chicago

where the prisons are shut down, all the kids go to private school (or none at all), there are no traffic lights, signs, curbs, water mains, electric grid, no federally subsidized food in the markets, people not as fortunate as you to be able to go to private school get no training in community colleges, etc. but that's fine with you, and apparently in your area there are no border patrols, so you have lots of people from all over the world flying in to live there (and take advantage of all the free-loading they can eat). I do wonder though how you're able to keep a number of larger countries with militaries to not claim your neighborhood as their own soveriegn state. Etc., etc., etc. I can understand a previous poster's questioning if you really are a lawyer as that generally takes some amount of intelligence and the ability to think things through. I listed off a number of major ways your taxes support you and it took me about 30 seconds. I assure you it's not an exhaustive list. And before you start rattling off all the "Private" services you pay for, better check into "corporate welfare". Sheesh.

Sounds like the main issue is with your brother not your government. Go troll elsewhere.

[ourbluenation]

56. But I'll bet you would never trade places w/ step brother

So let that one go, man. His "year off" is an not open ended freebie.

As for your situation, try and focus on the bright side - you have a excellant education, your working towards paying off your debts...it will get better. I promise.

You didn't mention it, but you think you have it bad - try being gay! You totally get ripped off in terms of the benefits received in exchange for taxes. No equal protection under the law just for being born not straight.

Anyways, in the meantime try and refi your student debt and look for a job with benefits.

[Danger Duck]

91. I wish I was gay.

Really, I do. It would solve lots of problems. Create some new ones, but still, it would be nice. is there a pill I can take?

[Arugula Latte]

58. I didn't see you mention those lazy corporations that are sucking in your

tax dollars.

This is what the Repukes want; for people to blame all those "welfare queen" types of people and such while conveniently ignoring that multi-millions of dollars go to corporate welfare to prop up those poor struggling CEOs of multi-national corporations. :nopity:

[Danger Duck]

92. See post 31. mentioned them there.

[fredtaylor]

61. Health care

Owning my own business made me buy my own insurance. 35 y/o single man and I pay $120/month.

[Danger Duck]

94. For catastrophy, right?

I can't get a plan that cheap. Send me some info, if you like.

[fredtaylor]

133. No

It's health care through Farm Bureau and Nationwide

[shrike]

159. Is it a decent plan?

Have you had a chance to use it yet? Does it cover prescription drugs?

I'd pm you, but you're too new for private messages, so hopefully you'll get back in this thread. I know some folks struggling to find affordable health care, so I'd appreciate a little more info.
Thanks

Shrike

[Marr]

66. I agree that we need national healthcare, and we can pay for it by

gutting the budget for leaches like Halliburton, Bechtel, and the rest of the military industrial complex- and by taxing the people at the very top, who just keep getting tax reductions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. You drive on a road paid by YOUR TAXES

when you call EMS, they are paid by YOUR TAXES, at least the dispatcher is... the cops in the streets are paid BY YOUR TAXES... much of the electrical infrastructure is subsidized by... wait for it, you got it, YOUR TAXES.

Now should you be getting Health Insurance, as in national Health Insurance, absolutely agitate for it. Is your student loan subsided, absolutely...

And when you deal with all those people who serve you, such as the paralegals at your office, they were trained in public school, just as you, with somebody else's taxes

Learn about the concept of the Commons... oh and your brother, from what you described, will have a hell of a time making a life of himself for that felony will make it hard for him to even get a job at Mickey Ds. This is why it is far cheaper to invest in schools in the long run than in the criminal justice system... just my two cents... oh and your taxes are better called a service fee to live in this country and ours are the lowest among the industrialized countries.

Maybe you might want to live in Mexico (lower taxes) or Somalia, NO taxes...

[Gregorian]

74. You get bombs.

I've been yelling your story from the rooftops for years. Oh, and by the way, even if you did have health insurance, you wouldn't be able to afford a doctor. I spend a grand a year on it, and all it pays for is big stuff.

This is a defence oriented, punitive oriented country. We bully, crush, kill, and we convict, and imprison. That is what we're really good at.

But as you can see, we don't get anything for our taxes that we can call useful. I posted a few topics on what we could have had, in lieu of killing Iraqis. All I got was that it was history. Get over it. The money's spent. Aids- let em rot. Stem cell research- fuck you. Alternative energy- what problem? Rapid transit- boring. Katrina- they're black, and we need to gentrify the place anyways. Health care- don't rock the boat.
But bombs? We don't dare stop the wars for fear of letting the bomb factories sit idle. The bombs are coming out in huge sums. Bullets, and all of the other peripherals. Jails? We could care less about educating our kids. But we build jails to no end. Drug war, but no drug help. It's not about drugs. It's about jails and punishment. That's how America works. But what did you expect from a country that killed millions of indigenous people in order to call it it's own.

This is the same country that convicted three major corporations in the early part of last century for buying and dismantling what was a fantastic system of transportation within our cities. We had it! It existed. What they wanted to sell gas and tires. They wanted to build a monster of an interstate highway system. Oh, and now a bridge to nowhere.
As a child in the sixties, my dad was always talking about this subject. I grew up aware of my country's lack of concern.

If you want to be fair, there are lots of programs that are funded by our taxes. And a lot of them are stupid. But not all of them. Our local taxes do a lot for infrastructure. But what our federal taxes do, at the moment escapes me. I honestly don't see it. ANWR gets 50 billion. Go to Freerepublic, and maybe one of those goons can argue what our fed taxes do for us. I know they do a lot. Veterans Administrative hospitals. Oh, there's NASA, and their space pen spinoff. And everyone knows how fruitful the moonwalk was. One of my favorite tunes is a black man singing about "whitey on the moon".

I guess that all boils down to- I agree with you. And I'm really tired of it. But remember, the bombs rain down on Iraq thanks to your tax dollars.

[GreenPartyVoter]

77. Student loans suck. Been out of college 12 years and still paying. I say

we should have public education from cradle to grave just like we need healthcare to be. Just suck the money out of the DOD budget. We need more college degrees and fewer bombs.

[AZBlue]

127. Student loans are EVIL (and I'm not exaggerating)

They are on paper a great thing. But, there's no counseling or advising and they don't tell you what your repayment costs will really be. So, you can easily wind up in the same boat fincially as someone who didn't go to college. For 20 years.

And, the Department of Education is a nightmare to work with - just wait until they get something wrong in your record. It's their error, it's their fault and you'll be the one paying for it because no one will help you. No one.

Oh, don't get me started...I could go on for days.

:rant:

[On the Road]

78. Danger Duck, You are the Worst Target Group for Taxes

I used to get hit really badly too -- divorced, non-homeowner, middle-class income, no head of household, no dependents (my daughter's on my wife's tax return). And boy, you have a boatload of student loans!

The only consolations are that (1) your income is going to rise while your loan payment stays the same. Things will eventually get better. And (2) the amount of government services you use is probably lower now than at other phases of your life. If it makes you feel better about it, you're paying in effect for services you benefited from when you were younger or will benefit from when you are old.

Seriously, see a professional tax preparer. Not an H&R Block -- a one-man show who's been doing it full time for years. He may find ways to save you money. (For example, I believe you can deduct up to $2500 of student loan interest a year, if you're not doing that now.)

[OzarkDem]

80. Even sadder, your taxes going to corporations

who pay nothing, but get subsidy checks instead.

You also point out one of our party's blind spots when it comes to human services public policy. Dems have their own established and well funded special interest groups whose influence, over time, has led to "over serving" many populations of people needing assistance while ignoring others.

In my area, working adults (mostly women) who are going through treatment for serious illnesses, like cancer, and who can't work get no health care coverage, have to give up their homes and live in vans or sleep on friends couches and end up with hundreds of thousands in medical bills get nothing.

These are people who've done nothing more than work all their lives, pay taxes and raise families, yet they get nothing in return when they need help, except rude remarks and hostility from those in the social services community. In our area, some of those social service agencies routinely get caught in their own greed - paying top management salaries of $200-$300,000 a year and giving staffers Humvee's for company cars.

Dems and liberals have a lot of housecleaning of their own to do.

[ArkDem]

88. Get a better job.

[JHB]

93. You get a society that supports law firms that pay you $60K

I mean, what do you want to hear? You borrowed heavily for a very expensive education. You're in the "grindstone" phase of your life, where you have all that debt and all the bennies are years away. Don't look at one year in your step-brother's life -- in ten years you'll be in very different places.

Now, for your taxes, you should have health care, but to be honest a big reason why we don't is because people who thought a lot like your rant said "I got mine, so the hell with my tax dollars going to pay for health care for the damn lazy (insert racial, ethnic, class, or social epithet of your choice).

[EstimatedProphet]

96. OK-I had the same problem you do

I lived in DC-Arlington, actually- and was bringing home $2200 a month, with $600 coming right off the top for student loans. Cheapest apartment I could get was $750/month, and it was a pit.
1. Split a 2 bedroom apartment. Get a roommate. that will cut costs.
2. Move to a cheaper place. Cities are too expensive to live in when you have half your paycheck already claimed.

Screw the taxes. The taxes aren't your problem. The student loans are, and they aren't going away. Make your life cheaper.

[pitohui]

97. i bet yr step bro would trade places w. you in a minute

are we seriously to suppose you would prefer being incarcerated in a halfway house & getting all those freebies to being a young, highly-paid attorney w. a huge career in front of him

yeah, the student loans are tough at first, but you'll be laughing in a decade when they're paid off and you're earning $180,000 a year

go away, most of us at our HIGHEST earning never got any $60K in salary, and we went to college and post-college too

unless you inherit yr money, yes, while you are young, you will have the starting out expenses of education, house, maybe marriage and a new baby, big deal, at least you HAVE a future

what does yr step brother have that you resent the food on his very plate?

this is one of the saddest posts i've seen these week

[NewJeffCT]

99. Your apartment, your air, your car

Your apartment is probably built to some level of federal & state/local saftey regulations and has to be maintained to a certain level as well.

Your workplace is up to certain OSHA standards, even if it's just the height of your desk to prevent carpal tunnel syndrome.

Your car is built to certain federal safety standards and has federally mandated safety equipment like seatbelts. Your tires must be of a certain quality, etc.

The air you breathe is kept somewhat clean due to federal clean air standards (If there were none, we'd probably all have to wear gas masks)

If you've ever flown in an airplane, ridden on a bus or train, etc, you are partaking in some sort of regulated industry that your taxes help to at least partially fund.

The food you buy at the grocery store likely has to meet certain FDA standards.

The bank that holds your student loan is regulated by various federal & state agencies, including the FDIC, Treasury, etc.

[European Socialist]

100. The pissed off rich. But you are right about not getting much for ..

your tax dollar.

[rman]

166. He's not rich. Rich is when you don't have to work.

Rich is when you make a million a year and have a couple of million - or a couple of billion in the bank.
Rich is many orders of magnitude above middle class.

[rman]

168. Point being; even the middle class is having a hard time.

Which should not be news to all you resentfull folk. Listening to your comments is like listening to conservative talk radio.

[SaintLouisBlues]

101. Not saying you are a republican, but this thread reminded me of...

http://www.newshounds.us/2004/08/31/a_day_in_the_life_of_joe_middleclass_republican.php

A Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican

By John Gray, Cincinnati, Ohio, July 2004

Joe gets up at 6:00 AM to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards.

He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and that they would work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, that Joe now gets too.

He prepares his morning breakfast-bacon and eggs today. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how�many chemicals it�contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is cleaner because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some
liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards.

Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noon time. Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dad's; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards.

He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration (FHA) because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republicans would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad, who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show. The host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day)

Joe agrees.

"We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I'm a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

Thanks to my friend Patricia who forwarded this to me. And a BIG THANK YOU to John Gray, who wrote it. Visit his site at TVNewsLies.org for more dialog on deception in the media.
Reported by Marie Therese at August 31, 2004 10:10 PM

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

102. Well, you got the "world's mightiest military" that can't even control

a ravaged 3rd world country.

As for your high living brother - would you trade places with him? The same question I usually reserve for rednecks who whine about Affirmative Action, "welfare queens", and all the "breaks" that minorities get.

[onenote]

105. what if it was your parents

Apparently, you don't care for your half brother or feel terribly close to him. But what if your parents (or a full sibling) that you cared about ran into a medical problem and his/her care was partially subsidized by government programs such as Medicare, medicaid, etc etc. so that you don't have to pay out of your pocket. That's one of the things taxes do.

Sure the current tax system is rife with inequities. But to claim taxes don't do anything for you is the same as saying that you are not part of a larger society.

And one other question: you say you went to private school, apparently from kindergarten through college, not relying on any tax-based support. Did your parents take out loans or were they in a position to pay your way through high school (I'll assume you bore the expense of both college and law school). Did they never receive anything in the way of a government benefit? How did they accumulate the means to pay for your education, health care, etc.?

onenote

[Jed Dilligan]

126. Taxes are the only thing

supporting the courts, which are the only reason lawyers need to exist. So I'm not buying your argument.

Would you rather have your family pay out-of-pocket for all the expenses related to your brother's addiction and recovery?

[Danger Duck]

144. Yes.

Thats the only way he'll recover. They wouldn't pay for rehab, and they wouldn't let him sit around and do nothing all day.

[triguy46]

116. Just you and your wits out on the frontier...

battling the forces of evil, no one to help, just you alone. Wow. Pretty self sufficient.

I would suggest an alternative: You made choices. You are living with your choices. But your choices don't get you an automatic refund. If that were the case, I want my share of the money spent killing Iraqis. I want to throw the elderly and disabled out on the street, because I want my money.

Quit being selfish. You made the choice to borrow $130000 for a $60,000 a year job. Your choice, no one put a gun to your head. Suck it up, cowboy. Lastly, How in the world on $60K a year are you paying 20K in taxes?

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. niow that yuo mention it, I have no idea

he has a bad tax preparer I swear... he truly needs to talk to a good tax preparer

[Hubert Flottz]

132. Use that "Faulty Intelligence" on the line that says...

"Adjusted Gross Income." * Or just tell them, "I Forgot!" Or "Go F*** Yourself!" Or "I've got to get on with my life." It works for Bushco. If "Zero Accountability" is fair for the goose it should be fair for the goslings...COOK THE BOOKS! * SHRED THOSE 1099s! * Pull an ENRON End Run on them! * Get Arthur Anderson to do your book keeping!

[ArkDem]

153. Uh Oh, reality check!

:rofl:

[gulliver]

120. And you don't even qualify for Bush's tax cuts! You are as screwed ...

... as it is possible to be.

On edit: You do, however, qualify to pay interest and principal on Bush's debt.

[eyesroll]

125. A civilized society is judged not by how it treats its best off,

but how it treats its worst off.

Sorry, dude. I have little sympathy for you, and I do have to ask how often it is one finds a company that pays lower-than-average wages (and you are making a good salary, but it's low for a beginning Chicago attorney in a private setting) and no health insurance? Usually it's one or the other.

I'm likely going to law school next year. I will probably end up with significant debt as well (probably less than yours, but still a lot). I am 30. I'll be 33 when I get my JD -- so I'll be "just starting out" again in a few years. I might get a corporate job making $90K a year. I might get a public-interest job making $35K. I don't know. I'll make a choice -- if I have a choice to make -- when I get there.

But I won't be out there whining that I am somehow entitled to things because "I'm a fucking lawyer." All that a JD will entitle me to do is practice law (WI has no bar exam for in-state graduates). Everything else is up in the air, and it'll take work to get there.

[Bridget Burke]

129. You're paying for an expensive war (which you barely mention)

Plus corporate welfare. Plus taxcuts for the rich. But your biggest rant is about your STEP-brother. (Family issues?)

Student debts are your biggest problem. You chose to incur them. Did you try to find a position with health care?

I take public transportation to work--in Houston, Texas--but you'd rather pay toll than being inconvenienced.

I hope your stepbrother does well. You will do OK, too--when you qualify for those tax cuts. But you'll still be bitching about welfare bums.

[Mr_Spock]

136. Be nice if we got health care along with all the other benefits

I never complain about my taxes - always paid 'em, always will. I didn't need a cut by Bush and it did nothing for me (well, technically I never even noticed a tax cut - even at my salary). If you want to live without pride as a bum who can't buy anythin he want's, then live off the government dole - don't be surprised if you feel suicidal though...

[newportdadde]

149. I'm raising a family on less then that.

1200 mortgage(350 extra a month), 10% pretax 401k savings, my wife is raising our son at home and is pregnant with twins.

So what the fuck are you spending your money on?

As far as your student loans that is an investment, in 15 years you'll be in a private practice knocking out 200k+ and you can get a BMW with McMansion and laugh at all us slobs... :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. We're raising a family of 5 on less than *half* that.

Surviving takes creativity and prioritizing.

"I can't afford health care so I joined a health club"

*sigh*. In my area, a 25 year old can get a catastrophic medical policy for $121 per month.

Anyone who brings in 60k and can't find a way to free up 2% of it for something as important as medical insurance, and didn't realize that the first few months of work after 18 years of school would be a period of frugality, should ask for a refund of the cost of that fancy education.

Better yet, he can come visit my family for a week. It'd be much cheaper than his education, and he'd learn some useful life skills.

What kills me is how pop culture treats $60k as a laughably small salary, it's the median family income in the US.

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Well we lived on a Chief's salary IN HAWAII no less

and now my husband is pulling what this kid is pulling... and we still have to get creative and are saving for a home...

[Danger Duck]

187. IN chicago,

it is not that much. I don't live downtown, but rent is still astronomical.

[lumberjack_jeff]

203. Then perhaps...

...he should appeal the court order that forces him to live in Chicago. He IS a lawyer, after all.

:sarcasm:

60k per year is $5000 per month. Withholding tax for a single guy is about $1000. Social security is about $350 on top of that. Add an $800 school debt (a portion of which is tax deductible) leaves about $2800 a month, for a single guy to live on.

Sorry. No problem.

[Danger Duck]

207. IS there an emoticon

that makes fun of the snot nosed posters that use emoticons?

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. Sure.

It's right between to the one used to make fun of 24-year-olds who call people twice their age "snot nosed", and the one that is used to describe the feeling one gets when listening to a lawyer (who's starting pay is more than twice the amount you raise your entire family of five on) whine about the shitty break they got in life compared to their drug-addicted incarcerated stepbrother.

IMHO, If one wanted real advice from people that could help solve the problem, then listening to the collected advice and experience here is a good start. When someone offers a suggestion on how to get affordable medical insurance (for instance) replying with "I can't get a plan that cheap. Send me some info, if you like." is a bad tactic.

If the real objective is a venue to whine, the response should come as no surprise.
:nopity:

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

211. All IS well with my "brood"...and thank you for asking.

1) In public, you didn't ask for his advice, you offered to allow him to give it to you, if he liked.
2) There are myriad ways to reduce your taxable income. Given your education, it would be as condescending for me to point them out to you as it would for you to offer me parenting advice.
3) I spent much of my career earning significantly more than your salary, and I'm glad to have replaced it with parenting and frugality. I am not envious of your income, but I am surprised that your education has not given you the life skills to live within it, nor the empathy to see addiction as anything other than a daily life choice to get something for nothing. What you see as disruption and envy is more akin to tough love.
4) Chicago is not a cage, it's a lifestyle choice. If the choice was not what you expected, use your license in a different Illinois city. It's much simpler than it seems. To paraphrase Sam Kinnison, you don't need debt or tax relief, you need a U-haul truck.

Don't underestimate the value of a mundane budget.

[Danger Duck]

214. Fair enough...

but I would disagree with your take on my asking for insurance information. Plus, I've been sitting at home for two days,sick as hell. I would love to have any info about quality insurance. PLease PM me if you have something that has a decent copay.

Anyhooo, I understand frugality all to well. I'm not unhappy with any choices i've made, and I'll be fine. As far as addiction, there are two ways of looking at it. The wrong way, and my way. But I suppose i can allow others to make mistakes. It's not easy not being me, and I should be tolerant of others that are not me, since they are forced to be them, and bask in the light of my greatness.

I'm feeling better. Good enough. Fare thee well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. yep

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

You sure you are in the right board? After all we all sandal wearing, commies, who know a little more about life are not envious about yoru life style choice or for that matter how much you make....

[Danger Duck]

215. I've watched Rocky IV

enough times to grasp the threat ofcommunism. I refuse to let you and other posters use your state sponsored training to kill my mentor in the ring in a so called "friendly" exhibition match. Sorry, I can't let that happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. Oh boy I have been called a communist? WOW

on Democratic Underground, so are ALL DEMOCRATS Communists? And please do define the term, not only the clasic dictionary definition but since you went to law school and can do the work, care to tell me the philosophical differences between Ancient Christianity, Classic Marxism, Marxism Lenilism, Stalinism, Maoist, Sweeden's take on it, and Spemcer's. (I am sure I have missed some, such as Assisi'. and Heguels)


By the way insteand of getting your edjumication from a freaking movie, how about picking up a book.... or two. You may want to start with the New Testament actually, and them lines about caring for those who are the least among us... wow that is COMMUNISM, RUN for the HILLS, hide the women and children!

How bout that chum?

Oh and you think the United States ise above any criticism by the way?

Again you sure you are in the right board? You might be happier here

Freerepublic.com

They will agree with you all the way

[Danger Duck]

222. Dude, it was a joke.

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. Sorry if I am not laughing

and your essay is due by tomorrow

;-)

[Danger Duck]

224. Dude, Dolph Lundren

said all that needs to be said.

[Cats Against Frist]

190. Well, he did say he had an $800/mo student loan payment

But my boyfriend and I are operating our one-child household on about $45,000 clear, and we have a large mortgage payment, a small car payment, insurance, student loans, an IRS payment and we eat all organic food (which is expensive), we still put $500 a month into savings, and we all have health insurance. I don't know what this person is buying -- his rent and/or car payment must be expensive. For some reason, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

But I do think that we're too highly taxed, and most of it goes into war, corporate subsidies, salaries for corrupt politicians, pork projects, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. Actuall;y we are NOT highly taxed

we are the LEAST taxed among the advanced countries, this is a right wing talking point

The problem is where our national priorities happen to be... and a large percentage, aka the majority of your taxes do go to DoD insteand of I don't know a national health insurance system.

[Cats Against Frist]

197. Oh, I think we're too highly taxed at the federal level

and I've studied it beyond the "right-wing talking point," baloney. I want more state and local control -- I wouldn't mind having my state taxes go up a little, and get that fed shit down.

Most of the time when people argue against libertarianism, they always say, "you want your roads privitized?"

Well, hell no, but, except for the Interstate Highway System, I think that my state and city can handle the rest of the roads. My water and garbage are already privitized, and I would prefer that my electric come from a local rural co-op. I think that a system of loosely regulated public, private, charter and magnet schools should be taken over by the state, completley. Same with police and fire.

I also think that social security should be opt-in, and that people over a certain income should be excluded, and I'm obviously against federal corporation and farm subsidy, shifting what federal tax dollars we could use to do something worthwhile to the oil and gas conglomerates, developing deadlier and deadlier weapons, foreign adventure and paying the Mossad out of the back of a truck to torture people.

In other words, I wouldn't mind seeing my local taxes go up, but I think we pay way too much into the fed -- particularly now, but even when Democrats are in charge.

[nadinbrzezinski]

199. No we are not

check the data you will be shocked

That said... lets see what does a Freshman or a Canadian get for his or her high taxes?

Full Medical Care

World Class public education

Roads (and the German ones are the best, the autobahn is federally funded)

World Class Research

In some cases, not all even college education (Sweden I believe, but not sure ok)

What do we get?

The best military money could buy...

And a half way descent social net in the process of being taken apart.

[lumberjack_jeff]

202. Wage-earners are too highly taxed at the fed level.

because other kinds of people aren't.

Inherit your money? no tax
Live off capital gains - almost no tax.
Interest? Little tax.

The income tax is really a wage tax, and it is on top of the 15% load for social security.

[Fescue4u]

155. Well they enable you to posts rants on the Internet for one

[Deja Q]

156. That's why people want taxes abolished. Privatize everything.

Don't fall for their game. We both know that privatization helps the big piranha eat the small minnows.

[ArkDem]

157. Oh, the HUMANITY!!!

[KG]

161. gee, i get this same whine from my rush worshipping family members

my heart breaks for you. really. :eyes:

[SeekerofTruth]

170. Wow! That was helpful. Not! To the OP: My Advice...

Now you start to understand where Republicans come from and how it is an important part of the societal evolutionary process.

Having been in your shoes (many years ago), I understand your pain. It's why I'm a fiscal conservative and social liberal. The government can and many times is more corrupt and less efficient than large corporations. (The military isn't the only part of the government that is fiscally screwed up).

There are no insentives for the government to be fiscally responsible, whereas in the free market there is.

My advice: Make a plan on how long it takes before you're clear of the loans, start trying to build wealth (buying a house, yes it can be cheaper than renting, you just have to work hard at it). 20 years out may seem an eternity for you, but now that I'm there, I'm glad I created my plan when things were bad.

Also, use your pain and suffering as motivation to better yourself and the world around you. Most important of all: In the years ahead, never forget what you are going through now.

A quote that I heard long ago that I try to live by:

"As you progress up the ladder, remember what it was like to be on the bottom rung"

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. But republicans ARE NOT fiscal conservatives

and you know that, they are the spend, spend party

[SlavesandBulldozers]

182. "no insentives for the government to be fiscally responsible

whereas in the free market there is."

Good one!
:spray: :rofl:

[npincus]

171. hey Duck, I get what you mean

and we should all be able to vent sometime.

if you can stand sharing a place you may be able to save a couple of hundred bucks a month.. in a few years you will have enough for a downpayment. There are some gov't sponsored programs which may be able to provide a mortgage with a lower cash down requirement (my friend bought a brownstone in Brooklyn through a HUD program at 5% down that he has been (slowly) renovating- you probably know about this stuff being a lawyer for a development firm.

keep the faith, things will get better. When you find a significant other to live with, that will help. My standard of living improved significantly when my (not-yet) husband moved in with me and we merged out "assets" and split expenses.

[shawn703]

172. Wrong, you benefit immensely from your tax dollars

Not only are you provided with roads, military, police and fire protection as others have mentioned - but what about these?

Public education - even though you may have had private schooling, you cannot deny that an educated community is in your best interests. I'm sure you can name some reasons yourself.

Public assistance programs (SS, unemployment, welfare) - You don't know if you will need these in the future, but you are paying for a safety net for yourself too. And do you think a starving populace is in your best interests? Take away these programs, and you might be relying a little more heavily on your emergency services during the rioting.

[hfojvt]

174. how about a little sympathy?

I agree, it sound like you are paying too much and getting too little. Bush did not include as many tax breaks for the childless.

There should be some kind of deduction for student loan payments. That is obvious to me. A person with $60,000 income and an $800 a month student loan payment does not have the same disposable income as someone without that loan payment. And yet they pay the same amount in taxes?

Of course we do not have the money for such a deduction because the Republicans gave it all to the millionaires and people with kids and spent it on a war.

Check Gore's tax cut proposals of 2000 and see if he promised to give you a break.

[Skidmore]

178. Another thread that will not die.

[porphyrian]

179. I think you've underlined what's wrong with the current state of welfare.

The problem with welfare is that it rewards those who remain unemployed, yet punishes those who try to better themselves by getting a job or getting married by cutting their benefits, despite the fact that their income still remains below the poverty level. Shouldn't welfare reward those who attempt to support themselves and ease their burden on society? As is, the system is counter-intuitive.

If you're still riled enough to do something, write your Congressmen. Tell them to draft a bill that really fixes welfare, not one that just pleases people like yourself by reducing the amount of time one can be on welfare, which does nothing to solve the problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. Excuse me for sayig this

but 60K is NOT bellow the poverty level

[porphyrian]

181. I wasn't talking about the OP...

...I was talking about the people who are on welfare. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. that's ok

[hfojvt]

201. the EIC fixes some of that

it rewards lower income people with families who have jobs, and even single people with tax refunds. It could have been expanded some, but Repbulicans prefer to target the upper incomes. At $60,000, barring an AMT, I am betting the tax cut was at least $2000.

[gollygee]

183. Good thing you aren't making minimum wage and supporting a family

Imagine how they feel.

[Danger Duck]

193. If you make minimum wage,

don't have a family. Abortion is a wonderful thing.

[gollygee]

195. Lovely sentiment

:sarcasm:

What about people who had babies and then lost their jobs and had to take min. wage jobs? What would you have them do?

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. Read the whole thread

I am not kidding here

[Danger Duck]

205. Eat their young.

[prolesunited]

213. You're a real piece of work

Good luck in finding any love and happiness in your life with that ugly, entitled attitude.

[Danger Duck]

216. Who needs love and happiness

when you can have booze and birth control? Like so many have told me, we all make choices. DOn't have kids unless you can afford them. If accidents happen, correct them. Adopt or abort. Don't raise kids in poverty. It isn't good for anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

218. So what happens when you loose your job, you had a comfy

middle class job and end up there, and the kids are five years old... should you just go behind the barn and shoot them?

Again you sure you are on the right board?

[prolesunited]

219. Or perhaps you should give them up to some nice rich couple

who can afford to take care of them.

And, I definitely think he's lost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. free republic woudl be a better fit for him

actually, he is a freeper and does not even realize it... by the way you realize you are a commie to, don't you?

:-)

[pinto]

221. Y'know, I felt for you when what seemed an "off the cuff" rant on things

got testy.

But, whoa...that's some chip you've got on your shoulder.

Take care.

[gollygee]

184. Something else

this is a good example of how Bush's huge tax cuts for the rich hit the rest of us. $60k for a single guy is decent money, and should be and certainly used to be plenty. But it's people in this middle-income bracket who are hurting now.

[mtpWriter]

186. Call Hannity's show. He loves rants like this.

[Chicago Democrat]

200. Thank God your brother lives in a country where those benefits are

available!


I know tons of lawyers that ended up dis barred after they became alcoholics or gamblers or went insane or got the shit beat out of them and could never walk again. In each of these cases they had help. In each of those cases they 'drove someone insane'

How does it "drive you insane" WHATEVER HE DOES! OR GETS? Sounds like a million other people in the USA in the year 2005.


Develope compassion. It will help. Remember someone elses happiness should make you HAPPY. Someone elses misery should make you WANT TO HELP! what's wrong with you anyway, what do you think he's getting away with? Jeez. Be nice to your stupid fucked up brother. LOVE him or ignor him.

[chopper boy]

204. Why so little?

How is it that you managed to rack up loans of over $130,000- I assume for both undergrad and law school...

And only have a job making ~$60k a year?

I went thru 4 years of engineering undergrad, have personal loan debt of only about one year's tuition... and I"m making ~$55k.

Did you not get any financial aid?

[MojoXN]

206. Holy Shit!

You have THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS per MONTH in disposable cash? Fuck me running, compared to me, you're living like a fucking KING! After MY bills are paid, I have substantially less than $300. CONSIDERABLY less! To the tune of $250 less, on average. My one unnecessary expenditure is fast internet. Count your blessings, amigo. Some of us would LOVE to be in your shoes!

EDIT: Some of us would love to find a non-minimum wage job, too!

(No, this is NOT a biggest dick contest, so just hold your collective toungue, rabble-rousers!)

MojoXN

[BlueManDude]

210. You pay for Tom Delay's health care - isn't that enough?

[BamaGirl]

225. Hmm, and how old are you?

My mom's a lawyer. Man, we were broke for years. Even when I was a teenager half the time the car co was calling for their payment, and the other half the phone was cut off. She paid her loans off at about the same time she took a huge jump in salary. She worked her butt of to get the top in her specialty and the salary she currently earns, and it took 30 years to get there. She still doesn't haven't health insurance. Hey after I pay our bills and buy food, I have no dollars left to spend on anything. No Christmas for my kids. I sure as hell understand frustration, and do it on half your salary.