shit. contractor trophy video of civilians being shot at in Iraq

[Fleshdancer]

this site has a video of it:

http://bareknucklepolitics.com/?p=345

I don't know if this has been posted yet. I looked on GD but didn't see it. I don't know what to say to this.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Jeeezus frigging Christ......... put this MFer on the news and ask the

asshole fundies if we are better off now that Saddam is not writing GD romance novels any longer. OMFG.

[FreedomAngel82]

4. They probably wouldn't care

They'd claim "it's a terrorist" or something like that. That's how they think of the Iraqi's now even though they're the one's defending their country to get us out of there. *sigh* I couldn't watch the video though.

[AntiCoup2K4]

29. They would be right. It IS terrorists!

Problem is these fucking terrorist are "Americans" (or more accurately traitorous pieces of shit).

And let's not forget these type of shitbags were dceployed to New Orleans as well, so one day you may see them walking down your street.

[caelestissurf]

9. I'm sure this will be unpopular

But we know next to nothing about the nature of the video. In what I'm sure will label me a freeptard, I'm not going to jump to conclusions about why they were shooting.

Having spent a year in Iraq and been in too many convoys to remember myself, we shot at vehicles that got too close to us all the time. WHY? Because it's a popular trick for insurgents to use a vehicle as a VBIED, and the ubiquitous white and orange taxicabs are the most prevelant kind. If it's proven these guys shot for the hell of it, fry them any way we can, if not, I'm not going to judge someone that did something I did when I thought my life was in danger.

P.S. Not that it matters, but the voices on the video are british, the radio voice sounds American, but the vehicle voices sound Brit.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. Point well taken and welcome to DU. Sorry to hear you had to

experience such madness.

[caelestissurf]

12. IWell to be honest

It's less madness and more confusion. I don't believe in the Chimperor, I never bought the WMD crap and I think we have made mistakes, but I'm not ashamed of what I did over there. I'm proud to have served and I know I made some Iraqis lives better. not many, but enough to matter.

P.S. Immediate withdrawal would be the disaster of our lifetimes.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

13. Sorry to say that I can see that is a truism... sorry to say.

[Skip Intro]

40. Why would immediate withdrawl be the disaster of our lifetimes?

And do you equate immediate withdrawl to orderly redeployment over the horizon?

If you don't mind me asking.

[caelestissurf]

43. Redeployment over the horizion is

something I don't understand. Withdrawal completely and give up all bases so that if we have to we must fight our way back ino the country? That's insanity and one reason I don't like the Murtha plan.

as for withdrawal, if we do it soon, we will spark a regional war that will make our actions look like child's play. I can outline who will attack who and why if you want.

[Just Me]

49. Permanent presence is precisely what BushCO/neoconsters sought,...

,...from the beginning. The whole M.E knows what the US corporacrats are seeking. There will NEVER be any form of peace, let alone democracy or stability, if we remain there. Our presence will fuel a war that will last for decades. Is that what you want? Have you considered the cost, the loss, the explosion of destabilization that will suck our country dry of economic and human strength?

Think about it.

[caelestissurf]

51. And our redeployment

over the horizon will lead to a regional war which will involve at least 12 countries if not more. At least noiw, the majority of the violence is contained in Iraq. If not for my battle injury, I would be going back in the summer and I would be happy about that.

Leaving will cause much more death than staying and I would suck our country dry to keep peace in the greater middle east. But that's just my opinion.

[Skip Intro]

66. "I would suck our country dry to keep peace in the greater middle east" ?!

I swear I"m not trying to pick a fight, I'm a pacifist for the most part, but why do you put other countries above your own? Assuming you're American.

You would suck our country dry? What else would you suck America dry for?

Why is this so called "peace in the Middle East" worth American lives, and how many American lives is it worth?

Are we getting closer to peace, or further away?

I'm sorry all that I have are questions at this point.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skip Intro]

75. So its our responsibility to "free" Iraq? And if I disagree I'm fearful?

A fearful isolationist?

[caelestissurf]

81. Not at all

you are what you believe you are, and I am the same for me.

I'm not going to judge you, I have no right.

[Just Me]

88. I'll answer that: you are a pragmatic who seeks global stabilization,...

,...rather than the destabilization sought by tyrannical corporacratic profiteers who don't give a damn about "freedom" for others, let alone democratization which can NEVER be imposed at the barrel of bloodshed.

Truly RESPONSIBLE advocates of democracy don't fucking profit off war!!!

[caelestissurf]

100. That sounds

about right.

[Just Me]

115. May I recommend,....

,...a "read" to you? If so, please pick up, "Confessions of an Economic Hitman".

Thing is, my friend, there are times when we walk right in front of a bus,...because we are simply not looking both ways; while the blind and deaf have better sense.

[Just Me]

67. I simply disagree with your assessment. "WE" are the ones on the,...

,...verge of inciting a world war,...WE ARE THE ONES INCITING THAT CONFLICT!!! Do you realize the neoconsters intended and still intend exactly THAT: inciting another world war?

It's not our departure that will stir what you concern. It's our presence.

Do you understand why our presence will stir a world war?

[caelestissurf]

73. Exactly who

is about to engage us in a world war? Europe? China? India? Africa? South America?

Please explain.

[Just Me]

79. WE are engaging the M.E. and all those tied to them,...

,...in addition to other oil-producing companies.

Have you read PNAC? Do you have any background material on the neoconsters and BushCO?

:shrug:

[caelestissurf]

83. Yep

I am also aware of Ledeen role in things.

I don't agree with PNAC, but I also refuse to agree with withdrawal fanatics that can't see the bigger picture.

[Just Me]

93. Yep. I oppose those who fail to ACCEPT the bigger picture, as well.

Anti-Americanism escalating around the world has nothing to do with jealously but rather opposition to abuse. Yes? Or have you no idea about the exploitation that has taken place?

[caelestissurf]

97. It has to do with both

To deny that either plays a role is to ignore reality

[Just Me]

122. Be more specific. What do you mean "ignore reality"?

Are you speaking of the reality of those who have been exploited for profit or something else?

What are you talking about?

Who profits off others' weakness and kills when the weak takes a stand?

Have you a clue about that which you speak? :shrug: Or are you speaking a nationalistic-off-the-cuff "freedom-speak" language that has no meaning or depth or understanding, whatsoever?

What "reality", whose "reality" do you project (other than your own, if that matters)?

[DS1]

162. Over the Horizon is about being unseen, but ready to stamp down

any uprising quickly and effectively. Over the Horizon is basically the Marines' mantra, it's little surprise that it came from Murtha.

[Skip Intro]

53. Permanent bases In Iraq? In case we have to go back in? I have a question-

I don't mean disrespect to you here, but you are saying things that make me wonder. And that leads me to a few questions to you.

What is the mission here? Our mission, in Iraq? I have to ask because the mission keeps changing. It was protecting the homeland from imminent danger from Iraq's non-eixistent WMD. Then it was to "liberate" the Iraqis. Now its to establish permanent bases in the region?

I can't help but note that Iraq is a country we attacked, not the other way around.

WE attacked THEM, for what turned out to be LIES.

And its now insane, after all the blood, to suggest bringing it to a close?

Will it ever make sense to leave, in your opinion?

[caelestissurf]

59. I can answer your questions

The reason given by the chimperor was WMD. Now I was an intel analyst that reclassed to Infantry after 9/11 and spend the first 8 years of my Army time analyzing the Middle East. I never bought thw WMD thing, but I did want to go in there to overthrow Saddam hussein. Of course there are much worse dictators in the world, but with Saddam we knew we had a chance to overthrow him. A very good chance, we couldn't say the same thing about North Korea.

Our mission in Iraq for me and for my men was to overthrow Saddam Hussein, kill any of his followers that attacked us, kill anyone that attacked us and bring everyone home. As for the permanent bases, that is the worst kind of tinfoil hat bullshit. I have travelled a lot in Iraq and a few of the bases listed by the friends of the quakers website don't even exist. The bases are not permanent in the sense that fort Hood is permanent. They are structures built to supply, rearm and rest deployed personnel in support of the mission. Having a burger king does not make a base permanent, if so we have closer to 50 permanent bases rather than 14 or 18 or whatever number is in vogue this week.

In my opinion it will make sense to leave only when we can be relatively sure that Iraq's govt. will stand on its own. And I do think it's insanity to say that we quit, time to go home, the loss was too great. It would be folly to allow those arrayed against us to have such a propaganda victory. We have already turned much of the muslim world against us, abandoning Iraq and watching a civli war erupt after we fled would lose the rest of them to us. And make no mistake, what you see in Iraq right now is not civil war, it is score settling. Civil War in Iraq would kill millions as it spilled over into at least 10-11 other countries. So no I don'ty want us to leave anytime soon. If I can find a way back in, I will return to Iraq, but my leg is pretty frakked up from the shrapnel scars and muscle loss.

so judge me if you will.

[tabasco]

71. I'm an 11B too ... what battalions you been in?

Maybe we know some of the same asshole commanders.

We were wrong to go into Iraq in the first place and wrong to stay. We are not a stabilizing force, but a destabilizing force. Iraq did not attack us. No Iraqis were on the planes that hit NYC. Iraq deserves the same right to self-determination as any other nation. We did not want other countries fucking with us during our civil war. If the Iraqis must fight it out to gain stability, so be it. We do not belong in the middle of it. We are not the policeman of the world. The only reason we are there is to control the oil. Wake up fellow grunt. Here is a pic of Bu$h and his boss.

[caelestissurf]

78. Before my injury

I have served in three Inf bn's.


1-9 Inf bn. Camp Casey Korea
2-2 Inf Bn(1st Armorerd) that's who I served with in Iraq, our CSM got whacked in Fallujah

1-27th Inf Bn schofiled barracks Hawaii.

[Skip Intro]

77. You called for permanent bases, my friend - its why you didn't like Murtha

His plan, that is.

"something I don't understand. Withdrawal completely and give up all bases so that if we have to we must fight our way back ino the country? That's insanity and one reason I don't like the Murtha plan."

[caelestissurf]

84. All the bases we have now

does not translate into me wanting permanent bases.

[Just Me]

107. ,...and those bases would be?

:shrug: Moving from Saudi Arabia (where the 9/11 terrorists pretty much originated) to other Middle East, oil rich countries that will produce even more terrorists since we are OCCUPYING AND CONTROLLING a sovereign nation smack dab in the middle of a continent that has been fighting for-fucking-ever to preserve their independence and FREEDOM.

Sheesh. How arrogant we have become,...how arrogant and tyrannical, frankly.

[Skip Intro]

108. but you just said the opposite of that, right here:

"something I don't understand. Withdrawal completely and give up all bases so that if we have to we must fight our way back ino the country? That's insanity and one reason I don't like the Murtha plan."


That was in an earlier post by you in this thread. "Giving up all bases so that if we have to we must fight our way back in" is what you said. Now you're saying you don't want permanent bases.

I'm confused.

[Texasgal]

76. Please don't do this...

Please.

We should be THANKING this young man that went over and had to witness and do unspeakable things. We should have more compassion for him, not disdain.

If you are not a soilder fighting in Iraq, then we really don't have a clue as to what these Men and Women have gone through.

[Skip Intro]

82. I'm simply asking questions, and I'm sure it was expected by the poster.

I have not been rude, I have not been insulting, I have been respectful.

Take a wider view.

[caelestissurf]

86. Yes you have

I just disagree with you.

[Texasgal]

87. You clearly have not been rude...

however, I can see that this thread could tether into being that way quickly.

That's my "wider view".

[caelestissurf]

85. Don't worry gal

I am not afraid of my convictions and my beliefs. People can challenge me all they want. I am comfortable with who I am and what I believe to be correct.

I did right by my soldiers and by my own personal code of ethics, and no one can ever strip me of that.

[Texasgal]

91. Don't say that...

While you are having a nice exchange, and while you are "comfortable" there will be some who will pursue this adversely. Trust me, happens all of the time on DU.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Texasgal]

102. Yes, it will speak volumes...

Funny isn't it? :)

I just don't want this to degenerate.

I have respect for what you had to do. I appreciate your service.

I am completely AGAINST the Iraqi war, and I am completely anti-bush.

However. I must state that you SERVED US. We should be THANKFUL no matter what you had to do.

That is all.

[caelestissurf]

105. Thanks again

I am anti war, but not against this one and I have always been anti bush, two bit carpetbagger that had the gall to claim he wassfrom my beloved Texas.

Thanks, I know my views are not popular, but the views of a combat soldier would by definition be hard for non ccombat civilians to understand. I don't want people to like me, I want them to listen and to think. That is all ;)

[mitchtv]

113. what? civilians have no say? isn't that "Unamerican"?

No one has called anyone anything, except "withdrawal fanatics" by the poster in question. I figure there is already a civil war going on, and it will break out Hot, whether we leave in 6 weeks or 6 years. time to leave is as soon as possible. You don't take sides in a civil war, we did so.

[helderheid]

172. I thought I heard tinfoil theory also thrown out.

[Bouncy Ball]

111. Apparently, though, you WERE a freeptard of some stripe

since I see you are tombstoned now.

[Texasgal]

114. Why was he a freep?

I didn't see where he was a freep...:shrug:

[i have issues]

116. See below.

nt

[Skip Intro]

124. Pro Iraq invason/occupation, pro perm bases, pro sucking America dry

to repeat lies is to be a liar

can you see it now?

[Texasgal]

126. Yes..yes..

I am embarrassed.

I am sorry to all my Friends on DU. I truly thought we had a liberal solider on our hands.

[Bouncy Ball]

131. Oh hon.

Hugs.

It's ok. You know what? You were just being NICE. HE was being a liar and an asshole.

That's not your fault so do NOT apologize.

[Texasgal]

137. Thanks Bouncy..

I REALLY thought he was a good guy.

I am now reading the entire thread.. and I am starting to understand. I was only focusing on the topic of the thread before we highjacked it.

God, I feel stupid. I guess I am.

Thank you, your kindness means alot.

I just posted a message on his blog. I told him he should be ashamed of himself, that he has just learned a valuble lesson from progressive-ness... TOLERANCE.

[Individualist]

127. Also pro war crimes

The asshole supported the use of white phosphorous as a weapon.

[Bouncy Ball]

128. So you didn't check out the link to his blog at the bottom of this thread?

He was just stringing everyone along on this thread. Read his blog. He's proud to have voted for shrub twice. He's proud his wife voted for shrub twice. He has a few choice words for Democrats like you and I on his blog.

And more than once on this thread, he says he shot and killed Iraqis and isn't sorry for it one bit.

That's pretty sick. But like I said further downthread, that's what war does to a person.

[Kahuna]

149. The chimperor has put us in a no win situation. We're damned if

we stay. We're damned if we leave. That's how I see it. I do understand completely why many people say we can't withdraw with the current situation because it would further destabilize the region. I also understand the people who say our very presence fuels the attacks and fighting. It breaks my heart that our military are sitting ducks. It breaks my heart that they have to stay because we would be accused of losing the peace and of cutting and running. This is what a "quagmire" looks like. We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

[The Stranger]

154. What were your rules of engagement?

[spindrifter]

2. We did

write about it Saturday.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1949098

I looked at the www.aegisIraq.co.uk website and there was a "blow-up" video. As another DUer pointed out, we have no way of knowing where the video came from. Could have been melded from a variety of other shots. It could, as I mentioned in my last post on that thread, have been something put together to stir up more problems for T.Bl*ir, since he and Spicer, head of that company, are oil and water.

I do think it is criminal for us to be paying $293 million to a company that had been in business for one year, and primarily had been going after pirates--not providing corporate-type seurity.

[shawnwasson]

3. Someone post this on Daily Kos....

They don't have the video....

[spindrifter]

6. They need to look at the Brookings Institution

stuff I harvested for this thread last nite. The aegisIraq website, without regard to whether the videos are real is chilling. The people (contractors/employees)posting there are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. There is also a disgusting racist tone to some of it.

[Poll_Blind]

5. Thank you. n/t

PB

[dutchdemocrat]

7. video here too - in Flash 8 and WMV download

Video is up here too.
I have it up here in Macromedia Flash 8 and downloadable as a wmv.

[Turbineguy]

8. Now Iraq

has its very own chapter of the KKK!



:headbang:

[ReverendDeuce]

11. Send this to EVERY NEWS OUTLET as soon as possible...

This needs to be seen to be believed.

[caelestissurf]

14. What needs to be seen???

As I said in post 10 without context, you have no truth. Did they just shoot at Iraqis for the hell of it? Possibly, Did they shoot at Iraqi vehicles that got too close to them? Certainly, Did they shoot at what they perceived to be threats? Probably.

Did I shoot at Iraqi cars that got too close and that I perceived as a threat? You better believe it. I'm sure we hit a few people too. Call me evil, call me the devil, call me whatever you want, but all of my friends came home and that is all I cared about. If you want to air this video, than I guarantee you, every soldier in Iraq that might be on the fence about voting Democrat next time will turn against you if the perception is there that the Dems ran with this story. WHY? Because I also guarantee you almost every soldier that ever went out in a convoy engaged in the same actions during their year in country.

These men did something, do we know if it was evil or not? No we don't. So don't be so quick to judge without knowing all the facts. That's what we accuse the freeptards of everyday.

Now let's see if anyone accuse me of being in league with SatanBush.

[bvar22]

18. "all of my friends came home and that is all I cared about"

Those are frightening words.
No concern for "How Many" were killed. Innocent or not?
Did you win any hearts and minds?

[caelestissurf]

22. I wasn't there to do that

I was there to bring my people home. I came home with a nice shrapnel scar in my knee, but only one of my soldiers (I was platoon sergeant) came home in a box. I did my job. I helped where I could but my number one focus was on keeping those kids alive. I did pretty well and that was all that mattered. Like I said judge if you want to, my conscience is clear and my soul is intact.

I don't expect you to understand! But I have no regrets.

[dutchdemocrat]

45. Well

That's certainly your perogative

Having been there.

But I am trying to present the other side which does not get shown in the US media. My Lai was the last straw for Vietnam. I truly hope Abu Ghraib, as well as some of the visuals that will come out in the future - will help end the war and, most importantly, end the killing of people on all sides.

It's up to the people to look at the evidence, the propaganda or whatever you want to call it... from both sides and make their decisions. There is evil and crimes of horror happening on all sides of the battle.

The MSM in the US will only show one side. The evil terrorists who blow up people who are just trying to help them out. Some of those people may have had a brother, sister, mother, father or family in Abu Ghraib getting raped and beaten. Some of them may have had their homes destroyed. These people had nothing to do with 9-11.

What would you do if someone came into the USA to 'liberate' the country from Bush. And they mowed down your house, threw your family in jail, and/or killed them? You'd protect your family for sure. Never mind your mates.

You are trying to protect your buddies and I understand that. I would do the same - where you and I draw our lines as opposed to a punk kid who grew up with Doom and thinks the whole thing is a fucking game... is another story.

Proof you need? See more? I'd love to see the US media give everyone the 'proof' they need. The stories are out there. Why are we picking them up in cyberspace and they are not? Why are we showing material that they won't? Because the buck does not stop at the editorial or publisher's desk. It's stops at the advertisers.

You trust them to do the right thing? Here's a guy... a reporter who was sacked as an embed for merely releasing something that was 'unacceptable'. I think his view, having been there is exceptional. He does not 'blame' the soldier, nor does he exonerate him.

What happened in the Fallujah mosque?

http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/warcrime3 /

As for pulling out - I don't think staying there is going to make much of a difference. In fact, it's probably going to make things worse... because you don't know who the enemy is and more and more innocents are being killed and more and more people are becoming enraged all over the world. This is an asymmetric war that the US will never win - because the insurgents will use the mosques and residential areas in order to grey out the targets and cause a lot of senseless deaths - because it can cause the US to pull out vis a vis pubic pressure via the media and... the internet. As it did in Vietnam. They are as determined to get the occupiers out as you were in bringing home your 'boys'.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/bibs/asw/asw.htm

[caelestissurf]

50. It's funny

I think the media only shows the bad of all sides going on.

Things are shown on our media......

The mosque killing was shown here in our media, I for one have no problem with that action taken against that particular insurgent. Remember I was in Fallujah at that time last november and booby trapped bodies were very common. We shot them when we found them to make sure they were dead. Again the safety of my guys was my number one priority, I would walk through hell to get them home to their families.

As for the truth in Iraq, my first tour there showed me that the insurgents are much more destructive than Coalition forces. The insurgents have no goals other than sheer destruction terror or misery. They aren't trying to rebuild anything, they are trying to ensure schools are rebuilt or reopened and they are doing nothing to help the Iraqi people. The Coalition which makes egregious mistakes at least tries to help and for me that is enough. We build more than we destroy, and in an enviroment where shades of gray rule the day, that is important.

[dutchdemocrat]

58. Thing is

Most of the 'insurgents' are Iraqi people. That's common and available information - released by the Pentagon itself.

Maybe they call themselves the resistance?

In Holland in WW2, the 'resistance' blew up the infrastructure in the country... the trains, the supply chains and tens of thousands of Dutch people died - starved to death in The Hague, Rotterdam, Amsterdam. That includes members of my own family.

They did what they had too in order rid the country of the Germans... slow down the war machine... And those sacrifices made gave the allies, the Americans, Brits, Canadians, Aussies, and Kiwis the window, the hole... they needed to drive them out.

[caelestissurf]

68. Yes they are

Iraqi people that had everything to lose when saddam fell.

Please don't compare the dutch resistance to the Iraqi one. The dutch acted to protect their people from evil.

The iraqi resistance builds nothing, helps no one, it exists to cause terror and kill anyone that crosses it. At least the U.s. tries to build things and help people.

the dutch were far nobler than the men I fought for a year of my life.

[dutchdemocrat]

94. Well, I don't know

Far nobler?

I would not say that.

There were plenty of people in Holland who sypathised with Germans - who got milk... and cheese, while their countrymen died around them like dogs... and they believed the Germans would create a better Holland with its wealth and influence. Many were executed quietly after the war... but some descendents still wear the tar of their parents and grandparents who chose to accept the illegal occupation of their homeland for political or financial gain.

I am drawing an analogy - because it helps to get outside the box... to see how other people may view what you view with a different background, different influences and a different perspective.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. So what is the point?

I am sorry but I don't get it. A car is moving down the road and someone is firing a gun from the car at the other cars on the road. How do we know who this is? Is the Elvis music supposed to prove the gun was fired by an American?

[Texasgal]

17. Exactly!

How do we even know who was doing the shooting? You can hear no AMERICAN voices in the backround... it looks very suspect to me.

[Cocoa]

26. video found on contractors' website

and the contractor and British government are investigating...

Last night a spokesman for defence firm Aegis Defence Services - set up in 2002 by Lt Col Tim Spicer, a former Scots Guards officer - confirmed that the company was carrying out an internal investigation to see if any of their employees were involved.

The Foreign Office has also confirmed that it is investigating the contents of the video in conjunction with Aegis, one of the biggest security companies operating in Iraq. The company was recently awarded a £220 million security contract in Iraq by the United States government. Aegis conducts a number of security duties and helped with the collection of ballot papers in the country's recent referendum

Lt Col Spicer, 53, rose to public prominence in 1998 when his private military company Sandlines International was accused of breaking United Nations sanctions by selling arms to Sierra Leone.

The video first appeared on the website www.aegisIraq.co.uk. The website states: "This site does not belong to Aegis Defence Ltd, it belongs to the men on the ground who are the heart and soul of the company." The clips have been removed.

The website also contains a message from Lt Col Spicer, which reads: "I am concerned about media interest in this site and I remind everyone of their contractual obligation not to speak to or assist the media without clearing it with the project management or Aegis London.

more...

[Texasgal]

28. That's still no proof...

How do we know it's not some disgruntled employee who posted that to make the company look bad?

Look.. I am not saying that all the contractors are ANGELS over there, but shit... that video proves nothing....

Flame me if you must..

[Cocoa]

32. I agree it's not proof

thus the investigations. :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Okay that explains where it came from

but NOT who the guys in the video are.

[dutchdemocrat]

48. Why don't you read the article?

They are most likely Brits - as can be deduced from the accents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. I did read the article

but the 'proof' is in that video.

It is far from a smoking gun.

[dutchdemocrat]

62. The proof of what?

Murder?

No.

Picking off cars on the road like pumpkins on a fence?

Yes.

Blackwater Security, CACI, Titan paying people
up to $2000 a day..
high use of alcohol and drugs
with all that money..
and a desire for 'cheap thrills'

Most likely.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. I tend to give this post here

more credibility:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5461705&mesg_id=5462180

[dutchdemocrat]

98. Why sure...

Sure he's an analyst.

Going to work for basically the same crew he's defending for six figures a years.

Extra credits for less than one hundred posts and no bias.

[caelestissurf]

103. Who am I defending?

The people in the video seem to be the topic of this thread.

And so far there is no evidence they are randomly killing people for fun which seems to be the kneejerk reaction.

And yes I am taking a job that is in defense, but it pays far less than six figures a year and it utilizes one of the few skills I have, knowledge of the Middle East and the inner working of the insurgency. I get to do my job without going to Iraq and causing more trouble, something I would have though you would be happy with.

[dutchdemocrat]

112. Well....

So far there is no evidence there is not. Double edged sword mate.

It's under investigation because there seems to be a problem. Not because there's 'no evidence' as you like to point out.

Hey - the military industrial complex pays. If that's what matters, then do it.

Not like there's much choice with thousands of layoffs in the US at GM, Ford, IT companies, engineering and design companies outsourcing to Bangalore... Walmart or Private military. C'est la Vie.

The economy is pumping - for the top earners... sure. Middle class is being gnawed away to the bone.

[caelestissurf]

90. Actually

CACI hires intel analysts they really aren't into the personal security game that much.

In what may be one of my last posts here before people go insane I have an interview in 3 weeks with CACI in Hawaii to do Middle East analysis and country study back sourcing.

I won't deploy, but I will be a hated defense contractor in many DUers eyes.

So there, there's that. Let the hatred begin.

Edit: I have a skill they want to use, I am a combat veteran and I need a job. So sue me if this boils your blood.

[jimshoes]

16. If this isn't a clear cut case of

willful murder, then we are living in bizarro world. Is this the culture of life? Is this freedom for the Iraqi's? This is beyond offensive.

[caelestissurf]

19. How is it a clear cut case?

I did the same and more in my year in Iraq. We have rules of engagement, they are posted in arabic all over every single city and town. If you get too close we will shoot. Force protection matters to soldiers, if I let one person too close and they have a bomb in their car, I am dead, my friends are dead and bystanders are dead. In the grim calculus of war, I'll take my friends iver Iraqis. Sorry, judge me if you want to, but I'm fairly certain you haven't walked in my shoes.

The point is we don't know shit about this incident, and you are jumping the shark.

[jimshoes]

30. Hey my mistake

It just looks like a clear cut case of willful murder. Maybe it isn't. Best to wait for more facts. Question, did you have a video camera mounted in your vehicle pointed out the rear window while you were driving around Iraq? One other question, from the video, the camera car seems to be at a near stop at the 1:14 point in the video, the car coming up on the camera vehicle cant know there are wary mercs in the car can they? This seems pretty indefensible, but I'll wait to hear some facts before making any more judgments.

[caelestissurf]

38. Yes we did

have a video camera all the time, I have some wild videos of shootouts with insurgents, 2 IED's that hit our convoys and tons of video of happy smiling Iraqi children. (<---My favorite part of Iraq.)

And yes contractors drive heavily armored late model American made SUV's, usually white or silver in color. And yes I would swear upon my life most Iraqis are well aware of who is driving those vehicles. SUV's are still rare in Iraq, brand new armored plated ones are even more rare and are only owned by one group of people. Anyone approaching such a vehicle has a deathwish, is a bad guy or is a candidate for a Darwin award.

[jimshoes]

44. I can't help but notice

that in two sequences on this tape, the camera car all but stops in the road to let the car catch up to it and then sprays it with automatic weapon fire. If I'm a contractor going from point A to point B, I don't think I'll be stopping in the road along the way. But pehaps there is a reason I'm missing.

[caelestissurf]

46. Actually

That is also common SOP. You drive and stop, adrive and stop to see if you are being followed, to see if the car behind you is acting in a threatening way and to see if they are respecting the buffer zone around your vehicle.

Anyone with a brain in Iraq and a desire to live would not rush up quickly on an armored SUV. They are the easiest vehicles on Iraqi roads to ID.

Having watched the video several times now, I can't see anything the contractors did wrong. They were following their SOP perfectly since it's the same one we use for convoy operations.

[jimshoes]

60. Well, I hope they didn't have to

travel too far then, they will run out of bullets eventually. Perhaps it's just me never having served in the military, but if the whole country is a war zone, where some contractors cannot drive to their destination without leaving behind a trail of bullet riddled cars, how does one win in a situation like that?

[caelestissurf]

65. But that's the thing

Much of Iraq is not a war zone. Much of the country lives in "relative peace". The areas of heavy insurgent activity are Baghdad, Al Anbar province, which is large but sparsely inhabited and the area around tikrit-Samara. Mosul has been cleaned up and Kirkuk is almost under complete Kurdish control, so in m humble opinion, about 35% of Iraq is a war zone that affects about 45% of the population.

And contractors would have probably over a thousand rounds of ammo apiece on a convoy like that. And their mission isn't to win, it's to protect their charge, usually a high ranking person or critical delivery of certain supplies or equipment. They aren't trying to win, just not lose people or things.

[jimshoes]

80. Question...

you seem to know a bit about the equipment and personnel that are being used in Iraq, can you tell how many people are in the camera vehicle, either from the video or the audio? Also what model vehicle the camera car is? Thanks.

[caelestissurf]

92. It sounds like

4 people

Driver, Radio operator and 2 gunners in the back seat.

If I had to guess late model tricked out Ford Explorer, I 'll need to watch the video more to be certain.

[jimshoes]

109. If you were to hazard a guess

what or whom do you think they were charged with protecting in this video? They seem to be moving at their own pace so I'm guessing it's not a convoy. No extra people in the vehicle so it's probably not that. Bags of money maybe?

[Texasgal]

20. How is it "clear-cut"?

Who is doing the shooting? HOw do we know what this REALLY is?

Just playing devils advocate here, I don't think we should be so quick to "decide" what really happened with out some more evidence.

[caelestissurf]

23. Thanks Texasgal

You a UT student? I'm a UT grad and 5th generation Texan living in Hawaii now.

But I agree we know nothing about the context, or situation and some people want to bring down the hammer.

[Texasgal]

27. No need to Thank me.,.

It's amazing the knee-jerk reactions we get here on DU. I am sure that I am going to get flamed for this and other posts, but honestly there is NO PROOF that AMERICAN CONTRACTORS were shooting at civilians from that tape. NONE.

Ia m not a UT Student I attended SMU. My whole family are Longhorns however, and I live here in Austin.... with season TIX!! :)

And I would also like to add, that I appreciate YOUR SERVICE. I am so sorry that you had to do it, but I do APPRECIATE YOU.

[caelestissurf]

33. Don't be sorry

I joined knowing full well what I was getting in to. My recruiter told me the absolute truth and I am a better man for my service. Thank you for you kind words.

[Aimah]

21. How do they report these incidents?

Could it be that these incidents and others like them are being attributed to the insurgents?

[caelestissurf]

24. It would be hard to do

The Iraqis as a rule usually come to us to report an attack on them. If westerners attack them, they contact Al Jazeera or another organization that will tell their story. It's rare that contractors seek to kill Iraqi civilians, it does happen and I will never deny that, but not on the scale of insurgent score settling or terror sowing. And there is a difference!

[Aimah]

31. How do you know they know who attacked them?

If a truck is speeding in front of them they may not be able to see who did it. I don't think the Iraqis would assume that contractors would shoot at them for no reason. So why would they report it as contractors when the only group they would expect is insurgents.

[caelestissurf]

34. That's an easy one champ

Insurgents do not drive late model white armored SUV's. Iraqis are well aware of who does.

[Aimah]

42. I'll have to look at the tape again.

I couldn't tell anything about it other than it probably had to back center opening doors and back window wipers.

[berni_mccoy]

25. I can't imagine why those people of Fallujah did such a terrible thing

to those four poor contractors...:sarcasm:

[caelestissurf]

35. Neither can I

Those four men were escorting a food convoy. Aren't you quick to judge?

[berni_mccoy]

37. I'm not judging anyone... in fact, I'm showing how it's wrong to judge the

Iraqi citizens without knowing the facts. When shit like this is going on, how can you judge the citizens for defending themselves against it?

[caelestissurf]

39. As a OIF veteran

I will never call what happened in fallujah that day self defense. I was in Ramadi and knew one of those men. One of the finest human beings I have ever known, he was there to help feed people and was killed by aninmals. Judge that statement however you want!!

I am not calling all Iraqis animals, but anyone who would kill men, then chop the bodies into pieces, then light them on fire, then hang them from a bridge as a "badge of honor" is an animal.

[sproutster]

47. Awww...

Saw-weet! Did you save your movies of the animals? Especially those of the smaller variety?

Glad our honerable guys never lit a body on fire, or cut anyone up. :D All the pictures we see are always of insurgents, and we never did any of that damage. nope nope nope. Coz you were there and tell us truthfully they are animals.

[caelestissurf]

52. LOL

I enjoy sarcasm.

Of course we did bad things, but one side tries to help the people and one side only commits atrocities. Do you know who is who? :D

[Freedomfried]

41. If you watched closely, you could see the warning flash-bangs going out of

the vehicle and detonating on the side of the road. I suspect this was the warning shot.

Another thing I noticed was that the cars fired on were approaching very quickly.

I also think the song in the soundtrack was added not for the selection of music, but picked at random to camouflage the voices..

You really cant blame the contractors, you must blame the people that sent them there.

[MadisonProgressive]

55. I hate to be a wet blanket

but do we know for certain that these are Americans?

[Rex]

56. Kinda eerie watching cars drive on as they slaughter innocent

people. No regard for human life, just like their paymasters. I would say I'm outraged, but nothing surprises me anymore. Just the level RWingers will sink, that kinda does.

Welcome to total Hell, Boosh style.

[i have issues]

57. Very similar to what was shown on Frontline.

Without the killing of course. The one aspect of this ridiculous conversation I don't get is... Its the Iraqis freaking country! Why the fuck should they have to tiptoe around a bunch of overpaid thug mercenaries on their own goddamn roads? SOP or not, maybe one of those Iraqi citizens was on the way to the hospital? A family emergency? And flame me if you want, Fallujah was a massacre. A war crime. Period.

[caelestissurf]

61. I was there

and it was not a massacre. We can debate the finer points if you want. I saw it with my own eyes unvarnished through a telephoto lens or any personal bias or lack of bias.

[i have issues]

74. There is the wee little question about the use of White Phosphorus...

As seen Here:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article327094.ece
and here:A Movie!
http://media.putfile.com/white-phosphorus-Fallujah
and here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/051109-phosphorus-fallujah.htm

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[i have issues]

101. Umm...

Women and children MELTED?,,,

"I can support the use of Willy Pete and still work for the good of the Iraqi people. It's a fine line but one people that haven't been in combat seem unable to understand."

That's not a fine line. I can rob a bank and kill the teller, and still volunteer at a homeless shelter, so that makes me a good citizen? Jesus fucking christ, thats the most specious reasoning I've heard since the last time * opened his mouth!

[caelestissurf]

104. I don't ask anyone

to sympathize with my beliefs, but they are who I am and they are what I believe. Serve a tour in Iraq and come back and tell me that you can see the difference between my two statements.

[i have issues]

110. Sorry pal,

The only way I'll ever see combat is DEFENDING my country, not starting an illegal war, dropping Daisy Cutters and MOABs on innocents, using incendiaries on civilians and then trying to justify it. Do what ever you need to do to sleep at night. Alerting...Now.

[Just Me]

132. Debating the "finer points" of a fucking massacre is precisely,...

,...what makes me furious about this war-profiteering, tyrannical and lyin' sons-a-bitch regime in charge in this country. Let's talk about the "finer points" of those who sold Saddam chems, bitched about him using them, then turned around and used chems. HEARTLESS FUCKERS!!!!

Those BASTARDS who have SPENT American and Iraqi lives are lavishing in a sure future of wealth and security while they threaten all our lives. I hate them. They secure no one. They free no one. They give nothing to anyone but themselves on the backs of every honor and trust and hope of humanity.

Let's talk about the "finer points" of those fuckers. Let's talk about THAT!!!!

[Rex]

63. What gives those people in the car the right to kill indescriminatly?

Total anarchy! People just trying to get on with their lives after living under one tyrant and now a new one. If this was combat then where is the return fire? Just like WMD, it doesn't exist.

[caelestissurf]

72. There are rules to a war zone

As a soldier I will follow them to protect my friends, because at that moment they matter more than Iraqis do. Flame me all you want, judge me if you feel so inclined, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Bouncy Ball]

119. War did its job on you.

War did to you what it does to everyone involved in it, all the way back to the beginning of human history.

You are tombstoned, so I'm not sure you are even reading this, but this is a great illustration, for anyone else reading this thread, of what war DOES to soldiers/servicemembers who are involved in the conflict.

It turns them into nothing but their baser instincts. It makes you an animal, only intent on your survival and the survival of your pack.

I find it ironic that you have referred to the insurgents as animals. I am quite sure more than a few Iraqis have referred to American troops as animals, too.

And the carousel goes round and round.

Your statements sound callous to everyone reading them because they are. They sound simple and truthful to you, because to you, they are. They are simple and they are callous. You say you shot and killed Iraqis and you do not care. You say you advocate the use of white phosphorous, which kills indiscriminately, and you do not care.

War did its job on you. It was very, very effective on turning you into what it needed to turn you into.

And there you go. I wish you peace. And I hope someday you can look back on your statements and know it was what war did to you.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

151. When he said, earlier in the thread, that he would rather see America

"sucked dry" of all resources than have troops leave Iraq, the alarm bells rang.

His agenda is not on par with most patriotic citizens. MKJ

[Rex]

140. There are rules in a war zone called ROEs

Last time I checked shooting cars indiscriminately was against the ROEs. Now if this is private contractors then all bets are off. Who knows what ethical standards the company goes by. I really refuse to believe these are troops of any army. Mercs maybe.

[Gregorian]

64. These evil beings walk the streets of America.

These are the creatures who live amongst us.
And I will refrain from being more specific. But I can tell you what they do and where they live and who they vote for.

But we can no easier get rid of them than Bush can get rid of terrorism.

http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/Bareknucklepoliticscom_EXCLUSIVE_10122.html

[adarling]

96. God, what is wrong with these people

my heart just plunged even further...didn't know it could go that far:cry:

[caelestissurf]

99. wrong with what people?

The people who acted like I did in Iraq and did what they needed to do to protect themselves? Or the people that are judging this without knowing all the facts? To whom do you refer?

[caelestissurf]

106. By the way

Forgive my spelling, I'm in a hurry, I'm trying to update my blog and type here at the same time. ;)

[tkmorris]

117. Hey, look at this link

http://themakahasurfreport.blogspot.com/

This is you pal. Now go peddle your bullshit elsewhere.

[Individualist]

118. He's already gone,

courtesy of the mods. Good riddance!

[i have issues]

120. Excellent catch!

I cant believe I wasted so much time on him. fucktard.

[dutchdemocrat]

121. Me too

I knew he was. He was way too hip with the lingo. DU and Freeptard in under 50 is a dead giveaway.

[dutchdemocrat]

123. Caelestis

Caelestis

* Age: 31
* Gender: male
* Astrological Sign: Libra
* Zodiac Year: Tiger
* Industry: Military
* Occupation: Defense Contractor
* Location: Makaha : Hawaii : United States


Favorite Books

* The Neocon Reader -- by Irwin Stelzer

[Texasgal]

125. Shit...

I was completely HAD!

I am such a dumbass... I ws REALLY listening to what he was saying...

DAMN.

[tkmorris]

130. Don't feel too bad

He did try hard to sound reasonable, even if I found his perspective reprehensible. From his point of view any amount of indiscrinate killing is apparently ok if it is done 'to keep his men safe". That sounds an awful like like the reasoning used to justify such events as the Japanese internment camps during WW2 and the Spanish Inquisition.

[Bouncy Ball]

133. Yep.

If he were still around, I'd remind him the killing of non-combatants is an unlawful order and he had every right to DISobey unlawful orders.

But he's not around. And he's perfectly ok with having killed non-combatants. That's so sick.

[Texasgal]

135. I guess I was more foucused on the

thread itself, before we highjacked it...

Color me stupid...I feel like shit now.

[Bouncy Ball]

136. You stop that right now!

You had no way of knowing! He just thought he was being clever and sneaky and you were being your nice self and thanking him for his service.

:hug:

[helderheid]

173. how did you figure out they were the same guy?

:shrug:

excuse my ignorance!! :)

[BigMcLargehuge]

129. Mercs are pieces of fucking shit... all of them

[Bouncy Ball]

134. Hear, hear.

[Poll_Blind]

142. Amen! n/t

PB

[HardWorkingDem]

143. Is this appropriate?

Can you clarify what your meaning is?

This is like saying all cops are pieces of shit or some other group.

What exacty is your point?

[Bouncy Ball]

152. Are you going to defend mercenaries?

Seriously?

Because if you are, I want to see this.

And are you REALLY comparing police officers to mercenaries? WOW.

:popcorn:

[HardWorkingDem]

157. What is your definition of a mercenary?

Explain to me your definition of a mercenary? And we can go from there.

For example, do you consider the private contractors in Iraq mercenaries?
Or the ones that hire on as personal protection for dignitaries or politicians?

What I didn't care for is a poster, especially a moderator, linking a whole group of people together and making a blanket statement in a vague manner such as what was done.

And again, please refrain from putting meaning into my postings, because what you did is incorrect and out of context: my purpose was to point out that making a blanket statement like the one the OP in this particular thread did is like when a person makes a blanket statement against an entire group or occupation of people. Cops were only used as example. Defense attorneys could be used as another. I was not comparing cops to mercenaries, but pointing out the terrible practice of how people characterize an entire group because of one part they don't like.

[BigMcLargehuge]

170. How about Webster's definition

Main Entry: 1mer·ce·nary
Pronunciation: 'm&r-s&n-"er-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nar·ies
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin mercenarius, irregular from merced-, merces wages -- more at MERCY
: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service

But to be clear, for you, all of the gun toting scumbags, truck driving asswipes, and food slinging pieces of shit, working privately in Iraq (and other military hot zones) at the expense of US taxpayer money.

[leftchick]

147. yep!

couldn't have said it better myself! :thumbsup:

[DemonFighterLives]

150. After reading all of this

That is one point I can agree with.
And the cheneys and rummys that hired them.
:thumbsup:

[Bouncy Ball]

138. It looks so damn random.

Why the hell are the contractors firing on those people in cars, anyway?

It looks like they're just driving along and they fire at cars behind them, then move on, do it again.

What is the purpose of killing like that?

[freedomburn]

139. OMG! What is this crap? How do we let this happen? n/t

[Oilwellian]

141. Two victims (graphic)

The dead bodies of two children lie inside the morgue of Baqouba hospital, Iraq, Monday, Nov. 21, 2005. U.S. forces mistakenly fired on a civilian vehicle outside of an American military base north of Baghdad on Monday, killing at least three people, including one child, a U.S. spokesman said. Five people returning from a relative's funeral, including three children, were killed and two others wounded, said Dr. Ahmed Fouad of the Baqouba city morgue. U.S. officials said they only knew of three deaths in the incident, including one child, and three others wounded. (AP Photo/Mohammed Adnan)

[HardWorkingDem]

144. Even if he was a "freeper" he made some valid points...

that are seemingly being ignored.

More information is needed about this video clip. It's not like the video shows pedestrians being shot or children being shot on a playground.

One thing that bothers me is when liberal friendly sites throw videos up like this with no real context.

I've read numerous articles about the tactics being used and the explanations given by the "guest" here are valid and should not be ignored.

[Bouncy Ball]

153. Yeah, his points about

it being ok to kill Iraqis sort of obscured his other points didn't they?

:eyes:

[HardWorkingDem]

156. Context is all....

There is a lot of context left out of that video and the points made about why those cars are getting shot at could make sense if we had more information.

Now, we certainly didn't like what happened to Howard Dean in Iowa with the so-called "scream" speech did we?

And are we any better when we try to use the same sort of methods that the Rethugs do?

My agreement with the poster was that here is a video clip that we know nothing about, but when examined differently, could tell a different story.

As for his other comments, please do not put his meanings in my posts.

[Bouncy Ball]

174. You know what I see on the video?

People in a vehicle randomly shooting at vehicles behind them.

How can that POSSIBLY be a good thing?

[HardWorkingDem]

178. Well, I don't see that....

through some own experiences I have seen where what is seen is not what really happened at all and in this video I'm not seeing what others are seeing. I am looking at it from a soldiers point of view and one who has been involved in instances of jeopardy.

And from these experiences, more information must be found and provided before we can make a judgment. Go back and look at the video again. You can see where in at least two sequences shots are fired into the roadway before the vehicles.

Also, we have no idea what intel these people had. Or, we have no idea how long these convoys have been followed. What if they had been followed for quite some time and the shots were fired as soon as the most safe opportunity arose.

There are just too many unanswered questions at this point.

[Oilwellian]

145. Tim Spicers World

Military contracts are big game. And one of the most notorious hunters is a former British soldier whose past business ventures include violating a UN arms embargo in Sierra Leone and unwittingly triggering a coup in Papua New Guinea. His name is Tim Spicer, and in March his London-based company, Aegis Defense Services, bagged a $293 million contract from the Pentagon to protect US diplomats in Iraq.

One might think that the government would be wary of awarding such largesse to a man with a dubious background. But not only did the Pentagon have no idea who Spicer was when they gave his company a huge contract, they didn't seem to care when challenged about it.

Five Democratic senators, led by Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts, protested the Aegis contract on humanitarian grounds, urging the Pentagon to reconsider the deal in light of Spicer's background. He is, they noted, a man with a remarkable talent for entangling himself in scandal. In August, they asked Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to review the Spicer deal. In a response last month, the Army admitted that its contracting officer was unaware of trouble spots in Spicer's past, but it refused to reconsider the contract.

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20050110&s=ackerman

[BikeWriter]

146. They liberated them.

:sarcasm:

[leftchick]

148. our Tax Dollars at work! Aren't you proud??

:puke: SICK mutherfuckers! :puke:

[leveymg]

155. We're looking at the future here in the US, if we don't prosecute this and

the bigger war crimes perpetrated by certain Americans in Iraq. If we don't restore the rule of law now, at home -- beginning at the top --this is a glimpse at the Right-wing death squads roaming the highways of the American future.

[HardWorkingDem]

158. What exactly do you know about this video?

How is this video, with what we know, comparable to a right-wing death squad?

When I saw this clip, the first thing that struck me was what I didn't see or hear as it was being characterized on the internet.

Before seeing it and reading about it I thought that this clip would show people driving by and shooting Iraqi citizens walking down the street or Iraqi school children on playgrounds.

My point is, this clip appears to show a fast moving car approaching a convoy and the convoy shooting warning shots at the vehicle and when the vehicle does not stop, it is shot and stopped.

Now, I certainly do not defend the attacking of innocent people, but more needs to be known about this video before conclusions are drawn.

[leveymg]

159. What I see is several cars being shot at, some of them approaching fast

and some not closing distance. It looks to me to be almost random sniping with automatic weapons.

I'd call it terrorism.

[HardWorkingDem]

160. This is why more information is needed...

because I see something completely different. I have read numerous articles about how the Iraqi people are fighting and the tactics they use and one of them is to attack convoys in this way.

From other accounts I have read where the people in these convoys use methods to signal not to approach, otherwise gunfire shall result.

There is just too much not known for those of us not even over there to make comments such as it's terrorism or that all mercenaries are pieces of shit.

[leveymg]

161. Agreed - this needs to be investigated by CID and/or FBI

By the way, your explanation may account for that Mercedes that ended up crashing into the abandoned taxi, but I do not see anything remotely threatening about the other occupied cars that got shot up.

I also looked at this skeptically. I saw a lot of sustained fire at vehicles that were keeping a distance.

[HardWorkingDem]

167. Agree too...

It does need to be investigated and if found out that these people were randomly shooting at people for the fun of it, then they should be prosectuted. But we need to know the full story first.

I'd like to hear the tape without the added music.

[izzybeans]

164. Nice try. You just did defend it.

[HardWorkingDem]

166. Have you ever been in combat? A fight for your life? Or anything...

anything where you were in jeopardy?

to put you in jeaopardy? I have and you know, for those not present or to have experienced such a thing, it is very hard to explain to those who have not. There are all sorts of things going on all around for 360 degrees. Sights, sounds, images, the environment.

And that is what I am saying about this tape: it does not show the full story and we should be careful about making assumptions before knowing all the facts.

Now, if they would have amplified the audio where we hear something like, "Hey, there is a car full of towel heads. Joe, see if you can hit that one with the big nose." Or, "Ten points if you hit the little kid in the back seat."

One more thing....when you say they are baiting or slowing down - how do you know there is not a car in front of the vehicle where the tape is being filmed from? There are just too many unsaid variables that need to be found out before a complete judgment is made of this tape.

And don't presume to state what I "defend" or don't "defend". Some people around here might have a different worldview than others due to their past experiences.

[izzybeans]

169. There was no combat in that video.

You just defended it. Twice. I'll say it again if you want me to.

[HardWorkingDem]

176. I hope that...

if you are ever involved in a questionable situation that you have a jury of 12 people who will be willing to look at all sides of the story before rendering a decision.

I am NOT defending criminality, but defending the need to get the entire story behind what went on.

Sadly, it seems like here at DU some do not want to provide the same protections to everyone that we demand for those of our own side.

Again, I use the Dean Scream speech example. I know that pales to this, but all of us were madder than hell that his "scream" was taken completely out of context.

In cases like this we need the entire context and not just an edited and poor quality video.

[izzybeans]

179. Contracters are non-combatants. period.

I do have a hard time believing you were in combat given you can't distinguish between the ROE and private mercenary killings. If you had honor you would.

[HardWorkingDem]

180. Tired of accusations....

Tell me, in this short video clip where are the "private mercenary killings"? There simply is not enough information to make that judgment.

I wonder what DU'ers would be saying if these images were collected from convoys where private contractors have been escorting teachers, doctors, or private civil engineers to locations in Iraq.

Have I been to Iraq this time around? No, I have not, but I was over there the first time around.

And my only point in all of this has been, let's get more information before we judge what is in this video tape. Obviously, a lot of arm chair quarterbacks here are making judgments when they have no idea what it is like over there.

And as I have said, there have been numerous articles about the tactics used by Iraqis in the attacking of convoys and private contractors in Iraq.

And believe me, if you pull up a segment of that tape where things like "hey, shoot that towelhead" or "ten points for the kid in the front seat" are heard, I will be the first screaming what an atrocity it is. But what I think this tape is, is a compilation of what happens when suspected insurgents are attacking contractors.

But I guess you'd rather have a bomb blow up in your rear end before you'd be comfortable to make the decision to take action.

[izzybeans]

163. They were baiting people. Throwing up warning flares, speeding

off and then when ahead, they would slow down or stop and then shoot anyone that approached them.

Fucking nazi fucks. I hope someone picks through the audio on that video and finds these sick bastards.

[Gregorian]

165. How is this going to be prosecuted?

The murderers are not military; Not in America; It's not officially a war, is it?


It's murder. The people in that video were citizens going about their own business. I can say with pretty good reason that they didn't know what hit them. They didn't know where the bullets were coming from. The flash bangs may have actually given them reason to speed up. Judging from the traffic on the other side of the roadway, this was a civilian highway under normal conditions.

[tomreedtoon]

168. Wha is the mindset of these ELVIS fans?

I can understand people being heartless, cruel, even sadistic. War breeds that kind of behavior, especially this war by this kind of person.

Did any of you recognize that particular piece of Elvis music? It's a reference to the train, "eighteen coaches long," bringing home the coffin with the singer's love inside it. (I think it's a variation of a song about the train that carried Lincoln's body to Washington.) Did the redneck Squidbilly scum that did this...think it was funny?

Look, if there are any filmmakers or potential filmmakers out there, people who want to do more than make crappy teenage slasher films or Woody Allen pieces about people talking in Manhattan drawing rooms...you have to make a film about these people. Seeing the real video is horrifying. But only a fictional film can answer the question of why this happened, to these people, and why they took such joy in it.

[Nimrod2005]

171. Someone needs to be on trial for this, Jesus Christ man...

[atfqn]

175. It is really hard to see this in any other light

than a bunch of reckless mercenaries randomly shooting cars. If this were a situation where they were in serious danger - why slow down? In a couple of shots you see cars speeding up to go around them, this indicates the road ways were at least partially open. If they honestly thought there were bad guys/terrorists/etc. - why not stop and check things out after shots have been fired and the cars are immobile? Finally I would have to say the most important observation in any of these events - why are there so many? Why is the camera well positioned and ready? Defend it all you like but this is outright premeditated murder.

[HardWorkingDem]

177. Tactics, tactics, tactics...

We simply do not know enough about this video to make conclusions. For example, if you were in the vehicle and believed the vehicle you just shot might be full of explosives, would you go back and check it out if you were able to disable it?

These people are in a guerrilla war where anything is possible. Iraqi children have been known to throw potatoes off of roofs because they resemble hand grenades and after Americans initially duck and then raise, they are shot at by Iraqi fighters.

The Iraqi fighters will send one person in an alley to fire rounds at passing motorists so when the passing motorists turn their attention to the lone gunman, the motorists will be attacked from the other side.

My points are that we here in America do not know what is going and a short, edited video tape can't tell us that. We must have more information before rendering judgment.

I am really disappointed in those here who seem to want to ignore finding all the facts in this case while screaming for the rights of people like Padilla (Don't get me wrong - I find the treatment of his due process rights to be atrocious. NO ONE should be denied due process).

Just because we disagree with something or it does not fit in our political persuasion does not mean it is okay for us to forgo due process. And I think this is a difference between us and the Rethugs.