once and for all: meat eating is the cause of most human illness

[rainy]

Heart disease: not possible for non meat eaters as the arteries cannot become clogged on natural plant foods. This means skipping the middle isles in the grocery stores too. Statistics state that only 3percent of heart disease comes from heredity. The rest all diet related.

Cancer: Cancer cannot grow in a alkaline body. Meat is acid forming in the body. Meat robs the bones of calcium which is the great neutralizer. Calcium reduces the acid in the body. When you eat meat your body has to give up it's stored calcium to balance to alkaline. This is why meat eaters get osteoporosis and non meat eaters do not.

Finally in the other threads people mention that Chimps and gorillas eat some meat. Remember that they eat it raw getting all of their nutrition from the LIVE CELLS in the LIVE animal. DEAD MEAT is deadly.

[arcos]

1. !

:popcorn:

[kanrok]

36. Oh, yeah...popcorn is bad for you also.

:hide:

[Angry Girl]

114. It is actually: Popcorn is the #1 cause of tooth erosion below the gumline

My dentist and his crew of dental hygienists have told me this over and over. We hadn't eaten popcorn in weeks and floss regularly and sure enough, the dental tech dug up several kernel hulls way below the gumline. They said they dig up popcorn kernel hull fragments below the gumline from patients on a regular basis. The shape of these hulls fits perfectly against the tooth underneath the gumline such that even flossing won't remove it. These hulls will then erode the tooth for years to come. Nice, huh?

[converted_democrat]

128. I didn't know that! Thank you for sharing!

I eat very little sugar, and I could not figure out why I have been getting more cavities than usual. I eat popcorn every night, because I thought it was healthier for me than "sugary snacks." The uptick in cavities came a few months after I started eating pop corn regularly at night. That makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for sharing!

[Angry Girl]

146. That's possibly because of the high carb content

I think popcorn breaks down into simple sugars in your mouth (unless you don't chew and just swallow the stuff whole), which then act pretty much like plain ol' sucrose, which sets up an acidic, bacteria-friendly environment. The tooth erosion takes months if not years.

[alarimer]

137. I haven't had that problem

Maybe i've been lucky or don't eat much popcorn.

[lastknowngood]

2. And most human survival.

n/t

[rucky]

3. I turned (semi) vegetarian about 2 weeks ago.

the less meat I eat, the better I feel. no doubt. Beans and Tofu supplement the protein just fine - and that "faux meat" out there is getting pretty realistic.

[rainy]

4. Also our planet is being destroyed by the process of raising

meat. We use so much land to grow the PLANT food to feed the animals that we consume. Their poop is destroying our waterways and the chemicals we use on the plants and to clean up after the animals is gross. The way we slaughter animals is gross. Mad cow, avian flu, need I say more.

The human race will one day evolve to an all plant diet. This will mark our ascendance to more intelligent and peaceful beings. Read my words below.

[awoke_in_2003]

19. And don't forget

the methane in cow farts.

[phylny]

5. You say:

"Heart disease: not possible for non meat eaters as the arteries cannot become clogged on natural plant foods."

Then you say:

"Statistics state that only 3percent of heart disease comes from heredity."

So, it IS possible for non-meateaters to have heart disease.

P.S., my grandma's been eating meat for 95 years. Amazingly, no heart disease, no cancer, and she's still alive and well.

[Spinzonner]

10. And it is possible that your Grandmother has undetected cancer

Cancers can exist without being detected or harmful

Fo example, many Prostate cancers are slow growing, undetected, and unlikely to have harmful effect before somethign else kills the man.

And heart disease can come in many forms and there are congenital cases of cholesteral problems.

And, of course, if you accept the OP's premise - which I don't necessarily - it still dosn't mean that your Grandmothers lack of detection of either prove the opposite. It merely can demonstrate that there are degrees of susceptibility at both ends of the curve.

[phylny]

23. She's 95 years old! And healthy.

Undetected cancer hasn't killed her yet :)

[Spinzonner]

33. Good for her

May she live many more years in good health.

Doesn't mean she doesn't have disease processes. Health and disease is relative.

[knitter4democracy]

60. You've got to be kidding.

It's pretty nasty to attack someone's, by all accounts, healthy loved one just to prove a point. Next thing we know, when she does die a natural death, you'll use that to prove your point, too.

I don't know many in their nineties who aren't at the doctor's office a lot. They are seen often, tested often, and taken care of (at least, in my hubby's practice they are). If she had cancer to the point of it being an issue (and that's always the question), they'd most likely know by now.

[Spinzonner]

72. YOU have got to be kidding

Who's attacking anyone ? I wished more years of apparent health for her.

Perhaps you should actually read the postings instead of proceeding directly to defensive mode.

I merely pointed out that lack of impairment or overt symptoms is not, by and of itself, an indicator of the absence of disease processes. It just indicates that either it hasn't been looked for, is too small or low, or whatever to be detected by any observations or tests applied, or just not noticed.

I was pointing out to the poster that fact that she didn't evidence disease didn't proof its absence.

[knitter4democracy]

78. My issue

You blessed her with many more years but at the same time said that she most likely is really sick without anyone knowing it and probably has cancer already growing somewhere inside of her. How is that not a nasty thing to say about someone else's loved one?

You could've made your point without using the poster's loved one as the example. That would've been a better route. You didn't "merely point out" anything but instead made it sound like she was dying as we write. You could've softened your tone more or used someone or something else as the example to make your point.

Btw, I never post without reading all of the postings. I love how everyone here immediately uses that as the reason someone disagrees with them. :eyes:

[Spinzonner]

85. There you go again

I never said that she most likely had cancer and I surely never said that she is most likely really sick. That would be an obvious contradiction because the poster said she appeared and acted healthy and didnt have any detected illness.

I simply pointed out that disease processes exist - sometimes for long periods - long before they either cause visible or impairing symptoms and so the absence of evidence is not absolute evidence of absence.

I referred to her because the poster did. Are you also asserting that s/he shouldn't have used the grandmother as an example or is that criticism reserved for me ?

And, of course, we are all dying as we right simultaneously as we live. The rates differ. She might yet outlive any of us.

It is pretty clear that you have not read carefully and critically because you have mischaracterized most of the things I said. Or just made stuff up.

[knitter4democracy]

90. Fine.

I'm an overreacting idiot who cannot possibly read anything well, and you are the most wonderful writer in the universe. I bow down to your obviously amazing skills at the keyboard and admit that I cannot, in any way, shape, or form, be right.

Better? :eyes:

I have read and re-read the posts (all of them), and I'm still bothered by your tone. I would be upset if someone said my loved one probably has cancer, even undetected, and could die from that, even though she looks healthy. That it's true, and it could be, is not the problem as much as how it was said.

God forbid you try to read your posts from another point of view or anything.

[Spinzonner]

104. Stick to facts

Exactly where did I say 'probably' has cancer ?

I did say possibly has undetected cancer. I could have undetected cancer. Anyone could have undetected cancer. Its possible that everyone has undetected cancer because it is a natural process that is kept under control by the immune system under most circumstances (but that goes beyond this issue).

If you're going to criticize tone then recognize that you're reflecting a reaction that you had. If you're going to criticize use of relatives as examples, then criticize all who do so and not only someone who is following consistently with the example presented. If you're going to criticize, then criticize what is actually there, not what appears to exist only in your mind.

I love sarcasm myself and am not particularly bothered or offended by it. But your use of it isn't particularly effective because it isn't based upon what's actually there or claimed.

[RagingInMiami]

112. So all of us carnivores are dying a slow death

While all the vegetarians and vegans are living healthy and well, just waiting to dance on our graves. I think I'll go have a bacon cheeseburger.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

115. If I had only known those cheeseburgers were going to give me

Cervical cancer, I never would have eaten them. :eyes:

[mcscajun]

175. I go along with Fatburger on this one...

"Do you really think man clawed his way to the top of the food chain to eat soy?"

:rofl:

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..........Bacon Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeseburrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrger.

[TankLV]

127. Yes you did and you know it.

It is very underhanded and unfair.

But you would never acknowledge that.

I just had to come into this to let you know that we all can see what you did/are doing.

It isn't prety.

Stop it.

[phylny]

136. You're so right! It also doesn't mean that she has any disease at all. n/t

[all.of.me]

44. my mother is 92

eaten meat all her life, usually two meals a day. her heart is stronger than any her doctor has ever seen in anyone her age. she just had a bout with pneumonia for over a month, but that meat-eatin' heart got her through it. she's back home now, in great physical health. amazing.

[suziedemocrat]

58. I've been veg since 1986 - but I don't think it will keep me from disease.

Linda McCarthy got breast cancer after all. I think meat may be bad, but giving up meat won't make you live forever.

[Thirtieschild]

120. My mother is 97

has eaten meat all her life, at 82 tests showed her arteries were only 25% blocked, came through major surgery just fine when she was 93, has a mind as sharp as it was when she was 25 (writes poetry, works the crossword, reads, follows baseball, plays bridge, teaches a Texas domino game, loves movies). It's hard to see how meat has hurt her.

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Would you like to back up your statements

with some links? I just don't buy these stats. I know at least a few long term vegetarians who have had all sorts of health problems including cancer and heart disease.

[rainy]

11. Herman Aihara: acid and alkaline

CAUSE OF CANCER & pH

Herman Aihara, in his book entitled “Acid & Alkaline”,

states that:

If the condition of our extra cellular fluids, especially the blood, becomes acidic, our physical condition will first manifest tiredness, proneness to catching colds, etc. When these fluids become more acidic, our condition then manifests pains and suffering such as headaches, chest pains, stomach aches, etc. According to Keiichi Morishita in his Hidden Truth of Cancer, If the Blood develops a more acidic condition, then our body inevitably deposits these excess acidic substances in some area of the body such so that the blood will not be able to maintain an alkaline condition which causes these areas such as the cells to become acidic and lowers in oxygen.

As this tendency continues, such areas increase in acidity and some cells die; then these dead cells themselves turn into acids. However, some other cells may adapt in that environment. In other words, instead of dying - as normal cells do in an acid environment - some cells survive by becoming abnormal cells. These abnormal cells are called malignant cells. Malignant cells do not correspond with brain function nor with our own DNS memory code. Therefore, malignant cells grow indefinitely and without order. This is cancer.

[TommyO]

16. Is Herman a doctor?

Are his studies peer reviewed and published?

Why the crusade against other people eating meat?

[rainy]

20. We so readily except the concept of military industrial complex

have you ever heard of the pharmaceutical industrial complex? It works the same way. When natural cures are discovered they are outlawed by the powerful pharmas. They say you are a quack and minimize your research and hide it from the public.

[smoogatz]

43. Nonsense. According to you, anyone could make any ridiculous health

claim and it would bear as much weight, for you, as a hundred years of scientific study. You're indulging in the same kind of sloppy thinking as the intelligent design numbskulls. If a "theory" comes along that supports your beliefs, you'll shout it from the rooftops--no matter how ridiculous it is on its face. Pseudo-science thrives thanks to people like you.

[derby378]

135. I'll take that as a big "NO"

Medical quacks are a dime a dozen, and they threaten the health of society by convincing them that doctors are trying to suppress knowledge. They did this a hundred years ago while peddling worthless elixirs before the Pure Food and Drugs Act was passed in 1903 to stem the tide of quackery in America.

Either show your work in this homework assignment or please step aside for those who have actually studied this.

[rainy]

18. from www.focus-on-nutrition.com

Neutralize the Acid
As we have stated on other pages the basic metabolism of the normal cell is changed when it becomes cancerous. (for details see How Cells Change To Become Cancerous ). The cancer cell becomes "stuck" in an anaerobic (without oxygen) state. One result of this process is a high level of lactic acid being formed. Reports indicate that the cell gives off this acid into the surrounding cellular fluids. Thus, the cancer cells are living a "cloud" of acid. Since molds and fungus thrive in an acidic environment it is no wonder that doctors often find molds and fungus in and around tumors.

The acid also has other detrimental effects.

Acid inhibits the immune system
The acid inhibits the immune system from finding and destroying the cancer.

"Therefore, an acid pHe obviously impairs fundamental cellular regulation, which finally prevents the killing process. In summary, our data show a strict pHe dependence of various killer cell functions. Thus, an acidic microenvironment within solid tumors may contribute to the observed immunosupression in vivo, compromising antitumoral defense and immunotherapy in general respectively." {1}
The acid environment has also been implicated in increased metastasis (spread of cancer to other organs) and angiogenesis (growth of new blood vessels) to feed the tumor).{2}

[RagingInMiami]

117. That website sells health products and quotes Bible verses

Why should I believe them over any other fundie company?

http://www.focus-on-nutrition.com/index.shtml

http://www.focus-on-nutrition.com/ProductList.shtml

[knitter4democracy]

48. Blood very rarely becomes that acidic.

It usually happens because of an infection. Eating meat doesn't necessarily make our lymph and blood acidic.

Abnormal cells survive because the body doesn't see them and kill them. That's the real problem. Normally, the body identifies them and kills them off before they become a problem, but it doesn't always do that. When it doesn't, there exists the possiblity that those cells might become cancer.

By that guy's definition, I have cancer. I have endometriosis. Endo is a disease in which abnormal cells from one part of the body (endometrium in the uterus that have mutated somewhat) grow in an abnormal place (elsewhere in the abdomen, on the ovaries, etc.). It's not cancer, though, but it has cancer-like characteristics. Not everything can be simplified down to bumper sticker clarity when it comes to our bodies.

[giant_robot]

171. Anybody with one semester of college-level biochemistry...

...can tell you that that statement is complete and unadulterated bullshit. The blood is buffered at a pH of 7.4 by the carbonic acid-bicarbonate buffering system. If it goes up or down by 0.2 you become very ill with acidosis or alkalosis. If it goes up or down by 0.4 or more you die.

It amazes me that such an obvious and easily-debunked fallacy can persist in the public consciousness.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. And you have some proper scientific backup for your claims, do you?

For instance, where are these statistics you refer to? Who says that eating meat alters the pH of your body - and that this has something to do with cancer?

And your claim that raw meat is healthier than cooked is highly dangerous, because of the bacteria and parasites that get killed during cooking. If you're going to advocate vegetarianism, do so with some decent facts, not highly dubious assertions.

[rainy]

8. From healingdaily.com

Virtually all degenerative diseases, including cancer, heart disease, osteoporosis, arthritis, kidney and gall stones, and tooth decay are associated with excess acidity in the body. While the body does have a homeostatic mechanism which maintains a constant pH 7.4 in the blood, this mechanism works by depositing and withdrawing acid and alkaline minerals from other locations including the bones, soft tissues, body fluids and saliva. Therefore, the pH of these other tissues can fluctuate greatly. The pH of saliva offers us a window through which we can see the overall pH balance in our bodies.

Cancer cannot exist in an alkaline environment. All forms of arthritis are associated with excess acidity. Acid in the body dissolves both teeth and bones. Whatever health situation you are faced with, you can monitor your progress toward a proper acid/alkaline balance by testing your saliva pH.

What does "Acid" and "Alkaline" mean?
Water (H2O) ionizes into hydrogen (H+) and hydroxyl (OH-) ions. When these ions are in equal proportions, the pH is a neutral 7. When there are more H+ ions than OH- ions then the water is said to be "acid". If OH- ions outnumber the H+ ions then the water is said to be "alkaline". The pH scale goes from 0 to 14 and is logarithmic, which means that each step is ten times the previous. In other words, a pH of 4.5 is 10 times more acid than 5.5, 100 times more acid than 6.5 and 1,000 times more acid than 7.5.

Acid and Alkaline Minerals and Foods
Minerals with a negative electrical charge are attracted to the H+ ion. These are called acid minerals. Acid minerals include: chlorine (Cl-), sulfur (S-), phosphorus (P-), and they form hydrochloric acid (HCl), sulfuric acid (H2SO4), and phosphoric acid (H3PO4). Minerals with a positive electrical charge are attracted to the negatively charged OH- ion. These are called alkaline minerals. Nutritionally important alkaline minerals include calcium (Ca+), potassium (K+), magnesium (Mg+), and sodium (Na+). To determine if a food is acid or alkaline, it is burned and the ash is mixed with water. If the solution is acid or alkaline then the food is called acid or alkaline. Ash is the mineral content of the food.

Ways to Restore Acid/Alkaline Balance in Your Body
If your saliva is too acid you would benefit from increasing the alkalinity of your body. Ways to do this include:

1. Eat mostly alkaline foods.
The general "rule of thumb" is to eat 20% acid foods and 80% alkaline foods. Avoid the "strongly acid" foods.

Strongly Acid:meat, fish, soft drinks

Mild Acid: grains, legumes, nuts

Mild Alkaline: fruits, vegetables, berries, dairy

Strongly Alkaline: green leafy vegetables, brocoli, spinach

2. Supplement your diet with alkaline minerals.
Salts of the alkaline minerals cesium, rubidium and potassium have been found by Dr. Brewer to be particularly effective in fighting cancer. Dr. Gerson, founder of the Gerson cancer therapy, " A Cancer Therapy: Results of Fifty Cases and the Cure of Advanced Cancer " (page 246) gave his patients a 10% potassium solution. Potassium tablets are commonly available. Potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) can be used as a substitute for sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) when baking. You might try mixing a teaspoon of potassium bicarbonate with water and drinking it before going to bed each evening.

Another good source of information on the body ph problem is essence-of-life.com.


3. Supplement your diet with freshly made fruit and vegetable juices.
As a treatment for cancer, some doctors recommend one 8 oz glass per hour for every waking hour of the day. We could never eat the amount of nutrition we drink with these juices.

[laruemtt]

9. we have a sign on our fridge:

Alkalinize or Die! i talk to the doctors i work for as a transcriptionist and ask them if they learned in med school about the inability of disease to grow in an alklaine environment. they look at me like i'm talking greek to them. i can give myself a cold in three days by eating dairy food. our digestive system is so obviously that of an herbivore. conscious eating helps too.

[DrRang]

40. So why do humans have 27 enzymes to digest meat? n/t

[jeffrey_X]

143. link?

..

[RagingInMiami]

119. Guess what?

You're still going to die.

[Spinzonner]

15. And of course anything your read or hear on a web site must be true ...

[rainy]

24. absolutely, Ha Ha!

Actually health is one of my passions. My other passion is human rights. So here I am discussing health.

I've read so many books on food you wouldn't believe.

[RagingInMiami]

121. What about my right to eat meat

Without being scolded and told I'm not really progressive?

[rainy]

22. I do not advocate eating raw meat. My point is that all

nutrition originally comes from plants. Eating raw meat as raw meat eating animals do, supplies the LIVE nutrients that their bodies need. The animal being eaten got its nutrition from plants. Why not just eat the plant instead of the animal. All the minerals, enzymes and vitamins originated from the plants to begin with.

[Lindacooks]

99. You don't get enzymes from eating plants - they're denatured in the

very acidic environment of your stomach. And yes, I have a degree in Biology and another in Food Science.

[SidDithers]

118. Now, don't go bringing facts and science...

to what otherwise is a very nice fairy tale.

You'll only get called a scientific fundamentalist, and get accused of being a card-carrying member of the agri-pharma-military-skeptic indusrial complex.

:toast:

Sid

[High Plains]

173. I don't want to spend all day grazing.

[Vinca]

12. I agree with the original poster, but when you stop eating meat,

how do you get protein? I went veggie once, then read about soy being a potential cause of dementia and went back to being a carnivore. A person can only eat so many beans and nuts.

[rainy]

26. I love gormet rices and I eat lots of nut butters, almond, macademia etc

[organik]

161. WHAT?

To not get enough protein, you have to be starving. If you're getting enough calories, you're getting enough protein.

This protein myth is pervasive and ridiculous. The most protein you ever need is when you're an infant, and mother's milk is roughly 5% protein. Most fruits and veggies have 5% protein. Beans and nuts obviously much more. It's really not an issue.

[ShadesOfGrey]

162. I've been a vegetarian for 30 years...

My first 20+ years I was a junk food vegetarian (ie. I didn't worry about protein, vitamins, etc). The past 5 years I've been trying to incorporate more protein into my diet so I've been experimenting with Tofu, etc. I'm not sure why I felt like I needed more protein in my diet as I've always felt great without it. Maybe I just bought into the protein propoganda? I'm the only vegan in my family and I'm also the only person in my family without any major health issues. Hmmmm.... I am really starting to love Tofu now though! All bases covered! All is well!

[smoogatz]

13. Nothing like a little pseudo-medical nonsense to start the day.

Please provide sources for these ridiculous claims.

[rainy]

27. Read my above post with sources:

[Strong Atheist]

14. PETA,

as others have said, People Eating Tasty Animals! Yum ....:evilgrin:

Eat right, exercise, and die anyway!

Enjoy life, I say, which includes for me consuming lots of yummy animals ...

[rainy]

28. we will all die but do we have to die in pain and suffering?

We were not meant to be so ill and in pain. This is not the best we can be and our diet is to blame. You must admit it can't be what nature intended us to eat. Especially all the sugar and fat.

[Strong Atheist]

30. Actually, since our teeth

show that we are still omnivores, I would have to say that "nature intended" (to personify the inanimate, as you did) that we eat anything that does not eat us first!

[ShadesOfGrey]

165. Whatever floats yer boat!

I'm a "strong atheist" too. Compassion floats mine!

[mcscajun]

177. I believe there's a place for all of nature's creatures...

Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy. :rofl:

Pass the Salt, please. :)

This seeking after long life is a crutch. Enjoy your life while you have one. Pick your poison and die accordingly, I say.

[da_chimperor]

17. Meat eating is also the best way to retain muscle mass in old age.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4502862.stm

And it's tasty. :9

[MadisonProgressive]

63. First link in this thread - Congratulations!

[rainy]

77. I do not know how to make the link connect to the source but

I have supplied sites to visit and I can mention many books on the topic. Starting with "Diet for a New America" by Robbins.

[da_chimperor]

107. Thanks.

It struck me as odd that the OP did not link to the 'articles' in question. Then I looked at the site and realized why.

Not enough people realize that anyone can make a web page.

[sabate]

21. Ortolan recipe

The birds must be taken alive; once captured they are either blinded or kept in a lightless box for a month to gorge on millet, grapes, and figs, a technique apparently taken from the decadent cooks of Imperial Rome who called the birds beccafico, or "fig-pecker". When they've reached four times their normal size, they're drowned in a snifter of Armagnac.

Cooking l'ortolan is simplicity itself. Simply pop them in a high oven for six to eight minutes and serve. The secret is entirely in the eating. First you cover your head with a traditional embroidered cloth. Then place the entire four-ounce bird into your mouth. Only its head should dangle out from between your lips. Bite off the head and discard. L'ortolan should be served immediately; it is meant to be so hot that you must rest it on your tongue while inhaling rapidly through your mouth. This cools the bird, but its real purpose is to force you to allow its ambrosial fat to cascade freely down your throat.

When cool, begin to chew. It should take about 15 minutes to work your way through the breast and wings, the delicately crackling bones, and on to the inner organs. Devotees claim they can taste the bird's entire life as they chew in the darkness: the wheat of Morocco, the salt air of the Mediterranean, the lavender of Provence. The pea-sized lungs and heart, saturated with Armagnac from its drowning, are said to burst in a liqueur-scented flower on the diner's tongue. Enjoy with a good Bordeaux.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

37. ok i'll say it

WHAT THE FUCK!?

[kanrok]

38. I'll bet it tastes like chicken.

n/t

[RagingInMiami]

123. My recipe for Buffalo wings is based on that

[derby378]

156. Noooooooo, thank you

No wonder so many Roman houses had vomitoriums - with a diet like that, they needed them!

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Meat eating is also the reason humans as we know them exist at all.

Without meat, our primate forebears would not have gotten enough protein for homo sapiens to evolve these oversized brains we have. Had our ancestors not been hunters, our brains likely would not have evolved the advanced visual and spatial processing and pattern-recognition that form a large part of what we recognise as human cognition.

As to your points re: meat, I see several flat assertions with no supporting evidence. (NB: Biased sources such as "holistic medicine" and "natural healing" websites do NOT constitute acceptable evidentiary sources.)

[rainy]

32. Where is your source of facts:

I say it is the cause of our disintegration into disease. Many isolated societies thrive in the wild but once the west comes in and rapes their land to plant sugar and other profitable crops or to mine their natural resources we destroy their health and turn them into proverty stricken third worlds which we exploit even further by promising them inferior goods and now the need for medicine.

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. I have two words for you:

"evolutionary biology". You may want to read up on it.

Here's a bit of evidence for you: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

And can you tell me what the life expectancy is in these isolated societies? How long can an Amazonian tribesman or a New Guinea headhunter expect to live? Can you say they've no need of medicine?

[rainy]

71. What illness would they endure?

What has medicine cured? Antibiotics help the immune system which is so compromised by our foul diet. Stop eating un healthy food and you will not be sick.

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. That's utter nonsense.

Antibiotics don't "help the immune system"; they kill bacteria. You obviously haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

[druidity33]

51. Maori?

Don't they survive (by all accounts, healthily) on pretty much nothing but blood and milk from the cows they keep? And as a vegetarian (NOT vegan) for 14 years i can say with unfortunate certainty that i have just as much likelihood for Heart Disease and Cancer because i smoke cigarettes (gasp, shock, horror)... so just because you eat the strictest, healthiest diet doesn't mean that other life factors won't cut you down early (stress KILLS too). Personally i have an objection to the meat INDUSTRY, and look forward to living on a Biodynamic farm in the future where i can enjoy meat a few times a year as the farm cycle would dictate. Any word on the differences in acidity between grassfed hormone free meat and the other kind? What about Moderation? Did you become a vegetarian because you just don't want the animals to die? Or are you concerned about the health of People?

[rainy]

75. I always thought health problems could be corrected by diet

I didn't want to heal myself with medicines so I researched all the possibilities. I am a vegan now to save the planet and the human race. After reading Diet for a New America, by Robbins I realized how the factory farming industry is destroying our planet and making us sick. I've read every book out there on health and nutrition just about. Plant based diets seem to be the best and people are happiest on these diets. No ADD, no anxiety, no clogged arteries, no cancers etc.....

Maybe small amounts of meat is OK as long as you eat lots of veggies to keep an alkaline balance which I believe is key to good health and happiness. I've never been happier and I have days of complete euphoria due to my raw food diet. I am so at peace on this diet it is unreal. I love feeling this way and think it is ideal for me.

[knitter4democracy]

82. It's a more complex problem, though.

Not every patient in the hospital is there due to bad diet or accident. Some are there due to toxins in their environments, some are there due to their immune systems going wonky or shutting down completely--not due to diet as much as an unexplained phenomena yet. It could be many things all working together to make those people sick.

Medicines exist for a reason: to help people get better. Would you refuse meds in the hospital if you got a bad staph infection from a cut on your leg? I used to think I could treat my endometriosis purely with diet and stress-reduction, and then it kicked my ass and got amazingly worse last year. Did I start taking more pain meds? Absolutely. I have two young children at home and a husband who works long hours. Did I still stick to diet and stress-reduction? Of course, as they had proven themselves to work in the past, but I didn't refuse all medical options just because I had a pet theory about them.

I think it's all personal. Some people get very ill on a vegetarian diet, and some get very ill on an omnivore diet. I was an ovo-vegetarian for years when I started having horrible cravings for tuna right before I got preggers the second time. I ignored them at first, but then I decided that maybe my body was trying to tell me something and ate some. Not only did I not have pain, but it tasted good. I kept eating tuna (not too much, mercury and all) all through my pregnancy and nursing for two and a half years. After weaning my son, tuna started not tasting good again, and the last time I had it, my pain came roaring back, so I'm off all meat again. It's about listening to your body and eating what it needs, I think.

[druidity33]

138. i read too...

the local library is one of my fastest friends. I would only consider eating meat on any sort of regular basis if i lived/worked on a Biodynamic farm. I am coming closer to that goal as i have worked on such farms in the past and live near a few that in the next couple of years i will have built a strong relationship with... check out www.brookfieldfarm.org.
Also take a gander at...

Dwellers in the Land- Kirkpatrick Sale (treatise on Bioregionalism... where does your food come from? If you couldn't go to a store to get your foods, could you grow or obtain foods locally that would keep you healthy? etc)

Farms of Tomorrow Revisited- Groh & McFadden (on Biodynamic farms in practice and their trials and triumphs)

sections of Secrets of the Soil- Thompson and Bird (for an intro into Biodynamics)

look into Rudolf Steiner (Waldorf school guy, Biodynamics inventor, Anthroposophy starter, etc)

As far as eating meat in general, the idea doesn't offend me. I repeat, the INDUSTRY does. In the past 14 years, my body has exhibited cravings for meat occasionally. I would consider a reasonable amount of meat to be once or twice a month. I have no problem personally with eggs and dairy products on a more regular basis (again with the same INDUSTRY stipulations). I believe we can all coexist... carnies, semi-carnies, veggies, vegans,etc... what we should all be promoting is the SAFETY of our food. We should be looking into the INDUSTRY to assure FOOD SECURITY and SUSTAINABLE PRACTICES. Just my 2 cents...

[Beacho]

139. I think you mean the Masai

nomadic cattle herders of sub saharan Africa

[druidity33]

147. yes, yes, oops...

Maori are New Zealand, right? Sorry, got my tribes mixed up.

[Crunchy Frog]

64. Actually, alot of those isolated societies eat a fair amount of meat.

In fact, the health of the Eskimo population was virtually destroyed when "enlightened" westerners encouraged them to change their diet from the traditional almost all animal product one, to one dominated by processed flours and sugars. Most people in traditional societies are pretty well adapted to whatever they've been living with and eating for the past few thousand years, and they don't do well when that, as well as their entire environment, gets suddenly interrupted. Has nothing to do with the quantity of animal products consumed, in fact, they probably usually end up eating less meat than they did before.

[druidity33]

130. unfortunately there are toxins

in the most remote places now and mercury and heavy metal/pesticide/toxins are being found in every species in and around the Eskimo's prime fishing/hunting lands... some of the highest recorded contaminated breast milk in the free world. Their indigenous diet, indeed their way of life is threatened at every turn. I hope they can find a way to survive without entirely sacrificing their traditions.

[shrike]

93. This poster is right.

Our brains grew from eating animal fat (putting it in the simplest of terms.) Any evolutionary biology book will tell you that. If we'd remained vegetarians we'd probably still be in the trees, along with the rest of the great apes.

[RagingInMiami]

125. I've read that before

[PhilipShore]

29. Good article- I will not eat meat again.

I consider myself a vegetarian because I desire to eat meat. I do eat no meat--most of the time. After reading that excellent article-- I will not eat meat again.

It was right after I ate some hot dogs,that my heart rate went up.

And of course the emergency room doctors--would not tell-- me that new, medical research shows that meat can cause problems.

[FlaGranny]

49. Has it ever occured to you that hot dogs

are loaded with a zillion different chemical additives, including nitrate and nitrite, and it might be one of those, rather that the beef and pork that caused your reaction?

[PhilipShore]

53. Yes

Yes, that was my conclusion that it was food poisoning, caused by the hot dogs.

I was diagnosed with mitral valve prolapse, which is not a serious heart problem-- but when I changed my diet to vegetarian oils, non meats and herbs, the chest pain went away.

I took no meat herbs (made from vegetarian foods) such as Valerian root, and another one, I forgot the name of it-- helped alot with actual chest pains. When , I went to the heart doctor and a regular doctor they just said deal with it, because they have no medical cure for it or medicines to help you.

______________________________________

May 1996 | The Holistic M.D.
Mitral Valve Prolapse
by Ronald Hoffman, M.D.

http://www.consciouschoice.com/1995-98/cc093/hmd093.html

Valerian (heliotrope), calms the central nervous system, relaxes muscle tissue, and is effective for insomnia, with no morning after-effects. Dosage: Valerian is commonly available in capsule form or as an infusion. For acute conditions, 2-10 ml. tincture of valerian up to every two hours.

[knitter4democracy]

56. They said what?!

I don't think my internist hubby would ever tell a patient with mitral valve prolapse to "just deal with it." That's a serious condition, and there are treatments for it. Of course, he always tries to get his patients to go a more natural route first (lose weight, exercise more, eat more veggies and less meat and dairy, stuff like that), but very few of his patients seem to want to go that way. If he has one who does, he supports them 100%.

There are bad doctors out there who don't know what they are talking about (I've seen a couple myself), but remember that medicine is more art than science. There's just too much info out there for any one doctor to assimilate completely and be able to apply perfectly in every case.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. My college roommate was a vegetarian since childhood

She was a 7th Day Adventist. She never ate meat. She died of breast cancer last year.

A Hindu mother of a student of mine is also a lifelong vegetarian and she has colon cancer.

[rainy]

35. Vegetarian does not mean non animal eating.

They may have eaten cheeses and other acid forming foods. Maybe they ate lots of junk with hydrogenated oils, which are just as deadly as cooked animal fats.

[calico1]

34. I think we all need to do what is best for us.

If you don't believe in eating meat, don't. I agree its important to keep the alkaline levels high. I am not vegan but I don't eat tons of meat either. And I eat lots of fish. And not tons of anything. I eat lots of fruits, veggies, salads and I buy organic for almost everything we eat around here. I think that's important because its not only what you eat but how what you eat was treated and where it came from. I also drink a green drink every day. Being vegan will not guarantee you anything. Like I said, do what is right for you. I am always wary of the absolute conclusions any theory comes to. It isn't that simple. Linda McCartney was a vegan and she died of cancer.

[kanrok]

39. I follow that great scientist/philospher Joe Jackson on this issue

to wit:

Everything
Everything gives you cancer
Everything
Everything gives you cancer
There's no cure, there's no answer
Everything gives you cancer

Don't touch that dial
Don't try to smile
Just take this pill
It's in your file

Don't work hard
Don't play hard
Don't plan for the graveyard
Remember -

Everything
Everything gives you cancer
Everything
Everything gives you cancer
There's no cure, there's no answer
Everything gives you cancer

Don't work by night
Don't play by day
You'll feel all right
But you will pay

No caffeine
No protein
No booze or
Nicotine
Remember -

[Jim Sagle]

41. Chickenshit bullshit.

[name not needed]

42. Does this mean I get to force my beliefs on you now?

[PhilipShore]

45. Dr. James Howenstine-High Meat Intake Appears To Cause Cancer

By Dr. James Howenstine, MD.
December 27, 2004
NewsWithViews.com

http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james22.htm

The Atkins Diet, which recommends a high intake of meat and dairy products combined with carbohydrate restriction, has enabled many persons to lose weight. There is evidence that a high intake of red meat may cause an increase in both cancer and heart attacks.

____________________________________________


Newsgroups: alt.support.diet

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dieting-faq/part4/

If you just can't live without meat, eat meat, but eat leaner cuts and smaller portions.


* Don't beat yourself up if you "fall off the wagon" and indulge (or even
overindulge) in something you think you shouldn't have eaten. An episode of
uncontrolled eating does not mean that you or your diet failed, just as a
minor fender-bender doesn't mean that you or your car are totally
unworthy of ever appearing in traffic again. ¨

When it comes to improving your health, doing something, no matter how small, is always better than doing nothing. You may not be willing or able to adopt all of our
suggestions regarding nutrition and exercise, but everybody can work some of
these changes into their lives.

Try switching from whole milk, regular mayonnaise and salad dressings to their nonfat counterparts. If you just can't live without meat, eat meat, but eat leaner cuts and
smaller portions. If you can't exercise every day, at least take the stairs
or walk around the block every once in a while. The more you can do the
better, but even the smallest changes can improve your long-term health
and your self-image.

[knitter4democracy]

46. Ummm . . . then why do vegetarians still get cancer and h.d.?

Non meat eaters do get osteoporosis and cancer and heart disease and diabetes. Maybe they don't get them in the same numbers, but that doesn't mean that they can't get them.

Look, I'm a vegetarian for health reasons (my endometriosis lesions really hate it when I eat meat or dairy), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that going veg will take away all health problems.

Cancer can grow in an akaline environment in the body. There are many different kinds of cancer in many different environments in the body. If it only grew in acidic environments, we would only get stomach cancer, but that isn't the case.

Doctors have dismissed that theory because it didn't stand up to research and basic microbiology. I agree that Pharma's evil and does many horrible things for greed, but don't believe the crap that says that they won't let anyone publish anything on natural cures (just read a few old JAMAs to see that natural treatments get published all the time). Doctors aren't owned by the pharmaceutical industry--my husband sure isn't.

[FlaGranny]

47. Then tell me why

heart disease as we know it was nearly nonexistent 100 years ago. It is probably diet related - but not so much meat related.

And what of the scientists who now say that pre-modern human intelligence developed when they began to get better nutrition from meat?

What of hundreds and thousands of years of evolution - all to be disregarded? All humans have eaten meat since the beginning.

I'll have to think about meat being deadly, considering how my parents lived to 89 and 94 years, eating "dead" meat their entire lives.

Look to diet for the causes of disease, but look for recent additions to the diets of people, not things that humanity has survived on for many thousands of years.

[calico1]

52. Good points.

The diet and how we get our food today (and how it is treated--both animals and produce) changed drastically after WWII. Processed, frozen and packaged food began being commonly used starting in the 50's and this has steadily increased. Fast food consumption which was once a rare, once in a while treat is now the main diet of many Americans. Technological advances automated a lot of jobs that once required manual labor, thus decreasing the physical exercise that used to be a part of most people's lives. I could go on. But my point is there are many pieces to the puzzle. It is overly simplistic to pick one thing and say that is the sole cause of all our ills.

[jbnow]

66. I think you're right

that what we add to feed and to food creates all sorts of problems.

I'll never forget meeting a couple who needed help with their mom who'd had a stroke. She was over 100, they were in their late 70's. I had to ask to see their license, I swear they looked 40, tops.
They did eat some meat. They raised and grew everything they ate. They never had anything with preservatives and they felt that and genetics was the whole of their health and youthfulness. Very odd.

I googled 'study vegetarians cancer heart disease' and while initial post was exaggerated in its claim there is no doubt that eating a lot of vegetarian foods (even if you eat meat) you decrease many forms of disease. And ischaemic heart disease and certain cancers do go up with eating red meat.


I looked for long term university studies, obviously can't be double blind studies.
So eat your nuts, fruit, legumes and salad

When in doubt, google.

[FlaGranny]

76. Much of the food we eat bears

no resemblance to its original state. Just need to read the packages to see what's inside. High temperatures kill off whatever enzymes may have been in the food, vitamins are lost during the processing. Then many unpronounceable things are added to make it look and taste like food again(after the flavor is destroyed by the processing). Other additives are used to make the food last for years on a shelf. Then we eat the stuff and wonder why we don't feel so well and keep putting on the pounds.

No doubt the studies showing an increase in heart disease and cancers go up with eating red meat are not wrong, but they are misleading. The red meat they're talking about is high fat and high cholesterol farmed beef and bears little resemblance to "wild" meat that humans evolved on or even the beef your grandparents ate. Cattle were picked for their ability to get fat fast to make more money and then fed very unhealthy diets (for them) in order to make them fat. They were not chosen for nutritional superiority.

Our entire food supply is produced with profit in mind - using the cheapest ingredients possible (i.e., high-fructose corn syrup is cheaper than sugar).

[IndyOp]

94. It isn't just 'meat' - it is what is now in 'modern meat' --

"Modern meat" is a recent addition to the diets of people.

The chemicals they put into the animals to raise them on factory farms -- hormones and antibiotics in megadoses. Growth hormone can stimulate the growth of ALL cells - including cancer cells. You eat the meat, take in some of the growth hormone and if you have cells that are cancerous they are more likely to grow into a tumor instead of being combated by your body's natural defenses.

The "food" they feed animals on factory farms is horrid. It is still legal to grind up animals that died before being slaughtered for the factory and feed them to the other animals. Well what did those animals die of? Diseases - including cancer.

Finally, because we have to feed the animals tons of plants to generate pounds of meat for human consumption all of the pesticides used on farms to grow plants are in meat in higher concentrations than in plant food. If you eat non-organic plant foods you getting lower concentrations than if you are eating meat.

I do know enough about physiology to know that any chemicals put into a living organism have effects on tissues throughout the organism and that they are either released in urine/feces or they stay in the tissue. If the chemicals/toxins being put into animals are staying in their tissues and you are eating the meat then the chemicals are getting to you.

Prostrate cancer and colon cancer are practically unheard of in vegetarians.

An excellent work of fiction with good facts about this "My Year of Meats" by Ruth Ozeki.

Finally - it is a red herring to argue that because some people live healthfully to a ripe old age that everyone can have the same success living the same way. My brother-in-laws' family is full of hugely obese people - 300+ pounds. They eat terrible diets - high cholesterol, high fat, no vegetables. Test them and they all have low cholesterol, low blood pressure. His mother did die of cancer young (age 54), but otherwise they are healthy. No **way** could I get away with eating what they eat and not have cholesterol that was sky high. Conclusions about 'eating this' or 'eating that' causes _____ -- are always based on entire populations, how most/many people will respond physiologically to that food. There are always exceptions.

:hi:

[calico1]

105. You are right.

"Modern" meat, but also "modern" vegetables. I buy organic veggies and plan to buy my meat from now on from a local rancher that raises them the way they used to be raised. As for vegetables, the pretty, perfect looking vegetables we see in the supermarket today are also a product of modernization. Unfortunately, most consumers demand that the apples they buy for example look pretty. I buy organic. I am lucky enough to have several sources. That they are pretty or not doesn't bother me. The vegetables our ancestors ate were much less pretty but much more nutritious.

[IndyOp]

109. You are right about the veggies too --

Mike Malloy was talking a few months back about perchlorate in breast milk -- a defense contractor in Colorado releases the chemical into the Colorado River watershed and that water is used in most farms in California. Lettuce is full of water. Now women across the country have perchlorate in their breast milk.

Buy organic veggies and if you eat meat - buy organic, local meat. It is healthy for you and healthy for the planet.

And you now have my humming Joan Baez "Hey farmer, farmer put away the DDT, now. Leave me the spots on the apples, but leave me the birds and bees. Pleeeease."

:hi:

[calico1]

111. That is exactly what I have started doing.

Not only that, but I figured if a lot of familes in the US (even city dwellers) managed to grow some of their own fruits and veggies during the war, then why can't I? So that is what I plan to do. And organic of course. As I am a city raised gal myself, it should be interesting. :) But hey, I am willing to try. Also want to plant some of my own apple trees in varieties that are more rare and not mass produced. As for meat, I don't eat a ton as I stated in a previous post and I have researched some local ranchers that have good reputations. In general my feeling is the less a food source has had to travel to reach you, and the the more local it is, the better. :hi:

[foo_bar]

54. these things are always good for 5 recommends

Heart disease: not possible for non meat eaters as the arteries cannot become clogged on natural plant foods

Is heart disease strictly a function of athrosclerosis? You can test this theory by drinking nothing but black coffee for a month, then getting an EKG.

Statistics state that only 3percent of heart disease comes from heredity.

Well, that settles the nature vs. nurture argument.

Cancer: Cancer cannot grow in a alkaline body.

Promoters of these products claim that cancer cells cannot live in an alkaline environment and that is true, but neither can any of the other cells in your body.
...
Taking calcium supplements or drinking alkaline water will not change the pH of your blood. If you hear someone say that your body is too acidic and you should use their product to make it more alkaline, you would be wise not to believe anything else the person tells you.

- Gabe Mirkin, M.D., re: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

Calcium reduces the acid in the body.

It also leads to calcification of the arteries and heart disease, if you want to be a purist.

[ananda]

55. Overeating anything can cause problems...

Too much of anything can lead to disease and physical ailments.

Doesn't matter what.

That said, there are toxins in our daily lives that cause cancer and other diseases.

These toxins weren't existent or prevalent 100 years ago.

And don't forget about modern stress and pressures... really toxic.

Sue

[rainy]

88. you failed to read the entire article:

"When you take in more protein than your body needs, your body cannot store it, so the excess amino acids are converted to organic acids that would acidify your blood. But your blood never becomes acidic because as soon as the proteins are converted to organic acids, calcium leaves your bones to neutralize the acid and prevent any change in pH. Because of this, many scientists think that taking in too much protein may weaken bones to cause osteoporosis."

Thus: what the author was saying was do not take stuff to correct your balance as the body naturally balances itself if you are feeding it correctly or incorrectly. The paragraph above clearly states that calcium is robbed from your bones to correct alkaline balance. If the body was not taking in more protein than needed it would not have to go to the bones for the calcium thus keeping the bones healthy.

His point was not be suckered into buying stuff to make profits for fakes.

You shouldn't have to buy supplements if you are eating good healthy food.

[foo_bar]

141. his point was not to be suckered, period

re: "Acid/Alkaline Theory of Disease Is Nonsense"

If the body was not taking in more protein than needed it would not have to go to the bones for the calcium thus keeping the bones healthy.

The problem seems to be bone formation, not resorption:

But two findings were unexpected. First, bone resorption—in which calcium is taken away from bones via the bloodstream—was the same for omnivore women as for vegan women.

"The current model predicts increased bone resorption for people who consume large amounts of animal protein, so it was somewhat surprising that bone resorption was the same for both groups of our volunteers," Van Loan notes.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar03/osteo0303.htm

But I was mostly responding to "Heart disease: not possible for non meat eaters" and "Cancer cannot grow in a alkaline body". Calcium is very useful, yes. So is Vitamin C, despite it being a much-maligned acid (just channel Linus Pauling). Exercise can also go a long way in terms of metabolism and cardiovascular health.

[Ioo]

57. Your BODY is NEVER ACID.. Blood pH

The pH in the plasma is maintained within a narrow range of 7.35 to 7.45 (ALL ON THE ALC SIDE)

Only in severe life-threatening disease states does the pH fall below 7.2 or above 7.6. More dramatic variation is incompatible with life.

Your body maintains this PH using a concept called POTASSIUM CHLORINE SHIFT, the body uses these to get Oxg around the body, and also to regulate body Ph...

While I think that meat can be bad, I think that your post is very much not based in a lot of fact.

[knitter4democracy]

62. Thank you!

I couldn't remember what my hubby had told me about that process. I do know that when he has a patient with an acidic blood profile, he freaks out, as it means they're really, really sick.

[Enraged_Ape]

68. When did facts ever get in the way of anyone spouting nutrition advice...

on this board?

I, for one, would just like to read the duplicated, peer-reviewed studies that back up all the original poster's claims, but I know (as usual) it will be a cold day in hell before I ever see those.

[FlaGranny]

79. Thanks, I had been thinking the same thing, but

was too lazy to look up the range. :-)

[rainy]

95. read my above post: you could say the same about sugars

You could say the same about sugar. Does it matter how much you eat because your body always corrects the sugar balance. If it goes too high the body shoots insulin into the system to correct. Sometimes over correcting resulting in low-blood sugar. Once this happens the body would die without glucose in it so the body goes into panic and rushed adrenaline into the system to get sugar out of the liver. This cycle over and over again in the body eventually causes the adrenaline glands to wear out causing anxiety and glands that cannot handle stress. Once you stop eating sugar your glands will heal and you will not need PROZAC.

Another point, if the body wears out in the insulin making ability in the scenario above the person becomes diabetic.

[tyedyeto]

59. According to all the recent threads:

It's not a diet issue, it's smoking, especially 2nd hand smoke.

[fishnfla]

61. wrong,wrong,wrong

The cause of most human illnesses is germs, which developed from the domistication of animals. So live animals throughout history have been a greater threat to humans in that way.

Its all in the book: Guns, Germs and Steel

[rainy]

98. How come animals in the wild don't get sick from germs and

heart disease and cancer and arteriosclerosis? Only domestic animals get these degenerative diseases.

[Lindacooks]

102. Animals in the wild don't get sick from germs, in other words, they

can eat carrion, because they have built up a resistance to the bacteria. There are plenty of animals in the wild who get sick and die - it's the cycle of nature. And yes, they get heart disease and cancer and arteriosclerosis too. It's nonsense to say that only domestic animals get these degenerative diseases.

[fishnfla]

131. You are also neglecting the fact of genetics

everyday molecular biologists discover DNA sequences which are linked to certain diseases. This is why certain illnesses are passed on in families

you are also neglecting sexually transmitted diseases

How 'bout the plague? Transmission from the rat fleas.


None of this has anything at all to do with eating meat.

Really, rainy, you should know these things on your own.

[Nobody]

65. Non-meat eaters DO TOO get osteoporosis

To a vegan, milk IS a meat product and therefore won't touch it.

Moderation in all things. Too much of anything is bad for you.

By the way, raw meat has all kinds of microbes in it. Ever heard of trichinosis? This is why pork has to be cooked thoroughly.

[jim3775]

67. More self-righteous bullshit

It's nice to see these claims get a thorough debunking from my fellow DU'ers.

[Walt Starr]

69. Had a nice, juicy, bloody, medium rare piece of PRIME RIB last night

I think I'll eat some turkey tonight, and pork tomorrow.

I'm a meat eater. We evolved as meat eaters. As homonids consumed more meat, the additional protein allowed the brain to get larger as protein is the largest requirement for the brain.

Humans are meat eaters. All of the vegetarians I know are constantly sick.

[knitter4democracy]

86. I'm vegetarian because I'm sick.

Apparently, the dioxin in my environment growing up had something to do with my endometriosis developing the way it has. At least, not eating meat or dairy makes it so I can get out of bed and actually function.

On the other hand, I hope it was a good cut. I see so many cuts of prime rib that are so bad. Of course, we raised our own beef when I was a girl, so I was a bit spoiled. Enjoy your food, and I'm sure it'll be fine. :D

[shrike]

97. I grew up on a farm, too

Farm-raised pork, beef, lamb -- grown the old-fashioned way. Had no idea how the rest of the world lived until I went out on my own.

[calico1]

101. And this is how most of our grandparents and

great grandparents got their meat supplies. Even if they didn't have their own farm they would to to a local farm to get meat, eggs, milk, etc. There are a few local places in my area that raise livestock the way it used to be raised--grazing freely, eating grass, no hormones, etc. As soon as my freezer empties out that is where I am going to buy it from now on.

spelling

[PhilipShore]

70. Study Finds 95% of Non-Organic Poultry Contaminated with Feces ...

Organic Consumers Association
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 9, 2002

http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/poultryfeces121102.cfm

Minneapolis Study Finds 90% of Non-Organic Poultry Contaminated with
Feces & Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria

Study Finds 95% of Non-Organic
Poultry Contaminated with Feces
& Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria

Minneapolis - The first study to examine the presence of multiple
antibiotic-resistant bacteria in brand-name poultry products finds that
many Twin Cities consumers, along with their chicken and turkey, are
ingesting bacteria resistant to important human antibiotics like
Ciprofloxacin (Cipro), Synercid, and Tetracycline.

According to tests conducted by an independent laboratory for
Sierra Club and the Minneapolis-based Institute for Agriculture and Trade
Policy, 95% of the whole chickens tested were contaminated with
Campylobacter bacteria - 62% of the Campylobacter tested were resistant to
1 or multiple antibiotics. Salmonella bacteria were found in 45% of ground
turkey purchased, and 62% of Salmonella from turkey tested for resistance
was found resistant to 1 or more antibiotics. Salmonella and Campylobacter
bacteria are the two most common bacterial causes of U.S. foodborne
illness, and are responsible for over 3.3 million infections and more than
650 deaths every year.

[Crunchy Frog]

91. That's why it needs to be cooked well.

Fruits and veggies can also be contaminated with microbes. That's why they recommend peeling, or at least washing very thoroughly, and pasteurization of juices. I remember a major e coli outbreak from some unpasteurized organic apple juice a few years ago.

[leftofthedial]

73. and so is the absence of meat eating

[Crunchy Frog]

80. I'm getting tired of these threads that attack other people's

eating habits. I also get tired of people who continue flame wars from other threads. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5563567

My position is that people should eat in whatever way they choose to, and according to what they feel is best, or most enjoyable for them, and should piss off about other people's eating habits.

I'm not saying not to criticize the meat industry, both for its cruelty and its adverse environmental impact, but that's a separate issue.

As far as your claims about acidity and alkalinity, how they are affected by meat eating, and how that impacts one's ability to develop disease, well, I'd like to see some reputable, peer reviewed, scientific literature to back that up.

As for your last point, I don't think it's possible to eat meat where the cells are actually alive. Cell death happens pretty quickly after actual death, and apes may spend hours working on a single carcass, or even scavenge on things that have been dead for awhile, as our ancestors are speculated to have done. At any rate, once a cell gets into the HCL of your stomach, it's toast anyway. "Live" or dead, it still gets broken down into its constituent parts once it's in your gut. As somebody else pointed out, eating raw meat can be very dangerous, because the "live" cells you're eating will mostly be live bacteria and parasites.

Remember, anybody can make any sort of claim at all on the internet, and in health related books. It's a good idea to look for corroborating evidence before you swallow it hook line and sinker.

I would like to hear from you what you consider to be the difference between a cell that was dead when you ate it, versus a cell that became dead once it hit the HCL in your stomach. What are the differences in nutrients and why, and why does one affect your body's acidity while the other doesn't? If I could see a coherent answer to those questions, I might take what you're saying a little more seriously.

[rainy]

106. Here are facts about the HCL and your stomach that you asked for:

Enzymes: The Difference Between Raw and Cooked Foods

by: Emily Kane ND

ENZYMES: The tiny and enormous difference between raw and cooked foods

Virtually all chronic degenerative diseases are caused or aggravated by digestive problems. After the most extensive study on nutrition ever undertaken by the government, the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs concluded in its 1978 report entitled "Diet and Killer Diseases," that the average American diet is responsible for the development of chronic degenerative diseases such as heart disease, atherosclerosis, cancer, diabetes, stroke, etc. Many of the most common health complaints revolve around a 20-foot, mucus-lined tube that directly interfaces us with our environment. This is no mystery: This is the gastro-intestinal tract, affectionately abbreviated "GI." The job of the GI is to alchemically transmute the food we eat into our flesh, blood, actions, thoughts and feelings... with a little help from our friends the salivary glands, the pancreas, the liver, and most importantly RAW FOOD -- all of which provide (now we're getting to the point) ENZYMES.

Enzymes are delicate dynamos. Delicate because they are destroyed by temperatures over 118 degrees (some by as little as 105 degrees), which means that they may not survive even light steaming. Dynamos because they are powerful biochemical catalysts; they speed burning or building reactions in the body according to need. They are specialized proteins, often with long complicated names ending in -ase.

The three primary digestive enzymes are protease, lipase and amylase which digest, respectively, protein, fat (lipids), and carbohydrates (which includes sugars). Amylase comes from the salivary glands: carbohydrates start digesting right in our mouth. Have you ever chewed a piece of bread or potato for an extra moment before swallowing, and tasted how sweet it is? (It is a good idea to chew our foods thoroughly; literally making juice in our mouths before swallowing.) Lipase is synthesized principally in the liver and protease comes from the pancreas.

Although the enzyme-producing organs continue to function over the entire course of a healthy life, they eventually wear down, especially with the "standard American diet" (which, in the naturopathic community, we call SAD.) Dr. Francis M. Pottenger's nutritional studies have shown that a regular diet of cooked or canned foods causes the development of chronic degenerative diseases and premature mortality. Professor Jackson of the Dept. of Anatomy,
University of Minnesota, has shown that rats fed for 135 days on an 80 percent cooked food diet resulted in an increase pancreatic weight of 20 to 30 percent. What this means is that the pancreas is forced to work harder with a cooked food diet. "Although the body can manufacture enzymes, the more you use your enzyme potential, the faster it is going to run out..." wrote Dr. Edward Howell, who pioneered research in the benefits of food enzymes. A youth of 18 may produce amylase levels 30 times greater than those of an 85 year old person.

Enzymes are what make seeds sprout. Sprouts are, in fact, one of the richest sources of enzymes. Other excellent sources are papaya, pineapple and the aspergillus plant. Science cannot duplicate enzymes, because they are the stuff of life itself. Only raw food has functional "live" enzymes. Therefore the liver, pancreas, stomach and intestines must come to the rescue and furnish the requisite digestive enzymes to the individual nourished solely on a cooked food diet.

This extra activity can be detrimental to health and longevity because it continually taxes the reserve energy of our organs. Furthermore, cooked food passes through the digestive tract more slowly than raw food, tends to ferment, and throws poisons back into the body. Colon cancer is second only to lung cancer as a killer in America and is related, in various ways, to eating enzyme-deficient cooked food. Prolonged intestinal toxemia may manifest the following symptoms: Fatigue, nervousness, gasto-intestinal discomfort, recurrent infections, skin eruptions, hormonal disturbances, headaches, arthritis, sciatica, low back pain, allergies, asthma, eye, ear, nose and throat disorders, cardiac irregularities, pathological changes in the breasts, and so forth. All of these conditions have been shown to respond to therapy directed to correcting the bowel toxemia. Of course, it is important to have fiber in the diet to scrub the colon walls clean, but even more important are the enzymes which will allow proper digestion and assimilation of vital nutrients. Cooked food often passes into the bloodstream as unsplit molecules that are deposited, as waste, in various parts of the body. If it is a fat molecule we know it as cholesterol plaque; if calcium, arthritis; if sugar, diabetes. White blood cell count rises dramatically after ingesting a meal of canned or cooked foods ("digestive leukocytosis"). Elevated WBCs are correlated to bacterial infection, inflammation and depressed immunity. Raw foods do not produce this reaction. All raw foods contain exactly the right enzymes required to split every last molecule into the basic building blocks of metabolism: Amino acids (from protein), glucose (from complex carbohydrates) and essential fatty acids (from unsaturated vegetable fats).

You are what you ate: Eat living foods (at least once daily!).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Emily Kane practices in Juneau, Alaska and can be reached at: [phone]

[madeline_con]

81. This certainly became a controversial topic.

Having heard chimps are vegens, and then watching the shows where groups of chimps hunt and eat baboons occasionally, I've decided perhaps lowering the amount of meat in one's diet might be key.

Americans really do gorge on it in comparison to most people in the world.

I've read that the Japanese a formerly notorious group for longevity and good health, have been becoming less and less healthy as the younger generations have adopted the western model of meat consumption.

edited 4 speeling

[calico1]

89. Its not so much the adoption of meat

consumption as it is the adoption of the general American diet of large portions, fast food, processed foods, combined with sedentary lifestyle.

[madeline_con]

100. Agreed.

The cat pic helps illustrate that the meat eating, napping style leads to ruin. THEY don't look overweight. :)

[calico1]

113. Cats cannot survive on a vegetarian

diet. They are carnivores.

[madeline_con]

124. I know that....

which really makes me wonder about vegan cat food for those who can't fathom the idea of ANY meat being in their homes. :shrug:

[calico1]

133. Oh, ok.

Wasn't sure what you meant! That picture is a little over a year old now. And those two are a little slimmer now that I have cut out some treats I used to get them which had a lot of cereal ingredients in them. But they do like to nap! :D

[evirus]

92. well when in abundence

we tend to use food for comfort...... i would always grab a bag of chips or something to eat when im board just because i need something to do(suprisingly im not overweight.... actualy im somewhat skinny) and when you like eating meat your more likly to get a burger or something when your not truly hungry, but the food is just laying out.... calling to you

[madeline_con]

108. Yes, boredom eating is easy to do.

I stopped bringing so much junk food and sweets into the house recently, to see if we'd drop a few pounds. It worked.

With Christmas coming, I expect we'll be eating the cookies, gravy, etc. But at least I know I can steer us toward something a little more healthy come New Year's.

Hubby and I talked about more rice and beans, tofu, etc. To my surprise, he agreed we could do with less meat. Now, if I can just get him to quit smoking!

[noamnety]

83. Vegetarians have a lower life expectancy

"Myth: Vegetarianism is healthy.

Truth: The annual all-cause death rate of vegetarian men is slightly more than that of non-vegetarian men (.93% vs .89%); the annual death rate of vegetarian women is significantly more than that of non-vegetarian women (.86% vs .54%) (Am J Clin Nutr 1982 36:873) "

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtnutrition.html
And there are of course studies that show the exact opposite to be true.


It's hard to get a good study that reflects your own eating habits if you are a meat eater that doesn't do the fast food thing at all. In a comparison of the typical meat eater in America - a fast food junkie who eats mainly processed foods vs. a vegetarian, one would expect the vegetarian to fare better in terms of heart disease. But where is the comparison between a vegetarian and someone who eats lean meat without added chemicals and prepares their own food with wholesome ingrediants? Telling me that a vegetarian (who doesn't smoke, drink alcohol, or drink coffee) has less heart disease than someone who eats big macs and fries cooked in animal fat doesn't tell me anything useful. Since the main studies seem to be of the seventh day adventists (who don't smoke, drink, etc), the study would appear to be unscientific unless they compared them to meat eaters who also didn't smoke, drink, etc.

Aside from that, your claim that vegetarians do not get osteoporosis is simply untrue.

"But one paper suggested that low-protein diets (associated with vegetarians) reduce calcium absorption and may have a negative impact on skeletal health. And although several studies on Seventh-Day Adventists (typically vegetarians) indicated that they have a longer-than-average life expectancy, other studies found that prostate-cancer rates were high in Adventists, and one study found that Adventists were more likely to suffer hip fractures.

(snip)

infants breast-fed by vegans have lower levels of vitamin B12 and DHA (an omega-3 fatty acid), important to vision and growth.

(snip)

Middle-aged to elderly adults can also develop deficiencies in a vegetarian diet (as they can, of course, with a poor diet that includes meat). Deficiencies in vitamins D and B12 and in iodine, which can lead to goiter, are common. "

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story3.html

more on osteoporosis: http://vegweb.com/articles/39.shtml


You also may find this article interesting: "Myth #5: Meat-eating causes osteoporosis, kidney disease, heart disease, and cancer." http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/16/vegetarianism_myths_05.htm

[salvorhardin]

144. Oh great

Let's argue quack arguments with -- more quacks!

Good ol' Weston Price, the holistic denistry quack who believed that sugar causes not only tooth decay but physical, mental, moral, and social decay as well.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

Lately the "Foundation" that carries his quackery into the 21st century has been promoting the "raw milk" craze.

[evirus]

84. say what you will

but you cant deny the fact that we have been eating meat all this time and STILL have an extremly high life time now then we ever did due to modern medicine.

sure people call me radicle for being anti-smoking but you can sit on your high throne and claim that meat shouldnt be eaten and removed from our economy and just get away with it? i dont think so

[enki23]

87. wow, what a load of crap

.

[PhilipShore]

96. Dr. Joe Cummins: Transgenic Meat Scandal

Transgenic Meat Scandal
By Dr. Joe Cummins
E-mail: [e-mail]

http://mercola.com/2003/feb/26/transgenic_meat.htm

The inability of the U.S. regulatory agencies to prevent contamination of the food chain with potentially poisonous transgenic plant and animal products has reached scandalous heights.

Now, the U.S. Food and Drug administration (FDA) reports that the University of Illinois has marketed 386 pigs that were the progeny of transgenic animals. The FDA report indicates that the marketed animals had not been adequately tested for the presence of transgenes, and fails to give details of the transgenes in the experimental animals. It states its belief that the incident was an isolated one, and that the transgenic products posed no health risks.

The FDA report is not entirely forthcoming or truthful; indeed, it reads more like a public relations text on behalf of the corporations than a serious public information document.

[Dirty Hippie]

103. My $.02

45 year old, cholesterol 205, weight 270.

Decided to go Vegan for health reasons, 14 months later:

Weight 190, cholesterol in the 130s.

The only other thing I did was start exercising.

To each his or her own, but I'm vegan for life.

On edit: Also acid reflux disease - gone.

[BeFree]

110. Interesting thread

Controversial to say the least.

Here's what I heard, and have experienced: A regular red-meat eater, when dead and opened up for a complete inspection, is found to have somewhere around 7 pounds of undigested meat in it's intestines.

I lost about 7 pounds of weight off me bod when I quit eating red meat.

[Macman44]

116. Riiiiiight

And do you know what Euell Gibbons, the renowned naturist who liked surviving off of the land, and eating naturally, died from?

Stomach cancer!!

[Angry Girl]

122. Meat not the only acid-forming stuff we eat. Sugar & high carbs

For example, rice on its own is acid forming, because on it's own it's mostly carbs (even brown rice). Proper eating requires that veggies be eaten with grains to balance the acidity, since they are alkaline, in general.

Raw is not everything it's cracked up to be. You'll notice that the Chinese, whose medical experience is thousands of years old, don't eat raw foods much. In China, you'll be hard-presed to find a salad bar, for example. This is because they believe that even though some vitamins and nutrients are lost through cooking, the body will digest cooked foods more readily.

Eating lots of cold, raw things can harm your body by causing it to become too yin, encouraging damp. and other chronic conditions.

Humans are omnivores. Everything in moderation is the unfortunate (and boring) answer to most problems.

[SidDithers]

126. These posts are always good for a laugh...

because they're so divorced from reality.

"Cancer: Cancer cannot grow in a alkaline body. Meat is acid forming in the body. Meat robs the bones of calcium which is the great neutralizer. Calcium reduces the acid in the body. When you eat meat your body has to give up it's stored calcium to balance to alkaline. This is why meat eaters get osteoporosis and non meat eaters do not."

Got any basic science to back that up?

Sid

Edit: And perhaps you should take the time to learn how to post links, other posters have figured it out. Learning - it's one of the things that the meat in our ancestors diets has allowed us to do.

[Neil Lisst]

129. veggies do make you one thing

flatulent

beans, beans, good for the heart

[mtnsnake]

140. I think that's a myth. Since I gave up red meat & added more veggies

and beans, I haven't noticed any increase in flatulence whatsoever. If anything, the number of my daily farts has decreased.

[Spinzonner]

145. How come nobody makes a meter for that

[ShadesOfGrey]

169. Perhaps you could learn how to ignore?

[Ladyhawk]

132. once and for all: we're all gonna die!

Just sayin'. :shrug:

[PhilipShore]

134. A conspiracy theory and non-organic supermarkets in New England and Repugs

A conspiracy theory and non-organic supermarkets in New England

I actually-believe it or not--inherited an interest in a supermarket chain, that had stores from the unaudited accounting, in at least-- Connecticut and Rhode Island dating back to around 1910.

And now--I have not even filed-- a lawsuit against one of the parties-- that also had an interest in the estate, and he hired a a Republican Party PR law firm in Miami (see below).

To say the least-- if I had actually had my voice in all this--I would have demanded that the supermarkets be organic, and I usually get my way-- in all legal fights--even though I am not a lawyer.

_________________________________________



I am not a lawyer, but I sued and got a favorable ruling--in writing-- from the Federal Appeals court for the Eleventh Circuit. Most of the parties-- I later learned-- and their lawyers are very well connected Republicans, one of whom is even the lawyer for one of the largest campaign contributors for the Republicans in Miami.

I did not even file a lawsuit--but when the PI investigated the parties the court said wronged me--those parties then hired a law firm--Akerman Senterfitt--whom recently hired Two major Bush Cheney '04 Advisors.

http://www.akerman.com/documents/res.asp?id=204


And according to a law.com article below, Abramoff, has ties to a Akerman Senterfitt's law partner whom was a former Bush Cabinet member.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1078196807144

Abramoff is listed on the Internet site for President Bush's re-election campaign as a "pioneer," meaning he has raised more than $100,000. He also has been active on behalf of Mel Martinez, a former Bush Cabinet member and partner at Akerman Senterfitt in Orlando who is running for the GOP nomination for Bob Graham's U.S. Senate seat.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0811-08.htm


The recent ruling for my civil suit says:

Plaintiff (myself) seeks to attack the stipulation agreement which he believes rewrote Party A’s Will to deprive him of any funds that Party A intended to leave him and which he argues is void due to the failings of Party B. We need not decide whether we are barred from reviewing the agreement by the Rooker-Feldman doctrine or the statute of limitations. It is sufficient to note that, to the extent Plaintiff was wronged Party C is not the offending party. The agreement was between Party D and Party E (It was also signed by Party B on behalf of Plaintiff and Parties F,G, H) Party C merely signed a form that acknowledged that it was being appointed….for the reformed Will… and agreed to follow the directions given in the agreement.. Party C is not the one that negotiated the agreement nor did it have any obligation to plaintiff...It is not Party C who has harmed Plaintiff...

______________________________

Can anyone recommend a Private Investigator for me in Miami?

The last PI I hired screwed up.


See NOTES ON DEEP THROAT, Wednesday, June 01, 2005

As soon as FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover died on May 2, 1972, a 27-year-old Justice Department employee named Craig C. Donsanto signed Petersen's name to a "courtesy" letter telling Democratic Congressman Claude Pepper of Miami that all hell was about to break loose. Pepper learned that Democratic National Committee offices based at the Watergate ostensibly were in cahoots with a California computing firm anxious to corner the market on the new computer voting industry and that Dade County had been a guinea pig.

Promising him assistance in his career, Pepper prevailed on Donsanto to stamp a "National Security" embargo on the FBI file. That file is still classified. But two Miami reporters, Kenneth and James Collier, managed to obtain copies of it - at about the time Bob Graham was elected Governor of Florida in 1978.

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/medialog/2005/06/notes-on-deep-throat.asp
___________________

Was the law firm in Miami (Williams, Salomon, Kanner, Damian) connected, in any way, to Claude Pepper another prominent Real Estate person?

What are they hiding? When, where, how, whom why, did they hide facts?

[johnnie]

142. I agree with you but

I eat meat anyway. I know it is bad for me and it's not only the meat itself it is all of the chemicals in it. I also smoke and drink, so I guess I am killing myself slowly but then again everyone is killing themselves slowly, just at different rates.

The problem with these sort of threads is that they won't change people's minds. It's cool to post this sort of information, but it opens up the possibility for some heavy flaming.

It is much easier to go with the moral issues concerning eating meat than it is with the health aspect of it. If I remember correctly, there are studies to show that we here in the United States have a much higher rate of cancer than any other country and also are one of the top consumers of meat.

I'm not putting you down for posting this, but it can be frustrating for a poster to argue this point. The way I look at it is, it's other people's lives and if they want to kill themselves, that's none of my business. Just like when people start threads about smoking and trying to tell me that I am a waste of human flesh because I smoke. Why they give a shit is beyond me, but people like to feel superior.

I know that meat is rotting in my body right now, but I still like to eat it.

[spundit]

148. this whole culture

of being terrified of food gets a little tiresome. You can become a vegetarian, a teetotaller and quit smoking - you might live to be a hundred, but you won't have as much fun as I do.

[johnnie]

150. I agree

The thing that bugs me is the holier than thou attitude concerning what I choose to eat, drink, smoke or screw. I say eat whatever the hell you want.

[spundit]

151. I'll tell you

what winds me up. Here in the UK we're planning to come into line with the US on banning smoking in bars. I don't know what I'll do on a Saturday night, short of standing outside sucking on my stick of death.

[johnnie]

153. That one bugs me too

I can see banning smoking in any other building, but they should at least let the bar owners choose if they want smoking or non-smoking in their place.

Of course this is another topic that starts a pretty big uproar here.

[Retired AF Dem]

154. Stick of death?

I like coffin nails better. :)

[Retired AF Dem]

149. Living

is the number one cause of death. An avg human lifespan wouldn't even tick the geological clocks second hand once. Enjoy your life, eat what you want, don't matter none in the end.

[spundit]

152. Amen

I'm eating steak and chips right now, and I have a big bottle of Coke to wash it down with. Lettuce is for wimps.

[sabate]

174. Finally, the true voice of reason

Whether or not one is a vegetarian, one still dies. No vegetarian has ever become immortal.

Eat what you want so long as it doesn't make you feel bad.

Stop smoking, cut down on meat consumption, exercise, stop drinking....what does it gain you? 3-5 more years. Hardly worth the effort.

A good doctor who knows your family history and has done a physical on you can predict your life span, regardless of whatever you do that's good or bad for you.

[organik]

155. funny thing about these carniore vs vegetarian arguments...

ultimately it doesn't matter who wins the argument, because the vegans have the last laugh. I've been vegan for 10 years, vegetarian 5 before that, and going vegan I feel is the best decision I ever made, for a lot of reasons. When we all reach our elder years and the typical american meat eaters are fat and riddled with disease (so many, many diseases are linked with consumption of animal products), and the vegans are slim and energetic, then we can argue.

I also find it humorous that people defend meat eating when our bodys are obviously designed to eat plant material primarily (some would say exclusively). From the shape of our teeth, the enzymes in our saliva, to the length of our intestinal tract, it's obvious we are primarily herbivores. I know technicaly we are omnivores because we CAN eat meat, that doesn't mean we SHOULD eat meat.

Dogs are true omnivores (not carnivores, that's why they can thrive on vegan diets - my dog is vegan), and no amount of dietary cholesterol will raise their blood cholesterol - I have heard this is true of all TRUE omnivores. In humans however, dietary cholesterol DOES raise our blood cholesterol. Think about it...

Vegan Links.org

Check out the books on that site if you're interested in more info. I highly recommend T. Colin Campbell's "The China Study : The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-Term Health"

[yurbud]

157. You make a compelling argument. Now I must eat you.

[spundit]

158. You may be right

but I just love meat too much to listen :)

[sabate]

168. Eat what humans have evolved to eat --- Paleolithic Diet

There are races of people who are all slim, who are stronger and faster than us. They all have straight teeth and perfect eyesight. Arthritis, diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, stroke, depression, schizophrenia and cancer are absolute rarities for them. These people are the last 84 tribes of hunter-gatherers in the world. They share a secret that is over 2 million years old. Their secret is their diet- a diet that has changed little from that of the first humans 2 million years ago, and their predecessors up to 7 million years ago. Theirs is the diet that man evolved on, the diet that is coded for in our genes. It has some major differences to the diet of "civilization". You are in for a few big surprises.

The diet is usually referred to as the "Paleolithic Diet" referring to the Paleolithic or Stone Age era. It is also referred to as the "Stone Age Diet", "Cave Man Diet" or the "Hunter-Gatherer Diet".

The essentials of the Paleolithic Diet are:

Eat none of the following:

· Grains- including bread, pasta, noodles

· Beans- including string beans, kidney beans, lentils, peanuts, snow-peas and peas

· Potatoes

· Dairy products

· Sugar

· Salt

Eat the following:

· Meat, chicken and fish

· Eggs

· Fruit

· Vegetables (especially root vegetables, but definitely not including potatoes or sweet potatoes)

· Nuts, eg. walnuts, brazil nuts, macadamia, almond. Do not eat peanuts (a bean) or cashews (a family of their own)

· Berries- strawberries, blueberries, raspberries etc.

Try to increase your intake of:

· Root vegetables- carrots, turnips, parsnips, rutabagas

· Organ meats- liver and kidneys

[organik]

170. Sound like a good idea, except -

The human population of the earth it too large to eat like this, there are simply too many of us to eat meat!

You should realize that meat should probably not be at the top of the list, it's more likely at the bottom of that list.

[Clara T]

159. Simply Not True- In Fact Very False

Most human illness is caused from hunger and war. Almost all hunger is caused by poverty.

The entire meat eating vegetarian debate is framed wrongly. The more important question is how much energy did it take to feed population X and is that sustainable. By and large it takes MUCH less energy to feed a population well on a diet comprised primarily of vegetables, grains and fruits with bits of meat involved at certain times of the year. That is also the healthiest diet.

Now of course it matters how you get the food to your table and virtually ALL vegetarian diets are comprised of foods that were shipped from many thousand miles away.

Other variables are body types and climate.

Pollution causes WAY more illness than meat eating.

Your blanket statement is wrong.

Know your food. Eat local. Eat small amounts several times a day. Do not eat soy. Do not eat industrial meat.

[organik]

164. i agree, mostly

you make very good points, but to say "virtually ALL vegetarian diets are comprised of foods shipped many thousands of mile away" is totally untrue, I can purchase the vast majority of my diet at my local farmers market, grown locally. Do not eat soy makes no sense, not eating tofu maybe, as it's a processed food, but soy is a whole food. Also, it doesn't matter if meat is industrial or not, industrial is worse, but all meat has too much fat, cholesterol, and protein, and not enough fiber.

[Guy Fawkes]

160. Most things will kill you sooner or later.

Let them eat meat.

[Err]

163. Give me meat or give me death!

The very words I live by.

[mtnsnake]

167. Give me pizza or give me death!!

:9

[organik]

166. Who cares about health, environmentalism is the reason!

Screw all this health talk, enjoy your life and do what you want. Hypocrtical as some might see this, I'm a vegan who drinks lots of coffee, lots of alcohol, and smokes cigarettes! It's not so much about my health as it is about unnecessarily killing animals, and the pollution that animal agriculture causes. Some pig farms generate as much waste as entire cities! It is simply a fact that the earth can not provide enough food for everyone on the planet to eat a "western" diet. That's why this organically raised meat, free range, blah blah...it's rubbish. It still takes way too much grain and water and land to raise livestock, when we could just eat the grain directly. Takes 10x the resources to produce a pound of beef vs. a pound of wheat. I could go on and on, but i'm past my preachy phase, used to be "militant" ish vegan, but decided I'm vegan for ME, not anyone else. Do what you want, it's your body - but please remember it's OUR planet.

[NNadir]

172. As a vegetarian, let me say that this claim is purely absurd.

One does not improve one's position by demonstrating complete ignorance of science.

Here are some elements of science that would improve this (extraordinary) claim: Some references from competent authorities. Some data. Some comparison with alternate claims. Analysis. An explanation as to why this conclusion as drawn should be elevated above competing explanations. Some clue that in making this post you understand some basic chemistry, with emphasis on biochemistry. Anyone who has had a basic entry level course in biochemistry should be pretty much able to dismiss this thread out of hand.

I am more and more disturbed by general scientific illiteracy and the facile way such illiteracy is thrown around.

[sierrajim]

176. I have to call BULLSHIT

I like most (at least I hope so) have my eyes in the front of my head we humans like bears are CARNIVORES first and omnivores second.

[proud patriot]

178. I'm locking this thread

as a continuation of another flamewar