South Park on AA and 12 step programs

[Loonman]

Right on the money. Those guys are friggin' brilliant, even when they take a side I don't agree with, though that was not the case last night.


While Stan and the boys are in Karate class, his father is in a bar getting plastered. He gets pulled over for driving drunk and arrested. As part of his punishment, he must attend AA meetings. Mr. Marsh, being an irrational hypochondriac believes he has a disease(like cancer) when the AA people tell him that alcoholism is a disease. Mr. Marsh then gets and remains astoundingly drunk because the second step is that you can only be cured by putting your faith in a higher power. It goes on from there, involving a bleeding Virgin Mary statue and an appearance by Pope Benedict.

[soothsayer]

1. I wish they didn't make the virgin mary bleed from her ass.

I suppose it could have been worse tho.

[mattclearing]

6. I thought that was the funniest part. n/t

[johnnyburma]

15. Me too tasteblind

Offensive? You bet. Tasteless? Uh huh. Over the line? Maybe. Funny as shit? Oh yeah.

[thefool_wa]

105. She didn't..

She bled from her vagina.

[bluedawg12]

2. Actually AA is about drunks helping other drunks

stay sober.

It may mention a "higher power" since it seems alcholics have a tendency to want to control things and letting go is not such a bad idea. That could mean God, or Karma, the universe, or just a philosophy of realizing that human perfectionism is dangerous.

The virgin Mary does not enter into AA. Nor does any organized religion.

I have seen quite few friends get sober, with out paying a penny, with out drugs or shrinks, by going to AA.

I have seen South Park make people laugh- but never help them get sober.

So they can blow it out their ass.

[wtbymark]

3. AA is a faith based organization n/t

[bluedawg12]

25. I'd say AA is spiritually based, maybe theist, but

members don't have to believe in a higher power if they chose not to.

There is no specific religion or denomination involved. If you want to think of the higher power as simply universal goodness, or the sun Ra, they don't care and do not want any specific faith mentioned.

it sort of makes sense, when people are in emotional crisis to have something spiritual to lean on, say instead of a bottle of booze or a drug.

There is the prayer of St. Francis, The Serenity Prayer. Not a bad prayer to say for anyone of any faith, it's a mantra about being mellow.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. It "sort of makes sense"... for SOME people.

For other people, telling them they have to 'get' religion to stay sober, or being told that the fact that they don't have religion in the first place is the source of their problem- can be a deadly impediment.

AA works for lots of people. My problem with it comes in when 12 steppers assert that they have the only way that works, and that anyone for whom AA doesn't work just isn't 'working it'.

There ARE secular alternatives to AA that work for some of these people- I've seen it happen.

http://unhooked.com

[wixomblues]

58. AA is cultish about the 12 steps

I'm sure most people have been to a meeting, or know someone who has. I never got the whole "powerless" aspect of it, but I'm sure it applies to some people. Having a rich history of substance abuse in my family, I have different perspectives on addiction, and believe that it stems mostly from either unresolved trauma or an underlying selfishness that can be resolved through self reflection, will power, and therapy. The AA program works for some, for a lot, but then again, so does fundamentalist christianity.

[shrike]

66. What about the physical aspect of addiction?

I'm afraid that can't be cured by willpower. Of course, we're talking about detox in that situation.

Reasons for addiction are complex, and the people I've known who've sought treatment (they are many) usually used a variety of methods. I know almost no one who relied on AA exclusively, and while (some) devout atheists are offended by it, it does have a record of success. I suppose ultimately it is a tool -- but one of many.

BTW, I respectfully take issue with your "underlying selfishness" theory. The addicts I've known were undoubtedly self-medicating some underlying pain, or their own nervous system. It's no secret that many addicts and drunks have undiagnosed physiological/psychological problems (which you acknowledge), such as ADHD, depression, bipolar disorder, etc. It's called self-medication, and it takes many forms.

[Hello_Kitty]

81. Don't all human beings suffer from "underlying selfishness"?

Well actually with most of us it's right out there on the surface. Maybe trying to hide it drives you to drink ;)

[shrike]

84. Point taken

I guess because so many of my family members have troubles I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. But you're right, we're all intrinsically selfish -- and some are more selfish than others. Believe the professionals among us call those "character disorders," which doesn't sound quite so scary.:)

[wixomblues]

89. Physical addictions seem to be rare and narrowly defined.

From what I understand and believe. I know there are different schools of thought on the subject. As far as the selfish comment, I'm using the word in the clinical sense. Meaning, a lot of addicts choose to gratify themselves at the expense of their selves, and everyone who cares about them. Meaning, they could stop,. but choose not to, because they like the high or experience. It's my own, personal theory, and I believe that I am a "Selfish" user of nicotine. I don;t want to stop. or try and stop, because I like smoking too much.

[shrike]

91. Don't know how rare it is

Judging from the ease with which some people get hooked on medication.

I guess what you call gratification I'd call psychological addiction. Guess it's a potato/potahto thing, how you define it, or what your life view is, how much 'will power' you believe you have.

There are also those who think one can become physically addicted to nicotine.

[wixomblues]

93. I thought physical addiciton meant you die if you don't get a fix.

Or become extremely ill.

[shrike]

102. Yes

And that does happen, becoming physically ill (ask someone who's ever experienced the dts.)

[Warren DeMontague]

107. That's the case with plenty of severe alcoholics.

It can get EXTREMELY ugly.

[wixomblues]

113. I've been told that alcoholism is the only addiciton where you

can die from not getting the "fix". Everything else, you just become very ill, go into withdrawl, ect......

[Warren DeMontague]

114. Yeah, severe DTs can certainly require medical intervention.

Another reason why I don't begrudge anyone anything that keeps 'em sober. I wouldn't wish that nightmare on anyone.

[Nikia]

130. People occaisionally die from other withrawals

Xanax and realted drugs can produce a very nasty withdrawal syndrome in long term heavy users. Anyone trying to go off those drugs needs to slowly decrease their dose or they could have serious medical problems that are in some ways similiar to alcohol withdrawal. Occaisionally, people die from withdrawal, especially if they were not otherwise in good health.
Opiate withdrawal can cause death too, but usually only in people who physically unhealthy in other ways too.
Alcohol withdrawal and deaths from withdrawal are the most common though.

[High Plains]

132. Barbituate withdrawal can be fatal...

...never heard that about alcohol, though.

[Protagoras]

75. well said

There is no ONE solution that fits everyone. For many people AA is what works best period. For others it's a terrible solution. There are AA groups that would very closely mirror the parody on South Park...and many that look nothing like it. As anything on South Park...it's cheap, often funny satire performed by cartoon characters. I can't take any of it seriously...and I laugh a lot. I suspect Trey Parker's goal in life is to somehow offend every person on Earth before he dies...because he believes everyone is a bit too complacent.

I have no problem with the episode, not because it's accurate, but because satire should exist to make us look in the mirror and see what things we do that lends itself to parody. None of us are, or should be, above it.

And yes we're entitled to even be offended a bit while we laugh...or vice-a-versa.

[Marnieworld]

53. except in the prayer

you are talking to a God asking to be granted serenity. It is hollow and meaningless if you truly believe there is nothing that listens to or answers prayers. Nothing at all. The first sentence gone it's more acceptable but then of course it wouldn't be a 12 step group.

[Hello_Kitty]

79. Try being an atheist in a 12 step program

I did. The supposed distinction between "religion" and "spirituality" is nothing but semantics to me. The expectation is that you will come to believe in a supernatural being. They'll let you slide for a little while on that but if you don't make the expected conversion you find yourself being excluded. Non-believers are not well received. If you have a copy of the Big Book, read the Chapter to the Agnostics. Insert the word "Jew" or "Catholic" every time you see agnostic or atheist and see if it looks OK to you then. Imagine if 12 step programs treated Jews or Catholics the way they treat non-believers.

I spent a few years in various programs to deal with personal and family issues and not only did it not help me, it really screwed with my head. But I realize other people do get help in them. That's great but they are not a solution for everyone, and can even be detrimental to some. So although I generally support their existence, I really think the courts should stop forcing people to go to them.

[smirkymonkey]

116. I have and it's difficult.

I really struggle with the whole "higher power" thing, but fortuanately I live in a large city where there are entire meetings for athiests & agnostics and other meetings where the "god" thing is minimalized. You can only "act as if" for so long.

[Hello_Kitty]

124. It is better in big cities

Overseas as well. I enjoyed going to meetings when I was stationed in Japan and Canada. There was much less emphasis on the God thing and more on getting to the bottom of your problems. When I got back to the States I started feeling feeling guilty and awkward again and had to leave. Luckily, I found a caring therapist to help me work through my family issues.

[mandyky]

121. A friend of mine in AA had a tree as

a "Higher Power" and the step that mentions God goes on to say as we understand him. Many Feminists in the room add him or her.

[Loonman]

4. Wow, that's profound

:banghead:

Did you see the episode or are you just stackin' bull patties?

[bluedawg12]

26. It's profound? But is it incorrect? n/t

[Bridget Burke]

5. The Virgin Mary bit is a good way to get the Catholic-haters...

Always a bonus!

And I know people who've been helped by AA who did NOT belong to any organized religion.

[mattclearing]

10. Nevermind all the hate the Catholic church trades in.

There are perfectly legitimate reasons to dislike the Catholic church, and the Church institutionalizes irrational hate of gays, despite shielding its priests from their pedophilia. "Catholic-haters," as you call them, in my experience, are often less morally objectionable than the Catholic church itself.

Back on topic, AA helps people, but the God-based steps are dumb (in my opinion), and serve to rob people of their self-confidence and their dignity.

Disclosure: I attend AA meetings.

[Bucky]

21. So, you see, it's perfectly moral to make jokes about the Virgin Mary!

A bleeding anus Virgin Mary? Gosh, what a witty and clever parody they've fashioned there!

You'll excuse me if I'm not overwhelmed by their Swiftian erudition here.

[mattclearing]

72. And it's perfectly moral to ignore the Catholic Church's conduct.

:eyes:

[msongs]

128. mary committed adultery with god. she had a husband you know nt

[TrogL]

38. You need to attend more

the "God steps" are about letting go of control.

[Marnieworld]

54. then why don't they just say that?

Instead of having to do mental gymnastics to come up with the metaphor it's really trying to say they should just go straight to the metaphor and leave all that God stuff out.

[mattclearing]

74. You don't know me well enough to make that assertion.

Once you let go of control, in terms of AA, you are no longer responsible for your actions. I find that absolutely unconscionable and dangerous, and that's exactly what Matt and Trey were trying to point out.

[mondo joe]

82. Yet I think that's why it's appealing to addicts.

I know and love several addicts. In fact my 8 year old daughter has every indication possible of being one, which is not a surprise given her biology.

And I have some real problems with addicts and adiction - which I do believe is an intrinsic. And one of those problems is a lack of personal accountability. I'm well familiar wuith what I call the Addict Attitude --- what I do only affects me, blah blah blah, with no accountability for how it impacts others as well.

So it's not surprising to me that a program that emphasizes your own lack of accountability resonates.

I personally think a lot of AA is bunk -- but it's also bunkthat seems to work for those involved. And I'd rather have them function with AA and its bunk than NOT function without it.

[mattclearing]

83. I can appreciate that.

I do think it would be better if AA were more based in personal responsibility, though. In the episode in question, Stan indicates its resemblance to a cult, and says he should know (alluding to his recent fling with Scientology).

Something about giving away your personal responsibility to a higher power worries me...I would prefer that AA leave out this part altogether and work towards a "I must acknowledge my behavior and work to change" philosophy, rather than a "I need God to remove my flaws" philosophy.

[Marnieworld]

7. yah right

I've been to 12 step groups and it is religious. Blatantly religious often. It closed and began with The Lord's Prayer. Higher power as we understood "HIM". It is just BS to say it could be abstract when you just can't have it be abstract and have any of the literature make any sense. You have known people to be healed from it and I have known atheists kill themselves because they think there is no help for them. It shouldn't be forced on people as a punishment because it violates the separation of church and state. Also studies have shown it is no more effective than any other method of being sober including just quitting cold turkey. It's a support group but it is not fact.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. I think it may vary, regionally, as well.

As an atheist, i had few problems with AA that I couldn't rationalize away, when I was living in the upper mid-west, but moving to the south I felt I was assaulted by prostelyzation. Still used the same Big Book, drank the same bad coffee, but the atmosphere was completely different.

So I left it to the christians and re-examined my own path.

It's working for me.

[Marnieworld]

12. It was central NJ believe it or not.

where the population is 50/50 christian/jewish so it was even more bizarre. I'm talking about several types of groups too.

I applaud you for your sobriety and I only wish peace for anyone trying to make a better life for themselves. I just hate the sentiment that it is the only way is all.

[Howardx]

13. its just a trade really

people trade boozing/drugging for being addicted to going to aa meetings.

[SPKrazy]

19. There is some of that

but how many people die of going to AA meetings vs. boozing and drugging?

And if someone stays sober long enough (and it's damned hard period) then they may be able to develop balance in their lives.

[TrogL]

40. really?? you get a seratonin or dopamine kick out of meetings?

It's time you learned something about addiction.

[JuniperLea]

41. Yes, you do get hormonal boosts from meetings

Some people get boosts from a shopping addiction, some from an addiction to exercise, some from eating, some from many other non-drug or alcohol induced activities.

People with an addictive personality often just switch addictions. I knew a lady who was an alcoholic. She quit drinking and her smoking got totally out of control. She stopped smoking and she started shopping compulsively. She stopped shopping and started eating. Stopped eating and started exercising compulsively until she ruined her knees and back and required surgery. Last I heard she was going on her 6th cosmetic surgery.

Maybe it is you who needs to learn?

[TrogL]

94. No, I don't

I know a hormonal boost when I feel one. Been there, done that.

I also know the "comfortably numb" feeling that I often crave.

I don't feel either one at meetings -- I merely feel safe.

There's more biologically to addiction that just "boost".

[JuniperLea]

96. Not everyone is the same

I said "you" meaning people in general, not all people. Sorry, I should have been more specific.

The point is, you have to find your own replacement.

It's good you feel safe though. Very good.

Take care.

[mondo joe]

57. I'd say yes. And there's the ritual and more besides.

I also think addiction is by and large biologically based, and it's a function of who some people are.

[shrike]

67. I'd agree with that

Which is one of the reasons it runs in families, IMO.

[SPKrazy]

18. It shouldn't be forced on people

but I disagree with your assessment of 12 step groups.

Were you able to get sober on your own?

(not trying to be sarcastic here, seriously)

I was only able with the help of AA.

[Marnieworld]

45. I wasn't having a problem with sobriety

I went to Al-Anon and ACOA and they were helpful to the point that it validated my experience but after a while it felt like a cult. I know people get a lot from it sometimes but I know others who don't. I smoked cigarettes for 6 years though and quit cold turkey in 1997 without any steps so this sort of thing can be done.

Have you ever heard of rational recovery? This makes the most sense to me. http://www.rational.org/

Peace.

[SPKrazy]

55. If Rational Recovery works for people, that is great!

12 step programs worked for me, and I am not naive enough to believe that they work for everyone.

I imagine that whatever works for a person is what should be used.

Too many people die, most of them in fact, from Alcoholism and drug addiction to spend time arguing about programs.

Live and let live!

Let each decide what works for them.

[Marnieworld]

60. I wish everybody felt that way

Too often 12 step groups are presented as the only way to heal or be sober and if that doesn't work for you then you are doomed. It's sad that it's considered established fact when it's really a theory. I'm not saying that someone can lose an addiction without some effort but there may be more than one way to do it. You sound more accepting than a lot of 12 steppers I've encountered. I wish you much peace and strength in your journey. :hi:

[Junkdrawer]

86. I agree Court-Ordered-AA is bad for the drunk and bad for AA...

Attraction rather than Promotion...

I've only rarely seen Court-Ordered-AA work and most times it just increases a drunk's natural initial-hate of AA.

AA kills the enjoyment of booze for a drunk. Nothing worse than a head full of AA and a belly full of booze. :evilgrin:

[TrogL]

39. You don't have to do the group prayers if you don't want to

For awhile there I was using the group itself as a "higher power" and it worked just fine.

[Marnieworld]

47. dupe self delete

[Marnieworld]

48. But my point is why the prayers there at all?

Sure I stood in silence as others recited the words but standing in silence is not a very supportive experience. Feeling different is not belonging. Constantly filtering out what doesn't make sense to me doesn't help. They say it can be abstract but it really is not. It has a religious history and to say it doesn't is just not true.

I guess if you are desperate for help it's worth it to do the mental gymnastics involved but it's wrong that it's forced on people. It's wrong that it is commonly believed to be the only way. I reject the premise of the disease concept. I rejected a lot so I left it for people who didn't.

[SPKrazy]

59. The history of 12 step programs is pretty interesting

and the fact that they have moved to a much more inclusive stance that has helped literally hundreds of thousands if not millions, is at least amazing, if not "miraculous"

AA started with a few drunks sobering up in a Christian organization

Early AA often involved locking people in a room until they "let go" and prayed to God

They later realized that AA needed to be available to anyone that wanted it

Groups will vary about how they deal with prayer and spirituality. A lot of it can be regional, but not all.

Every AA group that splintered off from another was started with a resentment and a coffee pot.

So AA is a broad path that people find recovery in.

I've met atheists (devout ones) who were content in AA,
I've met rabid fundamentalist Christians who were discontent in AA (too much foul language, unlike their drinking days I'm sure)

I think that when a person is ready AA or other 12 step programs can help

Again that doesn't preclude any other way a person can find to get better.

You mentioned Rational Recovery.

That wouldn't have worked for me as I understand it because it doesn't demand putting the plug in the jug. I tried umpteen times to "control" my drinking and was unsuccessful.

I found where I needed to be. I pray that others find where they need to be.

[SPKrazy]

20. Agreed n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

32. Actually, a lot of people have big problems with the religiosity

of 12 step programs.

Sure, some people may be able to go through semantic contortions, but the whole thing is fairly "God" (as you understand him/her/it) centric. Which is fine- for SOME People.

There are secular alternatives to AA, also groups of drunks helping other drunks stay sober, that don't go the higher power, 12 step route.

I'm of the opinion that, hey, whatever works-- but people should know that AA isn't the ONLY way, particularly those folks who aren't into sitting through the lord's prayer or being told to "pray" about their problem.

[KitchenWitch]

33. I agree with you about whatever works

and that there are other alternatives, but the broad brush bashing of AA as cultish and the like is patently incorrect.

:hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

35. I know a lot of AA people.

I wouldn't broad brush it at all- it works for lots of folks. And more power, or powerlessness, to 'em. I just think it's important for people to know that there ARE alternatives.

:hi:

[KitchenWitch]

36. Agreed!

[Marnieworld]

50. precisely my point

:applause:

[Marnieworld]

51. precisely my point

:applause:

[mondo joe]

56. I think AA is just trading one addiction for another.

Instead of the drinking, they are addicted to their AA.

And as AA is a much less harmful addiction, that's fine with me.

Having known a few addicts, I would not say in any case the problem was a tendency to want to control things, but rather an absolute lack of self control, and an abundance of shame based denial. But I think that's intrinsic - not a moral failing.

[snooper2]

71. Your wrong...

From someone who has been to several AA meetings, they are all "religous". That is why there are many secular and non-religous groups based on some of the same principles/structure as AA.

Like - http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm


Just read the steps, and notice Gawd with the big G :)

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs 4 .

[trixie]

129. Just another reason not to take responsibility

I don't like the usual 12 steps program for this reason. Stop touting a "higher power" and start to emphasizing personal responsibility. I took a friend to one (desperately needed help) and had to walk out because of all the pseudo-religion. It made me sick.

[Arkana]

8. I loved the episode...thought the whole thing was just really funny.

[julialnyc]

9. I didn't see the episode, but this reminds me of a book I just read

A Million Little Pieces by James Frey is an autobiography about going through the process of healing from addiction.

His biggest problem throughout the rehab process was the higher power element of the twelve step program.

It's a good read.

[Johonny]

14. Ok episode

Didn't really get the whole an alcholic doesn't have a disease. But then any father that gets his medical opinions from a 10 year old boy probably deserves what he gets.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Usually, I stay out of these threads, but

My 2 cents. I like AA. I'm an atheist. I have no problem with it. Nobody has a problem with me being an atheist.

The episode does sounds hilarious, and for anybody who doesn't knows AA--AA doesn't give a shit-- members of AA might, but AA as an organization doesn't care. That's the position with any kind of public "controversy"-- AA as a whole stays out of it.
If you get busted drunk driving take the Jail option that's usually offered--then you don't have to go. In fact personally if you drive drunk, that's where I think you belong. I do understand the kind compulsive drinking and behavior that leads to alcoholism however.
I've seen some fucked up shit.

I have a real problem with drunk drivers. Not funny.

And since I work on a transplant unit where I see trashed livers from effects of alcoholism, I don't care WHAT people do to stay sober if they have alcoholism. Once cirrhosis sets in, your liver doesn't care if it's a case of beer or a fifth of vodka a day or once a month binge drinking, or just 20 years of heavy drinking after work. Some people have a liver enzyme deficiency that will cause cirrhosis even quicker.
A lot of these people don't like AA, RA, SOS, NA, treatment, drug court or whatever other treatment options available. They want to drink even when it's gonna kill them. And they do. If only they didn't fuck up there families or kill people driving while they're doing it. If only they didn't take away limited resources clogging up court systems, hospitals, Psych wards etc. They get sent to AA 'cause it's cheap. And for a few, it works.
People drink themselves to death daily. Shitty (literally) way to go.

[SPKrazy]

17. Hey, if you don't want to go to AA, you shouldn't go, and judges

shouldn't order you to.


On the other hand, AA is a great organization to which many belong, even atheists.

If you can sit and believe that you are the most powerful thing in the universe then you are too arrogant to get sober. If you can believe that there is "something" out there, even the laws of physics, then you can get sober!

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity.

Could be the AA group too.

But if you don't want to go, then don't.

And like I said, it is wrong for judges to order people to go, but they do.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

22. I'm in the program too.

I came into AA on my own. But if the judge doesn't order some people into the program, how do they know there is help available?

[SPKrazy]

24. That may be true, but I think that AA education programs

used by AA's outreach to the legal system committee( I can't remember the name right now) is useful

We did education for juveniles that had alcohol offenses, they had to come to a room in the courthouse and learn about AA and if they wanted to go, then they could go.

But I know that thousands of AA members have come through the courts so I shouldn't speak so strongly, I just know that it seems to grate on the nerves of those opposed to AA and to many who are members of AA who worry about their anonymity and won't attend meetings where court ordered persons attend.

Open meetings are open for persons who are interested in learning about AA.

Court ordered persons should be welcome there too.

[sandnsea]

28. That's the way it works

If you don't want to go to a meeting with court orders, go to a closed meeting. Pretty simple. The alternative is court ordering people to treatment and there isn't enough public treatment to pay for it. AA is a good place to begin. Besides, most treatment facilities order people to AA meetings too. We could go back to the days where the choices were jail or nothing.

[SPKrazy]

42. I do think Jail or Treatment, or AA is a legitimate choice n/t

[High Plains]

134. For what?

I assume you are talking about the courts ordering people to be treated against their will. For what offenses should this apply?

[Warren DeMontague]

135. If a court is going to order it

they HAVE to give people, particularly atheists, the option of secular alternatives as a choice, too.

There are meetings of people helping people stay sober that aren't AA or 12 step-based, and they work for some folks, too.

[ismnotwasm]

46. Or mental institutions

As late as the 1960's, chronic alcoholism was a reason to be locked up in a nut ward.
Interesting how an illness/disease/afflication (whatever people want to call it) that costs billions of tax payers dollars has gotten under the radar in the public eye again.

Maybe because bush/cheney both have a history of heavy drinking accompainied by DUI's. And look at them now. They certaintly overcame thier drinking problems, no? Now they just plain ol' evil, starting wars and shit.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gee double you bee]

27. wait wait wait

We (liberals) are supposed to be anti-AA? When did this happen? I swear to god I had no idea this was a thing. And what's this about people not thinking alcoholism is a disease? Isn't that up there with denying global warming or believing in intelligent design, or am I way off the map here?

[stickdog]

30. I don't think this is a litmus test issue, GWB.

I'm all for AA in as much as it helps some people, which it definitely does.

But getting over problems with alcohol is not a one size fits all deal.

[SPKrazy]

43. Opinions on DU vary widely, I'm sure that many more do not

bash AA or 12 step programs

or believe that Alcoholism isn't a disease

I hope so at least!

[mondo joe]

63. I have real misgivings about AA - but that doesn't mean I'm anti-AA.

Frankly, if sleeping with a teddy bear at night got alcoholics to stop drinking, I'd say give em all teddy bears.

If AA is what does it, then by all means let them use AA.

That said, I have misgivings about it and really don't think it should be forced on people.

[stickdog]

29. My friend Jerry Joseph says he has a two step program.

1) Stop drinking.
2) STFU about it.

[SPKrazy]

44. Well Good For Him!

But not everyone can do that!

[XemaSab]

31. I'm not in AA and I'm not Catholic

and I thought the episode was really cruel. I thought it demeaned both alcoholism and Catholocism.

I have friends who are addicts, and it's sad.

If AA helps even a fraction of people stay sober, then it's a good thing, and people who are not alcoholics can't judge people who are. I thought the whole episode had a "why don't they just STOP drinking?" mentality, and it's just not that simple.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. I also think that those South Park guys are VASTLY overrated.

The movie had some funny moments, but they've flatulated their 15 minutes well past what their 'talent' deserves. And their 'team america' jingoism, liberal-bashing and thinly veiled shilling for the right wing is nauseating.

Give me Beavis and Butthead ANY fuckin' day.

[mattclearing]

92. South Park is in its 8th season, and it's the most

consistently funny weekly show on television, with a nod to the Daily Show, which runs more often.

B&B, as great as they were, were not in South Park's league.

Team America was pretty horrible.

[Neil Lisst]

49. You're right. SOUTHPARK nailed it on both counts.

SOUTHPARK nailed it on both the whole thing of treating inanimate objects that ooze some liquid as if they are holy, and the religious fervor connected to AA.

[Marnieworld]

52. I tivo-ed it last night

Thank you for recommending it. I loved it. It was great. It also could have ridiculed the groups so much more than it did. It did just enough to make the point.

[SOS]

61. Fortunately

most people do not base life or death decisions on the musings of shrill, poorly animated, right-wing cartoons.

[graywarrior]

62. Fact: AA is not a religeous organization

Fact: If it was, I would not be sober today.

Things I learned in AA: it's not all about me, I don't control the world, and I need to develop a sense of humor about myself. Therefore, South Park is funny.

[Junkdrawer]

68. Self delete - posted wrong spot.

[porphyrian]

64. AA externalizes responsibility for alcoholism.

First of all, even if a Mary statue bleeding out of its ass isn't funny, hearing so many people talk about it is.

Second, I don't really care how people get the help they need, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else while doing so. And, as in the case with alcoholism, when the problem causes mor problems for others than the cure, I say pray to Ghanesh with a glow in the dark toilet on your head if that helps you get better. However, I think we should be able to talk about the means honestly despite the end result.

Involving a "higher power" to cure you takes your responsibility for your actions out of your hands. Obviously, alcoholics (and I have a problem with the relative and often arbitrary application of that word as well) are not doing so well controlling themselves if drinking is ruining their lives, unless that's their goal. I think this is happy horseshit. No one controls you but you, and if you can't do it, it's your responsibility to do something about that as well. Instead of praying until some external force cures you, why not get some fucking therapy and fix whatever it is that is driving you to drink uncontrollably in the first place? I understand that there are genetic and physical addictions involved, but those don't kick in until you start drinking once you've dried out, and there's no reason for you to do that if you've got your shit together. Anyway, if you want to call alcoholism a disease, fine. But don't pretend or encourage people to believe that it isn't one the alcoholic is responsible for curing themself.

[TrogL]

98. You need to go beyond step 2

[porphyrian]

104. Why? Does that change my analysis?

Is that like Scientology, where in the next stage I find out everything I've learned so far is bullshit and it's really about aliens or something?

Again, my problem is with externalizing responsibility for one's actions. I've acknowledged that AA can cure some alcoholics of their drinking problems, but so can shooting them in the head. My point is that the end doesn't justify the means. Do later steps reverse teaching the alcoholic to externalize responsibility for their problem?

[Warren DeMontague]

106. I have to disagree with you:

it's not up to YOU to decide whether the 'end justifies the means' vis a vis AA - for other people.

I know people who wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for AA. I also know people who got sober through other means. As far as 'externalizing responsibility'; I'm of the opinion that severe alcoholism, at least some of the vicious forms which have affected my family, is a physiological disorder with a definite genetic component. Me, personally, I was NEVER able to drink normally. From the very first drink I had a different physiological response than the people I know who 'can' drink.

Yes, the alcoholic has the ability, and the responsibility to him or her-self, to stay away from that first drink. But going through an entire life without ever taking a drink can be something of a challenge, too- I know plenty of people who are most certainly NOT alcoholics, but if you said to them "you can never drink at ALL, ever", they'd have trouble with it.

I haven't known too many alcoholics who have been able to get sober solely by endlessly beating themselves up for their problem, anyway.. besides, it kind of goes with the territory. If you're concerned that there are all these alcoholics in AA meetings skating around gleefully guilt-free for the shit they've caused through their drinking, you're living on a different planet than I am.

That said, I'm sober today without AA or the 12 steps, and I credit myself as much as I credit anyone or anything, although I think a decent helping of Buddhist-style 'letting go' has a good chunk to do with it- which could be analogous to some of the spiritual angles taken by various 12 steppers. I don't 'blame' anyone for my inability to drink, certainly not myself- if anything, I blame my genes.

My point? Only that addiction, chronic alcoholism in this case, is an extremely difficult, intractable problem to grapple with in one's life. If 'turning the problem over' to a higher power can save someone's life, why should that bug you? I don't begrudge AA people what works for them- I'm happy they're alive and sober. Just like I don't want other people to tell me how to live or what to think, It's no business of mine to criticize what works for someone else. To each his own.

[porphyrian]

117. I'm not telling anyone what to think, I'm making a point.

I just believe that it is inherently dangerous to externalize responsibility for one's actions. I've already said that I acknowledge the effectiveness of AA for some people, and bully for them. However, I don't agree with the method, just as I don't agree that pregnancy is a result of "God's blessing" rather than two fertile people fucking. This isn't about believing what you want, it's about being responsible for your own actions, and how those actions affect the world around you. Believe whatever you want, but I don't think it's a good idea to encourage people to believe that they aren't responsible for their own actions.

[Warren DeMontague]

119. I'd argue this isn't about YOU, at all.

Particularly if you don't have the problem.

Don't like AA? Don't be a part of it. I'm not.

But to snidely argue that alcoholics should just 'get some fucking therapy and fix whatever is driving you to drink' displays a far more dangerous misunderstanding of what I, personally, KNOW (not 'believe') about chronic alcoholism and the physical addiction that often accompanies it than anything anyone is getting in an AA meeting. I know people who, were they to drink a bottle of wine right now, would have to endure 36 hours of potentially life-threatening shakes, DTs, and heart palpitations once they finished that bottle- if they didn't want to open another one. Is that what happens to you? If not, then you don't have a fucking clue as to what these folks have to deal with.

And what the fuck is up with all the bitterness? I'm not a 12 stepper, I think it's important that people know that there ARE secular alternatives to AA if they want to get and stay sober- but I really am not sure why you're grinding such a huge axe against them. AA saved my dad's life, and he was not the kind of person who ran around going 'la, la, la, see, I'm not responsible for my actions'.

I think if you've never dealt with this kind of problem, you have no business smugly blathering about how other people should handle it.

[porphyrian]

120. Thanks for your input. - n/t

[SOS]

131. Interesting...

You write "I don't think it's a good idea to encourage people to believe that they aren't responsible for their own actions"
Yet the first thing I saw at my first AA meeting 13 years ago was a sign on the wall that read "I am responsible"

[shrike]

65. Addiction is so tragic

for so many people and their loved ones -- Two of my cousins are recovering addicts: cocaine and alcohol. AA helped, but it wasn't the only thing: they both underwent an in-patient treatment program. Neither considers himself cured because they feel complacency would be dangerous.

The whole alcoholism is a disease thing: it's possible to be a problem drinker and not an alcoholic. There's a difference between addiction and getting plastered every weekend because you're angry at the world. I know a son of an alcoholic who believes it is a moral weakness, not a disease. But I think that's just because he has continuing issues with his father.

[Junkdrawer]

69. Every wrong-headed cliche against AA was used, but the real tragic...

part was in the end where they suggested that drunks should not give up drinking but rather should limit consumption to 2-4 drinks a day through will power. That shows a profound misunderstanding of alcoholism.

I have 17 years clean and sober thanks to AA, I am not a theist and I get along just fine in the program, and I tried will power for 18 years before I got sober with no effect.

Flame away.

[SharonAnn]

70. 20 years of sobriety and I still know I can't drink "just one or two"

It just doesn't work for me. One or two drinks and then I needed more, more, more.

For me, this saying is true: "One drink is too many and 20 is not enough."

AA was extremely helpful to me. I also had access, through my employer's Employee Assistance Plan and health insurance, to outpatient counseling along with it.

I'm not sure that either alone would have been enough for me to stop and to stay sober for 20 years. I'm really fortunate that I had access to this and hope that others have access to these and other programs so that they can find what works for them.

I saw the South Park episode and though I thought most of it was just tasteless, kind of junior high school boy stuff, the advice on just having the discipline to have one or two drinks at the end of the show was just plain wrong advice for most of the addicts I've known. That's the one thing most of us cannot do and so we have to face the face that for us, zero is the right number of drinks and our discipline needs to be staying away from the first one.

I don't have all the answers, but 20 years of sobriety has allowed me to have a life and I'm extremely grateful for that.

[mondo joe]

78. But there ARE people for whom moderation management does

work.

Everyone's not the same, and total abstinence isn't necessary for everyone.

[shrike]

88. There's some disagreement as to whether these folks are really addicts

or just abusing alcohol. There seems to be a difference. (I use 'addict' as a statement for all drugs, including alcohol.)

A person who is physiologically or psychologically dependent on alcohol is going to have a tough time controlling him/herself. But a person who just overdoes it is something different.

I knew a couple who had three or four martinis every day during cocktail hour -- hell of a lot of booze, if you think about it. One day they realized that they were getting older and couldn't handle it as well -- they were having "accidents" at home. So they just stopped, and confined all their drinking to wine with dinner.
AA would be silly for those two. But they weren't addicts, they were just overdoing it at that point in their lives. I truly think there is a difference.

[sandnsea]

97. AA is the first place to tell people to go try it

And try it again. And get back out there and try it again. AA doesn't force anybody into anything. People are perfectly welcome at open meetings who are still drinking. Lots and lots and lots of people have gone to meetings for months and continue drinking and moderating. I had a guy come out of a blackout in the middle of an AA meeting once, now that was a hoot. If a person can moderate their drinking and live a functional life, they aren't alcoholics and don't belong in AA. AA's would be the first to tell them that. In fact, it's almost there word for word in the big book. "Our hat's off to them."

[Warren DeMontague]

110. According to my definition of alcoholic

if you can manage to moderate, or you do better just by cutting down, maybe you're a 'problem drinker'.. but I wouldn't identify that as alcoholism.

I'm of the opinion that people with real alcoholism, particularly a physical addiction to alcohol component, can't moderate. But I also don't think AA is the only answer out there for them. Again, whatever works.

But I no longer have ANY delusion that I, personally, could 'just have a few'. Shit, what a pain in the ass that would be, and really unpleasantly ugly to boot! (Folks who've been there understand what I'm talking about) I'm far happier staying the hell away from it entirely.

[shrike]

126. That's how I understand it as well

My brother overimbibed at a time in his life when he was very unhappy, but now he can manage to have two or three beers over the course of the evening and drive home safely. Ergo, someone like him would be a problem drinker, not an alcoholic.

[Junkdrawer]

127. While I was "out there", I sometimes had to spend hours at business..

diners nursing a few drinks. Pure torture. It got to where I was MUCH more comfortable avoiding booze at these occasions with some excuse or another.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. The idea that true alcoholics could have 'just a few' if they only 'tried'

Now, that IS funny.

[More Than A Feeling]

73. Stan's line about being a cult leader

and the kids' pronunciation of the word "discipline" were the best parts of that episode.:-)

[Loonman]

76. The subject South Park will never take on

I know it sounds bad, but if South Park ever did a full length half hour show lampooning Islam, they'd be putting their lives into their own hands.

[mattclearing]

80. Did you not see Team America? n/t

[Bushy Being Born]

87. ...or the "Osama has farty pants" episode

[genie_weenie]

77. Did the Resident go to AA?

Just wondering were he got his faith from?

[shrike]

85. Nope

Which is why some AA members, like Martin Sheen, have called him a "dry drunk."

[TrogL]

95. Martin Sheen should not be breaking anonymity

I hated, loathed, detested, absolutely cannot stand Dick Van Dyke. I hated his TV shows, I hate his movies, I hated the air that he breathed. (yes, I know I'm mixing my tenses, you'll understand why)

A number of years ago he quit drinking in a rather public way and there was an article in TV guide giving broad hints that he was in AA. I got the impression that he had become a spokesperson for AA.

Hence, when it came time that I needed AA it wasn't there for me because I would have nothing to do with anything associated with Dick Van Dyke.

In hindsight it seems fairly silly, but it kept me out of AA for five years.

[sandnsea]

99. Now that's funny

That has got to be the funniest bit of denial I've ever heard. No, it ain't that religion stuff or the stigma or all those mangy freaks, it's that goddamned DICK VAN DYKE sumbitch. Nah, I never met him, never plan on meeting him, hell I don't even live in the same part of the country as he does. But if he's got anything to do with that AA, I ain't goin'.

bwahahahaha

Glad you made it.

[JVS]

100. WTF?

Did Dick Van Dyke kill your whole family or something?
Why did you have such a hatred for the man?


If I died because I refused to ride in an ambulance built by Ford, just because I hate that shitbag Toby Keith, it's not Ford's fault.

[shrike]

103. Forgot about the anonymity part

Well, maybe I misconstrued what he said -- maybe I assumed Sheen was in AA when he didn't specifically mention it.

Sorry your Dick Van Dyke dislike kept you out of AA. I do understand that is part of the program -- keep the names out of it, the 'friend of Bill's' stuff.

[stickdog]

123. How could anyone not love Diagnosis Murder?

Just kidding.

I'm a proud member of DVDA, myself.

[Warren DeMontague]

112. I disagree.

At least with the 'dry' part. I say he's back on the sauce.

[shrike]

125. You have a point

Although it's possible Sheen was being kind. Or hopeful.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. No, there's a whole bunch of stuff about 'humility'

and 'rigorous honesty and self-examination'...


does that sound like our shithead-in-chief?

[Bombtrack]

90. That was the worst South Park episode in 2 seasons

which is pretty damn bad since these 2 seasons have not been spectacular.

There were a few laughs at most in it, and one of them was "What seems to be the officer, problem?", which is still a pretty derivative joke. THAT'S HOW THEY'RE GONNA GO OUT?

BTW I'm as anti-AA as anyone. I got dragged to that $hit as a kid and probably mentally scarred from the stupid experience and those stupid people just like Stan did. It isn't about me disagreeing with their message at all, I've LOVED some of their episodes where I disagree with the message completely.

It just was boring, tired, and unfunny.

[mattclearing]

101. I thought it was pretty funny.

And I think South Park is pretty consistently funny. It is certainly more funny than anything else on TV.

[MrSlayer]

108. Yes, hilarious with a good point as usual.

I love South Park.

[Dances with Cats]

115. AA has helped alot of people.

As for putting Your faith in a higher power in Step 2, AA never identifies a particular higher power. For example, the AA group itslef could be looked upon as a higher power (higher than the addict seeking help)
People who post negative 12 Step posts help no one.

[Neil Lisst]

118. SOUTHPARK was correct about three things.

The whole 12 step routine works for a certain type of person, and it doesn't appear to work for any others. When people are in crisis, whatever it is, they look for salvation. Some find it in religion. Some find it in 12 step programs. Some find it in some cause.

AA works for some people, just as Jebus works for some people, just as Nation of Islam works for some people. Those who find salvation in something often believe it offers similar salvation to everyone, not realizing that their way is just one of many ways.

I prefer logic and reason to faith and prayer. The starting point is: everyone is responsible for himself, and if he doesn't commit to change on his own, he's probably a lost cause. Those who need to believe that only God or the "higher power" can save them may be right, but only for themselves.

SOUTHPARK made three good points:

1. Not everyone who abuses alcohol is an alcoholic.
2. People get mad when you attack their sacred cows, whether the sacred cow is the Catholic church or AA.
3. The religious fervor some in AA have is just as offensive as the religious fervor of those on the religious right.

[Dances with Cats]

122. people who have been jerked back from the edge of the abyss

tend to exhibit a little fervor.

[Rocknrule]

133. I thought the AA meeting part

made fun of a similar scene in "Half-Baked." Also, I don't think South Park is conservative satire. Watch the "Ladder to Heaven" or "Best Friends Forever" episodes, or even the movie, they make fun of everyone pretty much equally.

[maveric]

136. I was scorned at an AA meeting for not participating in the Lords Prayer..

at meetings end. The Protestant version too. I told them that I'm a lapsed catholic and not a Xtian. This control freak navy chief, who was running the show told me that I have to participate to attend this meeting. Most at the meeting just stared at me like I was an alien from space. I had to leave before they could do their prayer circle.
That was my last AA meeting and now I only drink when I want to, which is not very often.

AA is good for some people but not for everybody.