what does present day American culture have to offer

[G_j]

that is a positive?

..just posting this on a whim..

The "Fuck it" thread has inspired me to ask this.
There are plenty of negatives, what are the positives?
Or do you see any positives? It is also reasonable to fear that we are on a downhill slope, being dumbed down by TV and Walmart consumerism. Where are we headed? I sometimes do fear America wants to be dumbed down and there is not much to stop it if that is what people want. Is this true?

First, I'll offer that progressive/liberal values (although under brutal assault) such as women's rights, environmental protections, worker safety, children's rights etc. represent our very best impulses and have helped pave the way for others in other parts of the world. The RW has managed to erode a whole lot of these protections etc., still many Americans continue to hold them dear. To me progressive values represent the best of America.

Does our present culture manifest these values at all?

This has turned into a rant more than anything else, but any thoughts?

[DanCa]

1. What present day culture to me indicates that you must conform or leave

That violence and wealth over shadow compassion and reason.
The united states of America has turned into a continental high school with the bullies in charge of things. And stupid ignorant bullies at that.
The only upside is i guess, is that your gold if your an embryo. I hear that Chimp and his murder inc crew want to give you voting and property rights soon. :sarcasam:

[Skip Intro]

2. self-validation thru shopping?

I dunno

[leftstreet]

4. Consumerism is civilization's first anti-depressant. n/t

[DrunkenMaster]

132. Its the second antidepressent

you forgot the Coliseum.

[wake.up.america]

5. I am sure I will be bullied once again on this, of all forums, but I ...

will say this: My impression, without stating whether I agree or not, is that most Europeans are aghast at what they perceive is happening in America.

Capital punishment,the ban abortion movement ,gay bashing, hijacking of religion for personal gain, rising crime, violence, election fraud, the declining quality of education, the lack of care for the sick, aged and poor, the general sense of greed. America is no longer that shining beacon on the hill.

That is not to say problems do not exist here. We are all aware of that.
We are speaking of America.

If somebody calls me a troll or a freeper I will be pissed to the max.

[G_j]

8. thanks

that is just the type of honest input I was hoping for.

I'll echo that between the death penalty and the outrageous number of people locked up in the (racist) prison industrial complex, we are decidedly backward and cruel in this area.

[Karenina]

29. Hi W.U.A.!!!!

Sehr lang nicht gesehen!
:hi: Welcome back! :hi:

[wake.up.america]

37. Ja, ich bin wieder da. Wo bist du gewesen? Vielleicht habe ich...

nicht richtig aufgepasst.

Es gibt hier bestimmte Leute die sehr gemein sein können.

Schade.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Japanese are aghast as well

:-(

[MellowOne]

56. Most of the world is aghast as well n/t

[melody]

66. No one should bully for stating an opinion

However, I think such a huge assertion should be open to critical challenge.

America was never a shining beacon on the hill. We're like every other nation in the world. The difference is, there was a time it did the bidding of the big money folk to use us as some prima facie currency for "trading" with the world at large. Now, we're being taken apart and supplanted by another currency. C'est la vie.

We're no better or worse than any other nation. We have an equal number of challenges that express themselves in variant ways.

Incidentally, who would call you a "freeper" for stating something critical about the US? I'm always banging heads with the knuckle-draggers on the fact we aren't the be-all and end-all of civilization.

[otohara]

69. It's Not Just Europeans Who Are Aghast

when people ask, I like Bill Maher say "I'm Swiss"

[Karenina]

131. I can pass for Canadian

Got the accent and body language down pat through the benefit of early childhood exposure. ;-) Did so frequently during the Clinton debacle when not in the mood to field the oft-asked, outraged question, "WHAT the HELL is WRONG with you people?"

[burythehatchet]

72. TROLL!!!!!!

[Karenina]

49. In other parts of the world

Suppliers are mobbed by the hungry...
Black Friday at Wal-Mart is a symptom of a deep sickness of spirit.

[melody]

3. Our culture doesn't have to "prove" itself to anyone

Our culture doesn't have to "prove" itself to anyone. In its true form, it's not for outside "consumption". Everyday, American scientists and artists discover and create, along with people in all other nations. We have the same abilities as any other national. Only a bigot would say otherwise.

Bigots are the only individual category of humanity that deserves to be excluded from discourse.

As for the perversion of our culture that has been used by multi-nationals to profit, that's not our culture. We have the same dignity and right of pride of any cultural entity anywhere on the planet. Anyone who says otherwise is revealing their own arrogance and ignorance.

[G_j]

6. of course we have the right

but my question is really about where we are and where we are going.
Is our 'culture' becoming more shallow and crass? Is it becoming deeper and richer? Are we losing things that are important?
Of course one has the right to have "pride" but if one is proud, what are we actually proud of?

I am just trying to offer an oportunity for folks to throw some thoughts out there.

[melody]

7. This is the kind of question that always leads to generalizations

...which is why I made the response. I'm really tired of American-bashing - as sick as I am of the insults to other cultures because they don't conform to our own notion of "rightness".

As I said, there are gifted people making discoveries every day, but no artist or scientist does so in a vacuum. We always have centuries of other artists and/or scientists from every culture behind us.

But yes, I think that much of our television drama and comedy, many of our films, and a lot of our music, will compare favorably in the long-term, if seen within the context of our culture. That said, all such judgments are, are a reiteration of personal prejudices for what equals "good".

I'm not contesting your judgment in asking the question, just offering my own context, fwiw.

[RagingInMiami]

16. We are a nation of ignoramuses

It's not like we have to "prove" anything to anybody. But you would hope we can be a lot more educated and knowledgeable about the world and its situation.

But we're not. We're fucking idiots. We have one of the lowest-rated education systems in the world and we are making it even harder for people to educate themselves.

I spent a year going to school in Colombia when I was 15 years old and was amazed at how advanced they're education level is. I spent two years living in Europe after college and was amazed at how much more advanced they are as a society.

But in the USA, we have this gung ho attitude that we're the best no matter what. Maybe that was the case after WW II, but the rest of developed world has caught up and surpassed us.

And most Americans won't accept it because "we're not going to let the French tell us how to be" or whatever the latest talking point is.

As long as we have a buffet line where we can gorge ourselves, we can fool ourselves into thinking we are the superior country, but we're not. Our empire will fall. And I am sad to see it happen because it was preventable.


WE ARE AN IGNORANT NATION!!!!

[melody]

17. If you see ignorance, then you are ignorant

We aren't Europe and we're not Colombia. If you've been taught to hate your own culture, I find that remarkably sad. I have been educated for eighteen months in Europe and I've traveled extensively. We have an equal number of wise and gifted people in this country - we are no more or less sophisticated than any other culture. If you think otherwise, then you really have to meet some new friends. It sounds like your circle of influence is very shallow. Also, we can hardly match "sophistication" between two cultures, because to be "sophisticated" means something distinct to each culture. There is no common viewpoint to judge everything.

I'd also suggest you try talking to your average fellow in Paris or London. Average folk are alike all over. They are average.

[RagingInMiami]

19. Call me what you want

But I see a nation where half the people voted for Bush while the whole world saw was a fucking moron he was.

If you don't see ignorance, then you are in denial.

[melody]

26. You are seeing what you want to see

I'm not calling you anything. I don't know you. However, I see arrogance when ever I hear someone generalize about 280 million people. It's simply arrogant to assume that one's own position is unusual because one is highly educated and sophisticated and the masses are dumb. That's basic elitism which is almost always more a mood disorder of the percipient than an actual evaluation of the situation.

Even if we choose to disbelieve the obvious fact that both elections were stolen (which you prefer to do for your own unknown reasons), half the country did NOT vote for George Bush. 40 million Americans were too young to vote. 30 million Americans were too ill, elderly or otherwise incapable of voting. 71 million voted for John Kerry. 74 million voted for Bush. 5 million voted for other or merely write-in candidates. The rest simply chose not to vote or were working too hard or worried about other things to vote or merely stopped believing in their own system because of people sneering at it from the outside. One quarter of the population voted for George Bush. Half the population either voted for Kerry or couldn't vote for anyone.

I'm not in denial - I'm in mere reality. You might dismount from your own pedestal to find that people are alike all over -- and you're not nearly so erudite and special as all that.

[EFerrari]

27. Raging is right in this respect: We are no longer the desired

destination for foreign graduate students. And that speaks volumes to the degredation of our educational system.

[melody]

65. That is definitely true, but that's a very different thing

We've seen repeated attacks by the right-wing on our educational system. In California, we once had one of the best in the world, now we have a nightmare, thanks to too many years of right-wing politics.

Isn't it fascinating how much this right-wing trend favors every other nation but ours? Some nations in particular, too. Hmmm. An interesting thing, that. ;)

[Karenina]

30. Ladies and Gentlemen

Exhibit A.

[melody]

68. Karenina, that was about the level of discourse I expected from you

Welcome once again to my ignore list. :eyes:

[RagingInMiami]

52. I totally believe both elections were stolen

But enough people voted for Bush to allow them to steal it.

And I'll say it again, we are a nation of ignoramuses and I blame our education system. We are brought up to be egocentrical, to not give a fuck or care about anything that is going on around the world.

Perhaps you think it is acceptable that our students are taught only American history while the rest of the world learns world history.

Perhaps you think it is acceptable that our students are taught only American geography while the rest of the world learn world geography.

[melody]

71. you're confusing terms

There's a vast difference between being ignorant about all things and being ignorant about some things. Europe (and that is who we're talking about here - it's not Us versus the World, it's Us versus Europe) has equal problems in other areas. They have levels of unrest in immigrant ethnic regions that we simply don't have here to that extent. If you need to see Europe with rose-colored glasses, then I'd suggest to you that that is as egocentric as your depiction of Americans. Europe has just as many deficits of culture as we do, they merely express themselves in different ways. Humans cannot escape their essential natures. If we can bring Godel to the anthropological realm -- we're helmed in by the limits of the larger human philosophy. We'll always end up tripping over our feet an equal number of times.

I was taught world history. I didn't take American History until I reached college, and then only as coursework toward my major. I was taught world geography. I know where Paraguay is and I can find Chiapas on a map. I wonder how many French students could find Guatemala.

Do we have problems in our educational system? Absolutely. They started with the destruction of our public school system, however that destruction is a complex matter that has as much to do with forces outside this country as inside it, imho.

One last thing to add -- how is it you believe the election was stolen but you still contend that "half of America" voted for Bush?

[RagingInMiami]

55. And speaking of our education system

Here are some findings from a survey on young Americans, aged 18-24. The link is down below.

87 percent cannot find Iraq

83 percent cannot find Afghanistan

76 percent cannot find Saudi Arabia

70 percent cannot find New Jersey

49 percent cannot find New York

11 percent cannot find the United States

Other findings from the survey

• Thirty-four percent of the young Americans knew that the island used on last season's "Survivor" show was located in the South Pacific, but only 30 percent could locate the state of New Jersey on a map. The "Survivor" show's location was the Marquesas Islands in the eastern South Pacific.

• When asked to find 10 specific states on a map of the United States, only California and Texas could be located by a large majority of those surveyed. Both states were correctly located by 89 percent of the participants. Only 51 percent could find New York, the nation's third most populous state.

• On a world map, Americans could find on average only seven of 16 countries in the quiz. Only 89 percent of the Americans surveyed could find their own country on the map.

• In the world map test, Swedes could find an average of 13 of the 16 countries. Germans and Italians were next, with an average of 12 each.

• Only 71 percent of the surveyed Americans could locate on the map the Pacific Ocean, the world's largest body of water. Worldwide, three in 10 of those surveyed could not correctly locate the Pacific Ocean.

• Although 81 percent of the surveyed Americans knew that the Middle East is the Earth's largest oil exporter, only 24 percent could find Saudi Arabia on the map.



http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/

[melody]

63. Ever checked the statistics on other nations?

1 in 5 Germans knew that Mexico was a North American country. Have you ever checked the scores in problem-solving and creative thinking in this country versus others?

I could rattle out a bunch of statistics, but there are very sound reasons for the things you state. For one thing, lack of knowledge in one area doesn't equal lack of knowledge in all areas. We definitely have problems in many areas, but then we are a huge nation with one Federal center when Germany is the size of one of our states.

As I said, if you feel the need to hate your own people, I find that sad, but I encourage you to do what you have to do. You'll find an equal number of "ignoramuses" eventually wherever you go, however. There will always be more than enough people who don't conform to your lofty standards. ;-)

[RagingInMiami]

67. Where did I say I hate my own country?

Every one of your posts comes across as a personal attack. I would like our country to be better, smarter, and more culturally and politically aware; but you obviously are content the way it is.

[melody]

74. Incendiary topics draw incendiary replies

Your posts have been incendiary, RiM. You can't expect to attack someone's entire culture and not receive flack in reply. If you did, you weren't being fair to the process.

You're damning us all as "ignoramuses" and moving on. To now state that you don't hate your own country strikes me as disingenuous. I don't know how much more hate someone could show to their own people than their complete abandonment.

You're not saying you want us to be better, smarter, and more culturally/politically aware - you're saying we're all losers and you're going to go hang with the cooler people. How do you improve something by abandoning it?

You know in your own heart what you mean. It seems to me you're making a contention and now backing away from it because it has been challenged. I'm not disagreeing with you personally, I'm disagreeing with your assertion. If you can't take having the tires kicked on your contentions, maybe you shouldn't post them in public?

This thread has now become a personal grudge match. There's no point in continuing it. These will serve as my last remarks - go on and make your own if you like.

Namaste and all that stuff.

[Karenina]

80. Tschüß!

:hi:

[RagingInMiami]

106. But it all sounds so familiar

I hate my country. I have lofty standards. Where have I heard that before?

Right before the 2004 election when Bush was accusing Kerry of hating his country because he threw his medals over the WH fence. When Bush was accusing Kerry of being a latte-drinking, Massachusetts liberal because of his lofty standards.

[melody]

107. well, you say all Americans are ignoramuses

How does this not amount to your hating your country and having "lofty standards"? If you're suggesting I'm a freeper (I saw Karenina's little troll thing), you might check my post count and the fact I'm a DU contributor. I also have been a liberal activist for longer than you've been alive I suspect.

That said, I love my country and my people. My field is ethnology and culture. I know how much we have contributed to the world. The reason I hate Bush and his band of thugs is that I value our nation. I know a lot of people on DU feel the same way. They are reluctant to voice support for our country because we tend to get shouted down by people calling us "freepers".

I'll be happy to point you toward my anti-Bush pages which have been up a long, long time.

[RagingInMiami]

108. I'm not suggesting you're a freeper

But I am trying to point out that you fall into the same talking points that they do when disputing your opinion.

[melody]

109. They're not blind talking points, they're personal convictions

That's a very different thing. And if blanketly criticizing the US in such an overt and egregious fashion = "liberal", then that merely plays into the RW's talking points. A frog and a toad look alike, but they aren't even remotely related.

I'm fighting for my country by fighting its takeover by the right-wing. Simple as that.

[Karenina]

111. Yes, the U.S. is above reproach

from your vantage point. How DARE anyone "generalize" Americans. From other quarters, Ami-land has well-earned the contempt in which some hold it. This from folks who been generalized, demonized and pulverized by the exportation of y'all's "culture."

European FAQ: How is it Rumsfeld's still employed? Gibt's doch nicht.

[melody]

127. Did you read my post or your own?

I'm going to try this one more time with you. What makes it wrong and irrational to generalize about any group of people makes it wrong and irrational to generalize about ANY group of people - Americans included. That's the structural logic that protects us all. You are using the same gross oversimplifications toward Americans that white racists use to hate everyone not white. You think other bigots don't have their own internal rationale for their own hatreds? They are every bit as wrong as you are and that is the sound, rational reason that they are wrong. The idiots who wrote "The Bell Curve" have the same psychology as any racist -- and into that group I would include anyone who dismisses all Americans. If you hate any person because of one aspect of their background, you're a bigot.

Lets try this - it's not "how dare you" - I frankly don't care what you do or say - it's "you can't be logically correct" and generalize about Americans.

Your crack at "y'all's" culture is an insult to rednecks, who are their own ethnic group. Jimmy Carter and his family are rednecks. Bill Clinton is a redneck. Al Gore is a redneck. See my point? No, of course you don't.

"Ami-land" the government has absolutely earned that contempt, but so would any powerful nation in the same situation. Alpha primates act in amazingly uniform ways. If you look back at the global dominance of any nation, you'll find the very same gross misconduct. And the US couldn't have done what it has done without the full cooperation of European government and major corporations. The European world is the problem - the problem is white people and our own loss of autochthonous definition that leads us to crush other people.

My culture? That stuff being exported isn't my culture. Its Yankonography. It's some mintage used to trade on open markets -- its a gross distortion of American culture whored by big business. Coca Cola began as an American corporation, but it's primarily internationally owned now.

Until we figure out this isn't some simple-minded, adolescent game of "us good guys" against "them bad guys", we're NEVER going to get beyond power politics and the real problem children will keep playing people like you who choose to focus all the problem on one group of people, as the bigots do against black people, et al.

>How is it Rumsfeld's still employed?

Because Bush allows him to be. Bush was shoved down our throats in a criminally corrupt sham "election". It was an election with which the powerplayers in Europe were silently complicit. And if you don't believe that, you haven't read the backwork.

[Karenina]

134. Melody, there is deadly serious "crisis of values"

occurring in the United States. It is negatively affecting people all around the globe INCLUDING YOURSELVES. "We're just like everyone else and DESERVE to be treated "fairly" and anyone who doesn't do so is simply a bigot and hates Amurikkka" DOES NOT WASH. Your gub'mint and *MIC treat NO ONE "fairly." See: New Orleans, only the most recently destroyed cultural gem and THIS TIME on your own shores.

No, you are NOT like everyone else. You are a small percentage of the world's population consuming a lion's share of the world's resources, wantonly destroying anyone and anything that gets in your way. It's not JUST *'s fault, nor is Europe's fault (lächerlich) it is AMERICANS who have bought into the corporate/PNAC manifesto and who have failed miserably to uphold the ideals of the enlightened document they were so fortunate to inherit.

The HYPOCRISY DOES NOT WASH.

[melody]

140. Hatred finding reasons

Karenina, either you're not understanding my posts or you're choosing not to read them. You sound like my father who saw Russia and Russians as the "great bogeyman" -- and he had lots of "reasons" that sounded valid until you started looking under them. Your bogeyman America is no more real than my father's "Evil Commies".

We're all humans -- we have the same problems. If you REALLY want to solve things and not just whitewash Europe, read a little about the structures behind world politics. There is no "one nation world power" any longer. All white men plot together.

As I've said to you before, if Americans are all evil and terrible monsters, why worry about those who died along the gulf coast? They were just Americans. From your pov, isn't the world better off without us?

On second thought, don't bother to answer that. You can't see what is really going on anymore than PNAC and those morons can. You only see what you want to see. The real world is grey, not black and white.

You just want to snipe at Evil Americans. If any American will do, help yourself to me. At this point, welcome once again -- and for all -- to my ignore list.

[Karenina]

143. Your inculcated

assumptions of superiority, white privilege to "define" any communication from "the other" and projections of what I may believe stand on their own merit for anyone carefully reading this thread to ponder.

I am an American alarmed and shamed by what I witness daily.

[Karenina]

146. Every point in your post above

is pure projection. YOU have decided what my position is, explained my pov, stated your superior understanding, and I guess I really needn't bother answering as perhaps this time you really will put me on ignore. I thought you had already done so with the earlier accusations and toss of your mane...
Bitte, Gott!

Meine Damen und Herren...
Exhibit B.

[GreenArrow]

112. actually

Frogs and toads are very closely related.

[melody]

126. That's an old hillbilly saying lol

My field is anthropology. I don't know from frogs and toads.

Lets try "cookies" and "the moon" instead.

[eridani]

100. Our students are reasonably good at problem-solving

One of my temp jobs 15 years ago involved tutoring nursing students who were having trouble keeping up with the curriculum. The Americans tended to need to get more disciplined at following study plans. Foreign students, particularly from Asia, had real trouble with questions requiring extrapolating from textbooks to actual problems. They came from a culture very heavily into rote learning, and that was a problem for them in the US university system.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. I believe it

When I taught Japanese, the first order of business was to show the students where Japan is on a world map and point out that it's a completely different country from China and has its own language and culture.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Not individuals, but our mass media in general promote the idea

that America is Number One and that we don't have anything to learn from anybody,

It is precisely the attitude that caused Ming Dynasty China to decline from being one of the world's most advanced civilizations to being a decayed backwater that was ripe for picking by European imperialists in the nineteenth century.

[AngryAmish]

70. Ming fell in 17th century

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_Dynasty>

Just being pedantic. Sorry.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. The Ming Dynasty fell in the 17th century to be succeeded by the Qing, but

it was their arrogance that weakened China first to be conquered by the Manchus and then carved up into "spheres of influence" by the Europeans.

[eridani]

101. Another example is the decline of science in Islamic cultures

Rigid religious doctrine replaced original thought, and it was all downhill from there. Scarily familiar, but we haven't deteriorated that much. Yet.

[Lorien]

86. Just out of curiosity; have you lived outside of the US?

Have you traveled extensively outside of the US? Can you really call someone a "bigot" if they arrive at their conclusions from an informed opinion?

If I say "I don't like country music, I'd rather listen to Jazz" it's a matter of personal taste-I'm not an ignorant bigot who "bashes" country music for the hell of it. Maybe I've listened extensively to both, but I simply prefer the later for a variety of reasons. Other countries have great artists and scientists (can you even NAME a great contemporary American artist? As a professional artist myself, I despair over the state of the American art scene today. My best friend is a world recognized physicist who says the same of state of the US science community). And you'd better believe that we all have "personal prejudices for what equals "good"" when it comes to our media; I don't like CSI, Lost, or Survivor; I prefer British comedies to contemporary American comedies ( I prefer the shows we produced decades ago to the current crop). That doesn't make me a "bigot", it makes me a person with different tastes than your own.

A kneejerk preference for all things American is, well, a bit bigoted.

[melody]

93. yes, I have

I've traveled extensively outside the US and have lived in Europe. I'm not calling anyone a bigot who isn't making a knee jerk assessment about 280 million people based on a small and stilted sampling. I don't know all Europeans. I don't know all Americans. I only know enough about the people I've met, and have studied sociology and psychology enough that I can see anyone making such a snap assessment is doing so on the basis of assumptions and personal prejudice. Now we all do that, of course, but to dismiss 280 million people as useless and subhuman because of the actions of a few? That's bigotry. I don't know what else to call it.

This individual wasn't stating a preference for one type of music, et al. OP of "Fuck It" (not c_j) made the crass remark that all Americans are "ignorant" and that half of us "voted for George Bush" - the first contention is impossible to prove (for all the reasons I've outlined) and the second is demonstrably false.

I can't name a "great artist" for you because I don't know what your preferences are, if you mean visual arts. I am a writer, so I can state that imho we have wonderful writers in my field - Robert Anton Wilson, the late Terence McKenna, Howard Zinn, Maria Tolliver, Alfa Aaron, and many, many others. As for your "world recognized physicist", that is his opinion and does not conform to the opinion of the people with whom I'm familiar.

My point is -- as I've made time and again -- we have as many gifted people as any other nation. These matters are relative to the individual culture. I'm basing my opinion on sociology and psychology, not on some effete wish to prove one group better than another.

I think CSI is sometimes a fine drama. I don't watch reality shows and have never watched "Lost". I think the scripts on many of our dramatic series are among the best written drama in the English language ("West Wing", for one example - looking to my DVD shelf for other suggestions, I could also name Northern Exposure as another fine series that was American). I like some British comedy - other British comedy I don't like. I have as varied a reaction to the artistic output of other cultures as I do to our own.

As for film, Francis Ford Coppola, Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino - these are all Americans.

Where do you infer a PREFERENCE for American anything in my remarks? I have a preference for things I enjoy and/or am drawn to -- I don't automatically exclude American culture because of some inherent bigotry toward it, which was my point.

[Karenina]

99. I also depair witnessing America's

cultural death. What's being produced, promulgated, distributed, consumed and exported as representing American "culture" is indeed a sad and frightening sight to behold.

The *misanthopistration has seriously interrupted the "free flow" of ideas and cultural exchange. I have colleagues who simply won't go there anymore, which is an alarming signal of the shift in perception .
Musicians, scientists, academics are routinely denied entry and Americans are being held hostage at home, banned from attending conventions and other functions.

The overly defensive reaction to criticism, crude or implied speaks for itself. Malcom X said it best...

"We live in a culture that makes us stupid, keeps us stupid, and gives us the arrogance to think that in our stupidity we are superior."

Of course the biggest irony is the sweeping generalizations that are so often applied to others become an OUTRAGE when the tables are turned.

[Selatius]

9. Unfortunately, I fear we're collectively becoming more "shallow and crass"

The consumerist lifestyle, thus our rate of consumption, is simply not sustainable as a culture and as an issue of environmental health. We are blasted apart, taught to fight each other for the resources, and taught to buy, buy, buy.

It used to be that to find happiness meant finding something you like. Nowadays, it seems that having all the luxuries of life is equated to happiness. People spend trying to try and match their dream or the lifestyle of the financial elite in this country, but all they find is a mountain of credit card debt and an empty life, and in the end, they become even more subjugated in front of the very people they idolized and wished to emulate.

[wake.up.america]

10. What does it take to turn it around? Or is capitalism dependent upon...

buying a plasma TV and upgrading the computer every six months?

Is necessary for CNN to discuss Simpson and her boyfriend? But then, people must be anxious to find out about such drivel or CNN would not air it. Ratings equate ad rates.



Quote from Selatius
"Unfortunately, I fear we're collectively becoming more "shallow and crass"

[Conservativesux]

11. Bread and circuces for the masses: Behold the new Rome!

Thats us alright !!!

[Selatius]

18. I'm not sure it can be changed in time

History shows nations go through life cycles much like any living creature. They are born. They grow, mature, decline, and eventually die. Even the greatest nations in history eventually succumbed to their own decadence and greed. The people may not want it, but it is not the people who make decisions. It is the ones who hold power regardless if they are elected or if they seize power by force or deceit. As Goering said, people can be manipulated into doing the bidding of their masters. "It is the same in any country."

Empires come and go, but people will always endure. It's the great irony of history that people have been subjected to so much brutal oppression, yet it is the people who ultimately hold the key to their own collective salvation. They just have not been made aware of that awesome power.

This country will fall, too, if history can be taken as a guide. Does this mean we should give up? That our fate has already been determined? I wouldn't say so. While certain patterns repeat, it's not true to say they repeat in exactly the same manner. If this country falls, it's not a problem. We will start over just as people had to do the day Rome finally burned to the ground. Let's hope, though, the dark ages won't last another 1000 years like last time.

As far as capitalism goes, this is natural. Money cannot be made if people do not buy. Encouraging them to continue to buy makes sense in an order where resources are allocated according to ability to pay. No money, no resources. All resources are owned. You need to pay the resource owners to get what you need. This is the understanding of our society. The only way it will change is if people decide it is no longer sustainable, and they simply stop what they've been doing up until now to try a new way of life.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Some people are fascinated by celebrity gossip, but others

have turned away from the mass media in disgust.

Sometimes I don't turn on the TV for days at a time.

[G_j]

15. this is why

I have always felt more like I belonged to a "counter-culture".
I've spent my life trying to resist and fight all the trends you speak of.

[JCMach1]

25. Culture isn't monolithic in the U.S. that's a good point

:)

You forget about that until you live somewhere else...

[Lorien]

85. What is your definition of American culture? n/t

[Hardrada]

12. Even so-called liberals I know

have to have the new urban sprawl houses and the best of everything. I think we don't have much culture left except in places the repugs tried to drown (New Orleans) or want to blow up (San Francisco).

[wake.up.america]

13. Well put! You said it! I mean can one really be a liberal ...

and at the same time, concentrate on the next Lexus?

[LiberalPartisan]

33. Zero - Zip - Nada

[RagingInMiami]

14. Levis jeans

They are a hit throughout the world. But I'm sure they're now made in China.

So I guess that means we only have Hollywood culture to offer to the world. That, and Fear Factor.

Sad.

[Fescue4u]

20. I dunno. Maybe we should ask the millions of immigrants

who sneak into our borders every year. I bet the throngs of legal immigrants might have an idea or so also.

Also, this Internet thing seems to be catching on outside our borders as well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Note that most of the immigrants these days are coming from

the poorest countries of the world, not from Western Europe or Japan.

The U.S. is a definite improvement over Somalia or Laos, which is where most of the immigrants who settle in Minneapolis come from these days.

[Golden Raisin]

21. Paris Hilton

Paris Hilton. I hear she's founded a Salon where all the great intellects of the United States meet regularly to discuss the state of American Culture. I hear there's a particular focus on the Fine Arts.

[Arugula Latte]

57. Yes, it's a new Algonquin Table. Such wit, such insight. n/t

[AngryAmish]

73. And she gives a great...

nevermind

[NuttyFluffers]

22. outside of the underground subcultures... nothing i can think of.

but then, it's been like this for a while. all the really cool underground subcultures of america have ended up rising up and out and taking over the world by storm. blues, jazz, rock, swing, disco, hip hop, etc. all the beatniks, psychadelics, bohemians, hippies, gangstas, grunge, etc. all, all, all either started here or got the "american seal of approval of cool."

something about the rawness, the energy, the violence, the frustration, the defiance about americana underground makes it just the cutting edge for at least the past few decades if not over a century now. the overlaying culture is as vapid and hollow as it has always been, but underneath there's always been this ... sexy, roiling, seething, mixed-up, tumultuous energy. there's been this glorious "fucky you!" to the universe at large; a dangerous, tenuous defiance in the face of a megalith of banality.

it's something about the dichotomy about the barbarous civilization on the veneer: the suburbs, the strip malls, the valley girl chic, the closed country clubs, where evil is so civilized, and utterly boring -- and the civil barbarians underneath: uncouth, unwashed, raw, poor, struggling, but willing to give it all for freedom, for a chance, for neighborliness, a downright overpowering sexual energy, an animal magnetism, of savage noblesse. something about the "thug/whore with a heart of gold" archetype that we americans embody so well that's just so infectious.

[clyrc]

23. Since I became an expat

I've been in the ludicrous position of trying to defend American culture. Ludicrous because I could ridicule it well enough while I was at home, but then I moved and found out what an American I really am. America does have a culture, and it isn't all bad. America is still a good country in many ways, in spite of the politicians. I'm not sorry to be an expat, in part because I can see my own country more clearly now, but I do miss the States and some of the freedoms I don't have because I don't live there anymore.

[Karenina]

83. I no longer defend American anything.

There's nothing to defend. The grotesque, deadly poisonous capitalist consumer culture America exports is spreading like a virulent cancer but will NEVER edge out the contributions of American idealists, thinkers and artists. THEY are more readily recognized here than at home by those to whom such pursuits matter.

It's BIG TIME about the citizens of the "land of the free and home of the brave" standing by as their *MIC commits atrocities in their names. What is America's cultural export these days? A poster on this thread will tell everyone how America is not to be held responsible, y'all are just "normal," your military courts will excuse the most egregious war crimes as frat pranks and the *crony corporations are making out like bandits on the misery they spread. What's not to like? What's to defend?

[JCMach1]

24. Living overseas for long periods of time and traveling is the best

way to gain perspective on America.

There has been great evil done by the Bush administration.

At the same time, there are aspects of American culture that you learn to appreciate.

American ideals and idealism are one important thing that is missing in most Asian countries (many of which are caught-up in the post-colonial hangover of race, class, and caste... THANKS BRITAIN!)

In fact some things are turned on their head. I used to be an anglo-phile from a very young age. Trips to Britain and a look at the post-colonial hangovers left by Britain has soured me on our British cousins (personal exceptions made of course).

Some observations I have made in recent years... some on DU:

1. People in the Middle-East are far more hip, educated, and cultured than anyone ever told you. Also, things are changing VERY rapidly in this part of the world (with, or without Bush).

2. Europe has a HUGE problem with racism. The problems in France are only going to get bigger.

3. Don't worry about India, or China ever achieving world domination. You will have to trust me on this one...

Excuse me now as I slip back into the hippest city in the world (Dubai-- according to FOX news anyway) and stare at the large foundation that will soon be the tallest building in the world.

[Don Claybrook]

59. r.e. observation #3

Do tell, why will neither China nor India achieve world domination? It looks especially like China is headed in this direction.

[AngryAmish]

76. China does not care for world domination

China is a profoundly racist culture. They have referred to themselves as "the middle kingdom" for millenia. As in they are in the middle of the world and everything else is peripheral. They do not care what happens other than in their sphere of influence.

Europeans went to China not the other way around.

[xchrom]

28. the responses are fascinating.

i've travelled around a bit -- and i'm a big fan of europe -- i have to disagree with jcmach's vison of france.
jcmach is certainly a fine thinker -- and a great duer.

but one thing that europe does actively, in a positive vein, is it invests in it's culture -- germany actively promotes german playwrites, authors, etc that write in german, france moves to identify what french culture is through film and some very frank television and art, england has always provided support for it's culture i.e. literary awards, nationally supported theatre etc.

and most of these countries do this without the same sense of decadent narcissism that seems to pervade today's american culture.

europe embraces culture at the fringe -- we cringe, fight kick and despise it until it is suddenly there one day whether we like it or not.

and then we could get into the whole unhealthy suspicion that americans have of it's intellectual elite.

american who love to espouse the ideas of hard work -- as long as it's not hard work spent learning, fighting dogmatic academia, hours spent in isolation thinking and creating original thought.

[Karenina]

31. Living outside of America

for extended periods (in circumstances where one is not surrounded by other Americans) provides a brand-new, state-of-the-art lens through which to view her. These days I much prefer making my observations and contributions from afar. The f**k it thread explains why better than I could. EGAD... Talk about "Amurikan exceptionalism" on parade... :puke:

France has already begun in earnest to tackle the dysfunction of its society recently on display. Unlike in the U.S., it's NORMAL to discuss politics with family, friends, neighbors, strangers, at home, in the cafe, on the streets, in the community center, sitting on a train... without the expectation of physical violence. Racism is being discussed openly and quite SERIOUSLY all over Europe. The topics don't get locked.

However, European society is also being dumbed down, infected by American "consumer culture". The mitigating factor is easy access to historical references, cultural artifacts and THE ARTS.

You make excellent points, Xchrom.

[kywildcat]

35. agreed. Though my qualifications

do not include living outside the US, I have worked for a French company in the states, lived with a Moroccan and married an Iranian.
Most of my adult life has been with people born and raised in other countries, including recruiting and managing them in various work settings.
I watch the malls and schools teaming with Americans. I've listen to them speak of spending the weekend in Wal-mart and the Mall and then the breakfast buffet on Sunday morning and they speak of this as if this is the best entertainment in the world.
I go to the symphony and notice the bulk of the crowd is over 60 or foreign born. The art museums are the same crowd.
Depressing......

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. That's the result of the dumbing down of our culture

Even during the Depression, schools had orchestras and choirs and art classes.

Now these things are "too expensive," but the football team gets its new playing field no matter what.

[kywildcat]

48. Yes, I am a product of music lessons

and big chalk sticks on school sidewalks, finger paints and Cat Stevens, Joni Mitchell, Jesus Christ Superstar, and Van Cliburn in the background.

The whole thing is too sad, to watch the decline happen so rapidly.

[kineneb]

60. unique view, from childhood on

First of all, "hi" kywildcat. My step-father is from Iran and I lived there a year in the 1970's (70-71 school year, Tehran American School). I spent the summer of 1977 traveling around Europe and staying with family friends and my pen pals in Germany. More recently, 2002, I made a study trip to Belgium to get info for my Master's thesis.

I love Europe and think that even with all of their political problems, the future is there, not here. They will always have their history to inform their decisions, something we do not have here. They have seen the results of religious wars up close and personal- the effects of the Thirty Years War cannot be erased. I wish I could move there.

I am afraid "American Culture" was never really all that great. There has always been a significant knuckle-dragger cohort here. If one looks at the events of the 19th century along with the religious and political movements, one can see that "Culture" has always had an uphill battle against ignorance and bigotry (often disguised as "exceptionalism").

...my personal opinion is that we got all those dissatisfied European pesants/criminals/religious nutcases who couldn't learn to get along in their home countries...now they are here and still can't get along with each other...my condolences to the indigenous peoples for inflicting our whackos on this continent...great-great grandpa was one of those cranks, too...sorry

[xchrom]

45. remember that calitalism was invented by the europeans

and they don't embrace it up and down the culture the same way americans do.

and whole heartedly agree with you regarding europeans and their discussions re:racism.
they take it very seriously -- they want integration within the context that they keep cultural indentity -- which is of course natural and right.
their desire for cultural identity is not mixed with the same myopic exceptionalism fervor we have here -- they've had too many wars caused by that stuff.

they simply want to embrace the same fears we have and deal with it openly, aggressively and intelligently.

[JCMach1]

50. I don't really even identify this media with American Culture anymore

It is all globalization now. All of the movies that are made now are made for a global audience.

Their cultures, and our indigenous cultures are being swallowed by that leviathon.

My God! The ad campaign for 'Desperate Housewives' here in the UAE...

I would have to say the ads were even more bawdy than the ones produced for U.S. consumption :puke:

[Dorian Gray]

36. I don't know...

It seems that here, in New York City, the fringe is embraced and promoted. I've seen some amazing play writes, some amazing artists, and some amazing musicians here. There are all sorts of city-wide festivals where their works are promoted.

I know the rest of the country is not New York City, but just traveling in this country, I've seen so much. I've lived in London and Hong Kong, and I've traveled throughout Asia and Europe. I don't see any particular difference between the cultures. There are haves and have nots everywhere. Capitalism is the driving force in China, struggling against the bonds of the "Communist" government. People want consumerism.

In Britain, none of the people I knew were in the upper classes. They all finished their O-Levels at 16 and got jobs. None of them had a better education than I had had by the time I was 16.

I went to both a public high school and a boarding school in the USA. There was a disparate education between the two schools. One was a lot more advanced than the other. We can find those differences within our own culture.

[alarimer]

44. Outside of major cities

like New york, Chicago, San Francisco, etc., there is not much in the way of culture. heck I live ina city that was voted one of the dumbest in the US (Corpus Christi). Some newspaper or magazine did that based on the number of degrees per capita. I agree; it is a stupid place. And just try findng someone to date, if you are working on a Master's and most people barely have a high school diploma. But that is a topic for another thread.

Outside of those major cities, the US IS a vast cultural wasteland, full of cooking cutter housing and big box stores. Some cumminities are finally getting it though, like the ones that are trying to fight Wal-Mart which I blame for the whole big box phenomenon.

[Don Claybrook]

61. Here's just one example of what you're talking about

I'm not claiming that movie viewing habits can conclusively tell us something about local culture, but it's interesting information to have.

http://www.netflix.com/LocalFavorites

The Netflix website lists top rentals by geographical locale. Of the top 25 movies rented in New York (presumably Manhattan), all of them are either foreign, independent, or vintage. There are no mainstream Hollywood releases on this list.

Conversely, I entered my own zip code. I see that Tribulation Force II and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre are big movers and shakers this week. But in the #1 slot is a 3-disc set called The Gospel of John. It's advertised as a word-for-word adaptation of the gospel of John turned into a movie. Incidentally, some of us in the red states have a deep, deep appreciation for Netflix (yes, the local Blockbusters stock the same sort of garbage listed above).

This just made an interesting side-note that fit in with your observations.

[alarimer]

95. I haven't done that for my area yet

I tend to watch all kinds of movies (well, except for those starring Tom Cruise, although I used to). But, judging from the fact that independent films never even make it here, i am sure the story is the sa me here.

[xchrom]

46. i travel to new york, london

and other places in europe with some frequency.

and what i find facsinating is that up and down the economic scale there is an incredible mixing of cultures.

in ireland for example -- their 2005 st patricks festival was marked by a young person of mixed african and irish heritage singing for the national event.

i went to four plays there recently -- all the major venues and every play had a gay or bisexual theme attached -- and every performance was packed -- in a culture noted for it's version machismo{whatever that is in ireland}.

london is one of the most exciting multiethnic cities around -- and having friends there now that are muslim and hindu -- they are glad to be english. and are aware of their contributions to english culture.

brits love their arts and sometimes racism will intitutionally rear it's ugly head -- but they freely talk about it and try very hard to deal with it.
as they have done at their museum of modern art.

of course we are similar -- but all in all i can't say that the folks i meet there have none of the same notion of exceptionalism that we have here.
they want to be smart, educated, intelligent about the future and they want to open up opportunity.

sure they want ''consumerism'' -- but not to the exclusion of just about everything else -- i.e. generally speaking brits and europeans don't carry the same heavy load of personal debt that we do here.
not that they don't have it -- but it is not at the same extreme level here.

[RagingInMiami]

53. I spent 18 months in Dublin and was very impressed with Ireland

In Ireland, you're allowed to live tax-free if you are an artist, which includes writing, music, acting, etc.

[JCMach1]

47. Don't get me wrong, I love many things about Europe

even if I found Britain to be a disappointment...

I was just shocked at the level of racism in Europe even as compared to the U.S.

Don't get me wrong about this either. The U.S. has had a horrible race problem and it continues to fester largely beneath the surface in Bush's AmeriKKKa. However, I think the U.S. has at least (to some extent) faced the problem. This has not happened yet in Europe (with the possible exception of outreach attempts by the Blair government). So, oddly enough, I think America does deserve a lot of credit on how it has dealt with the question of race and even class.

Or, maybe it was just living in a society (here in the UAE)where you come from large determines your class and social status (part of the colonial hangover.

I have great fun playing around with this. If I dress as a Westerner, I am immediately conspicuous (especially when shopping). However, I can disappear by shifting into traditional Pakistani clothing. I look enough like a Paki or Afghani tribesman that I can just DISAPPEAR! Suddenly, I don't exist.

[Karenina]

75. How has being able to "pass"

informed your understanding of white privilege? I'd love you to share your thoughts. Whenever I read your posts expressing alarm at rampant rabid racism in Europe, I wonder what lens you're peering through.

I be a AfroEuroAmi expat who has lived abroad for over a decade. Much prefer (;-)) the racism here to that I dealt with in America; it's poisonous edge made so much more insidious and vicious by the hypocrisy and denial. I find Europeans MUCH MORE OPEN than Americans to engaging the topic. The worst racism I have experienced in Europe has come from fellow Amis. Campaigns to educate the public about class and race issues are head, shoulders and waist above the post-MLK era back there.

This "I/other" human bit of stratifying by colouration is common currency in most cultures; hey, it's quick and easy. Even garnered a heavy dose of spiritual justification in India, being so effective in structuring and controlling society. It is the very antithesis of "all wo/men are created equal" which is the source of my "issues" with the land of my birth...

[Deja Q]

32. Well, our 'culture' has Britney Spears... which sums it up nicely:

False ideals.
False talent.
False love for her offspring (when baby grows up and finds out mommy was pissing about over how pregnancy was such a choooooore...)
Instant gratification (corporate values down to fast food.)
People want everything but don't want to pay the price or get involved.
Money over art.
Money over culture.

THAT is what Britt-brat personifies. And she represents America far more visibly than all of the working class Americans combined.

[G_j]

34. money over....everything

and that is not simply a choice of values for the poor. Without it one could easily freeze to death the on the streets.

[Karenina]

43. The definitions of wealth, status and worth

by the accummulation of stuff and money has largely destroyed American culture and seriously threatens what remains.

NO ONE need freeze to death on the street in the U.S. NO ONE.

[raccoon]

138. Great post. nt

[JCMach1]

51. Most of all 'American Idealism'

The culture of having ideals and trying to meet them (like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights). Especially here in Asia, ideals are swept away by the moment, money, and necessity (and yes, corruption).

Even if the word Democracy sounds a a hollow synonym for Global Imperialism in the mouth of someone like W., we live in a great country where this is still an idea and an ideal.

And, we still believe in such things!!!!

We would be here at DU if that were not true...

[Telly Savalas]

92. It struck me when Rosa Parks died...

what it says about our nation that she was revered as a hero. Even our opponents on the Right honored her. (While the policies they advocate may be a perversion of her vision, most of them still recognize her greatness.)

I don't really think the fact America has ideals makes us unique, since so many other countries do. However, I think it's an important point to make in a thread that's drowning in smug cynicism.

We'd be able to get a lot more people on board the progressive movement if we tried to appeal to these ideals and tap into the core decency of Americans rather than chastising them for buying too many fucking Brittney Spears CD's.

[Igel]

54. Here are some aspects of our culture.

That you should try hard and not blame others for problems that are plausibly your own. If you don't have a large house, first and foremost consider what you've done; blame others second. If somebody else has a large house, look first at what they've done that's legal, and don't assume crime must underlie their prosperity.

That dignity and honor come from your actions, and whether or not they comport with beliefs that are honorable: we do not view honor as a public 'good' that depends upon others to bestow upon us, and my dignity and honor do not depend either on how others treat me, nor on my reducing some other person's.

By and large, one should be left alone to do as one wants, and to enjoy one's earnings and goods in peace. There are exceptions on all sides (except possibly the libertarian side), but they are usually exaggerated.

One is free to believe whatever one wants. One is also free to say it; one is, likewise, free to suffer the consequences of exercising that freedom.

We tend to like about 24 inches between us when we're talking to others.

We frown severely upon some behaviors: peer pressure enforces what laws cannot. Corruption is, in most US cultural systems, bad.

We shake hands upon being introduced. Honorifics are not used after the first few minutes unless there's a clear power/prestige relationship, or we want to butter up our interlocutor.

We drive on the right hand side of the road, stop (mostly) at stop signs and red lights. We don't frown upon speeding, as long as it's not excessive or overly reckless.

We leave tips at restaurants. We expect soft drinks and water to have ice in them; we do not expect our white wine and beer to need ice.

[stepnw1f]

58. We Are The New Culture

and We are going to change this shit hole...

[Karenina]

114. Go for it!

[WHAT]

62. I wish people would use more math and less media...

in evaluating culture.

My hunch (personal experience) is that people are much more savy than anyone gives them credit for being.. Of the above posts, I generally agree with Melody in that I perceive culture not confined as awards, media definitions, platitudes excuses and accustions...but how ordinary people live their lives. The elections are representative of this in that the results don't correlate with the math. My hunch (again) is that if something doesn't work it is disregarded and right now there is a general disregard of "corporate" media, awards, distinctions, validations...So, the validation of a perspective is not in the presentation but in the actuality. Are people buying more or less? seeking answers or accepting explanations? willingly exploiting the social weakness of others or seeking common ground?

I think social darwinism falls under this category because I see the same problems in terms of interpretation there. For example, if social dominance is the criteria for interpreting "good genes" then how about birth rates? I think the european paradigm has more dominance but less replacement value (birth rates). So, does one culture emphasize survival of the individual or survival of the group in that one has a higher life expectancy and fewer children and other has a lower life expectancy but higher birth rate?

I don't know about this stuff but I wish it would be discussed differently if for no other reason than consistency. I think in a hundred years the world will be a lot different and people will be recognized as having more in common than not.

[Cleita]

64. The fact that people risk their lives daily to come here

for a better job and a better life should explain one of the reasons.

[Karenina]

79. Believing the myth

and getting trounced these days as are Americans themselves...

[WilliamPitt]

77. Jazz, blues, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Robert Penn Warren, Langston Hughes

etc.

[CanSocDem]

78. hot rods, blue jeans and red-eye gravy....

mmmmm....biscuts!!

[Spider Jerusalem]

90. That's "present-day American culture" how, exactly?

None of those is what you could call contemporary.

[Lorien]

91. Exactly. We are no longer the Nation that produced those luminaries

we aren't even the nation of my youth. When I think of American culture today, the first thing that comes to mind is consumerism. The second thing that comes to mind is violence. The third thing that comes to mind is our media...it wasn't supposed to be this way. What will it take to return us to the nation of ideas, innovation, artistic and academic excellence? When I was a child, my parents marched for civil rights and the protection of the environment; we had great dreams of a future in which all were equal and the earth was healed. Now most American dreams seem to include a McMansion and a giant plasma TV, and the planet it swiftly dying-no one marches to save it anymore. How did we get here, and where are we headed?

[Telly Savalas]

94. So McMansions have replaced Levittown. Big deal.

If we cherry pick the worst elements of the present and hold them against the best of the past, then things are bound to look pretty bleak.

Is it really that tragic that crap like "Survivor" can't compete with the intellectual nuance of past televsion like "Laugh-In" or the "Howdy-Doody Show"? That today's flavor-of-the month boy band can't match the sophistication and emotional depth of the Monkees or the Andrews Sisters?

Should we be upset that we no longer spray our crops with DDT today?

Is it sad that black people no longer have to sit in the back of the bus?

When's the last time the House Unamerican Activities committee met?

When the CIA under the Eisenhower Administration was conducting its own independent covert foreign policy, was there an online community of 80,000 people discussing its implications? Or were people stuck having to place their blind trust in the media?

Our culture has always been centred around personal material improvement. 150 years ago the most expedient method of doing this was to move out west and try to build your own castle. Today it means taking the credit card to Best Buy.

Our culture has also always been very violent. To claim that our society is at its most violent today is to willfully ignore a few centuries of history.

No doubt our nation has some really serious problems, but this has been the case at any given point in time.

[raccoon]

139. You made some good points. nt

[KoKo]

96. And, Scotty Fitzgerald saw alot of that coming.....

His life was in a way what America has become. :-(

[WilliamPitt]

98. It is in my classroom

[Odin2005]

81. I think America's big problem is...

That we have not been a frontier nation for a century, but the people with wealth used ideals that were necessary when our nation was young ("rugged individualism" was necessary on the frontier, but it just leads to social Darwinism in todays world), to prevent reform. Our country in our early days did not need a social safety net because the frontier WAS the social safety net. Now all that is long gone. If we want to stop our nations decline we must get over our consemerist culture and our obsession with "rugged individualism" that lets conservatives cut social programs by "Welfare Queen" BS. We must become more comunity-oriented, quit blamming individuals for what is a problem of society (which is what conservatives like to do a lot, blame the victim of having some moral deficit, not cure the societal problem that caused it).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. Very astute comment

:thumbsup:

[LeftHander]

137. Totally excellent comment I agree below...

I exapnd on that.

I've been drafting The New American Manifesto that you will be interested in.

In additon to rugged individualism our culture is wrapped around a oil fueled consumer based economy. That must come to an end.

there will be a "Post Oil Dependency America" sooner than we think and we all have to start visulaizing the steps to get there.

[Karenina]

149. While you're formulating your draft

DO be sure to check out Andrew Jackson's "philosophies" and sphere's of influence. It gets quite interesting.

[LWolf]

82. No.

It's painful for me to say that. It's a painful response. You are asking what our culture has to offer that is positive, and when I think on our culture, nothing positive comes to mind.

When I look for positives, I look for individuals. There are shining examples of empathy, integrity, action, respect, and responsibility all around me, in one individual at a time.

Those things that I value exist in spite of, not as a product of, American culture.

Another positive: if every individual chooses to "be" the culture they would like to see, rather than succumbing to societal pressure around them, we can move that culture in a positive direction. One individual at a time.

Perhaps by focusing on those universal values, instead of on more traditional party, economic, class, ethnic, religious, etc. lines, we can break the destructive cycle we find ourselves in and move forward.

[Karenina]

84. It's very late in the day

and the ice caps are melting.

[G_j]

102. against the grain

yes, it is more like individuals who are going against the grain, the voices in the wilderness, are the ones who embody those universal humanitarians values.

There are plenty of compassionate, awesome, wonderful people, but as a rule they are not the ones held up and emulated.

[triguy46]

89. By "culture," why did I think of the arts?

And my answer would have been reality TV and music videos. A vast wasteland, for sure.

[zippy890]

103. the most wonderful selection of gourmet junk foods

really,

from organic mesquite flavored russet potato chips to all-natural white cheddar corn puffs, the snack food aisle at the supermarket is just amazing.

my favorite: Garden of Eaten organic 'Red Hot Blues' - spicy corn chips from blue corn. Yum, deliciously spicy without that chemical aftertaste you get from, say Doritos.

;-)

[Bridget Burke]

104. How do you define "culture"?

"High" culture? Here in Houston we have the "big-time" cultural institutions: Symphony, Ballet, Opera, Theater. Our Museum of Fine Arts added two new buildings a couple of years ago. The Menil Collection is a small museum with a gem-like collection.

We've got plenty of smaller, "fringier" arts groups, as well. And our city is pretty multicultural. Check this out: www.houstonculture.org/

In non-artistic culture--it's a fight. But it's always been a fight.

There is still more to the country than Reality TV & WalMart--for those who wish to look.

[G_j]

105. good question

the OP was quickly written and could have been better formulated.
Thinking about aspects of "culture" and what it means, there are many multi-cultural aspects to our society and posters have mentioned "sub-cultures" and the concept of "counter-culture". "Culture" is a complex concept.

Is "American culture" what we see on TV and movies, in the box stores, in SUV sales? I am still thinking about all this. :-)

[Karenina]

110. It is indeed a complex topic.

My greatest concern is what's being touted and exported as "American culture" is having profoundly negative effects on everything it touches.

I cannot tell you the horror I felt leaving the train station in Vienna to be confronted by McDonald's. Granted, it was the most elegantly decorated one I'd ever seen but it emitted the same foul odor of garbage masquerading as food.

In Europe, particularly among the young, All-things-Ami are defined by the corporate media. I constantly remind them, as they tell me their perceptions, that the film they reference was just a film and that the sheer size of the country defies generalizations.

However, what I witnessed driving across the country 3 times in my youth (once in 72 hours :evilgrin:) was the rampant destruction of the mom&pop shops, diners and stopovers which were the windows through which one could get a glimpse of the country's soul. When I lived in L.A. some dipshits even wanted to demolish the Wiltern Theater.
Feet meet street. We who care about such things prevailed. It is an awesome art-deco display.

http://www.thewiltern.com/history.aspx

When I think of Amis and "culture" Native Americans, Mexicans, Iraq and New Orleans spring to mind...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5465190#5466458

[G_j]

115. and what seems to come across

is so very shallow

There are real and vibrant sub-cultures here, but unless there is a way to capitalize on them, the 'dominant culture' pays them no mind.

I found it very telling that historically Europeans have paid more attention to Native American rights and issues than we have.
Blues and jazz also found a warmer welcome abroad.
Here, if it ain't a cash cow $$$, it's not worth really paying attention to.

[Clara T]

120. Um well

The most cruise missiles?
The most indoor mega-coliseums?
The most insular and incurious populace?


A few things to note; as donor nations go the US is dead last in contributions as a percent of GDP; the architecture in the US is for the most part horrifyingly grotesque and mechanistic.

One could go on.

A disturbing obsession with needing to be "#1"?

[Dunedain]

116. Damn right there is

here in little ole' Mankato Minnesota, I'm bringing poetry slams to the farmers. Kinda neat to see the margey's drink latte's and blush at the bush jokes.

[AnnieBW]

113. Science Fiction!

Star Trek is the best of what Human beings could be. Babylon 5, Farscape, Lost, Stargate: Atlantis, Stargate SG-1, etc. show what happens when we work together with others to accomplish our goals. And Battlestar Galactica shows what happens when we don't.

Then again, the Brits do much better with Doctor Who...

[Nevernose]

117. We only have those because they're successful in Europe

It would be more accurate to term Stargate(s), Farscape, Battlestar Galactica, as British or European.

We still have books, though, of all kinds. The publishing industry is bigger than ever.

[sweetheart]

118. A failed experiment

What you complain about is almost a lack of common sense, as if a population
has willingly taken leave of sensibility, and this coddled in to a life
where other people think for you, where other people pay you to incubate
their dreams in your mind, hollowing out the already stressed sensitive
wise person, driving goodwill off the common for a thuggism, deeply
brownshirtish, deeply disconcerting, as the rise of this thuggery is the
bane of civilized society and i fear it is a failed experiment,
political america.

Had there never been a constitution, and people argued daily for a
consensus of common sense and rights, (common law), likely the culture
would retain the sense of decorum that can sustain a civilization.

Rather this is pocketed in islands of wealth, influence and power,
the neo-plantations of our lives, where corporate workers intermarry
in to a hindu caste of corporate persons appropriate for their
intelligence, and if there be any love, it couched inside a religious
organization or relationship, the love and civil common of the
society is fractured, and maybe, as the whole experiment has given over
to championing corporate rights over human rights, waging aggressive
war, breaking every barrrier in a race to discount social investment,
to thieve the common and vandalize it, as a new model of republican
government where a new police state is empowered to shake down every
person in the world, make them quake in fear... or this paradigm of
fear, seemingly all encompassing in parts of the earth. Yet in
other parts, divine points of light. And this battle of evil
requires great warriors, people capable of transcending their own
fears of a deviant and dangerous cell of terrorists haboured inside
the republican and christian right.

And i think the lesson is that a society should keep with common law,
and develop a culture of precedent and common sense that allow the
culture to evolve past the rigid past of the 18th century, and the
institutions of the time (slavery)... as if the US will forever be
bound up in its birth, the conundrum of slavery, until the constitution
is unbound... and on bad days, it brings the world more slavery, like
these bush days, way too much slavery, so bad, that radical resistance
is arguably called for. But fortunately public opinion has finally
showed up in its incredibly slow tide to realize that bush is and
always was incompetent, deviant, and cooperating with a conspiracy
to defraud the american people, all in a bid to rule the world as
their ultimate white racist patriarchal utopia.

And well, like we all fikkin know, that it sucks to live in a failed
experiment, unless you are rich or lucky, it can be downright
upsetting, like daily wondering if the cynicism is real, if anyone
is there behind all the false pretense and judgements, hiding afraid
as a new basis of culture, sunglasses because people are deviant and
insane, living in alternate realities of television shows, football
teams, childrens sporting events, and after raving about their
pasttimes, tiresome, not noble, not enlightenment, but base
genetic reproduction of species, replaid like a taperecorder across
1000's of years... except the world getting radically more populated
and some nations reaching a critical dimensional mass, where the
culture shifts to postmodern, no longer cohesive in any way, where
winner take all selfishness is the only remaining core value of
a failed experiment.

Taking a corrupt failed experiment, and converting it in to a wiser
and more progressive one, take only the will and the realization
that it is failed. Ahhh, but the ego unwillingness to admit that
despite all the patriotic feelings, it is right for the corporate
criminal states of the global planation empire to walk off in to
the sunset with their cardboard cowboys and their bibles.

[DavidBowman]

119. Yeah, let's ditch the constitution

Not. This isn't a failed experiment. Yours is failed analysis.

[sweetheart]

123. Yes its failed

A system of government that is entirely corrupt, that has decieved its
population whilst supporting a global imperial corporate adgenda to
achieve global military and economic dominance over the planet... and
during this bush reign, the entire post ww2 consensus of benign
hegemony has been deliberately trashed by infantile fools, and this
is not recovered.

For the hundreds of thousands of persons rotting in prison for doing
or trading in drugs, the experiment has failed.

Bottom line, the US has worse civil rights and living standards than
more modern democracies, a sign of failure. The entire world has
changed the softpower plate dynamics, so simply re-electing a democratic
administration won't fix this either... bush has treated history
as if we're back before world war 1, with nations forming bilateral
aggreements, yet by this very mechanism of the bilateral defense
system, was the world war 1 largely caused by.

A nation that does not wage aggressive war, and not charge criminals
who do so, has lost its sense, failed. The institution has failed, not
the people, not the consensus. Most people are so ignorant, like
people in the bush administration, they think the constituiton is
the pledge of allegiance... liberty and justice for all.

So, in fact, it depends on what you mean failed. That the experiment
would always provide its citizens with the best civil society of
rights and the rule of law.. failed... education system... failed...
mass media... failed... But if success was what the white slave
owning landowners wanted, that 200 years hence, white men would still
be in charge championing the needs of the rich over a disenfranchised
largely poor urban ethnic underclass.

The constitution is ancient. The bill of rights is paltry next to
the universal declaration of human rights of elanor roosevelt. All
modern nations in europe have adopted a much more sophistocated
bill of rights. Social mobility, the rags-to-riches dream, is less
in the US than other western nations. The dynamic experiment has
met middle age, and no longer can athens count on having an army
underclass of disenfranchised slaves to power their democracy, and
similarly, the US is presented today with a world without a consensus,
a volatile situation that could well find a new consensus after the
next world war.... and thanks for bush and his failure boys for
setting up the conditions for that... pray it never transpires.

We can come to a better, more democratic agreement than the
constitution, one that has all persons equal rights... so i've fully
ready to shread the old failed model, and discuss a new consensus,
since the republcians have shit all over the thing anyways, why not
establish a new system of government that actually answers to the
poeple instead of the corporate money.

[DavidBowman]

124. Bull

Your post is so full of shit, especially in regards to the state of the US versus other western countries, that I don't think I can counter it to your satisfaction. Carry on.

[sweetheart]

129. Yea, you would know

How many countries have you been to? Do you realize that the popular
opinion is very strongly weighted against americana in most european
nations? There is a fair stash of evidence.

You can't counter it, because you can't explain yourself. Its ok, just
i don't take slovenly critique from people who can't explain themselves
at all, who just trash things. You behave like a vandal, and indeed,
it is not to any decent satisfaction.

WHAT offends you in the post... it your nationalism offended? and the response is primal emotion.. "that's full of shit".
Rebuttal without reason, righteous indignation and TV-show chatroom
diss lines. That people are so cynical, that they can only whisper
"full of shit", and not make a point themselves, is a sign of
social failure... that civil discourse is on the out, and
"full of shit". :-)

Gewarge boowsh is the god almighty, ahmen!, and thou shall not question
or be called "full of shit" as well. You can't make a point sir,
and i respect that the piece may be difficult to rebut,
but don't write for yourself like this is a telephone call, rather
write to win over the 3rd party reader to considering new points
of view. Win over people by cutting to the chase.

It is right that the american experiment decline, that the global
empire become multipolar, and for an amiercan, this will seem like
a decline and a collapse, very humiliating all this democracy talk,
the center of society is th individual citizen, the living mind,
living organizm, not some dead set of documents signed by some
slave owners. There was decline before the french revolution,
and the collapse of a load of global empires in the last century
shows its a non-event, a few peripheral wars, and much harder times
for the home country, often bringing in heavy socialism as the costs
of the wars to defend the empire become so great, that the common
folk demand franchise in what they fight for.

[G_j]

130. thank you for your input

Pushed some buttons I see. :-)

I personally always like to hear your take on things. You think for yourself and you take the time to carefully explain your viewpoint.
I appreciate that you always give me something to think about.


Nationalism is like those "power of pride" bumper stickers.
It is really based in nothing but emotion and ego.

[Swamp Rat]

121. Death and destruction

It's our national export and pastime.

[Karenina]

128. It's also domestic policy...

:hug::cry::hug:

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

122. Sure, I guess...

First, I must get past the realization that, despite all the murder and mayhem and stripping of resources America has perpetrated abroad for 2 centuries, individual Americans can be really, like, nice, you know, love God, kindly overlook the beggars on the boulevard, and will sleep well at night even if they need to fill the SUV tank with blood in the morning.

At what price, whatever passes for culture here, these days?

[Hardrada]

125. The price, I think, is way way

too high. We have well dressed people going to symphony orchestra concerts and tony art exhibits and in total ignorance of all the war and violence and torture perpetrated by their own government. Even high culture becomes meaningless and degraded UNLESS we can take it over and use it for consciousness-raising and for revolutionary purposes. Art exists to show an alternate reality anyway.

[freestyle]

133. Plenty of art, music, literature, design. Is this a serious question?

I am plenty pissed off at lots of things that are going on in my country, but I will not discard all that is produced.

Do you ever watch Jazz from Lincoln Center? Have you seen August Wilson's plays and do you know he completed the cycle before he died. Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater, Bill Jones, Twyla Tharp, Paul Taylor are all doing cutting edge dance expression right now. Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, many excellent writers. Frank Gehry, the new National Museum of the American Indian, and other design triumphs. Poetry slams, underground hip-hop, much of international youth culture has a distinctly urban American flavor. This country is still filled with very vibrant, creative, and intelligent people who contribute plenty to culture. You do have to know where to look.

[Karenina]

141. The POINT is, they are those who by

hook or crook were able to scramble over die Mauer...

There is no disputing American creativity! It's die Mauer that concerns me. Woher kommt das?

[WHAT]

154. I generally agree with you...

for example I recently downloaded about 25 different versions of Silent Night. Each one is distinct and all but one (I think) is uniquely American. So all are representative even though they're each different. There is jazz, symphony, folk, pop, soul, metal...Gene Autrey to Barbara Striesand and everything in between. The media can't define the culture because it expands naturally past their script.

[Loonman]

135. Then move fer chrissakes

I hate these kind of posts. Either stay and resist the Bush bastards to your last breath and ounce of strength or get the fuck out.

Talk is cheap.

[Karenina]

142. There are many ways

to enhance one's understanding and resist fascist Amurikkka that don't involve LIVING THERE amongst those who would aggressively proclaim, "Love it or leave it."

[G_j]

144. LOL

and I thought I asked some reasonable questions in non inflammatory way...silly me

>>>>>>FU2

[LeftHander]

136. The Arts are not culture....that is global....

The Arts are vastly similar around the globe.

the visula and performing arts all retain a certain degree of nationality but they all share the same activities and goals.


What we are talking about is culture like:

How we treat women.

How women see themselves.

How men see themsselves in society.

How we entertain ourselves and interact in a community.

What role does religion and the media play in forming those ineractions.

What role does commerce play.

How do preserve aspects of our cultural identity through time.

Looking at America and comparing it to the rest of the world the differences begin to merge as do many similarities.

One of the most pervasive aspect of our culture is the blatant selfishness we exhibit. We are "takers" for the most part not producers. We are taking the world's resources for our own and leaving nothgin behind. Our "culture" of consumerism and the quest of personal wealth we call the "American Dream" is purpetuated by our media centric view of our own culture.

Years ago WE let Television and Advertising tell us what our culture is. rather than letting it simply reflect that culture. Television, radion and print media and specifically advertising and marketing are the creators fo culture.

that is why we have so many "sub" cultures. People refuse to participate in the mainstream culture because it is a fraud. A marketing and advertising fraud. It is false....a...lie. Just a television is not really REAL....

Those who find themselves not participating in the fraud advertising culture are cast aside byt the vast majority of Americans who cannot see the true culture around them. The majority live in a Strip Mall Heaven...

"seated on the couch, drooling at the screen....bikini wax drips and tears out the hair..."

Our "culture" is a cancer on the world. Our Oil Dependent culture is a dead-end.

get ready to start thinking about a "post oil dependent America" it is going to happen in our lifetime...whether we want it to or not.

We are going to hear this term more an more.

"Post Oil Dependency"

Our current corporate media and consumer based culture has no future.

[xchrom]

145. thank you left hander.

i think your list is also definitive about what i ''find'' in europe.

there's something very much in the ''past tense'' here.

there's something about the christian right today that is more than fear of modernity.

the american enterprise group is more than a conservative cheerleading crew.

it's to express the kind of nihilism that economic conservatives and social conservatives represent -- but as i write this i suddenly feel like corporatism is no longer accurate.

and your ''post oil dependency'' phrase -- that in the 70's would have been hopeful -- is a good deal less so right now.

[KoKo]

147. These days our American Culture seems to spend more time "Abroad"

than at home. As if we are all too fat and lazy and full of Walmart and "Fast Food" to really be aware of the erosion of our freedoms and our failure of our Government to take care of ordinary American CITIZENS needs right here with Education, Health Care and Jobs.

So...I have to say that "American Culture" is dead for the future as a big export commodity that will influence anything.

Yeah...It's DEAD...

[Karenina]

148. It's not DEAD yet, Koko01

it just smells nassy sometimes. Joe Lovano was at the Philharmonie Saturday with the Big Band AND the Rundfunk Orchester as back-up. The hall was packed with folks who appreciate Americans' individual expressions of their culture and heritage.

[KoKo]

150. Karenina....I so long for when America get's back to "Creative Roots"

that I loved your post. I don't see it yet here in my Fundie Red State where "Culture" is left to the Universities like Duke or UNC and we can go to Concerts and Plays, etc.

BUT...when I go...I only see "University folks" whom one would expect to see...I DON'T see CULTURE that has MASS APPEAL. But then.........I'm not an "immigrant" who might have a totally different view of thriving Latino Culture here in North Carolina given that we have the hugest influx of Latino's in all the states (at least from what I've seen of NC statistics) so that what NEW CULTURE there is is going on far away from me and my lifestyle.

If I lived in the Northeast or the West...my view might be what you say.

I miss Culture...and Fairs and Bake Sales and all the stuff that America thrived on.....way back in the past. when folks didn't depend of Abramoffs or Christian Coalition for Government Funding for what they needed to raise for "ordinary" folks.:shrug:

[realisticphish]

151. "Back in the good ol' days...."

we seem to be focused so much on reality tv and walmart that we forget that we are on the inside looking in. A culture simply cannot analyze itself.

When we look at past cultures (or ages of american culture), we look at the things that last. We remember the great people, the great artists, the great songs, the great movies. What we DON'T remember is all the crap that those gems were pulled out of (watch a few episodes of mystery science theater, if you don't believe that). Yeah, there's walmart and britney spears. But saying that that is like saying that the 20's were only about prohibition and organized crime, and the 50's were only represented by Bert I. Gordon and Joseph McCarthy.

There is a LOT that we have done wrong, and are doing wrong. But you know what? We've done a lot right.

[Taxloss]

152. Some of the finest comedy in the world.

The Simpsons. Curb your Enthusiasm. The Daily Show. South Park. Family Guy. Even stuff like Malcolm in the Middle and Scrubs is good. Comedy on both sides of the Atlantic is a lot smarter than it used to be. (The best stuff, anyway.) And you still make some fine drama - the West Wing, Lost, CSI ... this is all good. And, I think, it all manifests progressive values. (Apart from South Park, which manifests no values, part of its enduring appeal.)

[Clara T]

153. We've been too long American Dreaming

I need my conscience to keep watch over me
To protect me from myself
So I can wear honesty like a crown on my head
When I walk into the promised land
We've been too long American dreaming
And I think we've all lost the way
Forlorn somnambulistic maniacal in the dark
I'm in love with an American girl
Though she's my best friend
I love her surreptitious smile
That hides the pain within her
And we'll go dancing in the rings of laughter
And live along by the shores
???
Yeah-ee, on the lea the rising wind blows
Fay-hee, on the lea the rising wind blows
How long how long?
??? in the grounds of ??? we've left behind
Turned back by the foot of the doorway
Never lost and found
We've been too long American dreaming
I think we've all lost the heart
??? somnambulistic maniacal in the dark
Yeah-ee, on the lea the rising wind blows
Fay-hee, on the lea the rising wind blows
How long how long?
- Dead Can Dance

[SmokingJacket]

155. America still produces great culture; it just gets no attention.

Marvelous books are being written and published all the time, though they get elbowed off the best seller list by tripe. Every city has an independent music scene that's full of innovation. Jazz is still a living thing in many cities. I think America makes most of the world's best movies -- also the world's worst! -- but I'm cheered by the rise of independent movies over the last ten years or so.

And we still have incredible scientists, though certainly we don't have a lock in that area, and other countries are challenging our scientific dominance. Many of the world's best minds still flock to our universities. I live in a university town and love seeing the multitude of nationalities represented here and knowing that great work is going on just up the street.

It's easy to see nothing but Britney, chick lit, Bushco, and other forms of idiocy all day long... but America is more than its TV culture.

[Dances with Cats]

156. Porn, Porn, tons of Porn and its FREEEE! Wheee!

ahem* n/t

[Karenina]

157. Just for days old fun

:kick: