Well, my parents' next cars will be Toyotas. No more Ford or GM.

[Deja Q]

They're pissed at what's going on.

And also the first thing they said when I called.

The collapse is nearing.

And I don't think any of us will be here in a couple of months.

Live and try to be happy while you can.

Let's pray it's thermonuclear. Otherwise the amount of long-term suffering is going to be horrible.

[flvegan]

1. Aren't GM and Toyota in bed together, anyway?

Sort of like Ford/Mazda?

I don't know the extent of profits hitting GM's bottom line, though.

Something for me to look into...

[ReverendDeuce]

4. Toyota licenses their first-generation hybrid stuff to the US makers...

Meanwhile, their sixth generation hybrid plant powers the Prius and Highlander hybrids as well as the Lexus hybrid.

[flvegan]

9. But also

I know that the Grand Am and Corolla have parts built in each other's plants. So, I assumed more.

[LeftyMom]

17. Yeah, they have a plant

(here in CA I think?) that made the Toyota Corolla and Chevy Prism. I think they make the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe there now.

:shrug:

[Atman]

39. Chevy Prizm IS a Corolla. Vibe is a Corolla wagon.

Anyone who'd pay more for a Toyota just because of the nameplate is nuts. Toyota and GM are so inter-connected, buying one over the other is simply a matter of name-plate preference and snobbery. A Corolla is $3000-$4000 more than a Prizm, but it's the same car.

[MercutioATC]

52. Actually, the Vibe is the Matrix.

[Atman]

54. Actually, it's both...

...Toyota...engineered the Vibe alongside the Toyota Matrix, much in the same way Toyota developed the Geo/Chevrolet Prizm as a version of the Corolla. The Vibe and the Matrix both use the new Corolla's platform, the powertrains from the Toyota Celica, and the same interior. They differ only in their sheetmetal and their corporate logos.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/wagons/2003pontiacvibe/

[MercutioATC]

56. Thanks! I didn't realize that.

:hi:

[jmowreader]

61. There are a few itty-bitty differences...

between a Prizm and a Corolla.

Chief among them is the alternator. The one on my wife's Prizm went out, so I went to a junkyard and bought one off the first Corolla I saw. Turns out Corollas have Nippondenso alternators and Prizms have Delco alternators--and the brackets are different between the two units. Yeah, I coulda gone back and got the bracket, but while I was standing there talking to the guy about returning the Nippondenso alternator, a rollback with a Corolla/Prizm-looking car that had been rear-ended drove past on its way into the yard. "Uhh...if there's a Delco alternator in that, can I have it?" Fortunately for me, there was.

But yeah, most of the car is the same. I needed to get new outside mirrors for it. Went back to the same junkyard and was told "oh yes, we have a Corolla but the mirrors are totally different. They won't fit at all." I went two miles down the road to the other junkyard I go to and pulled the mirrors off a Corolla. They fit just fine.

[Lusted4]

42. Fremont is the only one I know of n/t

[adarling]

50. yes, both worked on Geo together

thats a great car...mainly because it is a toyota corolla haha

[lonestarnot]

2. Yikes HypnoToad, I don't see any optimism whatsoever here.

Did you see where they are debating penalizing people who drive hybrids in the form of an additional highway tax?

[Egalitariat]

8. I don't think it's a penalty as much as a road funding source

Gas taxes are usually earmarked for road maintenance and construction, and the fact that a car is hybrid does not diminish its effects on roads.

If you burn less fuel, then the amount you pay the government to use the roads goes down. So they're counteracting that effect.

[Deja Q]

12. I bet the money raised by responsible hybrid owners goes solely to,

BIG OIL

The heathenous swine wouldn't surprise me. Not one iota.

[lonestarnot]

20. Well don't belly up just yet.

I know things are really bad and can get much worse, but my preference is to connect the down dots with the up dots and lately we are seeing more and more up dots. When we run out of oil we will be forced into alternatives. Horse and buggy days and candlelight dinners were not so bad.

[lonestarnot]

13. I call it a freaking penalty against conservation!

[MADem]

21. Ooooooh, that's got some potential, ya know!!!!

Played the right way, that will resonate more than "Death Tax" and all the other bullshit right-is-left/up-is-down buzzwords and phrases the GOP use!

[lonestarnot]

27. Let's burn it baby!

[Egalitariat]

45. That's as dumb as calling the income tax a penalty against achievement***

nm

[Deja Q]

11. I saw it.

The filth we have in public office is astounding. And I don't mean just the rethugs; too many Dems are in bed with the angels of satan too. By, of, and for the bottom dollar.

The rest of the world has got to be giving us more than just the raised-eyebrow response at this point.

Meanwhile more than a handful of Americans still think there's no problem and they will live through the upcoming upheaval. Best of luck.

How can I have any optimism? Any of us? So many reports of things going on. Connect the dots. I loved the game as a kid. As an adult, I'm not so keen. Still played it though.

I can't live without my sordid medications. And they in power have spelt it out quite clearly. When my parents of all people start to gratuitously volunteer information, I know it's far, far worse than even I had been thinking.

If I knew WHAT to do, things might be infinitely easier. But I do not. And my pervasive social disability renders networking difficult at best, despite having learned a lot over the years... I will always be far behind everyone else. And it's not what you know. It's who you know. (in this 'society' anyway)

[lonestarnot]

31. And the social disability of which you speak is?

[ReverendDeuce]

3. Domestic quality is down the toilet... and corporate ethics as well.

I jumped ships on domestics last summer. Ford and GM have really poor quality. Chrysler was making some strides until the Germans took over -- now they are not allowed to be very good, lest they take sales from Mercedes.

Keep in mind: this is not the problem of the American worker or the Unions. This is entirely a management problem.

Unfortunately for the Big Three, I reached the limit of my ability to tolerate their products.

[CatholicEdHead]

7. Take sales from Mercedes?

Read Consumer Reports and they are far from reliable. It is a internal German manufaturing myth.

[LuckyTheDog]

24. Not true

No, if you look at the most recent JD Power surveys, you will see that domestic quality is, in many cases, just about on par with the Asian imports and better than that of the European cars. But the perception is still bad and the U.S. makers have done a bad job of marketing their vehicles and designing products that excite consumers.

I don't know that there is any evidence that DCX is intentionally keeping Chrysler products lower quality. In fact, the evidence is the other way. Daimler made a huge investment when it bought Chrysler and it would be insane for them to do what you suggest. DCX's biggest quality problems are, in fact, in their Mercedes cars, not Chyslers or Jeeps. The top-of-the-line S Class is a great car. But it has been so plagued with reliability problems that Consumer Reports will not recommend it.

[ReverendDeuce]

40. Not entirely accurate...

JD Powers ranks customer satisfaction, if I recall. So yeah, I can see them being about on-par. People who buy Euro sedans are very, very picky people. If you look at long term quality, however, it's truly owned by the Japanese, followed by domestic, and then European. There are a handful of Japanese in the poor segment and a handful of domestics in the top segment, but overall the Japanese dominate the highest categories.

And they are handily beating the European's in their own game, that of precision engineered luxury machines.

As for my own tastes, maybe it's just the type of car I drive. I know there is nothing in the luxury sport sedan arena that can compare to the high-end Japanese and Euro sedans. In that area, the only competition is the Cadillac CTS, which comes in at or near last place in every review I've seen. Surprisingly, the Audis are not faring much better...

But that's a whole other thread. I could car talk all day long... they are a personal hobby.

[LuckyTheDog]

60. Gotta give the Japanese their props

While not all of their car companies are great (I once owned an Isuzu, what a POS car that was) Honda and Toyota make some great vehicles. And I've always loved Subarus.

But the American cars are getting better all the time and, in many cases, they are more stylish vehicles than the good, but somewhat bland Japanese cars.

[sendero]

70. Sorry..

.... but I disagree. These reports only cover the first few years of the life of a car. Now, if you are one of those dumbasses who buys a new car every 3 years, or worse leases, then the reports have some validity :)

However, take an 8 year old Toyota or Honda and compare it to an 8 year old Chevy and trust me, the T or H is the better car.

[sarcasmo]

37. Bought our second Saturn Vue because it has a Honda 250 engine.

[William Bloode]

5. They made a smart decision.

I won't own an American made car. I would love to, but truth be known every American car i have owned required 10x's the maintenance and upkeep to keep it running than comparable Japanese cars. I own a 81 Datsun 210 that has 300,000+ miles on it and can still be relied upon to crank and run without question.Has never had anything major done to it other than routine maintenance like tune ups, and oil changes, belts and 1 clutch kit. On the flip side i have rarely seen an American made car of the past 20yrs make it to or much past 100,000 without needing major repairs, like head work, new motor or trans.

I can see where yer comin' from to Ht. I often get that sinking feeling that we are way past the point of no return. With all the manufacturing jobs gone, illegal immigration, lowering wages, increasing costs of further education, shortage of oil, and lack of trying to find alternatives.. I find it hard to see the light sometimes. I know in my mind if we do make a turn around i will be waiting my whole life to see it turned back around.

Maybe yer right, a quick bright warm death may be preferable to what may be on the horizon.

[Deja Q]

15. Well...

Wait until the last possible moment before doing anything so irrevocable. :)

Maybe there is a plan in store for all of us and it's all one big show of pretend-incompetence. (now I'm dreaming, but I've got the right - and hope.)

[OnionPatch]

72. This has also been my experience

And I really HATE it. I wish I could buy and American-made car and feel confident it was of good quality. Every foreign car I've owned has run like a champ, even under adverse conditions with little upkeep while the American cars were the exact opposite. I very much want to support American companies and workers but I have to draw the line here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. We switched over about 10 years ago

We only buy Hondas and Toyotas now. And we have not regretted it.

[Democrats_win]

10. Link to graph showing big 3 market share decline

Middle of the page:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/06/A01-50668.htm

Some of the decline in the mid-90s may be misleading because they made more expensive SUVs but sold fewer of them so the market share declined even though they made great profits. By 2000 the price of gas went up and people stopped buying SUVs and the big 3 were in trouble.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. I absolutely love how the "brainiacs", the electronic engineers are

given wide berth to computerize that which should never be. To overcomplicate various parts of a system where there is no call for it... is in my mind next to criminal. To overcomplicate something in order to ensure your existence or necessity is SICK. I am sure that if there was a way to install computer control over a toilet handle they would be right there offering up their needless little widgets and gadgets.

I live with this sort of thing so I know of where I speak. Engineers are nuts, many of them at least, and that is just the way it is. Many of them should be treated like farmers, they should just be paid to NOT PRODUCE anything. It would be far cheaper in the long run.

[lonestarnot]

26. LOL! I have a fine engineer friend who is not nuts, and I see that you

qualified the statement, but still found it humorous that they should be treated like farmers and paid not to produce. Crack me up.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

28. I'm just sayin.... if this isn't true I'll eat some transistors.... nt.

[lonestarnot]

30. I do not disagree that they don't have life expectancy of products

calculated on a dime, but if we pay them not to produce, what happens to product ingenuity?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

34. My point is this. Can you improve oh, I don't know..say water? Or

perhaps round, can you improve or computerize "round"? Can you make a better square? I mean, they have gone overboard on the computerization of many machine systems that worked just dandy using mechanical systems... the net result has been that mechanics/technicians have sweat blood, perhaps been fired for incompetence, lost sleep, and created some insanely expensive bills for customers to swallow.

Yes, there are things that work better with computerization, engine management system, electronic fuel injection, even transmission controls... but when the air conditioning ducts have to be controlled by a computer, and that computer lies to the tech regarding the wherabouts of said ducts/doors, and there is no way to get a straight answer from the computer, then you have a serious problem that was generated by someone thinking that he could create a better square or circle or whatever it is that works the way it is supposed to without fiddling or tampering.

[lonestarnot]

58. Point well received!

[noahmijo]

16. I just bought a new Honda Civic (2006)

That car is more American than any so called American made car out there.

The only part in my car that is made in Japan is the engine. The rest off an assembly line in Ohio.

I know Toyota has the same thing going for the most part too.

"Drive 'Murican! Get a Chevy!!"


pffffff don't make me laugh yahoo man...

[lonestarnot]

22. Wooohoo noahmijo! A regular gasoline runner or a hybrid?

[noahmijo]

46. Regular Gas runner gets about 30-35 city mpg though

I was seriously considering the hybrid, but the thing is I wanted a little pep too. I figured I can't be sacrificing the environment too much by wanting just a bit of pep given that I still get better gas mileage than your average car on the road and it's rated ULEV II (in other words way below normal emissions)

I just took out for a little spin actually. Just got done getting gas and basically after driving a little over 180 miles it cost about $13 to fill it up (gas prices are around $2.40/gal here)

And I will confess I do sort of punch it sometimes when it's an open road and I'm not in a school zone.

The car itself is the Civic EX. I'll post some pics of me showing it off after the spoiler for it comes in and gets put on. :) I don't plan on decking it all out like the street racers do, but I have added a few little cool factor accessories here and there but nothing to really make me a cop magnet yet ;)

Yup but that's what I did all weekend went north up to Phoenix to wheel and deal for it-they just happened to have exactly what I wanted color and everything sitting in the lot. I got a pretty damn good deal too (Note to car buyers out there now's the time to get some damn good interest rates as I think most of them especially the Japanese car companies are running good rates for the holidays)

Sorry if i came off a little snobby but I just recall a co-worker from my last job once telling me that I'm a typical democrat for checking out Honda "Jap Crap" instead of going for an American car like a Chevy or a Ford.

Which is why I say who's laughing now? :evilgrin:

I've been a Honda person all my life for the most part, although this is my first "real" car purchase, I have ridden their motorcycles in the past and absolutely love them.

[lonestarnot]

59. I have an older one. Gets about the same, standard traney. Love it!

[MADem]

18. HUH?? Won't be here??? Who is gonna drop a bomb on all of us?????

China? And deprive themselves of their best market today, to say nothing of a future pool of sweatshop workers when their economic coup is complete?

The 'terrists?' What, are they gonna use SADDAM's WMDs? Ooops, he doesn't have any! The best they can manage is a dirty bomb, even with chunks of nuke weaponry from the former USSR.

The only thing that will drop on our heads is a bigass recession or depression....and then, the terrists won't be interested in us poor folk any more. You don't see them setting off bombs in Africa, where the custom in some quarters is to run around half naked.

Hell, the bottom dropping out will even solve the Mexican border issues--they'll all go home, where the economy is a hair better, and the culture is more compatible! At least the weather is pleasant!

Weatherstrip your house, try to conserve, use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without, save your money, think about combining households if that is practical for you...because recessions suck, and depressions REALLY SUCK. Ya gotta learn to pinch a silver dollah till the eagle shrieks in agony....

[Deja Q]

29. China holds a lot of our debt and a depression kills the market...

They'll want their money.

Though chances are, as US execs are working with Chinese execs, I don't see a nuke war coming.

Pity. Humanity deserves no less.

[MADem]

36. Well, they wouldn't nuke us then--they'll give us a bowl of rice every day

and put us in front of sewing machines, making track suits for the wealthy in Beijing....

Speak for yourself about us deserving to be nuked. I don't buy that at all. Just because a few assholes happen to be in power right now, there's no reason to give up the ghost.

Always darkest just before the dawn, now, ain't it????

[caelestissurf]

19. Really?

That pessimistic on this beautiful day in Hawaii would get you beaten up here.

I don't see any kind of collpase coming anytime soon. Tell you what I'll make you a deal, if there is no collapse by this time next year you have to do a hula dance. If you are right, you at least get to live in that nansecond before death, feeling good that you were right all along.

P.S. I drive a Scion TC myself, American cars have become total crap in the last 10 years.

[pitohui]

23. well aren't you just the little mary sunshine

come on, toad, the marvin the depressed android gag is getting a little old

we're all going to be here in a couple of months

toyota is a fine automobile, but you don't have to scare the crap out of people to sell them

[Deja Q]

32. Quite

and I'm going to enjoy them while I can. :party:

[rockymountaindem]

35. Yeah, seriously

We've been through worse. We'll get through this too. I'm not saying it's going to be easy or pretty, but humanity will not destroy itself over George Bush or Hu Jintao. Fantasizing about death is not a way to prolong life.

[Deja Q]

38. I took a short break...

looking at personals ads.

Definitely won't give up, I shall... /yoda :D

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Good choice. Why fatten GM or Ford wallets for junk?

[Aimah]

33. Toyota could afford to buy Ford and GM at once.

I drive a GM car now but the quality isn't on par with Toyota or Honda. My next car will probably be either of those.

[Delarage]

41. I'm done with Ford, too.

I have a 98 Taurus that is an utter piece of shit. Recurring electrical problems (dome light stays on, door ajar warning comes and goes, turn signals come and go, etc.) and other crap. Plus, 22 mpg isn't doing it for me. I freaking hate it and wish I hadn't bought it. Never again.

[tabasco]

63. Welcome to the club.

My last vehicle was a Ranger that started falling apart at 75,000 miles. I maintained the hell out of it too.

Now I have a Toyota and have had zero problems. The fit, finish and design are so much superior. Those who claim that US quality is on par must be luckier than me. I had US-made vehicles for 30 years and none of them were as reliable or well-made as my low-end Toyota.

[Neecy]

68. I always bought American cars...

Until I got tired of the short shelf life of 'em. I had a Ford that, while brand new, had about a gazillion things wrong with it and was constantly in the shop.

I finally broke down and bought a Toyota. It runs like a charm, but what's interesting is that the radio broke about six months after the warantee expired. I took it into the dealership, fully expecting to pay for a replacement, but they replaced it free of charge. I almost fell out of my chair when Toyota customer service phoned me a couple of weeks later to see if I was happy with the service at the dealership. That's never happened with any American car I've owned - for the service alone I'll stick with Toyota for good.

[insane_cratic_gal]

69. I have a 98 ford windstar

Nothing but problems since getting it!

2nd hand car.. granted but i've only put 12k miles on it.. bought it at 84k and already the head gasket is going.. the tire rods are gone.. the rack and pin steering needs replaced.. the door sensor doesn't always acknowledge when the door is closed.

It's a POS..

Ford refused to acknowledge the head gasket issue.. only accepts the 97 and 2000 as having issues.

Simply put they make shitty cars. I've been car shopping for the last month.. and guess what the majority of vehicles up for sale are? Yup fords.

I'll never make that mistake again.

[Mark E. Smith]

43. So much for supporting union made products

There are days you people sicken me.

[Solon]

44. Made in Mexico?

Don't make me laugh.

[William Bloode]

49. When those guys start making a car

That won't fall to shit in a few short years, i might think of supporting union made autos.

Also people like you tend to make my stomach churn as well. Why should i be derided for paying less for a superior product? Why should i feel guilty about purchasing a Japanese car made in the USA while other so called union companies crap is made in Mexico or elsewhere?

Save your sanctimonious bullshit, it won't fly on this issue. The big 3 are to blame with their horrible approach and lackadaisical attitude to the whole market. If they had focused on reliability, and quality instead of trying so hard to play keep up with the jones on the whole SUV issue, they may not be in the shape they are in today.

As far as union members themselves. I don't blame them for producing crap. They are given crap to produce and they do what they are told.

[MercutioATC]

53. Which is better? Buying a Toyota made in Ohio or a Ford made in Mexico?

Which purchase supports U.S. workers the most?

[jmowreader]

62. Okay, what are we supposed to do?

When the union workers are given crap products to make, we have the responsibility of telling the company that has the union employees making this crap "we don't want this. Give us something better."

[tabasco]

64. Sure, people who have to watch every penny

should go out and buy inferior and less efficient products.

Auto workers are not the only ones who need to feed their families.

[LincolnMcGrath]

65. I drive a 1990 Pontiac w / a quarter million miles on it.

Inferior my a**

Had a 1970 ford F100 I finally retired in 2000


Alas, I did have one Nissan, it replaced the Ford, and was returned under Illinois lemon law.

[MarsThe Cat]

47. "a couple months"..."thermonuclear"???

i'm not seeing it.

[kineneb]

48. happy with my little car

I own a 2000 Hyundai wagon, which gets around 30-32 mpg. It holds as much as most SUVs, which is important if one is a musician, and is far more comfortable. I looked at US cars at the time, and they were crappy and large. They still are.

As to the future, I have no clue. I am planning my garden for the spring and will plant several more fruit trees.

[wadestock]

51. The inability to make an efficient auto....

Is a direct reflection of the inherent inefficiencies in our society.

Look at the Lotus Elise...it has redefined the auto...an aluminum chassis....up to 40mpg and as fast as a Vette for just over 40K.
A car like this should represent the limits of what needs to be sold.

Meanwhile...take the same concept...aluminum chassis, low weight...the necessity of no more than 100hp for the average person....and you have a 15K 50mpg car for the masses.

The auto industry represents a grinding inefficient machine....consuming resources and producing a low quality product...repackaged year after year...only being made more gaudy and as if it's on steroids....for the unsuspecting, gulible public.

Technologically...it stinks. Conceptually....it stinks.
So don't obsess over who's going to give you this low quality piece of chit product.

Don't open up your wallet and buy into the insanity. I drive a Supercharged Thunderbird that gets near 30mpg on the highway, has the performance of a vette with simple mods, and costs about $1500 on the used car market. The last one I purchased for $850.

Buy used, don't buy new....and put them all out of business.

[Chicago Democrat]

55. Lets hope its not quite that bad...

I would settle for some sort of merger? maybe . Toyota/Ford and Honda/GM


I'm keeping the GM bond (which used to be A and now are D 'junk' status)


My plan for GM/Ford

1) Democratic sweep/ National Health Care. Pension reform/bailout the PBGC WITHOUT forcing all our big companies to go bankrupt. Pension bailout in exchange for all of management to be FIRED! Engineers too. Anyone over 40 has got to GO!

2) Fire all the execs and engineers over 40. as part of bailout, basically make goverment a partner for pension/health care bailout.

3)Really go for Hybrid. Invent one or pay Toyota for it

[meisje]

57. Bunch of Union Busting Knuckleheads

and btw, there is no collapse coming, even if you do want one

[SuperWonk]

66. Good point -

My plan for GM/Ford
1) Democratic sweep/ National Health Care.


This reminds me of something I read this week from the WSJ...

According to A. T. Kearney, last year General Motors spent $1,500 per vehicle on health care. By contrast, Toyota spent only $201 per vehicle in North America, and $97 in Japan. If the United States had national health insurance, G.M. would be in much better shape than it is.

http://select.nytimes.com/2005/11/25/opinion/25krugman.html?8hpib=&pagewanted=print

It would be hard for anyone to compete under these circumstances. And this is just a small piece of the deck that is stacked against american automakers.

[TX-RAT]

67. American union car builders will be happy to here that.

Thats just the kind of attitude we need.

[Loonman]

71. Then why bother buying Toyota if we've only got "a couple of months left"?

Duh.

Loosen the tinfoil hat, too.