Father Andrew Greeley: Let's Give the Holidays Back to the Pagans

[No Exit]

Let's give the holidays back to the pagans

My opinion Andrew M. Greeley

Tucson, Arizona | Published: 12.13.2005

A long time ago, a very wise teen told me she thought it was a shame Christmas came during the holidays. She had a point.
I've often thought that the ancient church made a mistake when it tried to convert the Roman feast of the Saturnalia (or Lupercalia as it was also called) into the celebration of the birthday of Jesus. It didn't quite work.
In Britain, for example, from Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" to Dylan Thomas' "A Child's Christmas in Wales," there is not the slightest mention of Jesus.
When I watch folks pummel one another as they fight their way toward Wal-Mart's bargains, I'm not sure all that much is left of Bethlehem and the Holy Family and the angels and the shepherds and the magi — nor of the love for one another that Christmas should sustain.

(snip)

http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/dailystar/106660.php

[CatholicEdHead]

1. I have seen Fr Greeley bashed at other sites

The Rev. Andrew M. Greeley, a Catholic priest, teaches at the University of Chicago and the University of Arizona. Contact him at [e-mail].

they are more "tradionlist" Catholic ones (e.g. Catholic World News). They bashed him by writing to the factual history. This of course goes against the history of the RCC in recruiting more converts. Telling the entire background and history of dogmas makes many in the church uncomfortable.

[leftchick]

2. I Love Father Greeley

He always has wise words in times of insanity.

For more check out his web site...http://www.agreeley.com/

[StellaBlue]

19. thanks for the link!

I am now, as an ex-Catholic, really enjoying his webpage! And I just found out that my mom has read all his books! haha

[leftchick]

20. I have read a lot of his books

but not all. It is hard to keep up! I am still a practicing Catholic and find refuge from the conservatives in my midst with Fr. Greeley.

:)

[Radio_Lady]

21. This is a delicious article which I wouldn't have seen otherwise.

Thanks for the link, from a totally secular woman!

Afterthought: I believe that Christ was actually born in the springtime -- May or June? I think we learned that when we visited Israel.

[rd_kent]

3. It's refreshing to see a religious leader

who speaks the truth!!! wish they all did that. Wait, arent they SUPPOSED to speak the truth. Isnt lying a sin?

4. Kind of an insult to Pagan holidays

The pagans were celebrating life and the change of seasons, nothing to do with Wal-Mart. Mr. Greely - so superior to "pagans".

[and-justice-for-all]

18. After all...

Christiandom did highjack ALL the Pagan holidays, there is not one thing in Christianity thats original..They raped every other religion for their own benefit, they have no idea when Jesus was born either.

[Radio_Lady]

22. See my post. I thought I heard an Israeli guide tell us Christ was born

in the springtime -- May or June. Do any of you recall this?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

24. I've heard Springtime and September...

Springtime makes more sense to me.... shepherds stay with the flocks in the spring (lambing), but on another thread someone said September... I don't know, but I sure wasn't December!

[Radio_Lady]

25. Yes, that's right. If you "Google" Jesus real birthdate, you get lots

of links trying to prove either at springtime or harvest time (September).

Definitely not in December, and not in the snow, either. Bethlehem has a very warm climate with some palm trees, although not wet enough to have coconut palms. At least, that's what little kids tell themselves when they live in Florida and have no chimneys -- or cold weather! As a former Floridian from age 4, we used to make a paste of "Ivory Snow" soap and water, and put it on a palm tree -- there were no spruce or evergreens like "up North"!

[jbnow]

31. The September comes in part

from astrology/astronomy. What was so unique that it would send the magi looking for this child? The magi were astrologers, so you look to the skies at that time and then add in the other clues.

28. That's right, Christians took pagan holidays and

rewrapped them as their own. History is so twisted.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Read the whole thing. Father Greeley does NOT insult the pagans.

So maybe we should move the birthday of Jesus out of the holidays and celebrate it with the Festival of the Magi on Jan. 6 as did the Greeks in the church of long ago. Then we solve the problem of what to say this time of the year. Having given the holidays back to the pagans, we could wish one another a "Festive Lupercalia" or even a "Fertile Saturnalia."

The tree could revert to its old pagan title of the Tannenbaum, the sacred fir tree of the Teutonic tribes, the passionate tree that unites heaven and Earth in love and brings down the warm spring rains necessary for life to continue on this planet.....

The gift exchange at Christmas — however often blighted by human weakness — represents the intense love that should flourish this time of the year. The darkness-turning-into-light spirit of the season would be best reflected by respect for the traditions of others, majority and minority.

42. It seems to me that he is

identifying what the pagan holidays were and their correct names and purpose, however he is still saying "give the holidays back to the pagans", as if he himself feels the Christians aren't getting what they want out of it, so here - you can have it back pagans.

Why even mention the pagans? Why not just say separate Christmas from Christ because it has nothing really to do with Christ.

[Bridget Burke]

43. Please, interpret him as you wish.

And I'll do the same.

[applegrove]

5. Looks interesting - thanks for posting!

[applegrove]

29. Okay - he was being sarcastic at the start. More promising in he teaser

protion. I'm guessing this article is for a religious audience and not for me.

[leveymg]

6. There isn't much left of Bethlehem anyway, these days.

That's light in the sky isn't a star or an angel. It's an incoming IAF airstrike. The shepherd blew himself up, and the Magi are being held by the CIA without charges at an undisclosed location in Albania.

Greeley's right. Give it all back to Wall*Mart.

[mmonk]

7. I agree with Fr. Greeley,

It will put the "war on Christmas" charade to bed.

[AX10]

8. The "War on Christmas" charade has to end, now.

Thank You Fr. Greeley.

[FreedomAngel82]

16. Hear hear

All of them are so worried about whether or not someone says "Merry Christmas" to you. What about what the season is supposed to mean? Peace, good will towards men, helping someone, sharing etc. It's all ridiculous. Christmas isn't the same for everyone. Oh and if you do speak up the truth and aren't lock step in center you do get bashed and told horrible things. I know that one all too well. I'm glad more are speaking out about this phoney "war." The fundies are all about playing victim. One day they might be in trouble and who will believe them? Just like the boy who cried "wolf" all the time.

[No Exit]

23. Want a good laugh?

My relatives in St. Augustine told me that the St. Augustine city council or commission, or whatever governing body they have, had a solemn vote in which they declared that a CHRISTMAS TREE must be called a CHRISTMAS TREE. And it may not be called anything else.

What's even odder is gonna be when, starting Dec. 26, I once again drive through my OWN suburb and see all those holy symbols of Jesus' birth lying in the gutter next to the curb.

[xchrom]

9. bashing each other at walmart

isn't what the pagans wanted either.

[Joe Chi Minh]

10. But where are your canons proscribing such behaviour?

[xchrom]

15. i'm an episcopalian -- we believe in excessive drinking,

men in dressess leading parades with burning purses.

and we bash each other at barney's new york, when it's on sale.

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. Is a burning purse a metaphor for a thurible?

Or is it a reference to shopaholicism? I think "purse" is the US equivalent of a handbag in UK parlance.

[xchrom]

32. you had it right the first time.

and actually it has it's roots in old tallullha bankhead and the pope joke.

though -- in reality gay men LOVE to swing that damn thing.

[Joe Chi Minh]

34. Dressing up also tends to appeal to

right-wing type, monied worldlings; it's mainly a monied-classes thing, it has always seemed to me.

Christ was very dismissive of that particular foible, and you'd have thought the Church would have "got it" by now. But clothes signify honour, so while clericalism prevails, it is consistent.

[Gormy Cuss]

33. and to think some Episcopalians used to call themselves

"God's Frozen People."

:D

[xchrom]

36. you know -- we had a bad reputation of drinking sherry on the rocks --

it wasn't true.

[Gormy Cuss]

38. But sherry neat and cigars were the alt sacramental offerings IIRC

:beer:
Anglicans do believe in drinking.
:toast:

[xchrom]

40. lol -- damn if they don't...

what would a vestry meeting be without the ''sherry'' hour preceeding it?

[roguevalley]

11. We'll take them back. :) Andrew Greeley is a true mensch.,

[madrchsod]

12. Greeley writes the truth

i always enjoy his insights into the world around us

[msongs]

13. most xmas concepts including jesus predate the christian era nt

[Plaid Adder]

14. Seriously.

Now this is what I'm talking about. The Christmas that these people are trying to "take back" is, IMHO, a nightmare most of us would really just as soon do without. I like the trees, the ornaments, the roast turkey, and some--SOME--of the music. The presents thing--it's like the arms race. You can't stop buying shit because you know nobody else will stop buying shit and then you'll be embarrassed cause you don't have shit for people who are giving you shit. If only someone would come out and just declare a moratorium on the whole goddamn thing, I think we would all be relieved.

Hang on, I feel a poll coming on.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[FreedomAngel82]

17. I agree

I love the time of year because of what the holiday means to me and my family. Spending time with each other and stuff. I love shopping for familly and seeing them happy. One of my favorite family photo's is a picture of my grandfather on Christmas when I was a tyke and he recieved a portable radio (an old fashioned kind that still works!) and he was so happy and excited. I just love that right there. Not whether or not someone says a phrase to me or a certain gadget.

[PsychoDad]

46. You like the celebration...

For the sake of celebration, not the commercialism.

That's what it's all about anymore. buy, buy, buy. The Christmas season is one of the most stressful due to the rush and need to buy presents.

When I became a muslim, I stopped "celebrating" Christmas with all the trappings, no more mistletoe, tree, hymns or buying presents... and you know, giving up that last bit has made this one of the most peaceful times of the year. Mind you, i still enjoy looking at pagan inspired christmas trees and pagan inspired christmas music, it's all very beautiful and uplifting.

Now I give my presents to friends and family at Eid, no more fighting for parking space or waiting in long lines for presents at Wal-Mart. I can now meditate upon the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and the message on the day popularly ascribed to his birth and enjoy the trappings of the season without any pressure or rush.. And I find that very enjoyable.

Maybe the first action in winning the "war on Christmas" is to lose all the commercialism.

Peace.

[donheld]

26. Sounds good to me

Let's do it.

[bobbieinok]

27. this great GKChesterton quote was a motto in one of Greeley's

books

'Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.'

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. Perfect. Some of Chesterton's insights are so penetrating,

when you first read or here them, they take your breath away.

[Bridget Burke]

39. I've always liked his "Christmas Poem"

This world is wild as an old wife's tale,
And strange the plain things are,
The earth is enough and the air is enough
For our wonder and our war;
But our rest is as far as the fire-drake swings
And our peace is put in impossible things
Where clashed and thundered unthinkable wings
Round an incredible star.

Read the rest here: www.dur.ac.uk/martin.ward/gkc/books/christmas-poem.html

(Of course, "Lepanto" is my favorite.)

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. Yes, that's really beautiful. He was a great one for paradoxes,

which often convey the deeepest truths. My favourite poem of his, is "The Donkey", though I have my own slightly garbled version, with some of the words in the wrong order! It's the ultimate expression of defiance to the World and all its works.

41. self delete posted wrong spot

[Vidar]

44. Greeley is great.

[Iris]

45. I love this man.