the soldiers. do they have a right to complain?

[mopaul]

much is being made of the negative comments made by a few weary soldiers in baghdad on the evening news shows. one guy saying he'd like to ask for rumsfeld's resignation. all through history, soldiers have griped and moaned, and rightly so. some of the freepers are really pissed at this development. they are even calling the complaining soldiers nasty names. they've gone from support the troops to court martial the whiners. and i understand the army does not look positively on such vocalizations.

these men and women, should they shut up and do their duty, or should they speak up, as patriotic fighters? they are the ones putting themselves in harms way, not the liars in d.c. don't they have some special right to complain, given the situation? they volunteered of course, but they were lied to about the most monstrous things. don't they have more than anyone, a right to complain?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. They took an oath

to support, protect, and defend the Constitution. Not Bush. Not the freepers. Since the Bill of Rights includes freedom of speech, seems to me that the troops are using their Constitutional rights.

[Bandit]

34. Soldiers have no rights

When they enlist they relinquish all rights and become Government Property without the bill of rights as their protector. They are not allowed to politicize anything. They can not talk against their government or their governmental leaders. Hell they can't even get a sunburn without being punished. Politics is "forbidden" in the military except for Rush Limbaugh and O'Reilly. Why can these two political gas bags be allowed to spout their politics daily with no counter? IMO as long as Limbaugh is on the Armed Force radio the soldiers have the right to comment on what kind of Bullshit they are being fed. We need to ask this question over and over until Rush is off armed Forces radio. The military should not be politicized period.

[Loonman]

2. Mixed opinion

I know the soldiers are frustrated, and they've got nobody to vent to, but I'm not sure about doing it on national TV.

Not like there is any measure of comparison, but the guys in the woods outside of Foy during the Battle of the Bulge griped a lot about the cold, lack of supplies and thinly stretched lines, but they got the job done, anyway.

I'm sure if you went back far enough, there were Roman Centurians bitching about being away from home for 10 years while Rome conquered the Germanic territories and Great Britian. I sure plenty of people bitched about Hannibal while he was trying to get his elephants over the Alps.

Abazaid can talk all he wants, but if his officers and non-coms are letting morale slip, they should have done something to avoid that earlier.

[Frederic Bastiat]

6. C'mon the US Army ain't the Roman Legion

Even though Bush* and the neo-CON brigade think so, these folks did not sign their lives away. I worked with the 4th Infantry Division (by far the most pampered soldiers I ever met) a while back and if you think the bitchin' out of 3ID is bad now wait until these guys spend a few more months out there in the desert heat.

What we are witnessing right now is the troops slowly lose all faith in their leadership and brass and by extension the Army.

[Loonman]

7. Obviously not

But what are the officers and non-coms doing if these guys are in front of cameras?

[Frederic Bastiat]

11. Junior officers will let a lot slide

In a theater as big as Iraq a junior officer (CAPT and below) is a step up from being a private. They are at the point where the military is still a career choice and they can still opt out - and I predict after this tour many will. (The Army was already facing problems retaining junior officers, this deployment will seek to make it worse.)

Any officer above the rank of Capt. in the Army might as well have had a frontal lobotomy, these guys (with a few exceptions) will never stray too far - very few of them care beyond their egos.

Non-com's of course are the one's holding this cluster f_ck together.

[camero]

49. You're right. It's a four year enlistment.

And I'll take a gander that as morale plummets, alot of these troops will not be re-enlisting, and we will have a serious manpower shortage for all the wars that shrub wants to have others fight.

With a 1 year rotation, yes they do have a right to complain.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. In this day and age there is no excuse

for not even meeting these soldiers basic needs. The 3rd ID has been in country since last Sept. They were the front line of the invasion. They have been told at least twice, that they would be going home and now they are told that no one can even give them a new date. Now they are finding out their CIC is a pathological liar and that the reason why they are in Iraq had little to do with protecting America.

Add this to the fact that they haven't even eated a vegetable for over a month and they all have the runs as a result. They are getting killed and attacked on a daily basis by Iraqi guerillas. They sure has hell have a right to bitch.

Besides there has been some discussions around here, that the no bitching about W rule, doesn't apply to the rank & file.

[JHB]

16. The guys at the Bulge knew they were part of something bigger...

...and they didn't have their "go home" orders constantly yanked away, "Catch-22"-style.

Of course, sending them home would mean calling up Reserve or NG units to replace them, but a new round of call-ups would be an admission that the malAdministration underestimated troop requirements, and we all know the Bushies don't admit error for nothin'.

From other reports it sounds like there's also a serious problem with officers not seeing to their men, and with getting supplies to outlying units that need it most.

[greatauntoftriplets]

3. I think they were terrribly naive to think (as I just read ...

...in the Chicago Tribune) that the victory would be short and sweet and they would come home quickly to a hero's welcome.

Yes, they have a constitutional right to complain. I am just sad for them that they did not see the implications of what could -- and is -- happening now.

[julka]

4. sorry, but NO!

can you imagine if this were WWII?

mommy, bring me HOME! those people are SHOOTING at me all the time!

and they have better tanks and artillery and machine guns than we do!

and last time I looked, nobody got drafted, did they?

this is not to say that EVERY single one of them shouldn't be complaining, since they were LIED to WRT the reasons they were there.

keep it up, all of you. don't ever stop.

since the public is so soundly behind you, if you make a big enough stench, the ignorami who support our pRes may start having second thoughts.

and if the media get off this Niger story, and concentrate on all the other lies that creep has been telling since he fell off the cradle, perhaps we can be rid of him in 16 months. has he been in 'office' that long????

[punpirate]

14. Pardon?

Since there have been soldiers, it has been the soldier's right to complain, as Ernie Pyle put it.

No, they aren't draftees, but what has that got to do with it? You're not the one getting shot at by the populace they were told would embrace them and shower them with rice and rose petals. They are.

If you'd spent any time in the military, you would know that bitching in the ranks is a given, regardless of who's in the President's chair. It has to do with what being in the military means. If the people in charge make that experience even worse, they're fair game, including the current asshole in the Oval Office.

"Mommy, bring me HOME!" ??? What planet did you just crash-land from? That's a straightforward insult to people doing something you know nothing about.

I think an apology is in order.

US Army 28 Jul 67-29 May 70.

[julka]

18. I know all that, and spare me the "were you there" bit

I can READ, friend. If you served, I honor that, but I also HONOR those that were brave enough to REFUSE to serve our criminal endeavor in Viet Nam, just as much as those who chose to fight for the wrong reasons in the wrong place, just as they do today.

and my father was in WWII, got as ASS blown off, literally, right before Bastogne

he told me what the army was like, and how much he loathed the bureaucarcy, and how they all bitched and moaned all the time.

read Band of Brothers for a very expansive discussion of how much the soldiers HATED HATED HATED the army, but loved our country, and each other. they blew off steam, with each other, and their officers allowed it, up to a point

>>>>>>But we in it shall be remembered
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.
For he today that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition.

I memorized that, in my dead father's name. I've wearing his dog tag all day, every day, from the day I realized that he fought WWII IN VAIN, because we're now "governed" by a bunch of FASCIST thugs that highjacked our democracy.

and I also posted here that I do believe that the UCMJ has VERY severe restrictions on what a soldier CAN say, and I do believe they're being cut an awful lot of slack.

many of them have mentioned that they're afraid of speaking their minds. now, if it's OK for them to do so, why are they scared?

and you conveniently ignored this part of the post for which you want me to apologize:

"this is not to say that EVERY single one of them shouldn't be complaining, since they were LIED to WRT the reasons they were there.

keep it up, all of you. don't ever stop.

since the public is so soundly behind you, if you make a big enough stench, the ignorami who support our pRes may start having second thoughts."

what about that? should I apologize for that, too?

[punpirate]

19. Read the UCMJ.

They cannot be courts-martialed for those views, and that's good.

And, you didn't address my objection to "Mommy, bring me HOME!"

You owe an apology for that remark. _You_ don't know.

You don't know.

[julka]

26. something I do not know?

meaning what, exactly?

like I do not know what secret, unknowable evidence tony blair has of nuclear purchases?

must I trust your word?

if I can trust yours, I CERTainly trust my own father's first?

you, apparently were in the service.

were you wounded like he was (two purple hearts)?

did you spend a year in military hospitals like he did?

are you on 80% total permanent disability, like he was?\

he also died, alone, in a VA nursing hospital, FWIW. we tried to get there, but it happened too fast.

I know enough, friend.

they have the fear, yes, but they have respite. they can get away. they don't have to cower in cold, filthy, wet foxholees, their clothes freezing on them, so that the cracking ice gave their positions away as they moved through the woods, searching for the enemy. little food, less ammunition. ALWAYS cold and wet. always.


I can go into detail about France, Holland, Belgium, if you like, but what's the point. I wasn't there. big deal.

[julka]

27. and it appears that I'm wrong about the UMCJ, so they DO have the right

OK? So I'm wrong about that......didn't realize that officers only were subject to that stricture.


let me just make it clear that I hope they conTINUE to keep complaining, just like I said initially

OK?

still find it difficult to empathize much with them, knowing what I know.

[NewGuy]

21. Soldiers can bitch...

However, they normally bitch to each other which is perfectly legitimate. The oath they take includes a section about obeying the orders of the officers appointed over them. That is explained to them to include non-coms, officers and civilians of high rank in the pentagon, as well as the president. If they wish to go public with their bitching, they need to get out of the service first.

I know this is clearly understood by serious NCO's and Officers. I am not 100% sure that they can be disciplined for this but they certainly will get poor performance marks and are unlikely to get promoted again. In the military as most places, it is important to 'Ride for the brand.'

[spotbird]

30. How do you know what the soldiers did in WWII?

First of all, there was a real reason to go to war then. It wasn’t to serve some pathetic emotional deficiency of the Commander and Chief or to implement an ill conceived plan for modern day colonialism.

Second of all, there weren’t cameras with microphones there to record off the cuff frustrations, but if there were I’m sure some would have been caught.


You really haven't the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

[julka]

33. what do YOU know about it? how old are YOU? 80?

there are these things called books. why don't you pick one up and try to read one.

and if you've read anything ELSE I've posted here, you'd see that maybe I actually MIGHT know a little bit about what happened to at least a FEW soldiers during WWII.

84th infantry, know it all.

what's on a GI dog tag from 1944? know it all

I know.....I'm wearing one.

boo hoo hoo for me: my parents' anniversary is today, and my dad would've been 80 two weeks ago, so this isn't the best time for me to get involved in this.

one last thing, knowitall

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6451&forum=DCForumID70&archive=

[spotbird]

35. You trash today's military then

get pretty damned thin skinned when you are called on it.

The difference is that the men and women in Iraq are suffering and dying for a cause which is not just or necessary and will ultimately make the our country less safe. The reasons they have been given for their sacrifice are bogus and they know it. It shows enormous courage to speak out and for that bravery I am proud of those soldiers.

If there were even the smallest justification for this horrific endeavor then perhaps the soldier’s moral would be higher. These men are being led by the most corrupt administration in history. Hell Rumsfeld can’t even find an active duty General to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. http://www.truthnews.net/world/2003070045.htm

So if you know so much about history, why can’t you apply that context to the situation at hand? There are differences between WWII and the invasion of a country who posed no immediate threat. It is time more in the military make that truth clear. To compare the two military actions is a diversion, nothing more. How is it that you
can’t make that distinction?

To say that these men deserve to endure inadequate military leadership which forces them into harms way in the name of colonialism and some kind of psychological pathology on the part of the President simply because it is a volunteer military is another distraction. Their right to be outraged at feeble amateurish leadership is diminished in no way by the fact that they volunteered, in fact the breach of trust they feel must be even more profound then it would have been if they were drafted. They joined the armed forces because they believed the leaders would act in the nation’s best interest, and it has failed them in the most fundamental way.

[julka]

37. called on what?

I don't disagree with anything you say regarding this administration.

and what's the difference between YOUR thin-skinned reaction and mine?

I guess you're more entitled to your opinion than mine, and/or yours is more correct?

whatever you say.

just because this invasion was totally unjustified, and you've summed up better than I how egregiously the criminals in DC have behaved during their power grab doesn't mean I have to support the VOLUNTEER troops who chose to go over there.

too bad for them if they're too young and inexperienced to know better.

sorry, but I empathize much more with the thousands of Iraqis killed this year, the HUNDREDS of thousands we killed twelve years ago, and the unknown thousands slaughtered at the hands of Hussein when they rose up at 41's behest, then Schwartzkopf (or was it Powell?) let Saddamm's helicopters mow em down.

life is hard......nobody forced them to join the army.

[oneighty]

41. I understand your sincerity

and applaud you for it. Also I like the respect you show your father. That is good.

However bitching, pissing and moaning was a way of life in my Navy.

Ther were a few times that I was so scared of being killed

I might have called on my Mommy or some other ancestor, any ancestor

to "Bring me home". Perhaps you might also. You never know.

180

[julka]

44. I agree,

so was it wrong of me to bring it up?

I feel sorry for our soldiers, but only up to a point.

again, they made a choice.

now they live (or die) with it.

so did the WEHRMACHT.

what our soldiers are doing there is no better than what they did in Poland, Belgium, Holland, etc.

never mind......I'm getting.....never mind

[peace4all]

5. a right?

sometimes it becomes a duty. And in many statements I've heard, speaking out should not be deflected as mere "complaining".

[julka]

8. I'm pretty sure the UCoMJ has something in there.........

that seriously curtails first amendment rights.

somebody will have the answer to that one soon.

I think they busted a general who mouthed off about Clinton.

[NYC]

13. Someone posted the rules on DU.

They are not permitted to criticize their officers (whether commissioned or not). They ARE allowed to criticize civilians, such as Rumsfeld.

The commissioned officers are not permitted to criticize Rumsfeld. The rules were posted last night, possibly by Rapid Creek.

[trof]

17. UCMJ

Uniform Code of Military Justice
It would appear that non-coms and enlisted are exempt from 888.ART.88.
Unless they have standing orders not to criticize.

888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

889. ART. 89 DISRESPECT TOWARD SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER
Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

[Punkingal]

10. Yes, they have a right to complain......

this situation can's be compared to WWII...we were attacked then. When most, maybe all, of these people joined up, this country had never had a policy of pre-emptive war. That makes it an entirely different proposition for them. All of us are furious about being lied to by this administration, but at least those of us at home aren't putting our lives on the line for the lies. Hell yes, let them complain!

[DODI]

15. Yes and No

I come down on the side of the troops. The main reason it seems for the 3rd's "complaining" is the promises of a return home. The keep yanking their chain. That is enought to kill morale. The one year tour of duty thing seems a reasonable response. Let the troops know what to expect. But there are more issues here than telling them they are going home and then changing it. They are not supplied properly and were not from the get go. Rummy's light and fast thing does not work in a peacekeeping situation. Won't I don't like about it is how it may play with the rest of the world, especially with those who would do us harm. I believe that if there were a direct connection between 9/11 and Iraq we would have a different story with these troops. They would have something to fight for. But every day the more lies of this adminstration are exposed and it hurts them.

[Hubert Flottz]

20. If they voted for Bush they shouldn't bitch!

I feel sorry for the ones that didn't vote repub!

When you are a US citizen under the UCMJ you obey direct orders! If you don't you can be punished! If the Brass says "Shut Up", you say, Yes Sir! If the Brass says Charge You Charge!

If Bush keeps starting wars to increase his reelection chances you MOVE OUT SMARTLY! If Bush keeps attacking other countries, people will once again be forced to live under the UCMJ not by choice, but by the draft!

The sad facts about the UCMJ are what makes the Sad Sacks unhappy! The other side of "Standin' Tall And Lookin' Good" is the side that's Hell!

I kinda' know how they feel believe me! When the Chaplain is your only legal option, it's like depending on Jerry and Pat, a moot point!

[nannygoat]

12. I think so, since this war was based on a bunch of lies

their "contract" to not criticize the thief-in-chief should be declared null and void. Also, if they are reservists, they sure never counted on having to do anything like this...

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

22. their biggest sin

was to mention kellog, brown and root. i think it was a soldier's wife who complained that her husband was there to protect kellogg's interests.

[Bok_Tukalo]

23. The Right's sudden contempt for the soldier

The Freeper Right has always seemed to have the "Fantasy Soldier" when they discuss the military; the soldier who insults the French, loves Republicans, and is heroic and true to the Freeper value system.

These guys that were grousing shattered their little fantasy.

That being said, I personally think they should have kept their complaints to themselves and their comrades.

[stanwyck]

40. Excellent point!

I think quite a few of us have "fantasy soldier" complex. From the mythology of the movies and print. These people should speak out. They're Americans. It's very important that we know what they're thinking. I'll say it again: don't stereotype the soldiers. They're NOT all Republicans. I know. My son is a Marine. AND a liberal. Yes, it's possible. We've let the conservatives hijack the military and Christianity as their own. Let's take them back.

[usual_suspect]

24. No they don't.

At least they didn't in my Army (1969-1971). A draftee never let an RA complain. They asked to be there. I didn't hear any complaining when they were put up on pedestals as warrior gods. Sorry guys, that's the price you pay.

[Classical_Liberal]

36. They clearly had that right during the Clinton Administration

infact the republicans encouraged it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=52646&mesg_id=52646&page=


It is also very undemocratic for Bush to give speeches and do photo-ops in front of people who can't criticize him. He is a weenie.

[LiberalLibra]

25. Why would the "no right to question/complain" be affective when.....

....our soldiers were lied to from the beginning??? Couldn't a good "Consitutional lawyer" argue successfully that the lies themselves null and voided any such "no complain" clause????? Any good lawyers in the house????

[Cujo]

28. of course the soldiers have a right to complain

They joined the army thinking they were serving their country, not the wants and desires of some greedy fat oil bastards. the goddamn freeper trash that calls them names should be forced to go over there and serve.

[Mari333]

29. I printed out Bush's AWOL record

and ALL the records of the chickenhawks in the GOP that are running this Quagmire From Hell...gave them to my son in the National Guard to take to his military unit weekend..

It opened a few eyes!!! My son said "The hell with this...Im out in November, and Ill never go back in."

[HootieMcBoob]

31. I pulled out my old "smart book"

really it's the Soldier's Handbook. It's the little book you get during basic and are expected to carry around with you everywhere and basically memorize. Mine is beat to shit and held together with tape now but I seemed to remember that there was something in there regarding this and it says:

Because of your special responsibilities as a member of the armed forces, special standards govern your conduct whether you are on or off duty. You are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) as well as the laws governing other citizens and residents of the United States.

You are expected and encouraged to carry out your oblications as a private citizen. It is hoped that you will register, vote, and express your personal opinions on political candidates and/or issues.

So that the military remains free of involvement with any particular political party, your political activities are somewhat restricted while you are on active duty. You may not, for instance, take part in partisan political campaigns or conventions. You may take part in political rallies or meetings or in public demonstrations provided you do not wear your uniform or participate during duty hours. You must make sure that people do not think you are representing the Army at any of these activities.

Although it's a little unclear about this particular thing (bitching to the media about their commander in chief and the Secretary of Defense, etc. while on duty). It looks to me as if they really are not supposed to be badmouthing their mission or their leaders. It could be considered political since they all are the highest ranking members of the republican party.

Do I understand why they are? Hell yes I do! And, frankly I encourage them to keep it up. This is not WW2. These soldiers are being taken advantage of in a terrible way. They're being killed to serve in an illigitimate war and to line the pockets of the gop and their campaign contributors. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and take a chance. They might be disciplined. I hope it's just a chewing out and nobody get's busted down a rank or anything worse than that though. But I say keep it up. Let those bastards know how you feel.

[Sperk]

32. Exception to the RULE!!!!! Smirky is an illegitimate Pres and LIED

about going to war! Gives the GIs more of a right to gripe. Plus Idiot Boy and his criminal crew let (did) 9/11-truly a diabolical group. So all things considered, I think they have every right to gripe.

[havocmom]

38. If 20 oz of water is correct, yep, they can hollar!

And we certainly want them home and talking to us before the next election.

[Blue_Chill]

39. They can only complain about Democrats

Soldiers complained about Clinton and not much was done about it, but if you don't worship the GOP as a soldier you risk destroying the "GOP supports our troops" myth so they do whatever they can to shut you up.

Bush and the GOP have screwed over the enlisted men every chance they've had, yet they still pretend to be "for the troops!"

I think a strong Dem needs to add "I will support the troops and not shut them up!" into his campaign comercials. I would also like to see them rant on about how Bush reduced the money going to enlisted men in favor of officers......the GOP support the high class where ever they find it.

ALso I'd like something done about the 'we only promote those that support the GOP' trend in the armed forces. I have several friends in that say the fastest way to be passed over for promotion is to show support for the democrats.

[stanwyck]

45. This attitude could change

I agree that the GOP has had a lock on the military...politically. BUT. We don't have to concede. We could win over many of the troops. And Iraq might give us the chance. The irony is, the GOP has the reputation of being more supportive of the military. And they aren't. They aren't veterans. But they did cut veterans' benefits. Gore, Daschle, and Kerry ARE veterans. Democratic leaders need to speak for the troops and quit letting the GOP claim sole ownership of our soldiers. Guys like Cheney need to be exposed for the users they are. Cheney received how many deferments during Viet Nam? Three? OK. That's his right. And who, really, can blame him, given the circumstances. BUT. Now, he's sending thousands to the Middle East to protect his business interests. The troops need to fully understand the dynamics of what they're being asked to do. Follow the money. Let the troops know how the chickenhawk Republicans are pushing for war/occupation for greed. The GOP are not the "tough" guys they pretend. They're businessmen/women. The soldiers need to see their mock bravado for what it is: self-interest.

[DeathvadeR]

42. Anybody in their right mind would complain...

considering the conditions they are under. And im only talking about luxury type conditions. places to sleep, the Temperature , The food , The lonliness , Walking around like rent-a cops , Digging all those holes(cause they gotta be here somewhere) and the uncertan outcome of the future, Etc.........

But when they get into oooo they are killing us, I'm scared!!! , I have no Sympathy. The conditions suck, yes, and the media is all over it, making it sound like its a warzone. They now are saying Its gurrilla Tactic Fighting, Bitch... You want to see a warzone, Try being a blackman growing up under ghetto like conditions.. Ever major city has a huge area that classifies as one and more people die under these type of conditions each day then you can imagine....


Maybe they should have Trained in South Central LA before going to Iraq.

[Dookus]

43. What I found most powerful....

were the WIVES complaining. I hope they keep it up - nobody can stop them. They can call Bush a lying asshole if they want.

Also powerful was the vehemence with which one wife responded when asked if her husband would re-up. She made it very clear that he was out at the first opportunity.

I hope a lot more of these spouses speak out.

[stanwyck]

46. Oh, Yes!

Let the media keep showing all those young good-looking women with their adorable little kids. The general public eats that up on the reality shows. And this is REAL. That kind of exposure could go a long way to win hearts and minds. Was it William Randolph Hearst who said: Give me a dog, a baby, and a pretty girl and I can sell anything? Keep those video clips coming. Let's turn the tide on this misguided, illegal invasion/occupation.

[Karenina]

47. Complain?

Where the hell is Popeye when you need him?

That's all I can stands cuz I can't stands no more.

Whip out the spinach.

[opihimoimoi]

48. Complaints usually follow suggestions/hints/imput that fall on deaf ears

The Team that works/plays/fights together usually has the better odds.

In a Team, communications must be in all directions. That goes for hints to gripes and all else inbetween.