What is With all of these "Save Tookie People/Posts"

[Parche]

I find it hard to understand why people would want to save him tonight?
He has murdered 4people, if not more
He founded one of the most violent gangs in American History
He deserves what he gets
He didnt care about his murdered victims
Why should anyone care about him
This should have been done years ago
He will not be a martyr, he will still be a murderer.

What about his victims?

[BlueAwards]

1. Not everyone believes in the Death Penalty

Also, many of those who do feel that he can contribute much more than he already has, unlike other people on Death Row.

[rsmith6621]

7. Wouldnt 24 Years Be Considered.......

Cruel and unusual punishment........I think the law on the death penalty should be limited to 15 years if you havent benn hung by then your sentence be commuted......The long appeals process is part of the reason doesnt work.....


Although.....WATCH SADDA....if he is found guilty he will be in the ground within 30 days....

Frankly I think Tookie has proven he has changed and deserve to be commuted to life.

[Warpy]

13. The long appeals process is necessary

because it keeps us from killing even more innocent people than we already do.

New evidence proving innocence takes an average of eight years to surface. Those "just take 'em out and hang 'em" folks would be spilling an awful lot of innocent blood. I don't know how such people can look at themselves in a mirror.

Personally, I find Williams's changed character (or lack of it) irrelevant. The death penalty is just plain wrong and should be abolished.

[FreedomAngel82]

69. Exactly

It's legal murder. You're no better than those who undoubtably killed someone else. It makes you like them supporting it in my opinion. In my town it was reported this guy was put in jail twenty years ago for rape and he was just let out. Why? The girl who accused him lied about it and it was now known. So what if he was executed? How would that make you feel?

[MercutioATC]

18. Changed? He still won't admit to the killings and shows no remorse.

It's a judgement call, I suppose, but if he doesn't show remorse, I can't believe he's changed enough.

[FreedomAngel82]

71. So maybe he didn't do it

That's not your call since you don't know either do you?

[Reciprocity]

16. True....

but what about the contributions of the of the four people he murdered? They never got the chance. He took that away from them.

[BlueAwards]

37. Moot point...

It still has nothing to do with peoples beliefs on the death penalty and doesn't mean value can't be made out of his life.

[Reciprocity]

44. So his victims don't count b/c they are dead?

[northzax]

52. honestly, yes.

the civil and human rights of the living always supercede those of the dead. sad, but true.

And there is no way, by the way, to ask them what their opinion would be, what if they wouldn't want him killed? Since there is no way to know, we default to yes? in what world does that make sense?

[Reciprocity]

53. If I were murdered yes.

I would want the person who took my life, to pay with their's.

[northzax]

54. good to know

the good part of our system is that your feelings are completely irrelevant. That's why the statue of Lady Justice outside the court is wearing a blindfold, Justice does not discriminate, theoretically, between different classes of victims. If you think everyone who commits a murder should be executed, then say so, but don't claim that you are somehow special and your murderer is more deserving of death, because that is an emotional response, not a logical one.

[Reciprocity]

57. WTF are you talking about?

[northzax]

59. do all murderers deserve the death penalty, no exception

or does the one that kills you, god forbid, get special treatment? that's my question, pretty clear I thought.

[Reciprocity]

64. The subject was Tookie getting released b/c of his contributions...

to society. Read post #1. My point was that the victims never got that choice.

[Parche]

49. tookie

What makes him so special, just because he has written a few books.
Why didnt he issue statements for all gang members to disband?
They are still out there doing crime

[geomon666]

2. I don't like the guy.

I think he's a murdering dirtbag. But I don't think my government should murder him in return.

[Midlodemocrat]

4. >

:applause:

[Stand and Fight]

8. Thanks.

I don't have the energy.

[Burma Jones]

3. What is it with people with over 1000 posts

still not getting that you can be against Capital Punishment and detest Tookie Williams? Just because a person is against the Death penalty doesn't make him/her a murderer coddling patsy...

And I'm for the DP......

[Parche]

6. DP

So if you are for the DP, are you for Tookie getting what he deserves?

[Burma Jones]

10. Me, personally, sure

but I don't feel like crowing about it or giving opponents a hard time over it....that's all.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

11. what is it with people with 1000+ posts buying RW bullshit

like that the DP deters

or that people should "get what they deserve" as if desert can be truly assessed and assigned (for fuck's sake this was ultimately decided by ARNOLD FREAKING SCHWARZENEGGER -- consider his position in California politics today)

or that we shouldn't give a damn about the people who are executed without having access to DNA evidence

or that prisons would be overcrowded if we gave life imprisonment instead of DP

or that the state can commit murder while simultaneously bombarding us with the opposing (i.e. Christian) moral framework



I guess it's just me but I always thought a state that it's impossible for a state to sponsor death and acknowledge a doctrine of universal human rights. It's sort of a paradox.

[MercutioATC]

20. Amazing, isn't it? People with 1000+ posts have OPINIONS!!!!!

Just because you don't agree with their views doesn't mean they're "buying RW bullshit".

[Lautremont]

23. Unless the views themselves qualify as RW bullshit.

[MercutioATC]

24. Well, that's your opinion...others differ.

Funny, isn't it? Opinions seem to work that way.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

26. i've heard that before

TruthBeliever says, "Natural selection."
Liar says, "That's your opinion."



Get it? Say shit like you've just said here and pretty soon you're shaking hands with "They hate us for our freedom."

[MercutioATC]

31. I've read some well-stated posts here explaining a pro-DP position.

I believe they're valid. My personal issue with the DP isn't moral, it's practical. It's very hard to bring somebody back to life if you make a mistake. Other than that, I feel that there are choices a person can make that should cause them to cease to be considered a part of humanity.

That's not a right-wing talking point, it's my considered opinion.

[Parche]

35. DP

I dont think it is a "DP does not deter" point.

It is a justice point

No one should murder another person, that is against all of the laws of man, and if you do that
you should not have any rights of your own, and in turn your life should be forfeited.

[MercutioATC]

36. I agree. And forget the "execution is murder" bullshit, too.

Execution is no more murder than imprisonment is kidnapping.

[RC]

45. So you are saying execute our returning troops?

A lot of innocents are dying over there just for being Iraqi.

[Parche]

48. message

Did they murder anyone?

[MercutioATC]

55. No....that's my whole point.

All killing isn't "murder".

[RC]

62. Tell that to the families shot up at the check points by trigger happy

marines.

[MercutioATC]

63. My fault. I think we're posting to each other in error.

(I inadvertantly responded to your response to Parche).

[Sparkman]

66. How many wrongful execution cases have you studied? none mentioned!

Which shows you're not a student of this subject, and your opinion is based on flimsy evidence, like many DP case convictions. HUNDREDs of innocent suspects have been exonerated and many AFTER SUFFERING THE SENTENCE OF EXECUTION. That's why the DP is wrong, first and foremost.

[Lautremont]

42. Are there subsequent choices a person can make that can

cause them to be reconsidered a part of humanity?

[MercutioATC]

56. I don't know.

Like I said, I'm undecided on the issue. There a few of the specifics that I'm torn on.

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

25. no.

it crosses the line when people hold onto their opinions in no small part based on a campaign of misinformation, as is the case with the DP.

it's not about opinions. like everything else the RW has committed against our society, it's about truth vs. lies.

[MercutioATC]

32. Give people some credit.

People can be well-informed and still disagree with you.

I'm undecided on the issue. Post #31 explains why. You may not agree with my opinions, but I'm nit a victim of any "campaign of misinformation".

[WilliamPitt]

5. Tookie does not matter

1. The state should not kill people.

2. Death is a cop-out.

#2 is more important from your perspective, I think. If his crimes were so bad, what is worse? A long, slow, agonizing stretch of time in a cage? Or a painless exit from this world, thus keeping him from living with his punishment?

If you want him punished, keeping him alive is a far worse sentence.

Oh, PS, the state should not kill people.

[Parche]

15. Points

Mr Pitt, You do have many good points

"The State should not kill people" Should be "The State should not have to execute anyone", alas
people should not kill other people, when they learn that, then number 2 will never be needed again.

"Death is a cop-out" Peer pressure is a cop-out just like gangs

What is worse If he happens to escape from prison, like people have in the past, will they kill again?



And again, what about the 4victims and their families in this case, no one ever talks of them

[WilliamPitt]

19. Answers

I stated this in an earlier thread:

If someone murdered my mother in cold blood, was tried and convicted, shuffled through the appeals process and ultimately slated for the spike, I would be outside the jail protesting. I would stand before the court and beg for his life to be spared.

Why? Because otherwise he'd be dead and would not have to face 50 years in a cage for what he did. He would not suffer the consequences of his actions in a living, breathing, sentient way. He would be getting off easy. Also, he would not be given an opportunity to repent. He would not be given an opportunity to spend 50 years in a cage praying for forgiveness, should that repentance come along.

As for the state killing people, I give you the Word: "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

Vengeance is not yours, not mine, not Arnold's, not a bunch of self-righteous Jesus-shouters who think they are on armchair-to-armchair relations with God. Only God gets to kill people. Some here do not believe in God, and that is totally fine, but I do. This is my own opinion.

I'm sorry Tookie Williams made so many bad choices in his life. I'm sorry our society deems it proper to slay him. I'm sorry for the families of his victims, who will be denied the knowledge that he is in a cage for the rest of his life, left to write within himself for what he has done.

But Mr. Williams, or any other example you put forth, won't change my mind. The state should not kill people, and death is a cop-out. That's it. That's all.

You said:

"The State should not kill people" Should be "The State should not have to execute anyone", alas
people should not kill other people, when they learn that, then number 2 will never be needed again.

I reply with the words of martin Luther King Jr.:

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction.... The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.

If you believe these words to be true, then you must place state executions in the category of things that spread violence. Yes, people should not kill. They always have. Until killing is no longer considered an answer, especially from the state, the killing will go on. If the state is justified in committing murder, why not me?

[TahitiNut]

21. The motives of the state in executions is identical to that of a murderer!

One can barely see daylight between the ravings a murderer and the ravings of those seeking revenge or (in god-like presumption) "what he deserves"! If anything, the state-administered death penalty is more cowardly and reprehensible.

[Parche]

28. Respect

I respect your words Mr Pitt, you are a good man.

I myself do believe in "God" or there of, "Creator"

I do not believe in Religion of any sort

I do not believe in violence but justice

[Silverhair]

29. Tookie definately won't escape after tonight.

Barring a last minute stay, of course. My point is that murderers have escaped before and killed again. A couple of fast examples would be Willy Horton & Ted Bundy.

And others have been set free due to political pressure, only to kill again. Remember the Norman Mailer example?

[KFC]

43. I find it interesting that just about all DP convicts want to live

Sure, there are a few that want to die, but not many. Apparently the shitty life behind bars is actually worth living. That said, I oppose the death penalty. They make mistakes.

[Stand and Fight]

9. It's not about Stanley Williams.

He was/is a bastard, and it's not about him for me or many others I think... It's about the wrong involved in the death penalty and the questionable morality behind it. The state conducting murders is a faulty system, and even if it were not, I'd still be opposed.

[BillZBubb]

12. The liberal view is that the government shouldn't be in the killing

business. Is that too hard to understand? Life in prison without parole will accomplish just as much as the death penalty.

And actually, the Bush gang is one of the most violent gangs in American History. Williams is a piker compared to them.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

14. It's not about Tookie any more than it was about John Wayne Gacey.(sp)

It's about whether you support the death penalty. It's a shame this discussion only comes up when the condemned is someone particularly heinous.

[Sparkman]

17. We have a failed and prejudicial legal system, that is a fact. You have

made a point of expressing your nature, which is eye for an eye, and state sponsored killing for the purpose of vengence. Many of us have lost loved ones to violent criminals, and feel differently than you do about ALL of these issues.
Love and peace and positive energy are not served by your public statement, imo.

[bowens43]

22. How will murdering him help his victims?

Thats just ridiculous. The bottom line is that capital punishment is wrong. It is NEVER justified.

[Parche]

41. DP

He is not being "murdered" justice is being performed

[noiretextatique]

27. another member of that jury? or just a mindreader

he claims he's innocent of the murders he was convicted for, and they evidence used to convict him was circumstantial.
as far as i know, since he wasn't tried for anything else (like founding a gang), the issue is, given the evidence in the case, and given his efforts at rehabilitation, should he be granted clemency?

[Walt Starr]

58. Circumstantial evidence is FAR MORE RELIABLE than eyewitnesses

Seriously, I'd believe a conviction based solely upon circumstantial evidence fare more than a conviction based solely upon the testimony of eyewitnesses.

[Hawkeye-X]

30. Basically I'm for Tookie to receive life in prison

But I agree with you - too many Tookie threads. I've started alerting them and asking the mods to place a mortarium on them.

[stlsaxman]

33. He's been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize Five times...

that alone should be worth SOMETHING in regards redemption.

[MercutioATC]

38. So were Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro.

ANYBODY can be nominated...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/content/education/chi-0512080020dec08,1,3233102.story?coll=chi-education-hed

[Critters2]

39. Anyone can nominate

anyone for a Nobel Prize. W has been nominated for a Nobel prize. The Nobel committee has very loose requirements for nomination. Winning it, well, that's a bit harder. But the only reason my dog hasn't been nominated for a Nobel prize is that I can't find their address.

[MercutioATC]

40. Here ya go...

http://nobelprize.org/help/faq/#1

[hiaasenrocks]

51. Why? n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

34. How does murdering him help his victims?

Violence only begets more violence. I don't think that the DP does anything for our country.

[Deja Q]

46. Simple. Saving his life is far more important to us than things like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5581866

The life of a PURPORTEDLY "reformed" vicious cold-blooded murderer is worthy of all this time and attention when there are far bigger concerns that sure as hell affect more people; none of which wantonly and brutally killed others for selfish gain.

(BTW: "reformed" is another word for "born again", which is just another word for "spurious")

[foreigncorrespondent]

47. What is with all these...

...pro killing posts? I honestly thought I took a wrong turn and ended up at freeperville or something!

[monobrau]

50. It's embarrasing

Especially when there are innocent people behind bars who have been freed because of activism. The romanticizing of the tookies and mumias makes me want to vomit.
If you really care about your community you should be thinking of the victims of gang violence and thuggery. Sure it's a symptom of a bigger problem and we can discuss it over coffee some time, but I can assure you the victims don't give a shit about the socioeconomic background of their tormentors.

[meisje]

60. He just needs hugs and all will be ok

:puke::puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Raydawg1234]

61. I think the death penalty is wrong..........

But we should give the same Zeal to EVERY CASE. Tookie is given unfair attention due to has status as a former Crip gang leader, and that is a shame!

[Connie_Corleone]

65. There were victims?? I thought Tookie killed shadows or something.

I haven't seen much posted here about the victims. But, if you think his punishment should be carried out then be prepared to be called names like bloodsucking f*****s. Or some people will just say that you are not a true liberal.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. Because the death penalty is wrong - regardless

of what he did or who he is.

I do not wish to be complicit in murder -- state sanctioned or otherwise.

[FreedomAngel82]

68. Did you follow the case?

Do you know everything about this case? Do you have die-hard evidence that he did it? Prove it.

[Thtwudbeme]

70. Thanks for posting this:

I knew I had missed a few people. Don't bother to respond to my post, I will never see it.