I think the world is a slightly worse place without Tookie, and Karla Faye

[Thtwudbeme]

Tucker in it.

I kept waiting to feel "safer." I don't.

I kept waiting to feel satisfaction that "justice was done."

I don't.

Now I wonder if all of the people that were pleased by his death are going to pick up the torch and carry it to try to help young men and women stay off drugs, out of gangs, and out of jail.

I am NOT waiting for that; it's not going to happen. Being opinionated about "justice" ultimately doesn't mean jack shit.

Stephanie

[MrSlayer]

1. The world is much worse for losing two people who laughed as they killed.

Williams laughed maniacally for 5 minutes after describing the gurgling sounds of his victims and that saint of saints Tucker professed that she had multiple orgasms as she pick axed her victim. Yeah, I sure wish they were still around to enlighten us with their humanity and wisdom.

[sui generis]

2. what a bunch of horseshit

and braying jackasses all over this country had multiple orgasms when those two were murdered back by the state, including a few braying jackasses right here on DU.

You can't say murder is wrong, and then punish somebody by murdering them. That's just stupid.

Now let me tell you what I really think.

[Kiteflyer]

10. Murderers know the law

Yet they kill anyway. They don't care about breaking the law or killing innocent people. So why should you or me care when they are executed. The world is better off without them. It cost about $2500 a month to support them in jail. They are NOT worth it. They didn't care about the law or other peoples lives.

[GirlinContempt]

35. the DP costs more than

life in prison, usually by hundreds of thousands of dollars

[stepnw1f]

39. "Yet they kill anyway."

By your own admission, the death penalty is not a deterent. So why the Death Penalty? Death is a quick way out of serving a life sentence. So why?

[Parche]

11. murder

The state didnt murder anyone

They murdered themselves, when they killed other people

No one should be allowed to murder another person, you forfeit your life
if you commit murder, and that is just what they did.

The world is actually a better place now

[sui generis]

14. as I said, pure horseshit

"they murdered themselves" - that's not critical thinking or rational.

The fact of the matter is that we're a bunch of shit for brain yahoos when we say it's okay to put someone to death for any reason. I notice neither of you responded to my actual argument, or qualified how you handle killing someone who turns out to be innocent. You see, if it's an eye for an eye, then we should put the jury death for convicting an innocent man and the judge to death and the prosecutor, and the warden, and all the braying asses that were participatory to the crime. Because it is a crime to murder, and if the penalty for murder is death, then let's have at it.

Now on the topic of murdering one's self: I'm all for giving people who have life in prison without parole the opportunity to commit assisted-suicide if they can't handle the room and board, but using murder to punish murder is just, I can't think of a better word than stupid, so, stupid.

Money arguments are lame. Please quote real numbers and show your sources. Jail is a sunk cost. Jail exists. Keeping someone on death row through all their appeals for 26 years doesn't cost any more than keeping them in jail for 26 years.

[mitchum]

47. MURDER is indeed a LEGAL DEFINITION...

no matter how much you don't want to believe it.

[sui generis]

50. put to death an someone who is innocent

Which we have done. Google it. I'll go find the list if you're too lazy.

How do you handle it? Is it murder when we do it to someone who didn't deserve it after all? Why won't any of you pro DP cavepeople answer this question? Cause your skeered. That's why.

[TankLV]

117. Ahh - but the crux of your argument is to have sypmathy for these scumbags

who are not deserving of the shit out of my butt.

Not whether the death penalty is good or bad.

Quite another thing to make saints out of crinminal scum such as these as you are trying UNSUCCESSFULLY to do.

I'm against the death penalty.

But these two are scum.

[foreigncorrespondent]

83. Well can you explain to me then...

...why the killers of Matthew Shepherd and Brandon Teena didn't "kill themselves" by killing these two human beings!

Now we all know why Matthew's killers still have their life. They have Matthews own PARENTS to thank for that. Hell just read Matt's dads statement he made during the sentencing of the killers of his son. These are people the left should truly unite with. Not those on the right who just get raging hard ons and wet thighs just thinking about the next state sanctioned murder.

And what about Brandon Teena's killers? Why do they still live then? Is it because Brandon was just another queer, and to many (even some right here on DU) believe Brandon's killers to be heroes for ridding the world of yet another queer?

And if you believe the above mentioned killers should have received the DP, where were you at sentencing? Where was your outcry for state sanctioned murder?

The hypocrisy with the pro DP Is just so astounding to me!

[rd_kent]

16. Get this staright, the state did not "murder" him!!!

He was found guilty in a court and sentenced to death. The real crime was that he sat on death row for 25 years. He shouls have been executed a long time ago.

[sui generis]

18. get this straight

when we (you, me, the prison medic, a nurse, a jury of his peers) pushes a button that results in his death, it is murder. By definition it is murder. We call it punishment because some people really get off on the "ultimate" punishment, but that's what it is.

You're barkin' up the wrong tree here. I've got all night.

[Aretha]

23. Actually, "by definition"

It is not murder. It is killing but it is not murder. Murder is "unlawful" killing. Killing done by the state after a legal process is "by definition" not unlawful. When you say "by definition" you should at least have the definition right.

[sui generis]

30. taking human life, does that simplify it?

Where did all you newbies come from anyway. You aren't going to change my mind on this.

Aretha, my snarkiness aside, I do appreciate that you gave a genuinely good clarification though.

[Aretha]

73. "Where did all you newbies come from anyway."

Oh, we were sent here by our dark overlord ... I thought that everyone knew this. There was a memo.

We came over in this van:

[sui generis]

76. cute

no really. I have a sense of humor. It's somewhere around here . . . darn it.

[Rex]

31. Murder is the intentional killing of another.

The state most definitely wanted him dead. State sanctioned murder.

[Aretha]

40. Murder is the unlawful killing of another

Not merely the intentional killing. Otherwise, every soldier who kills (including men like John Kerry, John Murtha, Wesley Clark, Max Cleland, Bob Kerrey and many others) is a murderer. Williams and Tucker were executed. They were killed. They were not murdered.

[Rex]

78. I'm just going by what it says in the dictionary.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=52547&dict=CALD

I agree there is a big difference between intentional and unlawful. Since we all have a choice, I've always assumed it was an intentional willful act of killing. Killing takes all forms, but murder is intentional. I can also see how willful killing could be unlawful.

[mitchum]

44. Don't bother, you'll only confuse them with precision of language...

Of course, you are correct

[sui generis]

45. I agreed with Aretha

defending your life in extremis, such as war, or self defense is a perfectly acceptable reason to choose your life over the life of an assailant.

Is that language too precise? Maybe I shouldn't bother confusing you any more.

[mitchum]

48. No, my emotional friend, you are the one who is confused

[sui generis]

52. I just have a sharp tongue

unlike, you who are clearly telepathic. Do you often hear voices too? :evilgrin:

Mitchum, I just want a spirited discussion. Sorry if you are getting emotionally involved, emotion really isn't necessary to chasing down some ideas here.

[Just Me]

63. The DP is only emotional to those who advocate it,....

,...since it serves NO logical or ethical purpose.

The only justification for the DP is the raw, unanchored, negative human emotion of revenge.

[mitchum]

112. Make up your mind...

are DP supporters bloodthirsty
or
are DP supporters in favor in coldblooded killing?
It's hard to fathom how both are possible.

And I guess that your seeming compassion ISN'T an emotion? Odd.

[last_texas_dem]

113. I agree

If a pro-DP person would use a non-emotional argument to support their position I would have a lot more respect for it. It seems the facts simply don't support such an emotion-based, irrational position.

[Just Me]

56. Wow. Talk about "mincing"!!! Murder vs killing. Killing vs murder.

Both require INTENTIONAL DEATH. INTENTIONAL.

Now, does either serve a rational, ethical purpose above desperation or revenge or power over others? If so, identify.

[ljaycox]

115. The fact that the state....

is willing to demonstrate that it has and will use the monopoly on legitimate violence conferred upon it by the people is a perfectly rational purpose for the death penalty. It may not be a sufficiently good reason to you. But, making the statement that the strongest thug in the 'hood can be put down like a dog, by the community, if he crosses the line is a rational message. The death penalty could be viewed as test of wills between a thug and the community around him. The many against the one. It may be important, in some way that transcends mere revenge that that point be made occasionally. What is the problem around hear with "emotional argument"? Some of the worst things I have ever done I was very good at justifying rationally. It only when we let our emotional lives into our "reasoning" that we can humanize it.

[Thorandmjolnir]

133. Guess it depends on who makes the definition

In Europe capital punishment is murder.

Guess the argument is the same as to torture. Unless it courses organ failure or death it is not torture. (Bush administration definition)

[rd_kent]

33. I guess its a matter of opinion, then.

And I will leave it at that, since I DONT have all night.

[sui generis]

36. well nobody's replying to what to do about killing someone

who is innocent.

Guess that's a matter of opinion too.

[rd_kent]

38. who was innocent?

Tookie sure wasnt!

[sui generis]

43. oh stop

pretending to be dumb is not allowed here.

You are on a progressive site. I expect you to accept a challenge to why you think the way you do about this, not to play highschool word games. There are literally hundreds of examples of people who either were undeniably innocent or of questionable guilt, not just in the 21 century but all through the history of the death penalty.

You are evading, rather than addressing every point I'm trying to make, and the reason is clear. You can't really justify it beyond the basic tit for tat response that we all have to violence. I am far from a turn the other cheek person, in case you couldn't already tell. But I also believe in higher principles in society, and social responsibility not to be like the criminals we prosecute.

[TankLV]

119. Then why are you still here posting - you certainly fit your own

definition.

Tookie was/is guilty.

A jury of his peers looked at all the evidence and came to that conclusion.

I'd say they had a lot more information than you.

[sui generis]

131. still with tookie

tookie tookie tookie. there I've said tookie more than in any other post on this thread just now.

talk to the hand.

[progressivebydesign]

110. so euthenasia is murder and abortion, too?

I mean.. if you think that simply pushing a button and causing a death is murder, then wouldn't mercy killing and late term abortions qualify?

I'm not saying I agree with anything that either of you have written, but by your logic, you include those other things. Is that how it works? All killing is murder?

[MrSlayer]

20. What is bullshit? They DID laugh and orgasm over thier victims.

According to their own words.

I wasn't happy or sad over the executions, I just felt that what had to be done was done.

And they weren't murdered, they were justly killed. Big difference. Not all killings are murder.

But you go ahead and cry over the scum of the earth, that's your right. I reserve my sympathy for those who deserve it, the victims.

[sui generis]

28. coupla things pal

I'm not crying over killing scum of the earth. I'm bemoaning that we think it's alright. I'm not doling out sympathy for criminals, I'm doling out judgement for our barbarism in this regard. And I'm not taking human life, no matter what the fuck you call it. So don't give me gradeschool justifications and crap about "just killings". Now, if I were defending my kid or loved one I would make that motherfucker flatter than three day old beer, but that's of the moment, and on my own behalf. Twenty six years later, we're not executing the same person. That in itself is a travesty of "justice".

I notice you haven't answered what I said about putting an innocent person to death. If justice is what you think it is it would only be just if we killed everyone in that decision chain, every time we put an innocent guy to death.

What's the difference to you? Do you think that if my kid got killed and I asked the court not to seek the death penalty that the state still has a right to kill this guy? This is a complicated question. Depending which way you answer means that the "victim's" rights aren't considered at all in reality, or that it should be an eye for an eye.

In my barbaric world that I struggle to be better than, an eye for an eye means I would get to kill that guys kid and make him feel my pain.

Don't think for one second that because I am against the death penalty that I'm some kind of shrinking wuss - or some absurd bleeding heart criminal lover. Don't even go there.

[MrSlayer]

64. Ok buddy boy, here's my answer.

You say you would make the motherfucker who did something to your family flatter than three day old beer. That's the way I look at it. I think to myself, what would I do or want done if it were me? For me personally, the fucker had better make sure the cops get him first because I am not going to let him have a nice little painkiller before putting him to sleep.

I agree that 26 years later is way too long. That's why the appeals for the patently guilty should be denied and the execution performed right after sentencing. Again, this is for the no doubt about it cases.

For cases where there is some doubt or shaky evidence then life without parole is fine until further evidence can be found that proves their innocence or proves they are guilty without question. If that never happens, life is sufficent.

The absolutely without a doubt guilty shouldn't be allowed off just because there is the possibility of an innocent person being put to death in another case.

I don't think you would ask the that DP not be applied to the person who killed your child but let's just say you do. If the state decides to go with it anyway, I'd be ok with it because that's what the person would deserve. I'm still advocating for the victim even if you aren't.

I wouldn't want to kill the guy's kid, I'd want to kill him. His child did nothing to me.

If you don't want to come off as a criminal lover (I don't know you well enough to call you a wuss. heh.) or coddler then don't talk about how empty the world is without such murdering creeps because that's what it sounds like.

[sui generis]

79. please stop with the admonishing tone

I'm probably older and meaner than you anyway. Definitely meaner. So thanks for the advice about not coming off as a criminal lover but it was an unecessary jab and I'm about ready for a fight by now. Jabbing is for sissies.

Just as soon as you can give us your formula for "absolutely without a doubt" please let the courts know. They've killed people that they absolutely had no doubt were guilty who it turns out later were framed.

I'm not against punishment for the guilty. I'm not even against Hummurabic justice. If someone knew the state was going to kill their kid if they killed mine, you can bet your patootie they'd probably keep to themselves. Don't talk to me about loving criminals; it's just outta line.

I am about principle. The principle in my mind is that if we claim to honor life and make laws that create punishments for taking life, then taking life shouldn't be used as a punishment. That's all. It's clear as diamond to me. It's painful to think that someone would continue to live while my kid was dead. But after our society has had its say, which is to say, if he survived me, I don't believe our society as any place making the decision to kill the guy on my behalf.

We seem to have come back around to more civil. I like it better this way.

[MrSlayer]

107. Fair enough.

I just found the "pal" thing to be condescending so I responded in kind. We seem to be kindred spirits if not on the same side of the issue.

I respect your principle statement, it's clear and logical, even if I don't agree.

I'm quite sure you don't love criminals, I was just tweaking you a bit.

I don't know how old you are but I'm 35 and I don't think we'll be putting the "who's meaner" thing to the test, certainly not here. Heh.

Be cool.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

123. It's funny for someone so staggeringly self-righteous and condescending

to gripe about someone else's tone. Who says irony is dead?

For the record, I am absolutely opposed to capital punishment, but the antics of the hysterical Tookie Fangurls on the site are a disgrace.

[sui generis]

125. I'm not a tookie fangurl as you put it

and irony isn't dead when an asshole can come swinging in here and comment on being self righteous and condescending as smugly as some people of lesser reading comprehension do and have.

That's a disgrace.

[QC]

132. What are you trying to say?

Honestly, I've read your post several times and can't make any sense of it. Incoherent, sputtering, spittle-flecked rage tends to make people a little hard to understand. You really need to take a break from this place, because all you seem to be capable of doing right now is screaming and calling names.

[sui generis]

134. context dear fellow

Thanks for again inviting me to leave. If you read the thread of posts, it will become more clear. Also you have to read them in the order they were written for them to make sense.

By the way, you are way behind. Slayer and Mitchum and I have already made up and moved on.

Is there anything else you'd like to add while you are grandstanding here?

Please clean your own doorstep before cleaning mine.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sui generis]

139. self delete

[Just Me]

32. THEY CHANGED!!!!! Can't you believe in a person's capacity to,...

,...CHANGE?!?!?!?!

Do you believe we are all doomed to "being bad" or "being good", until death, based upon events and behavior in the past?

I guess you have been perfect your entire life or fucked up your entire life and you will NEVER become anything other than what you were and will be only your mistakes, forever.

[MrSlayer]

65. No, I don't. Not in these cases.

The only reason they "changed" is to avoid paying the price for their crimes.

Getting god is the oldest trick in the book.

And only after the witness intimidation, escape attempt and pretending to be retarded failed did Tookie all of a sudden change. It's fraudulent and insincere. Everyone puts on their best face in prison to try and appear sympathetic.

[Just Me]

68. How do you know that? Their actions spoke louder than most's words.

I guess you are most confident in your ability to read and judge anothers' mind, heart and soul in spite of their actions to the contrary. I didn't think ANYONE had that divine and magical power.

You obviously do NOT believe in a person's "free will" or capacity to change. Do you believe in your own capacity,...to change?

[MrSlayer]

74. Because I know criminals and criminal behavior.

People will do anything to save their own lives. And people in prison always go to great lengths to show their best face as I've said. I don't believe they are sincere, not for a minute.

What actions do you speak of? What did Tucker do to convince you she changed other than pretend to have found god?

And Tookie, what about the escape attempt? The intimidation of witnesses? The trying to play himself off as mentally retarded? The refusal to debrief about the gang and really bring it to it's knees? Writing a couple of kid's books after all else has failed does not convince me that he was doing anything other than trying to save his own life. He claimed he was innocent, which is ridiculous and insulting. If he was innocent what did he have to be redeemed for? No, the whole thing was a con and a lot of people fell for it.

I do think that people can make changes in their life, I just don't believe these two did.

[Thtwudbeme]

77. You don't "know" these people; you don't have a clue.

do you at least have a clue that you sound as if you believe you are omniscient?

Please don't use "I believe" or "I know" (when clearly there is no way in hell you could) as "facts."

It just doesn't wash, and is ridiculous.

Stephanie

[MrSlayer]

86. Say what you will.

I know criminal behavior and I know the prison mindset. I know enough people who have been in prison, work in prison and I've read enough on the subject to have a pretty good idea about it. I used to hang out with these kind of people. Obviously I didn't know Tucker and Williams personally but I do know their type and enough about how their minds work and the scams they try to pull in order to garner sympathy. You're the kind of person who plays right into their hands. Naive, idealistic and good hearted. The con man loves you.

[Thtwudbeme]

88. I was a paramedic who worked on the streets for 10 years

I picked up prisoners, I took weapons away from people.

I was a crime victim, and a survivor.

Now I am in school to try to be a minister in ER.

Sounds like you know as much about me as you do the people in question.

Stephanie

[Just Me]

100. Precisely WHAT makes you an expert on criminal behavior and,...

,...prison mindset? btw I have studied both as a former attorney and clinical psychologist,...so, I expect A LOT from you to prove your ability to wage psychic abilities above everyone else.

[MrSlayer]

108. Life's experience.

Plus a lot of reading, observing, being around criminals and talking to people who are around criminals all the time. Do I need a doctorate to know what I'm talking about? I never claimed to have psychic abilities, just that I know how criminals think and the lengths they will go to to appear contrite.

[WinkyDink]

106. That works both ways, does it not?

[TankLV]

121. Everyone finds "jeebus" on their death bed.

I don't detect any sincerity in these scum of the earth's death row "conversions".

Sorry.

[WinkyDink]

98. Oddly enough, the only DU'ers calling OTHER DU'ers names

are the "Save Tookie" ones.

Note: This post is about DU'ers strictly.

[Just Me]

101. Attacking the proposition as horseshit is DISTINCT from attacking,...

,...a DUer.

Doncha' think? ;)

[WinkyDink]

104. Reading accurately is wonderful, don't you think?

Early post: "...including a few braying jackasses right here on DU."

[stepnw1f]

42. You Should Write Fiction

...for adolescents.

[MrSlayer]

67. I should.

I can probably make some good money at it.

What is your point?

[sandnsea]

54. So did our President

He laughed at the execution of Tucker, "pweeze don't kill me". He pumped his fist to get hyped for his speech announcing the Iraq invasion. He told ME terrorists to "bring it on".

So, Mr. Slayer, (interesting name in light of the topic), please tell me the difference between our supposedly civilized President and the hoards of Americans like him, and Williams and Tucker. Cuz I'm just not seeing it.

And THAT is the entire point. Those killers obviously aren't sane. WE are supposed to be.

[MrSlayer]

66. When did I defend Chimp?

I always said that mocking Tucker was unbecoming of a state leader even though she deserved what she got and I agree he is a mass murderer. The fact is that he is, right or wrong, the President. He is never going to be held to account for the shit he has done. If they were to try him I'd say he deserves the same as Tucker and Williams but they aren't going to.

Where exactly are you going with this?

[sandnsea]

69. Lots of people are the same way

One of these executions comes along, shock and awe comes along, and they snort and fart and laugh at the death of others. They don't care. So don't turn around and use that EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR as justification to execute people.

It just goes to show, the sickness is in our society. The antics of these murderers aren't really the aberrations you would wish them to be. The longer we concoct excuses for killing, the longer these sick attitudes will permeate our society, and the longer people like Williams and Tucker, and George Bush, will act out on them.

[MrSlayer]

72. Perhaps they will. I can see the difference.

I certainly wasn't laughing and enjoying the deaths of the innocent people of Iraq despite my belief in the death penalty for the guilty. It's mutually exclusive. I don't see supporting the death penalty as being equal to people who support an illegal war.

[Bill McBlueState]

3. agreed

I really like that you say, "Being opinionated about 'justice' ultimately doesn't mean jack shit."

It doesn't take anyone special to sit at their keyboard and scream for justice on an internet message board. All these people who seem to love medieval justice just go back to stuffing their faces and watching crap on TV. If they're really so horrified by killers who laugh or whatever, what are they doing about it?

Very little, I suppose.

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. Why couldn't they send those people off to do the hardest of the

hard labor or something. Digging ditches in Sadr City for example.

[rinsd]

5. The world is a worse place because of the people lost to these murderers

That said yet again, I don't believe in state sponsored execution.

[smitty]

6. Not really

Just because I oppose the death penalty doesn't mean that I have to embrace Tookie; he murdered four people and the world is slightly worse for their absence, not Tookie's.

[Just Me]

21. How many murders did he prevent, though, via his influence?

Think about it.

Apparently, he prevented far more than four by teaching others' vulnerable to gang life that, gang violence is the wrong path.

Think about it.

And, what, precisely did his death resolve? What? What?

[mitchum]

114. You're right...Mike Farrell never put on any colors

Otherwise, I don't see how you can prove that Williams dissuaded anyone else from gang life with his children's books

[fishnfla]

7. Well then you must believe that their victims are better off

Since they are not in this shitty place.

I think every time you weep for these murderers you openly mock their victims, and their fate.

[Thtwudbeme]

12. you know what, fishnfla

I am going to school to be a minister. I believe that people can and do change.

Buddhism celebrates people who undergo redemption...it is one of the most beautiful human qualities.

I was a paramedic too..and have been to murders. My God, you have no clue what agony those people go through. Neither do I.

I have also been the victim of a violent crime. I am lucky as hell my photos are splayed across DU with people hoping for the death of the person who did that.

[Dark]

96. Then you're lucky to be alive to post shit about how unfortunate it is

that the world lost two murderers. A luxury some people don't have. . .

[sui generis]

15. you can't fix a murder by murdering back

unless you live in a cave and carry a club and chase mastodons. There are other capital crimes besides murder you know.

Driving the getaway car, even if you didn't know a murder was planned or taking place. Kidnapping. Treason. Any outcome of a military tribunal, including if they felt like it, executing you for masturbation.

If you have to work to qualify when it is okay to put someone to death, you're working too hard.

[Just Me]

24. If the "victims" were witnessing his resolve to thwart gang violence,...

,...do you imagine they'd be screaming for his death? :shrug:

[Thtwudbeme]

29. Please consider

taking the quotation marks from around the word "victim."

They died horrible deaths, and deserve to be remembered differently--

Thanks much!

Stephanie

[Just Me]

37. No, because I have BEEN a "victim" rather than lived as a "victim".

I believe all those who have been victimized would completely understand why I place quotation marks around the word V-I-C-T-I-M. I don't mean to be unruly. I'm just sayin', there is a place to operate beyond victimhood. :hug:

[Thtwudbeme]

46. Thanks for the clarification-

and thanks for posting on my thread.

The DP makes me feel horrible: I feel like I have blood on my hands.

[Just Me]

60. It's on the hands who advocate it.

Few former, healthy "victims" advocate an eye for an eye or a life for a life. Very few. Life is far bigger and greater and beautiful without a bunch of blind and dead people, if ya' know what I mean. :hug:

[mondo joe]

8. I don't miss either of them, but I think the world is worse whenever

the state executes its citizens.

I did not call for clemency for Tookie, but I remain opposed to the death penalty.

[Aretha]

9. We're going to be poorer still soon

With the loss of Clarence Ray Allen and John Nixon ... Oh, the tragedy ... actually, speaking of John B. Nixon, his case is actually kind of a close one for clemency (it was denied four days ago). This John (E.) Nixon:

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/p/joe_nixon.htm?iam=metaresults&terms=life+on+bader

Is much more deserving of the death penalty.

[mattclearing]

13. "Being opinionated about 'justice' ultimately doesn't mean jack shit."

Ain't that the truth.

And yet, this idiotic death penalty flame war continues. :D

[sui generis]

17. it ain't no flame war. There's us enlightened people who get

that it's absurd and wrong to punish murder with a murder, and the rest of the cavemen who somehow got here.

I'm not pulling any punches. In jail is as good as dead when it comes to serving PUBLIC SAFETY. The only difference between killing prisoners to save costs and serve public safety is some yahoo's idea that it's our RIGHT to kill people if we can find a good enough reason. Maybe we'll be bitching when they have the death penalty for being liberal and whining that now they've gone too far.

I'm not afraid to be judgemental. If I really believe that killing people is wrong, then I can't condone US doing it to a criminal, any more than I could condone any other social barbarism.

[Aretha]

25. You're not afraid to be judgmental

and you're apparently not afraid to be wrong either.

"In jail is as good as dead when it comes to serving PUBLIC SAFETY."

Clarence Ray Allen had three innocent people murdered while in prison for murder. Now, the only question is, do you have the spine to admit when you're wrong?

[sui generis]

34. oh no you di'int

look missy, you don't accuse me of not having spine - it gets messy there.

So I'll generously let that pass. Go read the posts up top. Answer me what you think we should do about when we execute an innocent person. Then get back to me.

Homework assignment #2: if there is a problem with jails and jail safety, then propose a solution that doesn't involve killing the prison population. There are plenty of people in there NOT for murder who end up committing murder too eventually. Your logic means that we should execute absolutely everyone who MIGHT commit murder, including non-murderers.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[mattclearing]

122. Good to know you get my point.

I'm anti-death penalty too, but at some point, y'all are going to realize that arguing about it here is a waste of time, and makes us all look bad.

None of you are scoring points...just irritating each other and everyone else. Give it a rest.

[sui generis]

130. what's all this "we the rest of DU" crap?

do you really think this is a playground at recess and there are people taking votes?

I'm sorry, I know it's irritating but the first response to the OP was also irritating. I sure don't feel like this is a constructive conversation any more, but I don't think I need to be emotionally dishonest about the way I feel either.

It should be pretty clear that I'm not representing anyone here but myself, and this ain't no popularity contest. I could care less if you like me for my opinions or not, or if you (all of the collective "you" that everyone seems to personally speak for) like me at all.

I'll let it go - but don't pull the bullshit "we" card on me unless you can prove there's a consensus.

[mattclearing]

135. I didn't say we.

I just said it makes us look bad. You're the one who said that you were in the "enlightened" camp.

I'd like us all to agree to disagree. Somewhere Karl Rove is smiling. There's got to be a better use of our time.

[sui generis]

137. fair enough

I was being droll but such spoken conversational subtlety is lost here. It's odd how quickly people pick up the side of the "underdog" when they perceive someone is being supercilious.

When I say "my unassailable opinion on these matters and I am unanimous in this" I am being self mocking, but some people don't get it and just go on autopilot attack. I guess they really are that insecure, or maybe I should use more smilies but . . .

but then they lash out with the right hook and Karl Rove better order some popcorn.

I'm not here for Karl Rove. I'm here because I have an opinion - but it also tweaks my nerves to rejoice at the death of another human for any reason. That's all. I use colorful language. That's me. Babylonsister clocked me but good and I deserved it, but she did it with a smile because she also understands hypberbole.

Yes we disagree. After enough disagreement, the fed takes a nearly unbelievable amount of tax dollars from me & Other Mr. Sui every year, starts unjust wars, removes my right to marry the person I love, ignores Katrina, campaigns for republicans, shoots Iraqi civilians, and puts people to death 26 years after they are sentenced, and has no good answers for mistakes.

Yes, oh boy do we disagree. I'm just tired of "going along" for the ride. That's how we got here. Anyway, will tone it down since I'm apparently pissing off even people who don't hate me already.

[Just Me]

19. In all sincerity, I must agree.

It's ashame that they were exiled to oblivion just when they were making a difference to society.

Their deaths solved ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

[rasputin1952]

22. About the DP; just what does someone who had nothing

to do with the case, the murders, the survivors, the judge, the jury, have to really add to the situation?

Just asking...:)

Did society as a whole become any safer? Wasn't society safe when these individuals were behind bars?

There is an argument that states that "The perpetrator can't kill again", sure, but he can't while kept behind bars either. Point is, society is protected when murderers are put away.

Carla Faye Tucker was on some pretty serious stuff when she committed her crime. When she had come down, and years after that, she felt remorse for her actions and did a 180 degree turn, and aided others in prison and out of prison. This individual had made a remarkable turn in her life. I will say that those who were murdered by her, left this world a lesser place, but did society or the legal system have to take her life as well? More for the body count I suppose.

Some people do change, many do not. I think that we as a society should show that there is some value in those that do change. Perhaps Carla Faye should have spent the rest of her life in prison for what she had done; but to simply add another body to an already horrific scenario just isn't right. Will it bring back those who were lost? Will it change what had happened in any way?

The DP exists because we want to have a semi-legitimate way to justify our pursuit of revenge. When we are honest with ourselves, we can see that we only wish to consummate our own lust for blood.

We all have different reasons for the way we look at this whole situation of the DP. We all know it is not a deterrent, after all, if it were, there would be no murders. We all know it cannot change the path already taken, once the deed is done, we cannot go back and undo it. We all know that occasionally, an innocent individual has been a victim of the DP. So I ask, once the perpetrator is behind bars, for life, without the possibility of parole, (unless irrefutable evidence comes to bear to prove innocence), why would we demand for them to die?

I ask this simply as a member of DU, a place where we are all supposedly in favor of progress.

[Just Me]

27. Ya' see,...that's where I get hung up. Don't we believe in our capacity,.

,...to change? I thought we ALL held that fundamental belief: a belief in an individual's power to exercise free will and CHANGE. I really did. Obviously, I was wrong. Dead wrong.

[xchrom]

26. no death penalty

[mitchum]

41. WWCD? (What Would Che Do?)...

I believe he would have had both of those murderous dirtbags executed as enemies of the people. The history is certainly there.
Another reason that I am a Leftist, not a liberal.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[sui generis]

53. oh wow a mental giant

clearly capable of brilliant rejoinder.

That was a gem. I think I'll keep you.

[mitchum]

55. Hey, YOU threw down the filth gauntlet

I can't really help it if I topped you, can I now? It's a gift.
And you are the one demonstrating an ignorance of the meaning of terms.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[mitchum]

111. My apologies

I was completely out of line
Despite evidence to the contrary, I am a fairly decent guy most of the time.

[sui generis]

57. sorry thtwudbeme

I saw the bullies circling on the playground and I needed some exercise anyway.

[Thtwudbeme]

59. It's emotional, isn't it.

but, that's OK....I just have felt sick about the DP for so many years.

I really admire people who have the guts to change. Apparently it doesn't mean much in this society, eh.

It's just sad-

This is a sad, sick country, with horrible values.

[Just Me]

61. No. It involves logic and morals and ethics.

The DP is NOT logical or moral or ethical.

Studies have PROVEN that the DP fails to reduce crime and violence. As a matter of fact, those states and countries advancing DP show significant INCREASE in violent crimes. SO MUCH FOR LOGIC.

On a moral and ethical level, revenge and killing HAS NEVER BEEN EMBRACED BY ANY ADVANCE CULTURE. To the contrary, modern ethical and moral cultures embrace human potential and reject barabaric notions of raw emotional expressions of vengeance.

I'm just sayin', the pro-DP stance is FAR FAR AND AWAY more emotionally, weak emotionally fueled than the anti-DP stand.

[sui generis]

62. I just think if we dispense any kind of "justice" based

on moral authority, we had better not be hypocritical about it.

Still nobody is answering the question about killing an innocent death row inmate. Isn't THAT telling. Running around like a couple of greased watermelons in a downhill race. Oh well, it's quite enlightening for me actually. Two weeks ago I would probably have been arguing for the death penalty here, but I just can't process it any more, maybe because I just thought all the way through and asked myself what my real values were.

I remembered that Matthew Shepard's father was pro DP and at the last possible moment asked them not to seek the DP. I had to wonder what pain he had to go through to stick to principle over gratification, and whether I would be able to do that myself. And I was able to answer yes to that question. I am better than the person who harms me or mine. I'm not going to be like them and claim that I am better. And the other issue for me is that it's profoundly disturbing to think that we as a society might put an innocent man or woman to death and say, woops, gosh darn, too bad.

Because we certainly have in the past and I can't imagine that we won't again in the future. How do you justify that?

[Texasgal]

71. I think the real issue here...

Is that people here cannot reasonably talk about the death penalty without the sharp attacks.

I am "enlightened" and I am not a "blood luster".... but it makes it REAL hard to discuss my stance without fellow Dem's attacking me for it.

With that said, I'll stay out of this flame-fest.

[MrSlayer]

82. I find the smug superiority to be amusing.

The insults, implying that I'm stupid or a barbarian or a freeper, it's all amusing to me. The fact that we would agree on almost any other issue means nothing to them. I just get a kick out of it. Besides you're almost invisible here if you don't take a contrary position or aren't in one of the cliques and I like to talk to people.

[Thtwudbeme]

84. Actually, the only person I have seen on this thread that is "smug"

is you.

You seem to truly believe you are omniscient.

I find your beliefs about yourself, and your perceived abilities more disturbing that your thoughts on the DP.

Stephanie

[MrSlayer]

91. Really?

I'm just trying to tell you how these people think based on a lot of study. I certainly have no godlike abilities, at least not in this matter. Heh.

[sui generis]

85. it's okay Slayer, I've been called a few things here too

recently, as I recall. Smug superiority looks fabulous on all of us in this season's colors . . .

;)

[MrSlayer]

97. Haha! Yes, it does.

I don't know if anyone escapes it. B-)

[babylonsister]

90. I got into it a few nights ago; it's not my turn, so

I'm staying out of it also. :)

[sui generis]

99. I'm off to bed, up at 4:00 a.m. for sparring

and then I'll be back to inflict my unassailable perfection on everyone again tomorrow.

:rofl: sometimes I amuse even myself, and I am unanimous in this. Plus Other Mr. Sui is trying to close my laptop right now . . . :hi:

[babylonsister]

103. Sleep well, and BTW, I'm

one of those "braying DU jackasses". :hi:

[sui generis]

129. deleted w/comment

deleted - I give up.

We all got into a button pushing contest - all we can each do is be true to ourselves and try not to hurt anyone else. That's mostly why we're all here, I hope, and not on that other website.

[Fescue4u]

80. And its MUCH worse with his legacy the Crips still active

To bad he didnt nothing to help the police dismantle them.

I know that Tookie is a Hero to many people here, but I see him as a stain on humanity.

The world would have been a much better place had he been aborted in the womb.

[sui generis]

81. it's not about heroism - that's a strawman assertion

it's about the principles of using the death penalty to punish causing a death. It's not even about Tookie at all, actually.

[Fescue4u]

87. Not about Tookie. Not about heroism

Thats a convient assertion in a thread titled

"I think the world is a slightly worse place without Tookie, and Karla Faye"

And that contains the phrase:

...."I wonder if all of the people that were pleased by his death are going to pick up the torch and carry it "...


Yes. It is about Tookie. Yes it is about Tookie idolization

...Unless of course you really think that Tookie was responsible carrying around a stick with burning rags on the end of it in prison.

[sui generis]

89. there were one or two posts between here and there

but that's okay. How's it hangin' Fescue? I can assure you nothing I've said in the last 500 posts I've done had anything to do with Tookie idolization, and you have it from the mouth of the horse.

I guess if there was an easy answer we would all agree that it was wrong to kill someone for killing someone. Oh wait, that was the easy answer.

:P

[Fescue4u]

94. peace..

I take you at your word.

I have no fault with opponents of the DP. Heck while I relunctantly support it, there are many aspects to it that trouble me, and I would welcome reform in the DP.

But the folks that come across as Tookie groupies (to borrow a cheap phrase), well thev've gotten on my last nerve...

[LincolnMcGrath]

109. Bill Bennett agrees, abort all black babies and crime will go down.

And after all, we know the 'black' gangs were the first to ever exist here in the USA.



Just Sayin...

[LittleClarkie]

92. Where is the protest for John Nixon?

Where is his campaign for clemency?

Where are the celebrities.

Does a person have to live in California and write children's books to get attention?

Woe to those who live out of the spotlight.

[Thtwudbeme]

95. I know.

The whole thing makes me sad.

You are correct of course.

Thank you for this post-

Stephanie

[Dark]

93. I think it is slightly better, so we'll just have to disagree. n/t

[lonestarnot]

102. Without nuts sluts, whores, murderers, theives retards and catknappers

the world would be a boring place. The world needs them for scapegoats, entertainment, the economy and whatever else.

[Gregorian]

105. That is exactly what I was thinking about.

Thank you.

And I've seen some very intelligent, creative people who think the death penalty is justified. Well I don't.

And furthermore, I want to take it another step further. Let us assume that everyone is unique and has something to offer. I feel that Tookie took something with him to his death. Something left with him. Something good left with him.

What do we have to prove here? That people are bad? And that they will always be bad? And that they have absolutely nothing to offer?

I can think of a thousand ways that people can change.

Life is taking a chance. I also believe that some chances aren't worth taking. Common sense tells us when someone is no longer a risk.

I can't do it justice. I know what I want to say. Fearful idiots. Lack of common sense. Valuing a human, regardless of their past. Being peaceful. Knowing when it's ok to let someone begin again. I even think we could spend money to chaparone certain people in a public setting. Let the Tookies be in society. The alternative is death, and revenge, and pain for everyone except those who enjoy the benefits of the incarcerated and executed.

Our actions reverberate. I believe in making waves in a new direction. They're doing it in India. And it is working. Murderers befriending the very families of those whom they've killed. Believe it.

[TankLV]

116. I think the world is a slightly better place WITHOUT "tookie" in it

to cause killings and murder and pain and suffering anymore.

Carla is resting in peace perhaps.

[Bridget Burke]

124. But--nobody in Texas has been murdered since Karla died!

Oops, I'm wrong.

Well, I'm sure that California will be murder-free from here on out!

[Loonman]

127. Academic, navel gazing type of argument

I don't see how this line of thought is constructive.

[Thtwudbeme]

128. I wasn't trying to be constructive

I genuinely think the US is a worse place for having the DP.

Where in the world did you see anything other than "emotional musing" in my post?

[Avalux]

140. Locking.

The thread has become a flamefest. Sorry.