The Pa. teen went to her parents' funeral????

[underpants]

WOW-I know she hasn't been convicted (obviously) but this is pretty bold isn't it?

Kara Borden, left, with his sister Katelyn, right, at the graveside service for their slain parents Saturday, Nov. 19, 2005 in Lancaster, PA. Michael and Cathryn Borden were killed by Kara's boyfriend David Ludwig, police said, following a heated, hour-long discussion early Sunday morning about the teens' relationship. (AP Photo/Bradley C Bower)

Pa. Teen Remains in Care of Relatives
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051120/ap_on_re_us/parents_slain_relationship_11

[qanda]

1. Sorry, but I would have kicked her in the grave

Selfish little brat!

[Tesla]

2. How cold blooded do you have to be!!!

I mean do you think he did this without her knowledge??

[Deja Q]

4. I once had a friend, who wanted to do in his ex's new bf...

She didn't know about it.

I didn't want to know about it.

He didn't go through with it. Thank God.

It is possible she is genuinely is innocent and not in the know.

Of course, she might have known or even told him to do it too.

We don't know.

Not yet.

But in this day and age, it sadly does not surprise me.

[mopaul]

11. nothing shocks me anymore...

...to use a DUers screen name

[qanda]

5. She watched him kill her parents and then still wanted to go with him

She should be in jail as an accomplice.

On Edit: When I think about the fact that her parents were dying and she left them there for dead, it just makes my blood boil. I cannot imagine making that bad of a decision at any age.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. Where has it been said that she went voluntarily? Ludwig has also...

...been charged with kidnapping...why do you think that is?

[ohio_liberal]

13. Kidnapping charges are going to be dropped

Apparently she said she went with him willingly.

[elehhhhna]

51. New this AM said she ran out behind him to his car and jumped in.

[durablend]

82. I tells you, I was absolutely SHOCKED

To hear that they were having sex and she likely willingly went with him and probably conspired all or at least part of the murders.

Never in a MILLION years would I have EVER thought that...nosiree...

:sarcasm:

[elehhhhna]

98. Gave me the vapors, I tells ya.

A Christian girl being naughty? Nevah!

[Lerkfish]

14. here's a link...

sorry,

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/21/parents.slain/index.html

[underpants]

17. WOW!

The Pennsylvania affidavit stated that Kara's sister, Katelyn, also witnessed her father's death. She locked herself in the bathroom after Ludwig opened fire, police said.

Kara's 9-year-old brother, David, also was in the home and ran to a neighbor's house to summon help, police said last week.

[willing dwarf]

28. Guns really do kill people

If that boy hadn't had the gun, he would have had a horrible bitter fight with girl's father, punches might have been thrown, one or the other might have suffered bodily harm, but the parents would still be alive and the boy wouldn't be facing murder charges.

The easy availablity of firearms is a set-up. Hot headed young men and women can become murderers facing prison for life if they have hold of a loaded gun.

It's my belief that in civilized society, firearms should be forbidden.

[sendero]

47. Ok...

... wave your magic wand and make them go away. And after that, get rid of heroin, crystal meth, and lsd.

Then you can start on head lice, crabs, and fleas.

Seriously, let me know when you've perfected this utopia.

[whatever4]

87. and also, no guns for us, no guns for the cops EITHER

No guns for anybody. I'll go for no guns when it really is no guns. Or we simply won't have a firearm-free environment, just a "helpless for all but the authorities" environment.

It's not the same thing and it doesn't typically turn out well.

[TeeYiYi]

97. A slippery slope . . .

. . . culminating in social genocide through the systematic elimination of all narcissistic psychopathic personality types showing a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others. Who will be the leader of this perfected utopia? Someone just like me, I hope. And not anyone that's not like me. That leaves . . . ME.

Excellent observation sendero!

TYY

[ernstbass]

91. My thoughts exactly

[qanda]

15. You must have missed the news yesterday...

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.team4news.com/Global/story.asp?S=4150371&nav=0w0v

Pennsylvania prosecutors say a 14-year-old girl was not kidnapped, but left willingly with the boyfriend accused of killing her parents.

According to court papers, Kara Borden told detectives she went with 18-year-old David Ludwig of her own free will. Ludwig allegedly told detectives the two of them planned to marry and start a new life together.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. I was primarily responding to the linked article...but to be honest...

...following these kinds of stories is not even close to being on my priority list.

[Lerkfish]

77. but refuting them without knowledge DOES appear to be on your

priority list.

odd.

[willing dwarf]

21. Do you understand the idea of magical thinking? Psychosis? Denial?

Any of those things would allow her to walk off with her boyfriend and imagine that "it would all be alright."

The desire for vengenance, to instill moral values through punishment will only lead to further violence.

Our society is steeped in blame. We need to move from a Culture of Blame to a Culture of Compassion and Responiblity-- but that needs to be done in a case like this, one of the hardest cases, before it can take hold in the smaller cases.

Only when the people of this land become steeped in wisdom, compassion, truthtelling and responsiblity will we move out of the vortex of violence which traps us now.

Peace!

[depakid]

84. Good luck trying to explain

As you can see, even many progressives get triggered into emotional responses- often without knowing any more of the facts than are thrown in their face by the corporate media.

It's unfortunately an all too natural process- and it's one reason why propaganda is so effective.

It short circuits the reasoning process.

Bottom line is- whatever the girl's state of mind was, or currently is- she's going to bear the heaviest of scars from this tragedy for the rest of her life. That, I would think is punishment enough at this stage.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Yes

She didn't call 911 or anything.

[underpants]

8. (from the article) they weren't OFFICIALLY boyfriend and girlfriend

"They weren't officially boyfriend and girlfriend because their parents didn't approve of them being together," said 16-year-old Stephanie Mannon, one of Kara's neighbors. "Sometimes they would secretly get together."

[FreedomAngel82]

52. Secretly get together

So what does that include? Planning the getaway and what happened?

[elehhhhna]

54. What of the rumors of them exchanging naked pictures on the internets?

[hallc]

49. she was absolutely in on it

they just dropped the kidnapping charge on the boy

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. She is 14

Lots of kids want to 'kill' their parents at 14.

[ClintonTyree]

3. Another good Christian girl.........

gone bad. Jesus has already forgiven her though so it's cool. :eyes:

[Deja Q]

7. I thought Jesus doesn't forgive until you are dead;

until death, you are meant to live as noble as you can and NOT be a vile slimy snake?

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Do you know what her beliefs are?

Has there been a quote revealed that shows her beliefs? If not than don't go there. :mad: You think everyone who kills is secretly a Christian? Good grief!

[nodehopper]

59. I read that she was home-schooled in a strict Christian household

it's been in the press.

[FreedomAngel82]

64. And that means what?

That doesn't mean anything all the time you know. There is no proof shown that she did everything with the boyfriend because of a religious belief system. She did it because she was being selfish.

[nodehopper]

73. you implied above

that you thought people were assuming that she was a Christian

I don't know why she did everything with the boyfriend, but I am demonstrating that people weren't just speculating that she came from a strict religious background. She has a website on which she talks about her Christian faith. I don't think anyone is saying that only Christians kill people or that every twisted sociopath is a Christian. I believe the original comment was about her being a "good christian girl" and the irony in that, since a lot of the times there are news stories about criminal or amoral acts like murder or child abuse committed by people who are public and vocal about their religious devolition.

YOUR reply seemed to indicate that you were concerned that people were making baseless assumptions that she was a Christian. I am showing you that this is, in fact, substantiated. I don't think anyone is saying she did this because she was a Christian, although I personally believe that being home-schooled in a religious household is not a healthy way to socialize a child. I certainly don't think that everyone who is home-schooled by Christian parents grows up to murder them, though.

I am not sure what you are overreacting to, but it seems that in this case you are overreacting to something...

[helderheid]

96. her blog lists her first interest as JESUS (all caps, multiple !!!)

[GemMom]

42. What kind of a kid does this to a girl?

18 yr. old hooking up with a 14 yr. old? When I was 14, I had the sense to not get hooked up with 18 yr. old losers.

[Javaman]

78. Even worse, if I had a buddy dating a 14 yr old, I would think there

was something wrong with him.

When I was in highschool there was some guy in my senior class that would go after junior high girls. This guy was a loner, had odd social habits and was major dope head.

There are alot of things going on with this guy in this story. I'm no shrink but I would say he has had some odd sort of upbringing if not it being abusive.

Has anyone interviewed his parents?

[phylny]

83. This kind of kid:

These kids who died last year were friends of one of my daughters. Similar situation: they were in love, her parents told him to stay away, and the result was tragic - double suicide.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47626-2005Jan4.html

edited for clarification

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Do you know what their beliefs are?

Was it ever mentioned what her beliefs are? If not than don't go there.

[nodehopper]

66. it's been in the news

"The Borden family had lived in their home for several years, said neighbor Tod Sherman, 47. Mike Borden worked for a printing company, and the children were home-schooled, he said.

Sherman said the family knew the 18-year-old suspect through a home-schooling network.

Stephanie Mannon, 16, said Ludwig and Kara Borden had been seeing each other secretly.

"Their parents didn't approve of them being together" because of the age difference, she said. "It wasn't because he was a shady character, because he wasn't."

Both Ludwig and Kara Borden maintain websites. Hers refers to interests in soccer, art and her Christian faith; his says he enjoys "having soft air gun wars" and claims expertise in "getting in trouble."

from http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051114/w111454.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. You must have missed this line in the article:....

..."Police have said Kara Borden is a victim in the case...".

[underpants]

12. Justice is blonde

:eyes:

I know they are "sorting this out" and she might get the minor technicality but either way showing up here seems a bit odd to me....but then I have never been involved in a double homicide love triangle multi state car chase so I might not know what I am talking about.

[renie408]

25. Where do you find the Emily Post book that covers THIS?? n/t

[underpants]

The funeral or the multi state car chase?

Emily doesn't DO funerals

[elehhhhna]

56. LOL

[FreedomAngel82]

57. A victim? I don't think so

She said she went WILLINGLY on her own FREE WILL. So she is not a victim. She went with him.

[Lerkfish]

10. tv was reporting this morning she left willingly with the shooter...

it was young love and they wanted to start a new life together.

:puke:


apparently their new life had to start with a little murder.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. TV has reported a lot of things over the years...not much has been true.

[WinkyDink]

29. I'm in eastern PA.

This story is big around here, lots of details in the newspapers.

He confessed. She ran to his car as he was pulling out of the driveway, and asked to go with him.
Police intend to use store/gas station receipts to track their flight, and to find videotapes that show she was NOT under duress in being with him.
Yeah, yeah, innocent until....

Fourteen years old is not a toddler. I'm 56, and I can remember quite clearly those days (Beatles, yo). NO WAY would I have been so delusional or besotted that I would've countenanced MURDERING MY PARENTS!!!!!!!!
THAT? Would've dropped the love-sick scales from my eyes DAMNED FAST!

ETA: Now we're excusing an 18-YEAR-OLD?? He had a frickin' ARSENAL in his CAR when he was apprehended! He stated in his confession that he "intended to shoot them so I did".
In PA., people with guns and rifles most certainly know what death is; we're a huge hunting state.

The ONLY "MENTAL ILLNESS" they have is thinking they could escape the law! But they share this delusion with EVERY. SINGLE. CRIMINAL. EVER.

[willing dwarf]

36. Lititz is just near here too

And I wonder, when you were 16, could you have gotten hold of those guns as easy as this boy did? I don't think so. Hunting yes, but an arsenal? I don't think so.

The sickness is in the society, allowing commercial interests and gun makers & owners pedal their lethal wares so freely.

[FreedomAngel82]

60. If your parents have them

LOL. You think allowing commerical intrests makes the boy go and kill this girl's parents? LOL!!! Oh brother! If I'm going to ever own a gun it would be MY personal responsibility to make sure the gun is safe and where nobody can get to it but me since it'd be in my name and thus my responsibility.

[willing dwarf]

18. Mental Illness takes many forms

This girl and her boyfrined are clearly sick-- whether it is psychosis, bipolar disorder or extreme narcissim, there is a grave illness underlying the behavior of this girl and her boyfriend. Whatever it is, it has been intensified by their being both so young and having few influences beyong their little world.

Both of the are both the perpatrators and victims of this horrible crime, and they will need to live their lives with the pain and guilt and awareness that there is nothing they can do to undo what they have done.

I can't imagine how they can even stand up or walk living within such a shattered world of their own creation...but how can any of us claim to have a reasoned opinion on the behavior of this girl who we now know was perhaps a passive observer and therefore complicit in her parents murder?

[Jim__]

19. She's 14 years old.

Probably in love with a boy for the first time in her life. Do you remember the 1st time you were in love? She didn't shoot them. I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt until more is known.

[willing dwarf]

23. You are absolutely right

Many girls of 14 feel like they will die if they can't be with their true love. Add to that her conservative Christian upbringing and guilt about perhaps exploring her sexuality-- she may have felt she needed to shatter her world to be free of it.

Still it is interesting to ponder how she would be treated if she were African American. We are far more understanding of our white children than our darker skinned children.

I would argue not for harsher treatment, but instead, we should use this girls story to remember the many other thirteen and fourteen year old children in our communities who are not white and who are being tried as adults for complicity is similar crimes. We should grow in compassion.

[FreedomAngel82]

63. How do you know they're Christian or conservative?

I love your prejudgment on their beliefs politically and religiously. How do you know she isn't an athiest liberal? *snort* Please stop your anti-Christian bashing from a Christian. I get tired of all of you saying every murder is the fault of my faith. It's not. That person still has freewill to do what they do, so get off it!!! There is NO WHERE MENTIONED OF THIS FAMILY'S BELIEF SYSTEMS!

[willing dwarf]

81. Not a prejudgment

I read several articles about the Borden family and the youth group their daughter was in. They homeshooled their kids to keep them from being exposed to the secular world. The children were active in fundamentalist church youth group.

[qanda]

26. In some ways I agree and in other ways I don't

It's true that she is young and possibly in love for the first time. However, there's the story of a 13 year old boy who hit a kid who was teasing him with a baseball bat-- the kid died. The 13 year old boy was given a 12 year sentence. Youth and an inability to handle emotional situations does not absolve you of all repsonsibility.

I don't blame her for the boy shooting her parents, unless she helped plan it, but I do think she had a callous disregard for the life of her parents when she left them there to die.

[ohio_liberal]

27. I agree with you

I actually do feel some sympathy for her and the boy. I know he's of legal age and all but crap, he's only 18. Most kids these days don't know shit at 18. I'm not excusing what he's done but I wonder what was going on in that brain for him to think killing people was a good idea.

[WI_DEM]

41. most 18 year olds these days don't know it's wrong to kill people?

boy that is pretty sad.

[ohio_liberal]

43. That's not what I said

I don't think many young adults are capable of thinking of the repercussions of their actions. I work for the adult parole authority and the overwhelming majority of cases are 18-25. They don't see that what they were doing at the time was going to come back to haunt them later. And their emotions often get the better of them.

[WI_DEM]

45. ok

that probably is the case with most people who murder regardless of age. That or they are egotistical enough not to think they will be caught.

[Gormy Cuss]

76. I feel sorry for young adults who don't get it.

Too bad for them. They break the law, they suffer the consequences. We as a society need to help them if there are mitigating circumstances like addiction or mental illness, but if we don't make the consequences clear we do them no favor. It's also a slap in the face to the many young adults who do consider possible repercussions before they act.

If most 18 year olds are incapable of considering possible repercussions we should classify them as children and stop pretending they have legal responsibility.

[FreedomAngel82]

68. I don't feel sorry for them why?

They did it on their own. They knew what they were doing and the boy had it all planned. He didn't give a damn about anyone but what he wanted. The girl didn't stop him or obviously try and she didn't even call 911 to help her parents. They're nothing more than selfish!

[underpants]

33. "She didn't shoot them"??? her 9 yr. old brother knew this was wrong

her yonger sister knew that this was horribly wrong. At 14 she should have too.

I know I know affairs of the heart and all but this is a bit much.

If you want to talk about BLAME BLAME BLAME I am all with you but sometimes the blame is well founded...this appears to be the case here.

[noonwitch]

38. Maybe she was afraid he'd kill her siblings?

Who knows what was going through the kid's head after witnessing her boyfriend kill his parents. She was in shock, and probably scared. Unless she had a part in the killings, then she was probably more scared of being caught.

[FreedomAngel82]

69. If she was in shock why didn't she call 911?

Why did her brother have to go and get a neighbors help?

[qanda]

44. Very good point about the younger sibling knowing it was wrong

[Jim__]

48. Yes - she didn't shoot them.

So far, I haven't seen anything that indicates she knew her boyfriend had a gun, or any intention to shoot her parents. Maybe she did know, but, like I said, she gets the benefit of the doubt. As for leaving with him; if she didn't know what was going to happen, I imagine she was pretty much in shock.

[FreedomAngel82]

71. So why didn't she try to stop him?

If this boy claimed to love her like he claims he wouldn't have done so at her wishes. They would've just ran off together with the parents unharmed.

[Jim__]

75. All I know about this is what I've read in the papers.

It sounds to me like she spent the night with her boyfriend. Was this the first time she had sex? He had sex? They were home-schooled and, my guess, raised in very strict religious environment. Having sex was a life-changing event for both of them. They imagined that this meant they were deeply in love. They pledged to spend the rest of their lives together.

When he took her home, her parents were furious. They said she could never see him again. This shattered their little fantasy world. I imagine they argued, loudly. She's torn between what she believes to be her new-found, undying love for this boy; and her love for her parents. When the argument turns violent - maybe her boyfriend tried to leave and take her with him - the father tried to stop him ...

Or, maybe not. I'm not sure anyone knows yet exactly what happened - except for the boy and girl - my guess is that they'll talk.

The whole thing is a personal tragedy for everyone involved. And, the boy at least, will pay with a long time in prison. I don't find it at all surprising that the girl would later attend her parents funeral.

[WI_DEM]

39. it's amazing how we forgive people because they are young

At 14 I would hope most kids know whether shooting and killing people is right or wrong and that murder is wrong and if some sick punk kills my parents I sure as heck wouldn't have any sympathy for him because he is my boyfriend. Yes, in love for the first time in her life. I remember when I was 14 and I was in love too--for the first time--but I very much doubt I would have felt sympathy for someone who shot dead my parents.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. But she didn't do anything to stop him did she?

She didn't call 911 did she?

[spooked]

22. Wouldn't it be worse if she didn't bother to go?

These are her parents, after all. I'm sure she loves them despite the tragedy. She probably needed to go to ask their forgiveness...

[No Exit]

24. She loved them so much she wanted them killed.

Or something like that. What's really sad is that she has a bunch of younger (and, I think, one slightly older) siblings who are now orphans because of her "boyfriend".

[willing dwarf]

30. I wonder if this is the Lizzie Borden legacy?

[No Exit]

79. Whoa! Now wait a minute, Lizzie was found not guilty!

Surrrrrre she didn't do it.:sarcasm:

[nonconformist]

32. There is no evidence at this time that she wanted them killed. nt

[REP]

31. Anyone Remember Carol Ann Fugate?

I think we have another one here, and I think she's not as innocent as some would like to believe.

[WinkyDink]

35. Yes, and Susan Denise Atkins, and Patricia Krenwinkel.....

Manson's Girls were all about 19, and initially sentenced to death.

This 14-year-old is a cold bee-yotch. Wanted her own way, tired of home-schooling, under parents' eyes and thumbs: that's my take on it.

Such a "child"---she exchanged nude self-pix with the killer.

ETA: Nice she could manage a sweatsuit jacket for the funeral.

[REP]

37. Fugate (14) Was Starkweather's (19) "Kidnaped" Girlfriend

Who went on the run with him after he killed her mother, stepfather and 2-year-old half sister. Starkweather and Fugate got away longer and killed more, but the story sounds familiar.

[nonconformist]

34. This picture here breaks my heart ---->

Kara Borden, right, arrives for the graveside service for her slain parents with her brothers James, left, and David, center, Saturday, Nov. 19, 2005 in Lancaster, PA. Michael and Cathryn Borden were killed by Kara's boyfriend David Ludwig, police said, following a heated, hour-long discussion early Sunday morning about the teens' relationship. (AP Photo/Bradley C Bower)

[xultar]

40. I love how when they talk about the community they say how Christian

they are. blah blah blah.

[elehhhhna]

70. and how they've forgiven her and "we all make mistakes" (!) but

not ONE word about the boy.

I guess homeschooling doesn't prevent real-world problems from intruding on kids afterall.

[xultar]

80. Wasn't the boy a Christian too? They are hypocrites.

[seabeyond]

46. she is what a stupid 14. she doesnt know shit......

she is not an adult, and wont react or behave like one.

[elehhhhna]

67. If I may add to that--

14 y/o children are physically capable of sex but not generally emotionally mature enough to deal with the STRONG feelings it produces. Add a creepy BF who likes very young girls and you've got a disaster.

She may have freaked out and joined him on the spur of the moment--but I doubt we'll ever know the whole story--

[seabeyond]

74. lol lol and i will add, throw in christian fundie

and more and more and more to add. you are right on elehhhna

[Mutley]

58. Do we know yet how much she might have had to do with

the killing? I mean, maybe she helped, maybe she didn't.

[coffeenap]

61. Has anyone considered there might have been abuse in the

family? Of course, it would not excuse the horrendous act, but might begin to explain it. :(

[elehhhhna]

72. good point. Although I suspect her def. of abuse is "they won't let me

sleep w/my 18 y/o boyfriend".

[Swede]

65. Some people have her tried and convicted. She's 14 years old.

Here in Canada,there would be a publication ban on the names to protect her.

[depakid]

85. But this isn't Canada

and people here seem to have an addiction to this sort of thing- otherwise, the media- and especially what passes as "local news" wouldn't be serving it up to them every day.

Reading some of the responses here reminds me a lot of the observations Michael Moore made in the film Bowling for Columbine....

[soleft]

86. Anybody ever read Romeo and Juliet?

I can remember when I was a teenager, there were times shit happened and I really thought it was the end of life as I knew it. Did I kill anyone? No, I probably would have been more inclined to kill myself, and if I had been missing any one of the support systems that kept me from doing such a drastic thing, anything is possible.

If were are to take anything away from a discussion of this story, I hope it would be to sit down with our kids and remind them at at 15, 16, 17, sometimes it seems like when bad things happen nothing good will ever come again. Cause they just haven't had enough life experience to know that you can feel like life is meaningless, or be in such pain that you don't think you can bear it, but that passes and life is good again.

I'm not going to stand in judgement of these people because there are plenty of people who's jobs it is to to that - what I am going to do is talk to my son and make sure he knows if he ever feels like there's no way out - he just has to hang on a little longer.

[whatever4]

88. Question about this, is she wearing red?

Not to sound silly, but shoot it's how I was raised, is the girl in question the one wearing red? How weird.

Is it just me?

[tx_dem41]

89. Not only has she not been convicted...she hasn't been charged....

our knees sure are jerking today. I guess some of us love to be able to say "What a nice Christian". :eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

90. She should be allowed to go. We don't know all the facts yet.

[underpants]

94. I didn't mean that she should be allowed to go

just that it seemed a bit odd to do it in public. A private ceremony or some time would be more of what I would expect.

[SoCalDem]

92. Her lawyer probably insisted on it.

For her to NOT go, would pretty much send a message to the jury in her eventual case.. She's a minor, remember, and not the shooter, so the legal team is no doubt going to present her as a mixed up young girl who was "mezmerized" by an older wacky boyfreind, who intended to harm her (she just didn;t know yet)..They will surely claim that she was "in shock", and just made some bad decisions...due to the ptsd she suffered from seeing the shootings..

The fact that she's blonde & cute will help her too, no doubt.

[AlCzervik]

95. I don't think they knew at the time she went willingly, i'm sure her

lawyer advised her to go.