I'm confused, didnt Kerry lose to the worst president in history?

[Lost4words]

I know some will say the election was manipulated, or stolen, and I agree. But didnt JK have a responsibility to address this and to rally his supporters post election?

It seems that many here would fully support another nomination for JK.

I have great respect for Senator Kerry, but I dont recall seeing him walk on water. And I do recall a failed campaign and grossly ineffective response to repuke smears.

Please dont mention BCCI and Iran Contra, they arent relevant.

[acmavm]

1. Man, you must feel real masochistic this morning. Not that I don't agree

with you but I don't think I'd have started a thread like this unless I had a full suit of armor on.

[Lost4words]

2. My point exactly.

[Lost4words]

7. I got the same thing when I said Lance Armstrong was just an athlete

Duck and cover

[acmavm]

18. Yeah I suppose you did. I think it's funny though. Plus, I don't think

that Lance is such a bid deal either. Sorry the guy had cancer and all that, but I'm not impressed either.

But what I'm wondering is if, on a day that you get out of bed in a cranky mood, you post something like this? It could get you some responses from the die-hard Kerry supporters who would love to see him run again. (Heaven forbid.)

[triguy46]

17. Its friday. Let's think happy thoughts! The weekend is near!

:beer:

[Swamp Rat]

48. It's a little early in the day for that, though I'm sure Bushler would

disagree. :D

[triguy46]

65. Well, its the cocktail hour somewhere!

which is what I used to say in my hard drinking days...hic.

[Roxy66]

3. I like Kerry...but I pray he doesnt run. Not a good nominee

I....fall asleep when he talks. I think he has a wonderful message and has the right ideas.....he is just the wrong vehicle to deliver it. We need an unknown, outspoken, and strong candidate this election. Sorry, I just want to win. Our Country cannot afford to go down this path any longer.

[Mass]

4. I love flamebait threads. This one is definitively one of them

Useless but you must be bored, this morning.

I would be happy to see Kerry run again, but dont feel like telling you why.

[mattclearing]

57. So much so that almost no one is taking the bait. n/t

[DistressedAmerican]

5. Forgive Me. I Have Never Done This Before. But...

:popcorn:

Not that I disagree. Just...

:popcorn:

[Richardo]

6. More people voted against Bush than any other president ever.

More voted for Kerry than voted for Reagan in his biggest landslide.

If 60,000 votes in Ohio had gone the other way and we'd be defending President Kerry against the non-stop media onslaught and second-guessing right now.

[Lost4words]

14. And I so wish that were the case, I gave my all to candidate Kerry

and would have taken to the streets had he asked.

[blm]

21. Had he the evidence necessary he would have asked.

Blame Terry Mac for not believing in machine fraud and not securing the voting machines BEFORE the election - cuz that's the ONLY time it can be dealt with.

[fasttense]

15. Richardo - just love your puppy. Beagles rock!!n/t

[bonzotex]

19. if "Ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts....

And more votes were counted for Bush than any other Prez in history.

How the votes were counted is still suspect. Where was Kerry when it mattered?

I like Kerry. I worked for his campaign, gave money, got out the vote for him.

No Dem candidate ever had such a unified coalition of groups and people working for them, nor nearly as much money.

Bush is still moistening a chair in the Oval office. Tell me why we would want to run Kerry again?

[bonzotex]

8. You sum it up very well

Kerry is a good Dem and a fine Senator. He would have been a good president. He had his shot. He will never be President now.

Why do people keep wanting to climb back on this horse?

[blm]

27. We get harassed for discussing Kerry's actions as a senator.

We get harassed for discussing his actions as a Small Business Comittee member.

We get harassed for disvcussing his actions as an environmentalist.


We get harassed for discussing his withdrawal plan for Iraq.

We get harassed for correcting blatant lies about Kerry and his 35 year public record.

We rarely bring up any mention of 2008.

Threads like this do to take potshots at him and his supporters.

[bonzotex]

40. yeah, potshots...fair enough

So defend Kerry and his ideas. It ain't gonna kill us to discuss the good and bad of his campaign so as a party we can do it better in 06 and 08.

Kerry is not going anywhere. He'll be here to fight all the important battles to come. Should he do it as a Pres candidate again?

[blm]

49. Only time will tell. But it shouldn't be determined by those who depend on

false memes and inaccurate recitations of history for their information.

[bonzotex]

58. We can handle it...

The party the relies on "false memes and inaccurate recitations of history" is the Republican. They are going to go down hard.

We need to make that fall as painful and debilitating as possible and replace the suckers with good Democrats at all levels.

The Democratic party can handle frank discussions about candidates. It makes us stronger, not weaker.

[blm]

63. Be thankful there are those of us out there to counter memes and lies.

And we step up to do it for all Dems being targeted with them.

[Lost4words]

68. this is where you sound foolish blm

[blm]

72. Then point out the many Kerry 2008 threads in GD/GDP started by supporters

of John Kerry over the last 6 months and prove my foolishness.

Because I can point out many threads started to discuss his current actions that almost always end up in antiKerry attacks on him and his supporters.

[Lost4words]

67. No you dont, you have a persecution complex me thinks.

[blm]

74. All one needs to do is read.

And I find it odd that you tell me you crafted this thread with me in mind and then accuse me of a persecution complex - actually, it's more funny, HAHA funny, then odd.

[Deja Q]

9. Voters are geniuses...

Geniuses for being led.

[Connie_Corleone]

10. I hope he doesn't run again.

That idiot O'Brian on CNN this morning was still joking about the "flip flop" voted for it before voting against it crap again.

I'm looking for someone new like a Feingold or Warner.

[Mass]

30. Or Ben Affleck!!

[CatWoman]

52. funny

I watched this program early this morning, ""The Declining Bush Mandate" (was on CSpan2; you can watch on line at http://www.cspan.org/videoarchives.asp?CatCodePairs=,&ArchiveDays=100) and Larry Sabato, the moderator, said the American people seem to be joining John Kerry in that
"they voted for the war before voting against it".

I found that pretty "profound".

[mattclearing]

59. That IS funny.

Someone should start pushing that one. It would do wonders for Kerry's reputation.

[blm]

11. If you think IranContra and BCCI aren't relevant today that's your first

problem with reality. Both 9-11 and our Iraq policy are rooted deeply in those scandals.


Are you saying that any other Democrat would have come up with better policy positions and debated better than Kerry? Name them.

Are you saying that all the DNC and Dem spokespeople would have challenged the RNC and RW media machine more competently with another Democratic nominee?

Are you saying that the Left=leaning and objective media WOULDN'T have been overpowered by the RW message machine with aother candidate?

I'm saying that Kerry was a great candidate who won all his matchups with Bush from personal achievements of record, on creating better policy, and in the debates he won decisively.

The DNC was outorganized by the RNC and the Dem pundits and media got their asses handed to them every day by the RW machine who controlled the debate on a DAILY BASIS.

But, don't expect that truth to be told - no Dem pundit or writer is going to admit that they couldn't tell the truth as effectively as a the RW message machine can lie for its guy.

The DNC spokespeople were only schooled in defending Clinton for the last 8 years. They knew little about other Democrats and couldn't adjust to real campaign issues.

And it ws the DNC's job to secure the voting machines BEFORE the election - afterwards is too late. There were ALOT of Democrats on the ballot who were let down by the DNC.

Thankfully, Dean is refocusing the DNC to finally do its job.

[Lost4words]

34. Dear BLM please read this.

I was working at the Dept of State during the Reagan admin. I followed Iran contra day by day, each and every news release, every indictment the trials every day for months.. I was outraged an illegal war run from the basement of the WH. Contra resupply planes bringing cocaine back to the US to hook kids in order to finance the killing of farmers and peasants against the vote and will of the majority of US citizens.

I watched the pardons one by one, and now many of the players are wealthy and many are serving the current junta.

So please do not think Iran Contra means anything to the masses, if it didnt bring them down then it wont now. Thats why I say IC is irrelevant today, I am sorry if you cant see the logic of my OPINION here.

BCCI, well it didnt bring them down then, perhaps further exposure and investigation will. And I am with you 100% in hoping it will, in that we are united.

My experience is that the majority of voters have short memories and are bored with complex issues. Unlike yourself and our friends here at DU.

I started this thread cause I knew you would bite.

[blm]

41. Like I didn't know WHY you started this thread?

You tolerate people heaping false crap on Kerry in thread after thread, but choose to harass those who know historic record and choose to correct them?

The Kerry 2008 threads are started 99% of the time by those who attack him and his supporters, and they use warped perceptions that happen to coincide with what the RW corporate media spews.

[Lost4words]

62. Dont get in a huff my friend, its called debate.

I an not harassing you or any JK supporters, I do not support false statements of any kind. Oh and BLM please look up the definition of opinion.

We were both Kerry supporters at one time.

Cool down friend.

And I have only participated in several threads recently and my OPINION has not wavered. Mr Kerry could have done and should have done better, regardless of the many many reasons.

You are entitle to your interpretation of the facts I dont say you are wrong.

But dont insult me cause I disagree or have a different opinion. People who dont feel as you do are not necessarily less intelligent than you.

Thats the mistake you make consistently.

[blm]

69. I was speaking generally, not specifically.

The overall left has to be prepared to undo the damage when that time comes.

Hopefully, facts raised will help them do that.

[omega minimo]

102. It's called

mass debate

[omega minimo]

101. Ya mean like

trolls? :evilfrown:

[Lost4words]

54. I will addresds your points 1 by 1,

If you think IranContra and BCCI aren't relevant today that's your first"
problem with reality. Both 9-11 and our Iraq policy are rooted deeply in those scandals.

AND MANY MORE AS WELL, I AGREE,,does joe voter give a poop? who knows

Are you saying that all the DNC and Dem spokespeople would have challenged the RNC and RW media machine more competently with another Democratic nominee?

NO, the party as a whole was innefective, we are in agreement.

Are you saying that the Left=leaning and objective media WOULDN'T have been overpowered by the RW message machine with aother candidate?

NOPE we agree here as well.

I'm saying that Kerry was a great candidate who won all his matchups with Bush from personal achievements of record, on creating better policy, and in the debates he won decisively.

YOU ARE CORRECT IMHO.We agree here as well.

The DNC was outorganized by the RNC and the Dem pundits and media got their asses handed to them every day by the RW machine who controlled the debate on a DAILY BASIS.

You are spot on, but it wasnt the first time they/we should have been ready.

But, don't expect that truth to be told - no Dem pundit or writer is going to admit that they couldn't tell the truth as effectively as a the RW message machine can lie for its guy.

You couldnt be more correct, the Democratic party failed big time.

The DNC spokespeople were only schooled in defending Clinton for the last 8 years. They knew little about other Democrats and couldn't adjust to real campaign issues.

I am iffy with you on this, I dont think it is that simple.

And it ws the DNC's job to secure the voting machines BEFORE the election - afterwards is too late. There were ALOT of Democrats on the ballot who were let down by the DNC.

Yes but it cant stop with the DNC before elections. You cant fight fraud with silence, and thats what I heard post election.

Thankfully, Dean is refocusing the DNC to finally do its job.

And more power to us all in this matter.

Mr Kerry could not have lost alone, I will go to my grave believing that if it wernt for vote fraud Mr. Kerry would be leading our country to sanity as I type this.

After the loss I was ready for a fight, all I got was silence

[blm]

61. All you heard was silence. I heard that Jonathan Winer knows about the

machine fraud, and if Winer knows about it that can only mean the machines will be exposed at some point.

And, yes......IranContra and BCCI are relevant to the machine fraud, because it was WINER who worked with Kerry to uncover IranContra and BCCI - he specializes in inmformation security and knows how to UNBURY the secrets.

I wonder when that time comes, will the left be prepared to undo all the damage they will have caused trying to tear down Kerry's credibility - he's going to need it to fight the machine fraud battle when the evidence permits. He had no help during IranContra and BCCI - no internet forum supported him then the way internet forums now work to tear him down today.

[Lost4words]

66. Well all I can say is , hold onto that as long as you can.

In close, I will say I have tried to make a simple point and only have made you more adamant regarding your position. As a fellow DU'er (and I wish you no ill) I will pledge to Never participate on any other thread involving John Kerry in any way.

Should the Senator from Mass get the nomination I pledge to campain vigorisly for him and encoursage others to do so as well.

I also pledge that when Winers investagation produces reall fruit I will Post that BLM was right all along and I was wrong.

I trully hope to make that post.

So you can feel victorious in our little keyboard firefight.

I SURRENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:hide:

[sendero]

90. I will support Mr. Kerry...

... in anything he wants to do, except to secure the Dem nomination in 2008. I just don't think he can win, and it has everything to do with his personal campaigning style, nothing to do with his ability, his stances on the issues or his integrity.

But even I am weary of talking about Kerry. :)

[BobBoudelangFan69]

12. He Ran Against Clinton?

[mattclearing]

60. If you think Clinton was the worst president in history, you

probably don't belong here.

[BobBoudelangFan69]

76. Flame War - Yahoooooooo

[LittleClarkie]

89. Oopsie.

Y'all better be sayin' that 'cause yer entirely too lefty for the likes of the DLC. Because if it's the alternative, we'll all be wavin' bye bye to ya.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. I realize you're looking through left-colored lens, however...

More than half of America did not believe this was the worst president in history this time last year. Just because we say it is so does not necessarily make it true.

[fasttense]

28. Yeah right

And there was no voter suppression in Ohio, we all had the same number of voting machines, the pacifist Amish voted for a War president, touch screen voters just all loved brush, the Democrats cheated as much as the repukes, all the exit polls were wrong, more democrats responded to the exit polls than repukes, DeLay's Texas redistricting was fair, those voting districts with over 100% turnout were due to increased populations, and there is a Santa Claus.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

38. And now if you could only prove any of that in a way that actually matters

Then you might have a case.

But since no one can, I'll live in the reality we have today.

[fasttense]

81. So prove to me it wasn't rigged?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

82. Sorry, but that's not how it goes.

The vast majority of the public thinks it wasn't rigged. It's YOUR burden of evidence to convince them.

[Mass]

16. More votes than Clinton or Gore - Yes, I guess this is a failed campaign.

[Roxy66]

20. Both sides voted more

[Mass]

23. He still got more votes than Clinton (%wise as well as absolute).

but I guess it is better to have a nominee that you like to listen to, but who is wrong on issues or unable to do the job.

On this criteria, I will vote for Ben Affleck. But I certainly prefer to vote on somebody who is ABLE to do the job, and Kerry is one of the best for that.

[Roxy66]

25. But I dont think he is electable....he let them smear his name

I dont think it's possible to reverse that...but I may be wrong

[Lost4words]

71. personal slam followed by opinion......

[TayTay]

26. But drew on very different groups.

There is some question that the Republican vote last time may have been a high water mark for them that they might have trouble reproducing in the same percentages and that the Democratic vote had room for a lot of growth. (The increase in the youth vote was striking, for instance.)

In many ways, 2004 was the most important election of my lifetime. It will take a long time to sort this out, but a lot of things were changed by that election, including a renewed emphasis on the part of the Democrats to involve the grassroots again. So much of the Democratic Party has ben diffused through separate interest groups. I sensed in 2004 that this trend is not going to continue and that the Dems are going to consolidate within the Democratic Party. It will take time, maybe 4 election cycles to complete, but that is different and fascinating.

[bonzotex]

24. failed campaign heck no! he won second!....

Second place is pretty cool in a Jr High track meet, but second place is also last-place in a winner-take-all political race.

There were great things that went into Kerry's campaign and the whole Democratic effort in 2004. Let's learn from those, use them, expand on them.

[MrBenchley]

22. Confused is mighty kind under the circumstances....

One wonders why someone who has such open contrmpt for the Democratic party would remain on a website filled with Democrats.

[Roxy66]

29. He doesnt support the notion of Kerry running again...so he's a Repug?

Give me a break.....sounds like the Dean syndrome

[Mass]

35. No, but he deliberately opened a flamebait thread -

He should not be surprised to be flamed.

Contrarely to Clark, Warner, Feingold, there is rarely a thread on DU asking for Kerry to run again. The threads are to talk about what he does, just like other threads are posted for Reid, Dean, Boxer, Warner, Feingold, ...

So this post is baseless at best, and if he thinks he is going to change anybody's mind, he is really mistaken.

[Roxy66]

37. Why is it Flamebait to ask an honest question. Instead of soft-ball

threads?

[Mass]

46. Let see - How often has this question be posted and debate on DU

and how many have been posted about "Let's elect Kerry".

Either the OP wants his hour of glory because he attacked Kerry or he never reads DU. But this thread is at best a lost of bandwith (if you prefer that).

[MrBenchley]

43. He wants a candidate who walks on water...nuff said?

Hey, if you don't see open contempt for the Democrats in his post, I'd hate to think what else you're blind to....

[Roxy66]

44. I'm a Dem.....nuff said!!!

[MrBenchley]

56. And it don't bother you

to see people express open contempt for Democrats?

[Mass]

47. eh! Let's elect Ben Affleck! I think he fits the criteria.

He is a Democrat after all.

[MrBenchley]

55. Ben Affleck walks on water?

Jim Carrey did in Bruce Almighty...and Allan Arbus tap-danced on water in Greaser's Palace (If ya feel, ya healed!)

[second edition]

31. Your comment. "worst President ever" indicates that you have a

very one sided view of the 2004 campaign. Your worst ever comment is extremely debatable and leaves out many variables such as, the mood of the country, the fear, Bush is the better known candidate factor, the publics perceived opinions about the Democratic party and the parties weaknesses etc. You also must consider that the feeling of many Americans was that this was Bush's war he knew it best, and it is never prudent to change leaders in the middle of a conflict. The public at that time, wasn't receiving all the needed information from the media about the handling of the war and the necessity for it, they bought into the security and fear issues orchestrated by the Republicans.
Also, Kerry and the campaign did fight back against the SBV, in April and in August. The media manipulated the reporting and response on this issue so much, that it was difficult to know who was telling the truth. In the end, a small percentage of Americans, decided we should stay the course, so to speak and not change horses in "mid-stream". Believe it or not- this is the honest unvarnished truth.

[karynnj]

83. As Tay Tay said the media hid much of the truth As she said:

"Also, Kerry and the campaign did fight back against the SBV, in April and in August. The media manipulated the reporting and response on this issue so much, that it was difficult to know who was telling the truth."

On a dKos thread, someone wrote a very impassioned denuniziation of Kerry because he, he pointed out only after the election did Kerry release his service records. He then says that the record showed glowing fitness reports where Kerry is given exellent reviews - even by SBVT people. Kerry had about 140 pages of his records on his web site. The media was given explanations on it. The fitness reports were there. The Navy itsef verified there was no problem with his awards after a RW group forced them to review them.

There was only one additional page of one fitness report that Kerry did not have - and it like the rest of the report it was part of it was said Kerry was an exceptionally good officer and recommended accelerated promotion. (The Navy had originally not given this page to Kerry)

The poster ranted that these fitness reports signed by SBVT would have derailed them. That is exactly what SHOULD have happened - the reports were mentioned in the press and the new criticism as well - and given equal weight.

That someone interested enough to be on a liberal blog shows how poorly the MSM used the inforation. (Note how they said dismissed the fact that Bush had major holes in his reports - and ignored the Kerry records that scanned the entire time.

[JPZenger]

32. Need a Candidate Who Can Better Relate to the Common Folk

Kerry had his chance. It is time for a candidate who has an easier time naturally relating to and communicating with the common folk in this country. I don't know who that is yet.

[Roxy66]

33. I wish Hackett could run!! n/t

[Mass]

36. Lets elect Ben Affleck!!

BTW, Kerry relates very well to the common folks. What he does not relate well to are the elites that think that the common folks cant relate with intelligent people.

[skipos]

50. I worked very hard for Kerry but

he did not connect with as many "common" folks as he could have. The windsurfing, downhill skiing, fake tan, multimillionaire from liberal New England thing didn't work to his advantage.

All that stuff is secondary though. His biggest mistake was basing his candidacy on his military experience and then letting the SBVT tear him to pieces.

[Roxy66]

51. Agreed n/t

[blm]

92. If he windsurfed, biked and skied, why would he need a fake tan?

Or are you referring to those before and after pics the media uses - you know, Kerry early in 2003 during his cancer treatment and after when they say he must have had surgery or botox.

Guess media forgets that cancer treatment takes alot out of you but you can bounce back just fine. Or didn't that fit their storyline?

[skipos]

93. Judging from what my own eyes told me when I saw

him, and from seeing him on TV, he looks like he does the fake n bake thing. It's water under the bridge at this point, the damage the SBVT did was what mattered.

[blm]

95. What more can swifties do now that official Navy records support Kerry?

.

[skipos]

97. Navy records supported him a long time ago but

the damage had been done by Kerry's silence.

[blm]

98. Kerry wasn't silent. Broadcast media barely reported his defense

and the articles that proved him right, while giving countless hours to the swiftlies.


Concentrate on the real culprits in all this because unless the media is held accountable and exposed for their tactics it will happen to the next Dem, too.

[skipos]

99. The media blows but even Kerry

was pissed off that he didn't respond to the SBVT attacks quickly. If I remember correctly, he took the advice of an advisor (or more than one) and didn't respond to SBVT for awhile. He later regretted that descision.

[skipos]

45. and a good candidate from a flipable red state would be nice

I really hope we can find and nominate a good candidate who isn't from a deep blue state. Most people feel we lost the last two elections by one state. Any red state we can undeniably flip (because it is our nominee's homestate) is a serious plus.

[jarab]

39. Walk on water? Didja miss the wind surfing?

It is difficult historically for a senator to win the presidency.

I would support Kerry again. His warts (including Theresa in some views) have been publicly displayed, and it isn't unheard (of) that a pol loses terribly only to regain his footing at a later time (Nixon, as a rehab example).

I would rather see the Democratic Party learn to play the game as well as the opposition; Kerry played it poorly because the party hasn't yet learned to use the proper tools at their disposal.
I was generally supportive of General Clark (who was not really prepared for prime time, as it developed, imo).

I cannot imagine another Dem who could have done better in light of *'s War and the accompanying propaganda which was very late in being absorbed by an idiot electorate - which in large part was the party's responsibility again. Kerry isn't totally to blame for the fact that all hell has broken loose for the admin in 2005 instead of 2004. JK can't walk on water or manipulate time.

Respectfully disagreeing, I would wholeheartedly support JK at a moment's notice.

...O...

[Roxy66]

42. Dems arent naturally mean...I truley think this is the problem

but they need to learn to play dirty if we want to win

[karynnj]

87. Cool observation - windsurfing may be as close as man can get to

walking on water. Which of our candidates can do that best? : ) or rather:

I really think we need to see what issues are in play in 2007/2008. Then we can look to which candidates are best able to deal with those issues.

We should avoid analyses that use far too few data points to be viable. TWO Democratic Southern Governors were elected to President. Clinton is Clinton and he was lucky enough to run against Bush Sr when his numbers were near Bush's now. Carter ran in the wake of Watergate. To show how weak this argument is, imagine Kerry won - it was close and if there were no Bin Laden tape it would have been likely.

Would you then say - the answer is MA Senators with initials JFK with thick hair. The statistics would have been the same.

[warrens]

53. More likely, he lost to the stupidest voters in history

[ProSense]

64. Kerry won.

The more Kerry threads I see the more I'm convinced people are obsessed with him.

Thanks for supporting Kerry's popularity.

[emulatorloo]

70. Bush is a sucky president, but was a great candidate, backed up by

a vicious amoral team (ROVE CO), and a corporate national media that for some reason wanted to do everything in its power to hide Bush's flaws and manufacture BS flaws for Kerry.


PS

51-49 is not the dramatic defeat you seem to think it is, either. (and I do think Ohio was stolen, and I do thing the popular vote was padded in Tx and CA) Check out Mondale and McGovern.

[WI_DEM]

73. I don't even think that Bush was a great candidate

He only appeared before hand picked audiences and he sucked during the debates. Bush won despite himself--by having a more ruthless campaign team than we did--and making the "Swift Boat" lies stick.

[Lost4words]

75. To those who say I hate democrats and call me left.

Thank you for participating in this thread, my most successful to date!

Many post were inspiring and insightful, some just mean but thats ok.

but without the silence and acceptance of many so called dems, we wouldnt be in this mess or on this board together today. You decide where you fit, I know where I am.

Best regards to all :toast: 8643

[blm]

77. And that's exactly why I say the WHOLE party needs scrutiny for 2000-2004

and the paths it took during those 4 years and that will never happen if just one person is given all blame undeservedly.

[darkstar]

85. Hey 8643

Long time, no see...

:hi:

[laureloak]

78. Wrong site???? We SUPPORT Democrats here on DU!

What's the point of this thread other than causing infighting?

[Octafish]

79. BCCI is relevant. The same turds financed W.

FYI:

QUESTIONABLE TIES

Tracking bin Laden's money flow leads back to Midland, Texas

by Wayne Madsen

On September 24, President George W. Bush appeared at a press conference in the White House Rose Garden to announce a crackdown on the financial networks of terrorists and those who support them. “U.S. banks that have assets of these groups or individuals must freeze their accounts,” Bush declared. “And U.S. citizens or businesses are prohibited from doing business with them.”

But the president, who is now enjoying an astounding 92 percent approval rating, hasn’t always practiced what he is now preaching: Bush’s own businesses were once tied to financial figures in Saudi Arabia who currently support bin Laden.

In 1979, Bush’s first business, Arbusto Energy, obtained financing from James Bath, a Houstonian and close family friend. One of many investors, Bath gave Bush $50,000 for a 5 percent stake in Arbusto. At the time, Bath was the sole U.S. business representative for Salem bin Laden, head of the wealthy Saudi Arabian family and a brother (one of 17) to Osama bin Laden. It has long been suspected, but never proven, that the Arbusto money came directly from Salem bin Laden. In a statement issued shortly after the September 11 attacks, the White House vehemently denied the connection, insisting that Bath invested his own money, not Salem bin Laden’s, in Arbusto.

In conflicting statements, Bush at first denied ever knowing Bath, then acknowledged his stake in Arbusto and that he was aware Bath represented Saudi interests. In fact, Bath has extensive ties, both to the bin Laden family and major players in the scandal-ridden Bank of Commerce and Credit International (BCCI) who have gone on to fund Osama bin Laden. BCCI defrauded depositors of $10 billion in the ’80s in what has been called the “largest bank fraud in world financial history” by former Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau. During the ’80s, BCCI also acted as a main conduit for laundering money intended for clandestine CIA activities, ranging from financial support to the Afghan mujahedin to paying intermediaries in the Iran-Contra affair.

When Salem bin Laden died in 1988, powerful Saudi Arabian banker and BCCI principal Khalid bin Mahfouz inherited his interests in Houston. Bath ran a business for bin Mahfouz in Houston and joined a partnership with bin Mahfouz and Gaith Pharaon, BCCI’s frontman in Houston’s Main Bank.

CONTINUED...

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/25/feature3.shtml

So, yeah. Bush, Bath, BCCI and bin-Laden are relevant to today.

[blm]

84. Thanks Octa...I have no clue why some still haven't grasped the connection

Maybe you could start one of your famous threads that specifies how BCCI characters link to 9-11 AND the Iraq war policies of BushInc.

[politicasista]

80. Cool flamebait

Our soldiers are dying in Iraq, parents are unemployed, children are out without health insurance, Katrina has changed lives forever, and the cost of heating could go up.

We have to win in 2006, If we don't it won't matter who is running in 2008. Aren't there more serious issues in this country than the past election? It's time to move on and fight the REAL enemy at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.


2006, 2006, 2006, 2006, 2006!

[second edition]

86. Definitely flaimbait, Keeping the Kerry bashers happy and

content. They have to constantly repeat their anti- Kerry posting points or they may forget them since their minds are so small and closed.

[LittleClarkie]

88. Half the country didn't agree with you. I have a Republican friend

who thinks he might be the best Prez ever. I know another who cried three times during his RNC speech when he mentioned 9/11. The things that make us puke make them sigh.

Those who voted for him live on a different planet. We can't even fathom their mindset. It is foreign to us.

Luckily, since the election, many people have started to leave Planet "Beer-with-Bush" and rejoin us in the real world.

Gore lost to this guy too.

And do you know why? Go look in the Daily Howler archives. They are enlightening.

I don't care who the next Dem candidate is, we need to combat the RW spin against that person like it was our life at stake. Gore and Kerry were both made into cartoons. We need to do better on the next guy.

Gore never said he invented the internet. Kerry beat the tits off Bush in the debates. We would have been in infinitely better shape with EITHER one of these men.

And I still wonder where the hell that LIBERAL press is that I keep hearing about. Anyone here seen them? They must have gone on vacation.

On edit: And another thing, campaigning against Bush and not for Kerry wasn't going to work. Didn't work for Dole against Clinton. Wasn't going to work for us. You can't make people see your side sometimes. You have to wait for them to learn the hard way. Here we are, a year later, and I think they are.

I'm wondering if it didn't boomerang on us. Did we make people get protective of the little twerp? I'd talk to people on our side who were threatening to stay home if the negative rhetoric didn't stop. There I was at HQ, on the phone with someone who thought I had a direct line to John Kerry, and could tell him to get positive. Riiight.

But anyway. If people aren't paying enough attention, they don't know what you know. Then it's a battle for the spin. And if the press isn't on your side, then you lose the spin.

For my part, I say to hell with 2008 or 2004. Now is what we have to concentrate on. Now and in 2006.

[KG]

91. actually, somehow, someway, it's got to be ralph naders fault.

because, as the 'bots daily remind us all , it couldn't be john kerry's fault that john kerry lost to a knuckle dragging moron. :eyes:

[LSK]

94. its friday, time for another bash Kerry thread!!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[B Calm]

96. Wait till the DLC decides to run Hillary, what will our excuses be then?

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

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