There is another execution scheduled for Thursday.

[NaturalHigh]

John Nixon is scheduled to be executed in Mississippi tomorrow. Why am I not reading dozens of posts from outraged death penalty opponents? Where is Mike Farrell? Jamie Foxx? Jesse Jackson? Surely there will be at least a thousand protesters demanding that the sentence be commuted. Right?

As I've stated before in other threads, I'm pretty torn on the issue of capital punishment, but it's sad to see the blatant hypocrisy of people who were so outraged by the "Tookie" case and are silent on cases when celebrities aren't involved.

[Catherine Vincent]

1. He should not be executed.

I'm against the DP. There, are you satisfied? There's nothing we can do really... being in the minority. Sigh!

[melody]

2. Mike Farrell and Jamie Foxx live in California

Don't ask me why Jesse Jackson does anything any more. To think I voted for him in
the "rainbow coalition" days.

[Selatius]

3. My position is still the same. Abolish the DP

It's not a deterrent to crime, and it won't bring back the dead victims. It's just revenge, and this isn't what a society based on reason, not wrath, should be about. It's not what Jesus would support, and so many claim to be good Christians, and that is truly the sad part.

Gandhi once said that he liked Jesus, but he didn't like Christians. The Christians were so unlike Jesus.

[LeftyMom]

4. Part of the difference

is that in California there's a relatively progressive population and a national media presence. In Mississippi neither is the case. Even without Tookie Williams' notoriety, nearly any California execution will get more media attention than one in the south.

[NaturalHigh]

6. Really?

I haven't heard too much outrage about Clarence Allen, who is scheduled to be executed next month in California.

[LeftyMom]

7. Well one heard very little in the media or on DU last month about Tookie

and he was something of a special case, most death row inmates aren't minor celebrities with thier own movie, books, etc.

Edit: If I recall the guy you're speaking of correctly, his case should prove interesting due to his advanced age and infirmity.

[ET Awful]

52. That's because the case was still in appeals and no execution date

had been set. Once a date was set, the real activity began.

The Court isn't permitted to consider letters from the public regarding matters before it, only legal filings.

[rpannier]

8. You will see it

Your post makes it sound like once Tookie was executed they'd pick up and move to the next prison. You demean those who work against the DP with your post. Those opposed to the DP are not part of some carnival that moves from town-to-town. I find your post insulting.

[NaturalHigh]

11. Sorry if you're insulted.

It's just that, by and large, this "Tookie" case has seemed like a celebrity bandwagon sort of thing to me. If the condemned had been an old white guy without a public relations firm and an army of lawyers, we wouldn't have heard a damn thing about it. You can bet that Susan Sarandon and Barbara Streisand won't be making any public statements condemning the execution of John Nixon.

[rpannier]

14. There is truth in what you say

And I apologise for getting heated. I am opposed to the DP and a lot of other people are too. Many of us are less concerned with who it is and more concerned with the principle of the issue. You are right, however, that there are people who get out there for the media attention that certain executions bring. Tookie was a horrible human being. He did terrible things and, while I did not support his execution, I will not be flying into Los Angeles from Korea for his funeral either. Unfortunately, there are people who will come from around the world "To be seen" at his funeral, like it's some sort of fundraiser, or gala.
Sadly, there is a lot of truth in what you say.
I don't want you to think that I am, or would ever belittle your position. Many good honest people struggle with the issue of the DP. Your concerns are quite valid. I wish you luck in coming to your own conclusion.

[NaturalHigh]

15. Thank you.

This is an issue that I've struggled with. As I said in another thread, part of me says that inhuman monsters who brutally take life with such obvious enjoyment deserve the ultimate punishment. Another part of me remembers that Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him.

[Catherine Vincent]

16. Sarandon doesn't have to.

There are others that make it their life mission to protest and oppose the death penalty for all. I don't know why some DP cases get more attention, it's not hypocrisy like you say. I guess you weren't around when Gary Graham from Texas was executed. That was talked about for weeks. It didn't seem to divide everyone here like this Tookie guy.

[NaturalHigh]

17. I remember the Gary Graham execution.

If I remember correctly, the biggest issue there was the question of his guilt. Although there were some people who questioned Williams' guilt, the most vocal argument seemed to be that he was "reformed."

[Maddy McCall]

36. Bullshit. And to think a MOD holds that opinion and OPENLY airs...

it is just amazing.

Did you know that there have been masses of protestors at Parchman every night for the past week? All Mississippians, too--just not the kind who show up to get their face on national news. Not the kind who show up to increase their celebrity. Not the kind who show up because it's the cool, liberal thing to do.

These protestors are Mississippians who DO NOT LIKE THE DEATH PENALTY AND WANT IT ABOLISHED. How do I know? Because many of my friends are at Parchman right now.

I'm responding to you as I would any DUer who demonstrated such blatant regional bias and ignorant stereotyping. Before you make such broad-brush posts, perhaps you should think about what you are saying.

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. If it's not on the news....it isn't happening.

It's the new order of things. I'm a little stunned by that myself.

[rpannier]

5. I disagree with you on blatant hypocrisy

Because you don't see dozens of posts does not mean we aren't working to get his sentence commuted. I have signed several petitions (albeit all on-line) to save John Nixon, because I oppose his death sentence as well. I signed several for Nguyen in Singapore and I wrote a letter to Lee.
For some people it's a case-by-case basis. For others, like me, it's an all-or-nothing affair.
Sometimes "Celebrity cases" (which is just a word used by some people to be-little the actions of people who truly believe in what thre are doing) has more to do with the fundamental fairness of the conviction and the circumstances surrounding the conviction.
I am disappointed in DUers who jump on the use of the word "celebrity" because it is used the way conservatives use the word "liberal" as some sort of evil sounding word.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. We are in good company regarding the Death Penalty

China, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, yep... examples of very much free countries....

Culture of life my ass and respect for life my ass!

[tuvor]

10. I don't know what the celebs were basing their protests upon. But

virtually every "Tookie" post on DU that I read (and I read a lot) said that this was not about Tookie--rather that it was all about the death penalty.

In the wake of Tookie's execution, it's been pretty quiet around here--no groups galvanized enough to try to abolish the death penalty, for instance. At least none that I've seen. Certainly nothing that's made it to the Greatest Page.

Starting with Nixon's execution tomorrow, I can't say that I see no hypocrisy here.

[AndyTiedye]

18. There Seemed to be a Chance That We Could Make a Difference

The Gropenfuhrer seemed to be actually considering clemency.
Is there any possibility of that in the Mississippi case?

[NaturalHigh]

19. Probably not.

The only real issue seems to be his age (he's 77).

[RB TexLa]

23. And he says

that he has "risked his life" a couple of times to save people, or help people. Guess he wasn't paid for their deaths.

[tuvor]

20. Everyone on DU who's against the DP won't know unless they try.

Like they did with Tookie.

Forgive me. I have the advantage of knowing that--since I live in a country where there is no death penalty--I don't have to put my money where my mouth is.

But I just can't help noticing the stark contrast over the past 24 hours.

[hiaasenrocks]

12. Nixon doesn't have a PR firm on retainer. n/t

[Moochy]

13. Capital Punishment is wrong

Consider this my outrage post. :eyes:

[...of J.Temperance]

21. Hey NaturalHigh, you might appreciate mah (fixed link)

Poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5594110

Tookie deserved to die and this sonofabitch deserves to die too...and just like Tookie, he will get his today.

I'm not too shocked that the majority of people who've voted in my poll don't know who Nixon is even.

No celebrity endorsements, PR firms, no film et al you see.

On Edit: Fixed link.

[NaturalHigh]

22. I've seen the poll.

Frankly, I'm not surprised. I guess the celebs who were in a state of panic about the Williams execution just don't have enough sympathy and outrage to go around.

By the way, did anyone else notice how everyone seemed to make it a point to call Williams by his middle name, "Tookie"? I guess we were supposed to believe that he really couldn't be such a bad guy with such a "cute" name. If only John Nixon had a middle name like "Pooh-Bear", maybe he could get a little press.

[...of J.Temperance]

24. By Golly, you've got it!! From NOW on ALL people on Death Row need

To give themselves a cutesy nickname :)

"Bunny", "Teddy Bear", "Pooh Bear", "Pipsy", "Sugar Bee" et al...that sort of thing!!

[Rowdyboy]

39. How about Charles "Sugar Bear" Manson or Sirhan "Boo-Boo" Sirhan?

I know they're not on death row, but maybe we could get them clemency!

Seriously, I think the media personalized his case through the use of his nickname. The man should be called by his name, Stanley.

[...of J.Temperance]

55. I vote for "Boo-Boo"

Derek Lee Todd, the Baton Rouge serial killer, we'll have to give him a nickname too...and let's not forget that Andrea Yates who drowned her five kids, she's got a new trial coming up...she...I'm not sure IF Yates needs a nickname because she's already got a fan club.

Yes I agree with your comments, Stanley DOESN'T have quite the ring that Tookie does.

[LittleClarkie]

25. Apparently "Save Nixon" doesn't have the same ring

I've wondered the same. A thousand people have died. Why is Tookie more interesting somehow.

[Blue_In_AK]

26. The death penalty is always wrong...

[sandnsea]

27. That's a sad case

He shouldn't be on death row in the first place, he really did have lousy attorneys. In any event, the Williams case was different because of what he tried to accomplish even though he was on death row. I don't know that Nixon has done anything remarkable in the 20 years he's been in prison. That's the difference. There just isn't alot to try to rally public support around.

[johnnyburma]

54. But on the plus side

he never established a gang responsible for the death of hundreds - if not thousands.

[ulysses]

28. I would suggest

that you have no idea what people do. There is no hypocrisy just because there's no flamewar in GD.

[malaise]

29. Capital punishment is an offence to humanity n/t

[Fescue4u]

31. Vicious killers are a greater offense to humanity n/t

[malaise]

32. Then why is it that countries

that do not have the death penalty have fewer murders per capita than the US. Put simply the US is a nation that glorifies violence at all levels.

[Fescue4u]

33. Because they are different countries

with a myrid of different customs.


You don't serious believe that the Death Penality encourges people to murder do you?

If so, explain why the murder rate didnt drop in the 70s during the time in which it was declared unconstititutional.

[malaise]

34. Because the US has a love affair with violence

most guns, most bombs, most nuclear weapons and most state sponsored killing overseas. It's a culture of violence.

[Robert Cooper]

61. C'mon, Fescue... just how different are our customs compared to yours?

You execute to save yourselves the money and bother of keeping 'mad dogs'.

Execution serves no other purpose than to empty a room for another.

Nations that value the lives of -all- their citizens have lower crime rates. Nations that don't have high crime rates.

Isn't that obvious?

[mitchum]

71. Yes, they ARE enemies of the people

WWCD?
(What Would Che Do?)
I think I know

[mitchum]

72. Yes, they ARE enemies of the people

WWCD?
(What Would Che Do?)
I think I know

[Fescue4u]

30. No Fear. The Tookie acolytes will find another Hero

Remember, just a regular run of the mill killer isnt enough to merit Hero status.

They need to be more than a just vicious killer. They are looking for vicious killers with Charisma and a PR firm backing him up.

[ET Awful]

35. First, despite what has been blared to the contrary, in the Williams

case, there WAS a legitimate doubt as to guilt.

Second, Williams had made efforts to redeem himself, and his suggestions for negotiating gang truces were used to great effect as far away as South Africa. Thousands of youths were deterred from joining gangs thanks to his efforts.

Third, the only reason the Williams case gained great notoriety is because a woman (Barbara Becnel) who was writing her own book on gang violence interviewed him many years ago. Through her series of interviews, she decided to not only help him get his own books published, but became convinced of his innocence. She remained with him to the end. It should be noted that she did NOT believe him to be innocent when she met him, having only seen the information that many of those on DU screeching for his blood paid attention to, once she saw the other information that was not as heavily publicized, she became convinced.

Had it not been for her, Williams would have been poisoned to death by the State of California without fanfare.

BTW, those of us who oppose the death penalty oppose it universally. I'm fortunate enough to live in a state where such barbaric practices do not exist. When I lived in California, I attended anti-death penalty rallies several times, I signed many petitions for clemency, and attended many a vigil.

At ANY execution that takes place, you will see anti-death penalty activists.

However, for the most part, we continue our work, whether it be through e-mails, petitions, research, etc., it's normally the media who makes one particular case sensational.

Also, to the poster above who whined about Williams being called "Tookie", that wasn't his middle name, it was his nickname. It was the name he was called by his family from the time he was a small boy. It's the name he went by. It's the name he preferred. I'm quite sorry if you don't like it, but it's his name.

[jmm]

40. I agree

Not much I can add because you summed it up pretty well. It's not hypocrisy that causes some cases to be better known than others it is ignorance. It's difficult for the public to know about a case if little or no attention is paid to it.

Under the circumstances it would be strange if he wasn't referred to as Tookie. My family and closest friends rarely refer to me by my real name. People frequently don't go by their real names. If they have done so for most of their life they shouldn't have to start when they become famous.

[meisje]

38. He doesn't have a catchy name like "Tookie"

Lets all light a candle for "Nixy" Come on hypocrites!!!!

[ET Awful]

41. What a load of bullshit.

Nothing more needs be said.

[sniffa]

42. what did i miss?

:shrug:

[ET Awful]

43. Calling everyone who supported clemency for Williams hypocrites

because there isn't as much attention being paid to Nixon, and insinuating it's because of a nickname. I'm tired of the bullshit.

[NaturalHigh]

44. Actually, I don't think it because of the nickname...

(though I did read someplace that it was his given middle name), I think the reason most people know him as "Tookie" is that his PR people made sure that was the name we heard on the "news" every night. I think the reason we heard so much about Williams, as opposed to Nixon or countless other executions which have barely made a blip on the media radar, is that Williams had a PR team, an army of lawyers, and dozens of celebrities who made it fashionable to "save Tookie." Where are those people who cared so deeply about "Tookie" when some no-name in Mississippi is about to be executed?

[ET Awful]

45. He's been called Tookie since he was a small child. It had nothing

to do with television or anything else, it's his name.

It had nothing to do with a PR team, it had to do with the fact that he made a conscious effort to redeem himself.

Many people got behind Williams because he was trying to deter youth from following in his footsteps. The same can't be said for Nixon, or for the "no-name" in Mississippi.

People paid attention to Williams because he tried to make a difference.

I knew of his work and who he was years ago. The same can't be said for most of the folks at DU who had no clue who he was until it was announced that the US Supreme Court wouldn't hear his case. Then all of a sudden everyone was an expert.

[NaturalHigh]

46. He did one heck of a job, didn't he?

The Crips that he founded aren't still out there blowing people away, raping, robbing, and dealing drugs are they? Oh wait, they are. Of course, "Tookie" brokered a peace between them and the Bloods in L.A. so that they could all victimize more decent people instead.

[ET Awful]

47. First, the Crips existed before Williams, do some research.

Raymond Washington (who was shot and killed in 1979) formed the Crips, Williams came later. In fact, the only knowledgable person that credits Williams with founding the Crips is Williams himself. Washington founded the gang as the "Baby Avenues" which morphed into the "Cribs" which morphed further into "Crips." A simple 5 minutes of research will teach you this. http://www.nagia.org/Crips_and_Bloods.htm (interestingly, a national association of Gang researchers doesn't even mention Williams) or if that's not good enough for you http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.crips.reut/index.html

Second, the Crips are NOT just a single gang. Hundreds of other gangs formed and called themselves Crips. Also, there were gangs in LA before the Crips existed, the largest of them being hispanic gangs (such as 18th Street, still the largest gang in LA). Contrary to your uninformed mind, what you call the Crips is over 100 gangs, most of whom do not get along. . . . of course, if you knew anything about the actual situation, you'd know this as well.

Third, tens of thousand of youths credit Williams with dissuading them from joining gangs.

Fourth, if you'd actually research anything, you'd know this.

Fifth, you just proved your complete ignorance of anything related to the matter, and consequently made your way onto my ignore list. I only engage with discussions with people willing to learn facts. Bye.

Little thought for you to ponder. . . if he saved even 100 kids from joining gangs, consequently sparing them and any of their potential victims, he did more than you ever did.

I'm through discussing this with people that are unwilling to do any research, but instead accept the story from the same sources they ridicule in every other situation, such as Fox.

[TahitiNut]

48. The facts of the matter are ...

- San Quentin is within a bicycle ride of millions of liberals; the Bay Area is (arguably) the most liberal, anti-death-penalty area in the U.S. where the death penalty is still in effect.
- Celebrities get press attention, whether that's right or wrong, it's a fact.
- Tookie was on death row for 24 years and there's a significant plurality of the public that believe he was convicted wrongly. Again, it matters little whether you or I agree - that's fact.
- California is the most populated state in the country and is a primary focus for eradication of the death penalty.

The reasons for criminal punishment are (1) rehabilitation, (2) revenge, (3) defense against a "danger to society", and (4) deterrence/intimidation.

In the view of many, Tookie Williams' execution met the least defensible of these objectives.

In the final analysis, however, it's a fallacy to smear the death penalty opponents for a perceived uneven coverage of each execution, either on DU or in the general press. The FACT of the matter is that every issue is addressed in a similarly uneven fashion. We don't discuss every single KIA in Iraq at the same level as we discussed a professional football player who enlisted and got killed. We don't discuss every casualty to the same degree as we do Binka's son. We don't discuss every instance of missing children like we did Natalee Holloway. That's not an example of hypocrisy - it's an example of limited bandwidth.

[Solomon]

49. No two ways about it. This is a very insulting post.

A lot of bitterness exhibited here. You sure you're "pretty torn on the issue of capital punishment"?

[TahitiNut]

51. At best it's merely fallacious.

:shrug: I tend to think it's intellectually dishonest/disorganized.

[NaturalHigh]

56. It was not my intention to insult you.

I was merely pointing out the fact that we've heard a lot less about Nixon (or 99% of condemned prisoners) than we've heard about "Tookie." As for my thoughts on capital punishment, "pretty torn" is about the best I can describe them. If you don't care to believe me, that's entirely up to you. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me, and I don't feel the need to prove myself to you or anybody else.

[ptolle]

75. intention

It is my intention to insult you.I don't believe you and generally feel that there are always in every society asses who have a higher regard for retribution than for justice, but try to hide behind some sort of agnoticism on the issue.

[NaturalHigh]

78. I hope you feel better...

now that you've gotten that out of your system. As I've stated elsewhere, I fully realize that part of the reason we still have capital punishment is a yearning for vengeance.

[Mutley]

50. He should not be executed. No one should be executed.

But perhaps DUers who oppose the death penalty no longer feel welcome bringing that opinion onto DU. I sure don't.

[QC]

53. Sorry, but there's no radical chic in defending

an elderly white hitman in Mississippi. Besides, nobody made a movie about Nixon.

[NaturalHigh]

58. Just a little over four hours to go...

I'm sure that hundreds of people, many of them famous, are now singing "We shall overcome" and demanding that this execution be stopped. Right?

[Fescue4u]

57. Does he have PR firm? A Publicist?

No?

Eh, cant be bothered with him then.

[NaturalHigh]

60. No, and I doubt that his face will sell many t-shirts.

The "RIP Tookie" shirts, however, are already for sale.

[calico1]

59. I am not a celebrity so

I can't comment on why they pay attention to some cases more than others nor do I care. It does not change my position. I am against it, period. Of course, if a case gets covered more in the news then people are going to be more aware of it than one that gets little coverage. Why would that be so surprising?

[Nye Bevan]

62. Nixon put the gun an inch away from her head and fired

Nixon, two of his sons, plus another man, went to the home of Thomas and Virginia Tucker on Jan. 22, 1985.

They had been hired by Virginia Tucker’s former husband, Elster Joseph Ponthieux, to kill her.

When they entered the house, Nixon brandished a .22-caliber pistol and said, “I brought y’all something.”

The Tuckers offered to buy the men off, but the elder Nixon said that, “the deal’s already been made.”

Thomas Tucker was able to escape despite being wounded.

John Nixon then turned the gun on 45-year-old Virginia Tucker, who was being held on the floor. Nixon put the gun an inch away from her head and fired. She died the following day.

Nobody is claiming that this scumbag is innocent. Rather, they are saying he should not die because he did things like serve in the army, and because he has "severe passive-aggressive personality disorder".

As I posted a couple of times in the Tookie threads, I really wish that the anti-DP lobby would choose better poster boys. Why focus on cop-killers, gangsters and serial killers like Mumia, Tookie, Michael Ross, and now this guy, when there are people on death row like Cory Maye who are almost certainly innocent? See http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/12/10/20854/628 and http://www.theagitator.com/archives/025962.php

[calico1]

63. Well, some DP opponents

such as myself oppose it because we do not consider the death penalty to be something an advanced, civilized society should engage in. We think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than the condemned murderer. I think the DP is wrong. That doesn't mean I think everyone on death row is innocent. I think you will find very few if any DP opponents who would claim that.


spelling

[NaturalHigh]

64. That's a position that I can respect...

even if I'm still undecided on the issue. It's the hypocrites who were only into the "Save Tookie" case because it was fashionable and hip that irritate me.

[Nye Bevan]

68. I understand that viewpoint

but I think the best way to generate public support for abolishing the DP is to focus on cases where innocent people are on death row. Not people like Tookie and Mumia who are guilty but trendy.

[calico1]

73. I agree that is the best way

to gain support for the abolision of it. Though I am against it regardless, I understand your point and agree.

[Dark]

65. Uh, maybe because some people support the death penalty. n/t

[sojourner]

66. i'm against it in all cases...and wish people would get facts upon which

to base their positions, else admit that for them it's a matter of their particular brand of values...and emotion-based, pure and simple.

i don't like to get into the difference between "deserving" people vs "undeserving" people getting the DP. all emotion-based and allows us to pretend that we can decide whose life is worth more, a disgusting endeavor if i ever saw/heard of one.

some facts about homicide rates and the DP --- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5594411&mesg_id=5594411

[sexybomber]

67. LET HIM LIVE.

There, I'm not silent anymore. I don't think they should kill this guy either.

An eye for an eye is pointless.

[DanCa]

69. What religion is the governor of Missippi

If the governor is catholic i suggest that you contact the arch diocese via eamail or phone and ask them that how can a catholic politicol get away with supporting the DP. Catholic politicians are not supposed to support the death penality and recieve communion. Lets get these people to work with us for a change.

[Silverhair]

70. He is a Presbyterian NT

[QC]

74. Nixon's been dead for over three hours now. Wonder if Susan Sarandon

showed up?

[NaturalHigh]

77. Not that I heard.

I guess she had other priorities.

[lonestarnot]

76. U. S. is just a killing machine.