Debate: Stan Tookie Williams' Clemency (Life w/o Parole) v Execution

[nofurylike]

Please see related thread:

12/2 ** URGENT**11 Days to STOP the EXECUTION! Clemency=Life w/out Parole

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5500542&mesg_id=5500542

Stan Tookie Williams
interviewed by Amy Goodman

Re Stanley Williams interview

AMY GOODMAN: What are your thoughts on the death penalty, in general?

STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS: The death penalty, it's not a system of justice, it is a system of – a so-called system of justice that perpetuates a, shall I say, a vindictive type of response, a vigilante type of aura upon it. We’re talking about something that is barbaric. We’re talking about something that – it doesn't deter anything. I mean, if it did, then it wouldn't be so many – especially in California, we're talking about over 650 individuals on death row. And if it was a deterrent, this place wouldn't be filled like this. And it's an expensive ordeal that – the money, as you know, the monetary means comes out of the taxpayers' pocket.

And for anyone to think that murder can be resolved by murdering, it's ridiculous. I mean, we look at all of the wars that we have throughout other countries and other nations, and all it does is – this violence, all it does is engender violence. There seems to be no end, but a continuous cycle, an incessant process of blood and gore that doesn't end. And through violence, you can't possibly obtain peace. You can, in a sense, occupy a belief of peace; in other words, through this mechanism of violence, you – it appears that because there is a standing army or standing police that is used in brutality or violence or a system that uses brutality or violence that that is going to totally eliminate or stop criminous behavior or criminous minds or killings or what have you, but it doesn't.

Please read the rest & listen to the interview @ http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/30/153247

Thank you!

[Walt Starr]

1. Execute him

The only justice to be obtained in this case would eb the execution of Williams.

[hiaasenrocks]

28. Very well said. n/t

[SaveElmer]

2. Capital Punishment is murder...

Morally no different than the murder Williams committed. Lock him up for life...let him continue the work he has been doing from there.

[Village Idiot]

5. It may be murder, but it certainly cuts down recidivism severely!!!

[SaveElmer]

8. Not any more than life without parole...

And does nothing to prevent people from killing in the first place...

[Czolgosz]

69. Actually, you're mistaken. Prisoners on death row are 250% more likely to

commit murder while in prison than prisoners in the general population. See Lester, D., "Suicide and Homicide on Death Row", American Journal of Psychiatry, 143, 559, 1986.

This is a predictable result of the hopelessness engendered by the impending retaliatory kill soon to be imposed by the state (and when I say "by the state," I mean "by you and me and our friends and neighbors").

[hiaasenrocks]

74. That number would drop if

the process was expedited. There needs to be legislation that fast-tracks appeals, and the number of appeals should be limited to maybe 2 at the max. (One trial, two appeals...three total appearances before the court is plenty.) Legislation should further mandate that after/if the second appeal is lost, the execution should take place within 10 days.

[Czolgosz]

84. Of course, an expedited process would kill more of the wrongfully accused.

How many innocent deaths are acceptable collateral losses to satisfy the instinct for revenge? Let's decide on that number as a target and alter the system accordingly.

[hiaasenrocks]

96. Wow.

Instinct for revenge, huh? Let's try to stick to the facts here. Nice strawman.

[Czolgosz]

101. What other justification for the death penalty but eye-for-an-eye?

It's not a deterrent.
It's not rehabilitative.
It doesn't stop recidivism.
It isn't cheaper.
As applied, it's race-biased, class-biased, and gender-biased.
As applied, it's deeply flawed and kills some wrongfully accused.

What motivates the public desire for capital punishment if not retribution? I concede that I cannot dissuade anyone who sees retribution as valid justification for capital punishment. If you see some other justification besides retribution (which is revenge, right?), I'll be happy to post facts rebutting those other justifications.

[AngryOldDem]

111. Where's the strawman?

What other motive can there be for the death penalty other than revenge?

It certainly won't "take back" the crime, nor will it bring back the victim, or restore any particular peace or wholeness to the victim's family.

I used to be for the death penalty in certain cases but to my mind enough questions have been raised both from a legal and scientific standpoint that I do not think it is a viable form of punishment anymore. This week we passed the 1,000 mark in executions in this country. How many of those were wrongfully carried out? How many innocent people died? Asking that question alone should make us all stop and think about the "justice" of such a punishment.

[nofurylike]

95. crucially important information, thank you, Czolgosz. eom

[nofurylike]

19. thank you, SaveElmer. please email, fax and call the governor

expressing yuor opposition to the death penalty!

many advocate there being laws charging prosecutors with murder when they knowingly withhold or tamper with evidence to get a death sentence. i do.

the prosecutor in this case did that.


peace and solidarity!

[hiaasenrocks]

31. Again, more untruths.

The prosecutor did not withhold exculpatory evidence nor did he tamper with evidence. This has been examined by various courts in the defendant's appeals.

FACTS:

PROCEDURAL HISTORY AND APPELLATE REVIEW
To date, Stanley Williams’ case has received extensive legal scrutiny in both state and federal court. Since his conviction in 1981, Williams has pursued multiple appeals and habeas corpus petitions. In each and every instance, in both state and federal court, his conviction has been affirmed as appropriate and just.

• On April 18, 1980, the trial court granted Williams’ motion to substitute his hand-picked attorney, Joseph Ingber, as attorney of record in place of Gerald Lenoir.
• On January 21, 1981, the jury trial commenced and on March 13, 1981, the jury returned guilty verdicts of four counts of first degree murder and two counts of robbery. The jury also found the special circumstance allegations of robbery-murder and multiple murder to be true. Lastly, the jury found true the special allegations that defendant Williams personally used a shotgun and that a principal was armed with a firearm.
• On March 17, 1981, both parties having rested without presenting evidence at the penalty phase, argument was presented on behalf of the People and defendant Williams as to whether the penalty should be death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Following arguments and instructions of law by the Court on this issue, the jury, on March 18, 1981, returned a verdict of death as to each of the charged first-degree murders.
• On April 15, 1981, defendant Williams’ motions for a new trial and for modification of the verdict and findings imposing the death penalty were heard by the Court and denied. The trial court then sentenced Williams to death on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7.
• On April 11, 1988, on automatic appeal to the California Supreme Court, in the cases of People v. Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 21977, and In re Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 23806, consolidated under Case No. S004365, and published at (1988) 44 Cal.3d 1127, the imposition of the death penalty was affirmed and defendant Williams’ first habeas petition was denied following an evidentiary hearing.
• On January 18, 1989, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ second state habeas petition in Case No. S008526.
• On that same date, January 18, 1988, defendant Williams filed his first federal habeas petition in the United States District Court in Case No. CV89-00327SVW. The district court held that petition in abeyance while defendant Williams returned to the California Supreme Court with his unexhausted claims.
• On April 11, 1994, following another evidentiary hearing, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ third state habeas petition in Case No. S011868, published at (1994) 7 Cal.4th 572.
• On June 21, 1995, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ fourth state habeas petition in Case No. S039285.
• On December 21, 1988, defendant Williams returned to federal court and, following an evidentiary hearing, the United States District Court denied defendant Williams’ amended habeas petition in Case No. CV89-00327-SVW, and published its order at (1998) 41 F.Supp.2d 1043.
• On December 17, 1999, defendant Williams’ subsequent Rule 60(b) motion to reopen the judgment was denied, and the order was published at (1999) 1999 WL 1320903.
• On September 10, 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied defendant Williams’ direct appeal and Rule 6 (b) motion in Case Nos. 99-99018 and 00-99001, published at (2002)306 F.3d 665.
• On September 9, 2004, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals amended the opinion and denied defendant Williams’ petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2004) 384 F.3d 567.
• On February 2, 2005, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied defendant Williams’ subsequent petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2005) 396 F.3d 1059.
• Finally, on October 11, 2005, the United States Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ petition for writ of certiorari in Case No. 04-10500. As this historical accounting proves, Williams has benefited from a detailed and exhaustive review of all of his legal claims and each court has affirmed the guilty verdicts and affirmed the death sentence. In doing so, our courts, both state and federal, have given appropriate and serious consideration to Williams, consideration which Williams so violently denied each of his victims.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

[Dorian Gray]

41. I don't like CP,

but I don't think that you can liken the state sanctioned execustion of a convicted repeat murderer to those very murders that Tookie is held responsible for.

[SaveElmer]

44. Why?

What's the moral difference?

[nofurylike]

48. yes, actually, a prosecutor knowingly, premeditatedly railroading

a human being, to have them **killed!!** for personal political gain, and for race supremacism, would better be likened to paid killers and genocidal murderers.

thank you


peace

[wixomblues]

113. I'd argue that there is a substantial moral difference

Tookie is being executed as a punishment for his crimes. His vivtims did nothing wrong.

[msongs]

3. can we get the 4 corpses to testify at the clemency hearing?

this man says his situation is "barbaric". well he is an expert at barbaric. just ask all his little hip hop crips descendents.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Sapphire Blue]

14. Yes, he is an expert at living a horrible life... and also an expert...

... in teaching young people to not follow in his footsteps.

One can ask "all his little hip hop crips descendents" about how he is motivating them to avoid/leave the gang life that he led, to turn their lives around, to walk away from violence.

I am aware of his past involvement in co-founding the Crips, I am aware of his life of violence; I am also aware of his efforts for more than a decade to keep others out of the horrible life to which he succumbed. After his conviction and several years on death row, and after much soul searching, this man overcame incredible odds, and turned his life around. In doing so, he has also turned the lives of tens of thousands of young people around with the anti-gang work he has done for more than a decade.

I understand that many are angry about what this man has done in his past, that many believe that he is guilty of the murders of which he was convicted, and want to see him punished. If he receives clemency, he will remain in prison... life w/o parole... he will be punished. His execution will serve to provide vengeance (whether deserved or not), rather than punishment. It will also serve to the teach children that he is helping that there is no hope, no redemption, and that they don't matter.

Why do I plead for clemency for a convicted murderer? Why do I plead for the life of the man who co-founded the Crips? I have over 150,000 reasons:

Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx has officially endorsed a Stan 'Tookie' Williams clemency campaign spearheaded by over 150,000 youth who claim the Nobel Peace Prize Nominee (set to be executed on Foxx's 38th birthday next month: Dec 13) has saved their lives with his nine anti-drug books and personal anti-gang mentoring over the past decade.

http://www.eurweb.com/story.cfm?id=23360

Our children are too precious to discard.

[Dorian Gray]

42. Sapphire Blue...

"I understand that many are angry about what this man has done in his past, that many believe that he is guilty of the murders of which he was convicted, and want to see him punished. If he receives clemency, he will remain in prison... life w/o parole... he will be punished. His execution will serve to provide vengeance (whether deserved or not), rather than punishment. It will also serve to the teach children that he is helping that there is no hope, no redemption, and that they don't matter."

This is exactly why I think he should be given clemency. I'm not a fan of what he did in the past, and I believe him to be guilty. But, I also believe that he could do good in teaching people not to follow in his footsteps. To live good lives. To be honest and hard-working people. While serving his sentence in prison.

[Sapphire Blue]

45. Thank you so much for that!

Please consider contacting Gov. Schwarzenegger to support clemency (life w/o parole) for those reasons!

Phone: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Again, thank you.

[okieinpain]

26. hey, leave hip hop out of it. next thing you will be saying 9/11 and

saddam together.

[ContraBass Black]

29. But Hip-Hop makes children shoot people!

Think of the children!

[nofurylike]

52. yes, yes it does. i heard it on faux news... thank you ContraBass Black!

[nofurylike]

51. WELL said, okieinpain! thank you! eom

[Village Idiot]

4. Murdering buggers like this is why Capital Punishment was invented.

Fry the bastard.

[Thtwudbeme]

13. aha! I always wondered why you chose that for your DU name!

nt

[hiaasenrocks]

6. We need all the information.

Not just the one-sided stuff presented around here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5500980

[nofurylike]

10. my work is to offset the bloated credence handed a prosecutor who

is a confirmed, previously court-disciplined, racist.

thank you


peace

[hiaasenrocks]

11. The link I provided....

is detailed with trial information, including photos of trial evidence.

Everyone should consider it before making up their mind based on the information provided around this site. Some of that information provided here (by you and others) is factually incorrect. One example is the racial composition of the jury.

Remember the victims. Read the evidence!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5500980

[nofurylike]

16. do not again imply that i do not remember the victims. the struggle for

JUSTICE is as much their concern as it is mine and yours.


peace

[hiaasenrocks]

18. What does this mean?

"the struggle for JUSTICE is as much their concern as it is mine and yours."

The four people that Tookie murdered will finally receive appropriate and overdue justice on December 13. Same for the families of the victims.

I don't think your quest for "justice" is the same as theirs.

Albert Owens, 26
Tsai-Shen Yang, 63
Yen-Yi Yang, 63
Ye-Chin Lin, 43

[nofurylike]

56. you know nothing of me. n/t

[hiaasenrocks]

61. I know that you have repeatedly

misrepresented this defendant's trial. I'm correcting the record.

As for the "struggle for justice," I was merely pointing out that you do not share the same view of that as the victims' families. That's not a criticism, necessarily, it's a factual observation.

I respect your right to present you argument. Again, I'm just making sure that the facts are correct, while presenting the other side of the issue.

[nofurylike]

64. the frickin prosecutor called him and his community what - exhausted...

what words?? jungle animals?? too tired to remember exactly, but i know you know what i am saying.

grasp that?
does that not remind you of anything?

there are very basic things to decide, that invariably lead to the only possible justice, which is clemency.

enough.
you do not care to know or hear.

and i was willing to discuss.

what IS your problem with life without parole?
nothing you say explains that.


peace

[hiaasenrocks]

72. I have no problem with LWOP

in certain cases. But I believe this defendant is a perfect example of cases in which the death penalty should be applied. And I'm pretty confident it will.

As for me "not caring to know or hear," I've read everything you've posted that I've come across, and it's been a lot. We disagree on this issue.

I've posted the numerous appeals before various courts, all of whom have denied this murderer.

Ranting and screaming about racism is a last resort for the Save Tookie side. I understand that. I'll stick to the proven facts of this case. That's why I am posting the facts so that people can make up their minds in the face of the misrepresentations that are being posted here on a regular basis.

[nofurylike]

75. "last resort." i am a fool. will not try again. goodbye. i wish you mercy.

[hiaasenrocks]

76. As expected.

See ya.

[nofurylike]

85. of course you expect it.. that's your WHOLE *game*.

yuck

[hiaasenrocks]

94. No game here.

You are posting propaganda from actors and musicians, incomplete and sometimes totally inaccurate information about the trial, and making baseless claims about people not wanting to hear your opinion.

I've posted facts from the case, the evidence from the trials (with photos of items in evidence) and you are displeased with that.

I'm not sure why you even started a thread asking for debate. You aren't interested in the trial facts. Your entire position is based on smear, inaccurate information and unsubstantiated claims of racism.

I'm getting kind of bored with the Tookie Groupies. Justice will be served on December 13.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. I am against the death penalty.

But has anybody thought that perhaps Williams shouldn't be the poster-boy for the anti-execution stance?

[nofurylike]

21. we work day in and day out trying to stop executions. no one is "the

poster boy."

maybe you've missed past efforts on DU to halt executions. this is one of many executions happening or approaching right now.

one of the differences here is that it is harder to get people to fight for Justice when the person facing execution has been so efficiently slotted into the racist stereotypes that distort people's views of him. that is, all too many think, even say:
"so what if there is question of his guilt or receiving a fair trial, or if he has done life-saving works for our youth, he started a gang, so kill him."

death penalty for starting a gang?

that is what he is atoning for, and doing incredible works in doing that. our young people need him. we need his outstanding contributions to their survival and well-being.

thank you, yibbehobba. will you please write the governor expressing your opposition to execution?


peace and solidarity!

[hiaasenrocks]

25. You make a few important points I'd like to address.

If anyone says, as you indicate, "so what if there is question of his guilt or receiving a fair trial" then they need only to review the actual trial and appeals evidence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5500980

This would be much more informative than the statements of various celebs. Review the evidence.

That link, and the link within, address the inaccurate claims that this was a racist railroading of the defendant.

Why do you say he is "atoning" for something? Defendant Williams does not admit his guilt in these heinous crimes. How can he "atone" for something he says he didn't do?

[Silverhair]

82. Yes, I have seen those many posts. It is also strange that...

...in each one there are people who claim the murderer is innocent, and who post partial evidence to support their claim. But when a google search turns finds unbiased sites that list the evidence, it becomes obvious that the guy is as guilty as hell itself.

It is notworthy to remember that until the last, Ted Bundy had supporters, some of them celebrity. Then, a few days from The Day, he started telling where bodies had been hidden, and promised to tell others if his life could be spared. He tried to use the grief of families to know what happen to their children as bargining chips. It was a bit of embarassment for his supporters.

How is it that some people here are so ready to believe that EVERY convicted murderer is actually innocent?

[jarab]

9. No doubts here about his guilt ...

and likewise no doubt about my support for "life" w/o parole.

I think very few adults are being persuaded to change their established views on the death penalty and its application. I would rather that ten guilty go free than one innocent executed. The guilty are walking the streets today (think "celebs") because they had a mansion to mortgage for their defense.
Make justice equitable, then call back. It ain't gonna happen.
However, I am in support of hard time rather than country club atmospheres in prisons. My defense of life doesn't extend to luxuries.

...O...

[nofurylike]

49. "I would rather that ten guilty go free than one innocent executed." yes!

that is a vitally important feeling about capital punishment!

thank you, jarab!

will you please consider calling, emailing, and/or FAXing Gov. Schwarzenegger?

Phone: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814


peace and solidarity!

[sproutster]

66. Amen

[Silverhair]

86. And how many new innocents will die from your release of ten...

...hard core murderers. Most murderers don't get death penalties. Only the very worst ones do.

The reason that we make the gov't go to so much trouble to display the guilt of the convicted is NOT because we care that much about the occasional innocent. The reason that we do it is because we FEAR a gov't that is powerful enough and efficient enough to round up and get rid of the criminal element smoothly and quickly. Such a gov't would then turn it's power on the rest of us.

[dogfacedboy]

12. I'm anti-death penalty.

The guy did the crimes, no doubt. For this, give him 1000 years, no chance for parole, hard labor, solitary confinement and NO amenities, i.e. TV, exercise. Bread and water diet. Hard time.

Who are we, as a society, to put anyone to death? When have two wrongs ever made a right?

[Sapphire Blue]

34. Thank you for your strong stand against the DP.

Please consider contacting Gov. Schwarzenegger to state your position.

Phone: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Thank you!

[dogfacedboy]

43. I will. Thank you for the info. n/t

[nofurylike]

68. very well said, dogfacedboy! thank you! eom

[Sapphire Blue]

15. Life, death and Stanley “Tookie” Williams

This, from someone who starts out by stating that he hates gang members, and condems the violence they have wrought in our inner cities...

Life, death and Stanley “Tookie” Williams
by Roland S. Martin, Chicago Defender
December 2, 2005

(excerpt)

So if Williams is allowed to keep breathing, can the life of one kid be altered by hearing his voice and deciding not to join a gang? Is it worth Stanley living to keep one mother from having to bury her child, and one father being able to see his son graduate from high school?

Is Stanley's life really worth potentially the life of another?

Yes it is. If he dies, we bury one. If he lives, we may not have to bury 1,000.

As the Bible says, even in evil, good can come about.

http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=3089

[Sapphire Blue]

39. kick

:kick:

[nofurylike]

50. that is excellent, Sapphire Blue!! thank you for posting that! eom

[othermeans]

79. His message didn't get across to his own son who murdered a young

woman in a gang retaliation.

[Leeny]

17. Against Death Penalty

Has anyone taken a poll on DU? I'm against it for a number of reasons, one of which is that in this country the death penalty is used in a discriminatory way. I don't have the stats, but in one of my college classes we read studies that showed that the blacker you are the more chance you have of getting the death penalty.

A black man who kills a white man has a MUCH greater chance of getting the death penalty than a white man who kills a black man. And I ain't just talkin' about Mississippi. Here's the breakdown, from highest likelihood to lowest:

black kills white
black kills black
white kills white
white kills black

I don't think it's justice when it's affected by the color of your skin.

Second point... isn't our justice system designed to incarcerate and then REHABILITATE? (Ha!!) Well, I think it is. And in this case, he seems to have been rehabilitated to the point of serving to teach and stop others from committing the same acts he did as a young man.

I don't think he should be let out, but I don't think he should be executed either. Besides, if he's executed now we've wasted a valuable voice in fighting gangs and crime, and I'd be concerned about the reaction from people who look up to him.

Please excuse the pun, but this issues isn't just black & white. It has many dimensions and some of us need to take a harder look at it.

[Sapphire Blue]

35. Poll question: Poll: I Think Tookie Deserves Clemency Because/Doesn't ....

... Because ________

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5497994

{Posted by OPERATIONMINDCRIME}

[nofurylike]

57. thank you for that link, SB! will do! eom

[Leeny]

97. Thanks !

Sounds about right. THanks.

[nofurylike]

54. excellent post and crucially important point, Leeny!! thank you! eom

[Dhalgren]

20. The government should be allowed to kill NO ONE. Once you

say that the government can kill a citizen, that means the government can kill ANY citizen. If you think that you can control who the government kills and why they do the killing, you are dreaming. The only way to stop the government from killing citizens is to not allow it to do it. It sounds silly, but it is true. The government cannot be allowed to kill its own citizens for any reason, because if that government is so allowed it will kill its citizens for any reason... Sorry for the rant...

[nofurylike]

60. agree, absolutely. thank you for that post, Dhalgren! eom

[MamaBear]

22. Life Imprisonment

The difference between life imprisonment and execution is the difference between justice and vengeance.

If he can turn his life around and offer service to the community while imprisoned (as Williams has done, without question), all the better for society. If he cannot, then a dangerous person is safely segregated and will not be able to do more harm.

An imprisoned person may later be freed if proven innocent. (Think of all those people in Illinois who were exonerated through DNA evidence.)

When I think of the institutionalized racism in this country, my skin just crawls at the idea of putting somebody to death based on "evidence" presented by law enforcement. And killing an accused does not restore the lives of those he is accused of murdering.

I think the biggest mistake the American justice system ever made was the "victim impact statements." Justice isn't something you get. It's something you do. And revenge killing doesn't sound like justice to me.

[Sapphire Blue]

23. Thank you so much for your strong & insightful statement.

If you haven't done so yet, please consider contacting Gov. Schwarzenegger in support of clemency for Mr. Williams:

Phone: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Thank you!

[nofurylike]

62. very well said, MamaBear! thank you! eom

[okieinpain]

24. from what I've seen, I say he should be put to sleep..

[tgnyc]

27. Let him live, but force him to spend the rest of his life

doing the anti-gang activism he has been doing. See http://intelligencesquad.blogspot.com/2005/11/tookies-last-chance.html

[Sapphire Blue]

30. He has willingly been doing that work for more than a decade.

It is not work that he was forced to do. It is work that he has chosen to do in atonement for his wrongs. If allowed to live, he will continue his work by choice.

BTW, that was a good article... thanks for the link to it!

[nofurylike]

70. thank you for the great link. please consider writing, calling the

governor to say that?

Phone: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

FAX: [phone]

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

thank you!


peace!

[Wind Dancer]

32. 12/2 ** URGENT**11 Days to STOP the EXECUTION! Clemency=Life w/out Parole

Violence begets violence.

I am ashamed - "NC executes nation's 1,000th inmate since 1976."
There are many in my state who still endorse this practice, both Dems and Pukes. Let me speak for the those of us against legalized killing, we knew clemency was never an option for this man.

My opposition to the death penalty does not in any way diminish the victim's tragedy.

Hopefully, California will not follow this example. Too many people have been treated unjustly in our legal system since its birth. Racial prejudice has played a part and we would be foolish to ignore that history.
----------------------------------------------------------------

There are currently more than 3,500 people on death row -- more than at any time in U.S. history.

Since 1976, more than 580 people have been executed in the United States. Over 50% of those have been killed since 1992.

More than three-quarters of all executions since 1976 took place in Southern states. The reality is that lynching still exists -- it's just legal now.

Texas Gov. George Bush has personally signed death warrants for 100 executions and counting.

President Clinton's 1994 crime bill added 58 more crimes that are punishable by death. And his "Anti-Terrorism" bill limits the number of federal appeals for death row prisoners to just one within one year of conviction.

Both parties have created a "get tough" climate which can only mean more executions. It's time to take a stand against this barbaric practice.

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/fiveRs.html

[Sapphire Blue]

38. kick... for this post!!

:kick:

[nofurylike]

73. excellent post, FrustratedDemInNC! thank you! eom

[Peter Frank]

33. K & R... n/t

[RandomKoolzip]

36. I'm against the death penalty, but if anybody deserved it, this guy does.

n/t

[Peter Frank]

37. K... n/t

[Sapphire Blue]

40. Stanley "Tookie" Williams: Redemption or Revenge?

Stanley "Tookie" Williams: Redemption or Revenge?

Who knew that so many Huffington Post readers would be so thirsty for the blood of death row-inmate Stanley “Tookie” Williams? In my first post on the subject last week I had wanted to avoid the larger issue of the barbaric inanity of the death penalty to try to reach across the aisle to even the usually pro-death penalty people.

If Mr. Williams is granted clemency by Governor Schwarzenegger he will merely keep doing what he has been doing for the past two decades behind bars: trying to convince others not to follow in his footsteps. I tried to argue that as a symbol of redemption he better serves the public good alive than dead.

For example, in the first four months of January of last year thirty-two Bloods and Crips in Newark, New Jersey, had been murdered in their senseless, ongoing feud. On April 11th, Easter Sunday, Redemption, the made-for-TV movie on Mr. Williams’ life starring Jamie Foxx, aired on the F/X channel. Some Crips and Bloods saw the show, immediately went online to Mr. Williams’ website and downloaded his “peace protocol.” By May the details were ironed out, a truce was signed and former Crip Kevin Tate and Blood Lawrence McKinnis now head an extremely non-criminal organization called, “S(aving). O(ur). S(elves).”

<snip>

And if you’re a Christian, you obviously must be against capital punishment, because Jesus Christ couldn’t be more explicit in his condemnation of killing. WWJD? He sure as hell wouldn’t flip the switch.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/trey-ellis/stanley-tookie-williams_b_1913.html

[Sapphire Blue]

46. kick

[nofurylike]

80. excellent! thank you, Sapphire Blue! what a great teacher you are!! eom

[Fescue4u]

47. How CAN he turn his life around, IF HE DIDNT DO THE CRIME?

Thats what I find ridiculous.

We have folks claiming that Tookies turned his life around and is now a wonderful book writer.

At the same time, the same people are saying that he is innocent.

Thats ridiculous. If he's innocent, then he's innocent (which would an amazing accomplishment for a leader of killers)

If he's guilty, then yes he could have turned his life around...except that he refuses to accept guilt, or apoligize to his victims.

TOOKIE GROUPIES:
Which is it?
He is Innocent, or did he turn his life around while refusing to apologize to his victims?



(I suppose he could do both, went into prison as an innocent gang leader, and then turned his life around by killing a few prison inmates)

[slackmaster]

59. He isn't innocent and I don't believe his redemption story

IMO Williams is a con man.

I oppose the DP because people aren't smart enough to be completely sure they never execute an innocent person, but if anyone ever deserved it Williams is a poster person.

[Freedomfried]

53. Are the gang-bangers going to riot and burn LA if he is executed?

Thats what I'm hearing.

[slackmaster]

58. That would be cool

Just what we need.

:eyes:

[sproutster]

63. I heard that too actually

[Freedomfried]

67. I wonder if Arnie will follow Republican marching orders....

and onwards to martial law.

Hut-ho!

[sproutster]

71. Who knows... I'm sure it's on someones memo

What an avoidable cluster.

[nofurylike]

55. please sign the petitions:

Please sign the petition for clemency @
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

now has 61,992 signatures

Another petition @
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240

now has 12,846 signatures


they are hoping to get 100,000 signatures


peace and solidarity!

[cherokeeprogressive]

65. "if it was a deterrent"

I live in the area where Tookie did his dastardly deeds. I know what it's like to live in fear of any person you don't know. I attribute that fear to people Just Like Tookie. Fuck him and his "nobel peace prize" nominations.

The OP said "in California, we're talking about over 650 individuals on death row. And if it was a deterrent, this place wouldn't be filled like this."

Might I posit that if those people on death row who actually deserved it were executed, deterrence would be the result?

If you KNEW that murdering someone and getting caught for it would result in your own demise, would you commit murder? I'm of the opinion that no, you would not murder if you actually believed you'd lose your own life if and when you got caught and convicted.

We're on the edge of an abyss with the Tookie thing. If the bloods and crips, along with every other street gang (I grew up smack dab in the middle of VNBD, which is now established in EVERY state in the union) thought they could get away with murder, they'd murder more. What's so hard to understand about that? How many of you know a gang member personally? Think they wouldn't pop a cap in a rival's ass if they had the chance? Over what street corner they were selling weed on?

Come on people. Get real.

[Sapphire Blue]

77. So much hatefulnes. Sad. Really sad.

Is this why you came here? Bye.

[Fescue4u]

88. That ignore list is getting pretty big isnt it?

Oh wait, I have a different opinion so you'll never see this post.

LOL!

[hiaasenrocks]

98. They never intended to debate in the debate thread.

Go figure.

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. Do you know, or have you ever heard of Robert Bourne? I watched him die

on the sidewalk. I was thirteen years old, and he died in Norwalk California. One of TOOKIE'S friends killed him. Blew him nearly in half with a shotgun in fact. Walked up to him in the usual overcoat, and pulled out the gun... boom.

I grew up playing baseball with the Bourne brothers. Robert was the oldest.

Do you understand where gang warfare comes from, and what motivates it? When I was a child, I played hide and seek with Robert Bourne. He was a friend of mine. I got to watch him die because a friend of his sold dope on the wrong street corner.

I hope Tookie dies, and I hope he dies as painful death as is humanly possible.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

108. So I bet you would really love to see him tortured, huh?

Gouge his eyes out, cut out his tongue....all good right?

[hiaasenrocks]

78. WARNING!

If you don't agree with the Save Tookie side, you are likely to be branded in one of the following ways:

- you're a freeper
- you haven't studied the case
- you're a hate monger

It's not even worth debating the people who ask for a debate because they'll ignore you or label you, without adressing your points.

So much for open-minded. Oh well.

PS - Thanks for your post. I, for one, got something out of it.

[Czolgosz]

81. It's no deterrent. The South accounts for 82% of executions, crime rises;

the Northeast accounts for less than 1% of executions, crime falls.
If you need to have murders (along with some wrongly accused) killed on your behalf (and that's what they mean when the death penalty case is called Williams vs. State -- the state, that's you), I disbelieve I can dissuade you of that need. But don't kid yourself, it's not a deterrent. That's just a myth some people tell themselves to assuage the guilt. See the facts for yourself: <http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/02prelimannual.pdf>

[nofurylike]

89. "the Northeast accounts for less than 1% of executions, crime falls."

thank you for your post, Czolgosz. very well said!!

thank you for those facts and statistics. important!


peace and solidarity!

[Czolgosz]

90. Here's a good graph of murder rates in states w/ and w/o the death penalty

<>

[nofurylike]

100. thank you for these stats, Czolgosz. very important! eom

[SemiCharmedQuark]

83. Life in prison without possibility of parole isn't "getting away with it"

Death penalty as a deterrent flies in the face of study after study after study. Why do so many other countries have no death penalty but lower crime rates?

I was born in Chicago. It didn't make me want the death penalty. It made me despise the death penalty.

[Silverhair]

87. And when he gets old in prison, some person will beg that he...

...be released as he no longer can represent a danger to society. And life will not be L-I-F-E.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

91. You're right...the thought of getting put in jail for 50 years until you

are too old to move (best case) is such a slap on the wrist!

[Silverhair]

92. Compare that "slap on the wrist" to what he gave his victims.

And it proves my point that "LWOP" still doesn't mean it. He gets to launch appeal after appeal and tie up legal rescources as he tries to get free. And some manage to escape.

[hiaasenrocks]

99. Sorry. The victims don't count!

You can't mention the victims.

Remember, Tookie is the victim.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

104. No, the victims count, but another killing does not bring them back.

The death penalty is wrong, regardless of how guilty or innocent the perp is.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

103. Right, and eye for an eye is acceptable.

If you don't like the prospect of LWOP, change it to mean LWOP. That is NOT an excuse to use the death penalty.

[nofurylike]

93. very well said, SemiCharmedQuark! thank you! eom

[Fescue4u]

102. Let me Summarize the "Save Tookie Campaign"

1) He is innocent of the murders.

2) Even if he isnt innocent, then he has turned his life around.

3) Even If he didnt turn his life around, he has saved kids from emulating what he supposedly didnt do.

4) Even If he didnt save kids, well the death penality is wrong anyway.

5) Even if the death penality isnt wrong, if we don't save Tookie, then the Crips, the gang that Tookies claims is wrong, will rise up and riot in LA and kill many people, in an effort to show that Tookie was right about Gangs and killing being bad.

6) And if you still don't agree, then Im putting you on ignore!

[sproutster]

105. 911 is about Iraq ... Oh wait ... I got my spins mixed up

Does anyone have any good numbers on the LWOP that have been in fact parolled in the last decade? I did a search and snooped in the doj crud, I cannot find any good numbers to debate this either way. Isn't this the main argument against LWOP?

Is this about justice or vengence?

In both cases (with the understanding LWOP in this case is just that)you will have no danger to citizens.

In both cases the victims remain dead.

In one case a person will cease to exist and a strong voice against gang violence is silenced.

In the opposing case a person will remain without liberty or freedom but may bring about more gang peace and hense save lives.

[Peter Frank]

107. Our Creator Frowns on Killing...

I hope that the "Right" may come to understand that God said, "Thou shalt not kill."

He didn't say, Thou shalt not murder.

Capital punishment kills -- against Christian values.

[nofurylike]

109. new debate thread:

DEBATE: Stanley "Tookie" Williams: Redemption or Revenge?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5509115


THANK YOU ALL!


peace!

[nofurylike]

110. 12/3 ** URGENT**10 Days to STOP the EXECUTION! Clemency=Life w/out Parole

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5509048


peace!

[Czolgosz]

112. Pretrial investigation of a capital case is at least 3 times costlier,

trial is at least 15 times costlier, appeals are at least 20 times costlier. Contrary to what many non-lawyers might presume, the pretrial investigation and the trial are by far the costliest part of the process, not the appeals or the actual incarceration.

See the facts for yourself: <http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=7&did=918>

Even when you figure in the extra costs of a longer incarceration in a life without chance of parole conviction, capital cases are still much more expensive because of the much greater costs of pretrial investigation and trial associated with such extreme penalties. See Indiana Criminal Law Study Commission, January 10, 2002.

Societal revenge is the only factually unrebuttable justification for capital punishment, and that justification is morally rebuttable on grounds that the death penalty -- as applied in the US -- is grossly biased. Both in terms of bias based on the executed and bias based on the victim at issue in the capital case, the death penalty is applies in a manner that patently discriminates based on race, gender, and class (the death penalty is much more disproportionately assigned when the defendant is non-white, male, and poor; also, the death penalty is much more disproportionately assigned when the victim is white, female, and relatively wealthier).

[LeftCoast]

114. Locking

Per request. :hi: