JFK Would NEVER Have Fallen for Phony INTEL!

[Octafish]

Do you think President John F. Kennedy would have fallen for the phony intelligence stating North Vietnam attacked U.S. warships in the Gulf of Tonkin?



I think not.

Analysis Casts Doubt on Vietnam War Claims

By CALVIN WOODWARD
The Associated Press
Friday, December 2, 2005; 5:31 AM

WASHINGTON -- Another war, another set of faulty intelligence findings behind it.

Forty years before the United States invaded Iraq believing Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, it widened a war in Vietnam apparently convinced the enemy had launched an unprovoked attack on two U.S. Navy destroyers.

Papers declassified by the National Security Agency point to a series of bungled intelligence findings on the purported clash in the Gulf of Tonkin that led Congress to endorse President Johnson's escalation of the Vietnam conflict in August 1964.

Among the documents released Thursday is an article written by NSA historian Robert J. Hanyok for the agency's classified publication, Cryptologic Quarterly. In it, he declares that his review of the complete intelligence shows beyond doubt "no attack happened that night."

Claims that North Vietnamese boats attacked two U. S. Navy destroyers on Aug. 4, 1964 _ just two days after an initial assault on one of those ships _ rallied Congress behind Johnson's build-up of the war. The so-called Gulf of Tonkin resolution passed three days later empowered him to take "all necessary steps" in the region and opened the way for large-scale commitment of U.S. forces.

CONTINUED...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/02/AR2005120200206_pf.html

Here's the National Security Action Memorandum in which he signed orders to pull U.S. forces out of Vietnam:

Text copy and details:

http://www.jfklancer.com/NSAM263.html

Here's the National Security Action Memorandum in which his successor, Lyndon B. Johnson, countermanded JFK's orders. It stated the U.S. would extend whatever help needed to the government of South Vietnam.

Text version and details:

http://www.jfklancer.com/NSAM273.html

No wonder LBJ and J Edgar Hoover hoisted the phony Warren Commission on America: War is good business.

Just like today.

[KittyWampus]

1. Will All Due Respect, I Am Not Entirely Sure One Way Or Other

[Yupster]

6. I bet there was plenty of bad intel

surrounding the Bay Of Pigs.

[Octafish]

12. JK Galbraith: In 63, JFK ordered a complete withdrawal.

Here's what JK Galbraith wrote about the subject:

Exit Strategy

In 1963, JFK ordered a complete withdrawal from Vietnam

James K. Galbraith

Forty years have passed since November 22, 1963, yet painful mysteries remain. What, at the moment of his death, was John F. Kennedy’s policy toward Vietnam?

It’s one of the big questions, alternately evaded and disputed over four decades of historical writing. It bears on Kennedy’s reputation, of course, though not in an unambiguous way.

And today, larger issues are at stake as the United States faces another indefinite military commitment that might have been avoided and that, perhaps, also cannot be won. The story of Vietnam in 1963 illustrates for us the struggle with policy failure. More deeply, appreciating those distant events tests our capacity as a country to look the reality of our own history in the eye.

One may usefully introduce the issue by recalling the furor over Robert McNamara’s 1995 memoir In Retrospect. Reaction then focused mainly on McNamara’s assumption of personal responsibility for the war, notably his declaration that his own actions as the Secretary of Defense responsible for it were “terribly, terribly wrong.” Reviewers paid little attention to the book’s contribution to history. In an editorial on April 12, 1995, the New York Times delivered a harsh judgment: “Perhaps the only value of “In Retrospect” is to remind us never to forget that these were men who in the full hubristic glow of their power would not listen to logical warning or ethical appeal.” And in the New York Times Book Review four days later, Max Frankel wrote that

David Halberstam, who applied that ironic phrase to his rendering of the tale 23 years ago, told it better in many ways than Mr. McNamara does now. So too, did the Pentagon Papers, that huge trove of documents assembled at Mr. McNamara’s behest when he first recognized a debt to history.

In view of these criticisms, readers who actually pick up McNamara’s book may experience a shock when they scan the table of contents and sees this summary of Chapter 3, titled “The Fateful Fall of 1963: August 24–November 22, 1963”:

A pivotal period of U.S. involvement in Vietnam, punctuated by three important events: the overthrow and assassination of South Vietnam’s president Ngo Dinh Diem; President Kennedy’s decision on October 2 to begin the withdrawal of U.S. forces; and his assassination fifty days later. (Emphasis added.)

CONTINUED...

http://www.bostonreview.net/BR28.5/galbraith.html

Thanks, cryingshame. I've always appreciated and respected your perspectives. The thing about Vietnam is that the people who love war -- doesn't matter the party -- made a real killing. Same goes for Iraq.

BTW, JFK authorized Galbraith to conduct back-channel negotiations with North Vietnam. Weird how Harriman (Prescott Bush's old business partner) then OK'd not just the overtrow, but the assassination of Diem.

EDIT: Added ital sections from original.

[Swamp Rat]

2. I love your posts

:kick:

[G_j]

7. Plan for Victory

brilliant graphic SR!!

wow, that upper coat of arms sure looks real!

[Swamp Rat]

9. Thanks. It might as well be real.

[Octafish]

13. Your Pictures are worth a Million Words.

And they all tell the Truth.



Unlike the underlying subjects.

[iconoclastNYC]

3. Bush and Cheney got the Intel they wanted

Why else would Cheney visit the CIA so many times too meet with midlevel analysts....they were fixing the facts around the policy of premptive war.

[Octafish]

14. Excellent point. Smirk and Sneer made sure they got the Intel they wanted.

There's no doubt. And if there was, Feith's Office of Special Plans and Rove's White House Iraq Group would pick up the slack.

[BOSSHOG]

4. JFK would never have deserted his Sailors either

In fact he jumped in the ocean and dragged one to shore after their PT boat was destroyed even though LT Kennedy was suffering severe injuries himself. Such comparisons make for a very happy Friday. Please, anyone from free republic like to share with us comparisons of JFK and your lil dubya.

[Octafish]

19. Thank you, Chief!

During one of the most dangerous periods for the United States Navy, Lt. John F. Kennedy led his men on combat patrol against a force superior in size. One moonless night, his stopped boat was rammed and cut in two by a Japanese destroyer. The aft section sank, taking two crew members with it. Kennedy made certain the survivors were accounted for, swimming out to grab men who were too injured to swim, and towing them back to the fore, which had stayed afloat. The next day, Kennedy decided to lead the survivors to safety on a nearby island. He then towed a man, holding the wounded sailor's lifejacket straps in his teeth. Later at night he swam out to sea, disregarding the sharks and Japanese, in an attempt to signal allied ships.



Gee. Wonder what Bush and Cheney would've done?

Here's what the U.S. Navy has to say:

Lieutenant John F. Kennedy, USN
Related Information:

Transcript of Naval Service
Citation for Navy and Marine Corps Medal
Report on Loss of PT-109, copy of original document
Information on PT-109 and Patrol Torpedo Boats
History of PT-109
Photographs of PT-109
Bibliography

"Any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction, 'I served in the United States Navy,'" wrote President John F. Kennedy in August 1963. A former naval officer, Kennedy was born in Brookline, Massachusetts on 29 May 1917 to Rose and Joseph P. Kennedy. After attending public schools in Brookline, Kennedy went on to The Choate School in Wallingford, Connecticut, and attended the London School of Economics from 1935 to 1936. Kennedy graduated cum laude from Harvard University in 1940 and began graduate school at Stanford University.


Despite having a bad back, Kennedy was able to join the U.S. Navy through the help of Captain Alan Kirk, the Director, Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) who had been the Naval Attache in London when Joseph Kennedy was the Ambassador. In October 1941, Kennedy was appointed an Ensign in the U.S. Naval Reserve and joined the staff of the Office of Naval Intelligence. The office, for which Kennedy worked, prepared intelligence bulletins and briefing information for the Secretary of the Navy and other top officials. On 15 January 1942, he was assigned to an ONI field office the Sixth Naval District in Charleston, South Carolina. After spending most of April and May at Naval Hospitals at Charleston and at Chelsea, Massachusetts, Kennedy attended Naval Reserve Officers Training School at Northwestern University in Chicago, Illinois, from 27 July through 27 September. After completing this training, Kennedy entered the Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron Training Center, Melville, Rhode Island. On 10 October, he was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant, Junior Grade. Upon completing his training 2 December, he was ordered to the training squadron, Motor Torpedo Squadron FOUR, for duty as the Commanding Officer of a motor torpedo boat, PT 101, a 78- foot Higgins boat. In January 1943, PT 101 with four other boats was ordered to Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron FOURTEEN, which was assigned to Panama.


Seeking combat duty, Kennedy transferred on 23 February as a replacement officer to Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron TWO, which was based at Tulagi Island in the Solomons. Traveling to the Pacific on USS Rochambeau, Kennedy arrived at Tulagi on 14 April and took command of PT 109 on 23 April 1943. On 30 May, several PT boats, including PT 109 were ordered to the Russell Islands, in preparation for the invasion of New Georgia. After the invasion of Rendova, PT 109 moved to Lumbari. From that base PT boats conducted nightly operations to interdict the heavy Japanese barge traffic resupplying the Japanese garrisons in New Georgia and to patrol the Ferguson and Blackett Straits near the islands of Kolumbangara, Gizo, and Vella-Lavella in order to sight and to give warning when the Japanese Tokyo Express warships came into the straits to assault U.S. forces in the New Georgia-Rendova area.


PT 109 commanded by Kennedy with executive officer, Ensign Leonard Jay Thom, and ten enlisted men was one of the fifteen boats sent out on patrol on the night of 1-2 August 1943 to intercept Japanese warships in the straits. A friend of Kennedy, Ensign George H. R. Ross, whose ship was damaged, joined Kennedy's crew that night. The PT boat was creeping along to keep the wake and noise to a minimum in order to avoid detection. Around 0200 with Kennedy at the helm, the Japanese destroyer Amagiri traveling at 40 knots cut PT 109 in two in ten seconds. Although the Japanese destroyer had not realized that their ship had struck an enemy vessel, the damage to PT 109 was severe. At the impact, Kennedy was thrown into the cockpit where he landed on his bad back. As Amagiri steamed away, its wake doused the flames on the floating section of PT 109 to which five Americans clung: Kennedy, Thom, and three enlisted men, S1/c Raymond Albert, RM2/c John E. Maguire and QM3/c Edman Edgar Mauer. Kennedy yelled out for others in the water and heard the replies of Ross and five members of the crew, two of which were injured. GM3/c Charles A. Harris had a hurt leg and MoMM1/c Patrick Henry McMahon, the engineer was badly burned. Kennedy swam to these men as Ross and Thom helped the others, MoMM2/c William Johnston, TM2/c Ray L. Starkey, and MoMM1/c Gerald E. Zinser to the remnant of PT 109. Although they were only one hundred yards from the floating piece, in the dark it took Kennedy three hours to tow McMahon and help Harris back to the PT hulk. Unfortunately, TM2/c Andrew Jackson Kirksey and MoMM2/c Harold W. Marney were killed in the collision with Amagiri.


Because the remnant was listing badly and starting to swamp, Kennedy decided to swim for a small island barely visible (actually three miles) to the southeast. Five hours later, all eleven survivors had made it to the island after having spent a total of fifteen hours in the water. Kennedy had given McMahon a life-jacket and had towed him all three miles with the strap of the device in his teeth. After finding no food or water on the island, Kennedy concluded that he should swim the route the PT boats took through Ferguson Passage in hopes of sighting another ship. After Kennedy had no luck, Ross also made an attempt, but saw no one and returned to the island. Ross and Kennedy had spotted another slightly larger island with coconuts to eat and all the men swam there with Kennedy again towing McMahon. Now at their fourth day, Kennedy and Ross made it to Nauru Island and found several natives. Kennedy cut a message on a coconut that read "11 alive native knows posit & reef Nauru Island Kennedy." He purportedly handed the coconut to one of the natives and said, "Rendova, Rendova!," indicating that the coconut should be taken to the PT base on Rendova.


Kennedy and Ross again attempted to look for boats that night with no luck. The next morning the natives returned with food and supplies, as well as a letter from the coastwatcher commander of the New Zealand camp, Lieutenant Arthur Reginald Evans. The message indicated that the natives should return with the American commander, and Kennedy complied immediately. He was greeted warmly and then taken to meet PT 157 which returned to the island and finally rescued the survivors on 8 August.


Kennedy was later awarded the Navy and Marine Corps Medal for his heroics in the rescue of the crew of PT 109, as well as the Purple Heart Medal for injuries sustained in the accident on the night of 1 August 1943. An official account of the entire incident was written by intelligence officers in August 1943 and subsequently declassified in 1959. As President, Kennedy met once again with his rescuers and was toasted by members of the Japanese destroyer crew.


In September, Kennedy went to Tulagi and accepted the command of PT 59 which was scheduled to be converted to a gunboat. In October 1943, Kennedy was promoted to Lieutenant and continued to command the motor torpedo boat when the squadron moved to Vella Lavella until a doctor directed him to leave PT 59 on 18 November. Kennedy left the Solomons on 21 December and returned to the U.S. in early January 1944.


On 15 February, Kennedy reported to the Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron Training Center, Melville, Rhode Island. Due to the reinjury of his back during the sinking of PT 109, Kennedy entered a hospital for treatment. In March, Kennedy went to the Submarine Chaser Training Center, Miami, Florida. In May while still assigned to the Center, Kennedy entered the Naval Hospital, Chelsea, Massachusetts, for further treatment of his back injury. At the Hospital in June, he received his Navy and Marine Corps Medals. Under treatment as an outpatient, Kennedy was ordered detached from the Miami Center on 30 October 1944. Subsequently, Kennedy was released from all active duty and finally retired from the U.S. Naval Reserve on physical disability in March 1945.

SOURCE:

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-2.htm

[WI_DEM]

5. Saint JFK and Evil old LBJ

Both men did alot of good and some bad. Nobody knows what would have happened if JFK had lived. It is mere speculation. We do know that LBJ inherited the same set of advisors, "The best and the brightest" that Kennedy had--McGeorge Bundy, Dean Rusk, Robert McNamara--even brother Bobby was a hawk until around mid 1965. These were the same people who would have advised JFK as they did LBJ-- to go in. Also, JFK did escalate the US role in Vietnam--just as Eisenhower before him did. Does this mean he would have begun a ground war the way LBJ did? I can't say, but it seems to me he would have had the same set of advisors--his own hand picked people--advising him to do so, just as Johnson did.

[KittyWampus]

8. Such a great post and an interesting thread. There's been a segment

of our intelligence and military community eager to start wars in certain areas and who also operate with a high degree of entitlement.

And you know, Eisenhower called it the CONGRESSIONAL Military Industrial Complex before he left out the Congressional part for the speech.

[Zomby Woof]

10. Spot ON

The Kennedy worship gets absurd at times. He was no saint, to be sure. He sure made good use of his predecessor's plans by executing the Bay of Pigs, eh?

He not only escalated Vietnam, had he lived, he would have gone down the same path as LBJ, at least for the first few years - after that, nobody knows.

I think the Kennedy myth is cherished so deeply because of the what-if's and what-could-have-beens his assassination inevitably conjures. He is the Democrats' romantic icon, the same way the Republicans mythologize Reagan. In fact, when Democrats say Kennedy would have avoided Vietnam, I always think of the Republicans who say Reagan "won the Cold War". :eyes:

Lastly, "falling for the bad intel" is beside the point. Bush fell for nothing. He was bound and determined to invade Iraq no matter the substance or quality of intel received.

[H2O Man]

16. You raise some valid points.

However, to be accurate, JFK's failures in the Bay of Pigs occured very early in his administration, and resulted in his making clear he would not be willing to accept "intelligence" on face value again.

While it is possible to argue that he would have followed a similar path in Vietnam, there is significant evidence that he planned to end the US involvement early in his second term. That also shows, of course, that he was willing to continue to send soldiers to war for what appear to be at least partially political purposes.

You are absolutely right about Bush not fallng for bad intel. His conversion to the neocon philosophy was more rapid than Cassius Clay's conversion to the Nation of Islam, to use a JFK-era example. As Paul Wolfowitz admitted, the decision to invade Iraq was forced to use the "WMD threat" as the vehicle because of bureaucracy.

One advantage that JFK had over LBJ and certainly GWB wass a grasp of foreign policy and world history. Johnson was a legendary figure in the House and Senate, but did not have the interest in world politics that Kennedy had from an early age. Bush is perhaps the least well prepared of modern presidents.

[erpowers]

20. Evidence Says Differently

Recently declassified information leads one to believe that Kennedy would have done the exact opposite. Before he was assassinated Kennedy was trying to end the Vietnam War peacefully. He was also trying to get new election in North Vietnam. The difference between the Kennedy people and the Reagan people is that we (the Kennedy people) have facts and they (the Reagan people) do not. I think that had Kennedy stayed in office we might have avoided the Vietnam War.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. It doesn't appear that you bothered to read NSAM 263 included....

...in the original post. If you had read it, you would know that JFK had ordered the withdrawal of the first 1,000 troops (out of a total of 16,000) out of Vietnam by the end of 1963. That doesn't appear to be an escalation to me.

As you noted very briefly, Eisenhower was responsible for sending the first military advisors to Vietnam in 1954. The first U. S. casualties in Vietnam were incurred in 1956, also during the Eisenhower Presidency.

You also probably don't know JFK's opposition to the Bay of Pigs Invasion in terms of using U. S. troops and/or air power in support. The invasion had been planned by VP Nixon and others during the last year of the Eisenhower Administration.

You also probably don't know that JFK refused to send military advisors to Laos, an act that definitely would have been an escalation of the forces present in Southeast Asia.

And what do you know about "Operation Northwoods", the 1962 ultra-right JCS operation plan designed to use the American military to attack U. S. cities and blame those attacks on Cuba? Are you aware that JFK refused to authorize such a hare-brained scheme?

In short, JFK presented himself in public as a hawk because that was expected by the American public of U. S. presidents during that time period. In private, he had a great deal of personal reservations about getting involved in conflicts overseas.

Now, go back and take a look at NSAM 273, a document that was signed by LBJ a mere four days after JFK's assassination. THAT document clearly began the REAL escalation of America's military involvement in Vietnam.

[WI_DEM]

21. Again I say

We can't be sure what JFK would have done. He not only presented himself as a hawk but he was a hawk who greatly increased military spending and was very much a cold warrior--as any US president at that time would have been. I will say that after he stumbled with the Bay of Pigs he did develop a healthy distrust of the Joint Chiefs--would it have made a difference with him when going into Vietnam when McNamara and his other aides were advocating doing so, I don't know.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. You're basing your remarks on the rightwing propaganda produced....

...after the death of JFK to attempt to blame him for the failure of the Bay of Pigs that was planned by Nixon, Dulles, the JCS and others at least a year prior to JFK taking office. The Bay of Pigs planners had all expected Nixon to be elected president in 1960. Unlike JFK, he would have had no reservations about using the U. S. air and naval assets that had been built into the plan. The Bay of Pigs was NOT JFK's "stumble", but he took responsibility for it as any good leader in his position will do.

In 1962, JFK did not approve "Operation Northwoods", a plan put together by the ultra-right JCS. That hare-brained plan called for the use of American miltary forces to mount "terrorist" attacks on U. S. cities and blame those attacks on Cuba. Makes you think about the events of 911, doesn't it?

As to your belief that we don't know what JFK would have done about Vietnam, again, I draw your attention to the information contained in NSAM 263. People close to JFK have always stated that JFK intended to get the troops out of Vietnam. I also bring to your attention JFK's refusal to send U. S. military advisors to Laos.

[erpowers]

22. Maybe Not

You may be right, but it seems that Kennedy was going in a different direction. Kennedy was trying gain a peaceful resolution of the war with the help of the Soviet Union.

[Octafish]

26. LBJ tried to make ours a better country for ALL Americans.

Certainly, LBJ gave a damn about the United States. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, LBJ offered key advice that helped defuse the situation:

The Cuban Missile Crisis, October 18-29, 1962

EXCERPT...

JFK reopens the discussion of trading the missiles in Turkey. McNamara insists that the case should be made that this is not so much a trade as a way of preventing a Soviet military attack on a NATO member nation. (52:58)

McNamara says that if reconnaissance flights are fired upon tomorrow that means air strikes and "almost certainly an invasion." (59:03)

(Apparently JFK is no longer in the room at this point in the discussion.)

Vice President Lyndon Johnson responds: "If you're willing to give up your missiles in Turkey - why don't you...make the trade there and save all the invasion, lives and everything else?" (1:02:10)

George Ball also argues for making the trade openly with the USSR to avoid "enormous casualties and a great, great risk of escalation." (1:03:35)

McNamara: "Max is going back to work out the surveillance plan for tomorrow with the Chiefs as to how much cover we need and so on. We're just going to get shot up sure as hell. There's no question about it. We're going to have to go in and shoot." (1:07:15)

McCone responds: "I'd take these Turkish things out right now" but also tell Khrushchev firmly that if they fire at our planes again "in we come." (1:08:22)

McNamara denounces Khrushchev's Oct 26 letter: "Hell, that's no offer. There's not a damned thing in it that's an offer. You read that message carefully. He didn't propose to take the missiles out....It's twelve pages of fluff." (1:09:30)

LBJ questions the value of the surveillance flights: "I've been afraid of these damned flyers ever since they mentioned them...some crazy Russian captain...might just pull a trigger. Looks like we 're playing Fourth of July over there. I'm scared of that and I don't see what you get for that photograph. ... Psychologically you scare them. Well hell, its like the fellow always telling me in Congress, 'Go on and put the monkey on his back.' Every time I tried to put a monkey on somebody's else's back, I got one. If you're going to try to psychologically scare them...you're liable to get your bottom shot at." (1:33:00)

SOURCE: http://www.hpol.org/jfk/cuban/

My point is, later, during the Gulf of Tonkin episode, Johnson DID go with the advice of McNamara, Bundy and Rusk.

The record shows JFK wasn't going to.

[Dr.Phool]

11. I'm right in the middle of James Bamford's "Body of Secrets"

And I just finished the chapter on Vietnam last night. The phony intelligence is even worse than we could have managed. Even the crew didn't think they were attacked. No damage, no bullet marks. Nothing.

Maxwell Taylor, and members of the JCS, wanted a war bad. The earlier chapter is on Operation Northwoods, where the JCS signed off on a plan to conduct terrorist operations, including shooting down an airliner, to make it look like we were attacked by Cuba, and justify an invasion.

Bamford is a great researcher and writer. The whole book is based on declassified NSA documents, and interviews with current and former officials. I read his first book, "The Puzzle Palace", about 20 years ago, and he covers some of the same ground, but greatly expands on it with more up to date declassifications.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

41. Pentagon Proposed Pretexts for Cuba Invasion in 1962

Those who don't understand that the people who have run and continue to run this country have some screws loose will continue to fall victim to the same.

JFK fired Gen. Lyman Lemnitzer after the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs proposed a plan to create domestic terror and blame it on Castro. It's no wonder JFK feared a military coup.

Pentagon Proposed Pretexts for Cuba Invasion in 1962

In his new exposé of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”

SOURCE w/LINKS TO DOCUMENTS:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/

Bamford's great. Appreciate your post, Dr. Phool. My first reply got deleted. I imagine it contained a banned source. Gee. I feel like Sibel Edmonds.

[erpowers]

15. Somewhat Thinking No

I have read that Kennedy was for reducing the number of troops in Vietnam. In addition, I read that new evidence was released that showed that Kennedy was trying to negotiate a peace settlement with or with the help of the Soviet Union.

It seems that before he was assassinated he had sent a letter to people within the Soviet Union asking them to help bring about peace in Vietnam and help push for new election(s) in North Vietnam. I am not trying to say that Kennedy was assassinated because of this. It could just be a coincidence. Also, he may have been trying to end the war to save his Presidency. However, I think he was just trying to end an unnecessary war before things had gone too far.

[Octafish]

29. Thanks, erpowers. Kennedy ordered J.K. Galbraith to talk to North Vietnam.

On the advice of Gen. Douglas MacArthur, President John F. Kennedy wanted to avoid a land war in Southeast Asia.

Ambassador to India John Kenneth Galbraith was authorized to do some back-channel work in order to avoid the bloodbath Kennedy, IMFO, knew was coming.

January 1963 - Secret negotiations between JFK and Soviet Union to end Vietnam

Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam

By Bryan Bender
Boston Globe Staff
June 6, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Newly uncovered documents from both American and Polish archives show that President John F. Kennedy and the Soviet Union secretly sought ways to find a diplomatic settlement to the war in Vietnam, starting three years before the United States sent combat troops.

Kennedy, relying on his ambassador to India, John Kenneth Galbraith, planned to reach out to the North Vietnamese in April 1962 through a senior Indian diplomat, according to a secret State Department cable that was never dispatched.

SNIP…

A draft cable dated the same day instructed Galbraith to use Desai as a channel discreetly communicating to responsible leaders North Vietnamese regime . . . the president's position as he indicated it."

But a week later, Harriman met with Kennedy and apparently persuaded him to delay, according to other documents, and the overture was never revived.

SNIP…

At the urging of Nehru, Galbraith met with the Polish foreign minister, Adam Rapacki, in New Delhi on Jan. 21, 1963, where Galbraith expressed Kennedy's likely interest in a Polish proposal for a cease-fire and new elections in South Vietnam. There is no evidence of further discussions between the two diplomats. Rapacki returned to Warsaw a day later. Galbraith wrote in his memoirs that it was not followed up.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/06/papers_reveal_jfk_efforts_on_vietnam/?page=full

The actions of JFK's next two successors demonstrate they disregarded MacArthur's advice. Ford ordered everybody to sign the damn accords and got the hell out.

[TayTay]

18. Well, there was that whole 'Bay of Pigs' thing

Somebody sure got fooled on that one. That was bad intel and it changed how JFK dealt with the intel people and agencies.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. If you take a look at the people that planned the Bay of Pigs,....

...I think you'll find people of the same basic rightwing political persuasion as those that steered us into illegally invading Iraq. Nixon, Dulles, and the JCS were some of the primary planners, with the CIA involved in the recruitment and training of the anti-Castro Cuban troops to be used in the assault. The Bay of Pigs failed when JFK refused to allow American air and naval units to participate in the invasion as included in the original plan.

The names of CIA operatives E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis, Bernard Barker, and Felix Rodriguez are heavily tied to the Bay of Pigs operation. All four men were contemporaries of George H. W. Bush, who is also tied to the Bay of Pigs by the codename applied to the invasion, Operation Zapata. Zapata just happened to be the name of Bush's oil drilling company. Additionally, two of the landing craft procured from the Navy were repainted and renamed the "Houston" and the "Barbara". Hunt, Sturgis, and Barker were involved in Watergate, and Rodriguez was involved with the Iran-Conta Scandal as an aide to VP GHWB.

JFK fired the top three CIA executives, including Dulles, following the Bay of Pigs, and threatened to completely dismantle the Agency.

[Octafish]

31. Vietnam documents similar to Iraq today

Thanks, Media Lies Daily! Here's the bottom line up front:

Vietnam documents similar to Iraq today

WASHINGTON, Nov. 17 (UPI) -- Newly declassified documents show former U.S. President Richard Nixon faced similar dilemmas in Vietnam to those faced by President Bush in Iraq.

The National Archives and Records Administration released 50,000 pages of previously classified documents from the Nixon administration that recount how the U.S. war effort was hampered by the 1968 massacre at My Lai of South Vietnamese civilians by U.S. troops. Similarly, Bush is today being plagued by reports of prisoner abuse in Iraq and at the military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

SNIP...

"What the United States wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing," the memo said. "What North Vietnam wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing. What is important is what the people of South Vietnam want for themselves."

Copyright 2005 by United Press International. All Rights Reserved

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051117-08492800-bc-us-nixonpapers.xml

Gee. What was it that Santayana said about history?

[mnmoderatedem]

25. Bush did not "fall" for anything

they cherry picked intel that fit their pro war agenda, despite much of it being highly questionable, and ignored intel that did not suit their case for war.

[Octafish]

28. Thanks for pointing that out.

My point had to do more with the differing abilities of various presidents. President Kennedy, IMFO, would not have fallen for the phony and trumped up Gulf of Tonkin episode.

Several classified studies were released today indicating his successor, Lyndon Johnson, did believe the U.S. was under attack. LBJ's response soon escalated into a major land war in Southeast Asia, something Gen. Douglas MacArthur had told JFK was unwinnable.

Regarding the psychotic moron currently occupying the Oval Office. You are correct. That unelected coke-whore knew full well what he was doing when he lied his eyes out in front of the American people and our elected representatives.

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, mnmoderatedem!

[Octafish]

30. Vietnam Intelligence 'deliberately skewed'

Meant to add:

Vietnam Intelligence 'deliberately skewed'

WASHINGTON, Dec. 2 (UPI) -- Vietnam war intelligence that played a critical role in expanding the conflict was "deliberately skewed," a secret study says.

The provocative document was one of hundreds of papers in long-secret information on the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident released by the National Security Agency, the New York Times said Friday.

In a 2001 article, agency historian Robert J. Hanyok argued that the NSA's intelligence officers "deliberately skewed" the evidence passed on to policy makers and the public to falsely suggest that North Vietnamese ships had attacked American destroyers on Aug. 4, 1964.

SNIP...

Hanyok wrote that 90 percent of the intercepts of North Vietnamese communications relevant to the supposed attack were omitted from the major agency documents going to policy makers.

Copyright 2005 by United Press International. All Rights Reserved.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051202-07365600-bc-us-vietnam.xml

[G_j]

32. yes, I just read this

and I thought of your post here.

Truth seems to be the first casualty before war also.

[Octafish]

35. JFK was killed by War Party.

Those sick turds want more than anything to make money and gain power off of war.

They say it's not the killing part that gets them off. Then read what Libby wrote about big bears and little girls and you know they are truly twisted nutjobs to a man.

Regarding out nation's forgotten history:

During Vietnam:



Averell Harriman, business associate of Prescott Bush (a Senator, father and grandfather to the two presidents Bush), was the catalyst for America’s involvement in the disastrous Vietnam War. The historical record shows Harriman OK'd the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem. America's right wing has long-tried to smear President John F. Kennedy for that murder.

Today, we can see it for what it was:


Harriman Bush Yakuza

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest?

From The Secret History of the CIA by Joseph Trento"

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

SOURCE:

“The Secret History of the CIA.” Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.

BTW: Thanks for catching the meaning of the OP and thus the rationale for the original post. Thanks for being among the few who got it and the many who still give a damn.

[shance]

33. A "secret study" ? Somebody want to tell me what a "secret study" is?

Do tell me, how does verify the accuracy and facts of one such "secret study" unless it is made "unsecret"?

[Octafish]

34. "Secret study" means it was kept from the public. That's "Undemocratic."

An informed citizenry is what was needed to keep the Republic, according to Ben Franklin and the Framers.

So, I don't like it when me and my fellow citizens are prevented from reading the truth for 41 years.

The National Security Archive of George Washington University sued for the information's release:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

A nice overview for those new to the subject:

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=33&idsub=134&id=2228

Here's a PDF of the Secret Study, written by an NSA historian, most of which was known only to decision makers in the White House, National Security Agency and the Pentagon:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB132/relea00012.pdf

You might be surprised at what you learn.

[coeur_de_lion]

36. interesting topic

I so happens that my Dad worked for military intelligence when the Gulf of Tonkin incident happened. He remembers that they had the battle all mapped out, with pins in the map showing our forces and "their" forces. The map showed that we had attacked them. He left work that day and the next briefing he had, when he came in the next day, he saw that the pins had been moved around so that it appeared the other way around -- their forces had attacked us. When he spoke up about it he was silenced -- and told to keep his mouth shut.

He mentioned it another time or two and got into pretty serious trouble about it. My memory is foggy about his story of the Gulf of Tonkin incident, but that was the gist of it. He never told us about it until he read it in the paper 20 some-odd years later.

[Octafish]

37. Thanks for sharing, coeur_de_lion. Your dad is a good man.

How many of his colleagues dared asked, "Why?"

Perhaps fewer did because of the shadows cast from Dallas.

The Pentagon and their backers in government and business know how to frame the discussion.

"The History They Didn't Teach You in School"

An Occasional Series: August 2 and 4, 1964: The Gulf of Tonkin and the Vietnam War

On August 2d and 4th, 1964, American naval officials alleged that torpedo boats from the Democratic Republic of (northern) Vietnam had attacked two American destroyers the Maddox and the C. Turner Joy, in the Gulf of Tonkin. The attendant American response would mark a major political and military escalation of the American war on Vietnam.

Earlier, the U.S. had begun surveillance and probing actions against the DRVN, as part of Operations Plan 34-A, or OPLAN 34-A. A component of these operations were DeSoto Patrols, in which American ships would patrol along and bombard the coast of the DRVN, in the Gulf of Tonkin.

In August 1964, the U.S. was conducting such operations and was patrolling within the DRVN's territorial waters . The American ships were obviously engaging in provocative actions.

Against that backdrop, and the continued deterioration of American efforts to preserve the fictive state of the Republic of (southern) Vietnam and its puppet regime, the alleged attacks against the U.S. destroyers occurred. In essence the U.S. needed a casus belli, a reason to intensify its military actions against the DRVN. or face certain failure.

So, when the reports of the attacks against the Turner Joy and Maddox arrived in Washington, they served an important political purpose–to legitimize further attacks against northern Vietnam. At the time, there was confusion at best, and significant skepticism about the attacks. President Lyndon Johnson himself laughed "hell, those dumb stupid sailors were just shooting at flying fish." Subsequent research, especially by historian Ed Moise, indicates that the first attacks on August 2d may have occurred but the second set almost certainly did not. But the facts really didn't matter.

CONTINUED...

http://vi.uh.edu/pages/buzzmat/htdtistonkin.html

[coeur_de_lion]

39. No no, thank YOU. It was a very interesting post, and I enjoyed

the follow-up article you linked in response to my post.

Number of colleagues who asked why? -0-

Dad was the only one who said anything and his reward was a year in Vietnam, leaving a wife and 6 kids behind. It changed him forever, that experience. Not necessarily for the better.

I think that is one of the many reasons I despise *. If my old man could leave 6 kids behind to fight in Vietnam then * damn sure could have gone. And if he didn't gave the guts to go he has no business getting us into another *phony* war. That's all I have to say about that.

[Mika]

38. Gotta read "The Ultimate Sacrifice"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786714417/qid=1133631598/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-9739240-5752713?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. bush** didn't fall for phony intel, he ordered it up! nt