One reason we lose elections. Denying the existence of God.

[onehandle]

Forget Rove. Forget Diebold. Forget Corporations.

An ad for this link popped up at many left-leaning blogs and other sites this week.

The vast majority of Americans believe in God. This being associated with us does not help.

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

If I had a blog, I would see this ad as counterproductive and block it.

What the Hell good can come from this?

Ad at Eschaton, Democratic Underground, etc:

[Atman]

1. Hoo boy!

:popcorn:

[sojourner]

5. mind if i join you?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[donheld]

116. Scoot over

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::beer:

[sojourner]

144. LOL!

[Jawja]

179. Me Too!

:hide: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :beer:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

169. Hey! How's everyone doing?

:popcorn: :popcorn: :beer:

[LeftHander]

180. I saw god on myspace...

He's 19, and living in the UK

His beard looked a little fake the last time I saw him....

[mediaman007]

234. With our luck, we'll pick the wrong One!

[Canuckistanian]

2. ..

:popcorn:

[BOHICA06]

3. Bingo .....

...and we make fun of those that do believe. Great way to capture votes.

[Warpy]

15. 'Scuse me, speak for yourself

Belief is a very individual thing, as is unbelief.

Given the pervasive nature of Christianity in this country, I'd think most of us would find an alternative refreshing, or at least not shy away from it.

We live in a pluralist society. There are different beliefs as well as differences on a continuum of belief, ranging from the zealots in every belief system on one end to total nonbelievers on the other.

Foregoing an ad because it might upset some Christian with a persecution complex is not the way to go. Foregoing a Chrsitan ad because it might upset an unbeliever who is sick of all the Christian material being pushed all over the place is not a way to go, either.

Grownups know how to deal with people who may not follow them in lockstep. I would hope most of the people on this board are grown up enough to tolerate beliefs or unbeliefs they don't agree with.

[onehandle]

36. How does this further our political agenda?

We don't want a Christian government. This makes us look like we want an Anti-Christian Government.

[Moochy]

42. Maybe to a closed minded christian n/t

[pocket]

114. that's kind of redundant :)

.

[SPKrazy]

149. There ya go!

Even with the smile :)

It isn't clear if you are smiling because you think it is funny, or because you are joking?

:shrug:

[BeTheChange]

215. Ill answer that one for you..

it's because they thought they made a funny.

Cause it is so funny to stereotype and paint with broad brushes.

Didnt you get the memo?

[Warpy]

47. Only if you've got a light switch mentality

Which some people do have. We are not going to reach them with anything but full out, Dominionist theocracy. Screw that and screw them and screw anybody who thinks we need to cave to them.

I think we can win more by being inclusive. Let them have their snotty little Evangelical, screw the poor, worship the rich, and don't ever read anything but Leviticus club.

Sure they're going to lie about us. They already do and that's not going to stop. However, grownups will know they are lying and will respond accordingly.

If you want a Christian Democratic Party, go start one. I prefer the Democratic Party that includes everyone.

[onehandle]

54. I am not saying don't attack Christians.

(Crazy ones like Falwell etc that is)

I am saying that fighting Any Religion is counterproductive.

And THAT is EXACTLY what this film is about.

I don't want a Christian anything.

[Telly Savalas]

137. Is that film running for office?

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

61. So those are our only choices? Christian and anti-Christian?

Sounds like "if you're not with us, you're against us." Where have I heard that before?

Whether or not they hold a belief in God, most people in this country don't care what others believe. Only a minority - a viscious, vocal and ever-more-powerful minority, but a minority nonetheless - want to impose their own beliefs on everyone else. By characterizing nonbelievers as anti-believers, you are helping contribute to their political agenda.

[onehandle]

66. Bull! We are chasing away moderates.

Moderates view this fight as "wacko".

We are never going to win that minority you mention. We need the others.

[Warren Stupidity]

77. Your thesis is silly.

Go ahead and prove that moderate voters are being chased away from voting Democratic because leftwing blogs run ads promoting atheist viewpoints.

Oh I know, I'm having a reading comprehension problem again, right?

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

79. I don't see a "we" anywhere in what you're talking about

Moderates view _both sides_ of this fight as wacko. By supporting its premise with your nonbeliever = antibeliever stance, you are supporting the rabid minority.

[Common Sense Party]

170. I agree. Moderates think BOTH sides are a bit nuts.

I'm pretty much in the middle. I'm a Christian, pretty devout, and it's important to me. But I don't want a theocracy; I believe in a secular government, with elected officals who espouse decent values and demonstrate good ethics and integrity--regardless of their faith (or lack thereof).

I think the far-right zealots damage their cause with their fanaticism...as do the anti-Christian, radical secularists, the ones who say "all Christians are redneck, homophobe, racist, selfish morons." Insulting me for my beliefs (1) won't get me to change my beliefs, and (2) won't endear you to me, nor entice me to join your side, even if we agree on many issues. Either side engaging in the ad hominems and the stereotyping are in serious need of remedial Dale Carnegie training.

Neither extreme carries any credibility with moderates. We reject the lot of 'em.

[Warpy]

81. No, this is BULLYING minorities

You sure you want that? You sure you want to cram Jesus down the throat of everyone on DU so you can maybe get some fundy to vote Dem? Good luck on that one. In the meantime, you'll alienate a hell of a lot of people on this board and off it.

This country was founded on laws, and people were given protections in the Bill of Rights so that no majority could push a minority around. If this were a popular notion, it wouldn't be needed.

Sorry if some Christians want to bully everybody on DU into pretending that Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Shintoists, Animist, and yes, even athiests don't exist so that some fictional Christian "moderates" won't have their persecution complexes triggered.

It doesn't work that way in this country.

[annabanana]

120. !

yup

[Warren DeMontague]

189. My Hero

:thumbsup: :yourock: :thumbsup:

[Warren DeMontague]

186. Uh Huh. Meanwhile, the right wing courts people who want to criminalize

the birth control pill, and who want a 6,000 year old Earth and Dinosaurs on Noah's ark taught as SCIENCE...

Yet we stand up for the CONSTITUTIONAL Separation of Church and State, and we're 'wacko God-haters'.

'Scuse me while I :puke:

Really, your whole thesis sounds to me like a total fucking rehash of the crap certain people were peddling after the election- you know, "we" need to dump the Gay rights people, "We" need to stop being so adamant about reproductive rights, "We" need to sprinkle gratuitous references to Jesus into our politics...

All in effort to win over these elusive 'values voters' who -NEWS FLASH- aren't gonna vote for us ANYWAY.

Here's a contrasting idea; how about we run some folks who unapologetically stand up for a SPHC system, getting our troops out of iraq, and the right of consenting adults to do whatever the fuck they want with their own bodies, no matter how much it may piss off the prudes, busybodies, and control freaks across the political spectrum- and we will WIN OVER a helluva lot more progressive-libertarian urban voters than we're ever going to get endlessly chasing after Ma and Pa "Them Demon-crats Hate God" Kettle.

[fishwax]

95. I don't think it makes us look like we want an anti-christian government

:shrug:

unless you buy into the fundy bullshit that anything other than their old-testament interpretation of the bible is automatically anti-christian.

[Finder]

98. We want a SECULAR government. n/t

[Marnieworld]

124. no it doesn't

it makes it that we want the government from the constitution. James Madison and Jefferson's government.

[FreedomAngel82]

132. I don't even want

a Christian government and I'm a Christian. I don't want the fundies to dictate everyone's lives. We were blessed with freewill for a purpose. To choose to believe in a religion or not.

[MODemocrat]

150. FreedomAngel, you said that so well

That's just how I feel about Christianity; Everyone has their right to believe however they choose, without any interference. :thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

198. I suppose you're against taking any stand that might make us unpopular?

Whine with me:

Oh no!

The sheep won't like us anymore!!!

Let's abandon every cause that might upset someone!!!

Off the bus, atheists!

You too, GLBT people!

Screw the big tent, we want to be liked by everyone!




Please.

I'm so sick of weak people.

If you think that people will read that ad and decide to vote for the repukes, you've got serious problems.

[BeTheChange]

216. Big tent my ass!

If it was a big tent we wouldnt have constant arguements over religion on a political forum between people who are liberal just not nonreligious.

Those that are religious are often called sheep, closeminded, fairy tale believers.. yadda yadda yadda..

You talk about how you dont like weak people.. well lets all stop being weak and keep our cards firmly on the table. Dont get all willy nilly when someone calls out the antireligion bigots that do indeed effect the votes of moderates.

Let's just be real and stick to it. A good percentage of the people that call themselves liberal, democrat and progressive on these boards have some serious issues with anyone that believes in God and that is a fact. We can dress it up and back away from it.. say it aint so when it is put underscrutiny.. yadda yadda.. but it's not fooling anyone. And those of us that are religious, most of the time, we shut up because we acknowledge that alot of things have been done in the name of religion that plain out suck. And we know that our religion is liberal, it is progressive. Most of us are liberal and progressive BECAUSE of our faith, not inspite of it... but we turn the other cheek when we see the constant sarcastic posts about Churches, Christians, Christmas, Jesus, etc... because what good does it do? Bigots are bigots on either side of the aisle so you pick up what you have in common and you push the rest aside.

I love my God. Im tired of pushing that love aside to deal with people that constantly feel the need to demean those that think the way I do, but may not always act as "Liberally" or "progressively" as I do.

Especially when they decide to back peddle on their bigotry.

[Yollam]

123. Sorry, didn't see the "Made by the Democratic Party" label on that film...

Are you confusing the democratic party with progressives?

[SPKrazy]

147. How about: "there are those who make fun of those who believe"

rather than "we" make fun of those that believe.

[Warren DeMontague]

183. Really? And how does "Stop denying the existence of God"

show ANY FUCKING RESPECT for those of us who don't believe?

Oh, I'm sorry- I forgot. Respect is a one way street.

[electropop]

What existence?

It's like denying the "existence" of the Tooth Fairy, except that there is more evidence, in my experience, for the existence of the Tooth Fairy.

My point being, I don't like being held to the presumptive "existence" of somebody else's supernatural beings, and if I don't happen to believe in them, I am not allowed to say it? Why is it that only "Christians" are allowed to say what they believe?

[BOHICA06]

10. Because if you want to win elections ...

...you have to kiss the majority's a$$!! And not poke a stick in their eye.

[radio4progressives]

17. don't have to poke a stick in there eye? how about leaving this subject

OUT of politics ALL TOGETHER?

[electropop]

24. There used to be a First Amendment which had an Establishment Clause.

There used to be a Constitutional ban on religious tests for officeholders. Now every candidate has to pass a religious test.

Merging church and state does terrible damage to both.

[BOHICA06]

39. It's far less merged that it once was ...

but atheists, scientologists, Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims are still unelectable for national office.

[BOHICA06]

30. That's practical, but it isn't

kissing butt, which is what is required.

Remember, Lips can be washed, but four more years of Repukes will seem like forever.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

94. I second that!

Complete separation of Church and State. Just like the Founders said.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

48. I see. We have to change our position to kowtow to religious idiots.

The only we we can win is by becoming as braindead and close-minded as those who are ruining our country?

That is PRECISELY WHY WE ARE LOSING. Look at Hillary. case in point.

[BOHICA06]

63. Major voting block ... you bet

kowtow, appease, mollify, placate .... pretend they're organized labor or an 800 pound gorilla - they sleep where they want to, just make sure its with you.

[Warren DeMontague]

191. Seig Heil.

That's the kind of governance you get by "Kissing the majority's ass".

You'll excuse me if I don't.

[soleft]

4. I know, Kerry was such a bastard to flaunt his atheism

[Vektor]

207. Hahahaha

That godless sex machine! Grrrroooowwwww!

[Democrats_win]

6. It's important to set the record straight: God YES, God + politics= NO!

It's bad for the soul to mix them.

[katinmn]

7. There's something about their faces that creeps me out!

That ad screenshot is a perfect example. There is NOTHING behind the eyes (that we'd want to see anyhow).

God does not belong in politics.

[Big Kahuna]

8. Have you actually seen the film?

It is a poke in the eye to fundamentalists. I don't think moderate Christians would be too bothered by it.

[onehandle]

29. People don't care about the details.

This blankets us as anti-religion.

[Big Kahuna]

53. People are morons.. what are ya gonna do?

[onehandle]

69. Ha ha. True...true. nt

[Zynx]

100. We do have to take that into account when we do stuff like that.

[radio4progressives]

9. oh puhleeze - this is the biggest fabricated lie of 2005 .

i'm sick, sick, sick to death of all this crap around this NON-issue.


I really really really hope that democrats understand this is an urban myth created by the Christo Taliban who are DETERMINED to destroy any notion of the Separation of Church and State that the First Amendment which it is intended to protect, as it was intended to protect the freedom of speech and the freedom to worship any religion anyone so pleases - but also NOT to worship or believe in any theocratic edict or doctrine (including the existance of God).

I'm sick to death of it - evangelicals have your own forum - worship as you please but stop trying to shove it down my throat.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

199. RIGHTO! Exactly on point.

They (the christian taliban) are so demanding and intrusive that out of politeness, we have in the past given them an inch. And they demand a mile, plus changes in how all kids are educated.

It is time to stop this religious infiltration into our society, and the resulting destruction they cause in sane, rational society in general.

A scholar (who'se name escapes me) is about to publish a book based on a long researched paper which shows the religious societies in the west have a far higher murder, rape and criminal rate (especially among the most religious) than secular societies. Its publication will make the news over the next month or so. the vatican is preparing a response, I understand.

But it is true. Fundie religions destroy society. regardless of their creed or sect. If we do not stand up to them, society loses.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Change that to "Denying the existence of 'an approved' God"

Because that is the truth.

Don

[TahitiNut]

32. ... or 'the approved' God.

I get so damned tired of the zealots who try to shove their overly-politicized delusion of 'Gawd' down everyone's throat -- and then complain about being 'discriminated against' when someone pukes it back up on them.

[ptolle]

12. gawud train

So everybody's got to ride your gawud train eh?Nothing more american or democratic than blocking(censoring) any part of speech with which you do not agree.Personally I feel the debate is healthy and conducive to getting religion and politics more completely separated in that the commingling of the two is corrosive to both and to the health of the nation.

[onehandle]

27. Who said I'm on the "God Train"? nt

[HereSince1628]

31. Humans are the only animal to discover the one unique personal God.

The incredulity of this is based on reports that they've found at least two.

There needs to be room in the tent for these folks, too.

[reality based]

13. I move we have an election to settle this issue

The losers go to hell.

[Boojatta]

14. Bold film asks questions few dare to ask?

"Holding modern Christianity up to a bright spotlight, this bold and often hilarious new film asks the questions few dare to ask."
(from the website http://www.thegodmovie.com)

If they replaced "Christianity" with "Islam", then the words "bold" and "few dare to ask" would sound less like marketing hype and more like an attempt to be clear and accurate.

On second thought, even if we were talking about Islam, it would probably be more accurate to say "many do not dare to ask" than to say "few dare to ask." There are probably many people who were raised as Muslims who dare to ask challenging questions about Islam. Of course, a large number might still be a small percentage.

[HereSince1628]

16. What can I say, write the admins.

If you have a complaint take it to the admins.

[onehandle]

50. I'm not complaining about DU. This ad is at countless blogs today. nt

[SoCalDem]

18. Discussions about the existence of (a) God have gone on FOREVER

The difference in recent decades has been the right wing takeover of radio-tv-publishing. Intellectual vs faith has been a common theme in most "enlightened" society, but thinking people also tend not to believe the governmental bullshit, so there is a vested interest in keeping the people buying into dogma & blind faith. It's just a small step from there to believing that the "leaders" are themselves god-like, and therefore infallible.

Stopping the discussion, does more harm to a society than anything else..

Republicans have dressed themselves in the shroud and picked up the cross because it's a valuable tool...not because they truly believe..

The media is responsible for the controversy.. It's a fake controversy, but they nevertheless perpetuate it, because it's expedient.

If every Dem has to first defend his/her faith, the rest of what they say is permanently clouded by the possibility (in the eyes of the viewer) that they may not believe in God..

Even it it's true, it should have NO bearing on public policy for a polytheistic nation, but we will never hear media taking that approach..(the correct position on religion in the US)

[Skidmore]

19. The existence of God, whether you believe in a deity or not, is

not the issue. The issue is organized religions as political networks and their influences on the electorate. Believe what you want. Just keep it in the church or whatever place of worship you attend. It has no place in the halls of government.

[Mass]

20. Not sure I see the problem here.

Except of course, if we all have to be good Christians believing the Bible is litterally true.

[unblock]

21. If you wish to discuss the ad itself, or the existence of God and/or Jesus

Feel free to discuss, in a mutually respectful manner, in this thread.

However, if you wish to voice an opinion regarding the wisdom or appropriateness of having the ad on this site at all, please contact the Administrators directly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/contact.html

Thank you,
Unblock,
Du Moderator

[acmejack]

22. So it wasn't a stolen election! It was...GOD!

Punishing the evil godless party, got it.

[edbermac]

23. I don't deny God; I deny the ravings of Falwell & Robertson, et al

O8)

[onehandle]

40. I believe you.

But this ad makes us look like we deny all "Christians".

[Crazy Dave]

25. Who says democrats can't be christians?

The right wingers do.

What they don't say is that there are young, democratic, christian soldiers dying in their BS war.

[FlaGranny]

26. ??? Yes, I know, all our candidates spent

all their time denying God in the last few elections. Shame on them.

[Crazy Dave]

35. Don't know about that.....

every time I saw Kerry or Dean on TV they were in a black church.
:sarcasm:

[punpirate]

28. Tell you what...

... God can stay in the churches and stay the hell away from government. That's the way it used to be until the Republicans decided it should be otherwise.

You want the Dems to acknowledge that the Republicans were right. Great tactic. Sure to win, oh, fifty or a hundred additional votes, at least.

Now, if on the other hand, the Dems said, "God belongs in churches, and greedy, corrupt Republicans belong in jail," how many votes do you think they'd gain? :)

[mattclearing]

33. "What the Hell good can come from this?"

Me laughing. A lot. And very hard.

[ClintonTyree]

34. Right........

we shouldn't allow open debate about the existence a supreme being. Let's all just be good little sheep and completely ignore it. :eyes: Until we have an electorate that can make decisions based on THEIR OWN opinions we'll continue to suffer under the rule of oppressive, con-men who use religion as a tool to control the masses much like we have at this moment.
Believe or don't believe, that's your choice. But DO NOT stifle debate and critical thinking.
I don't particularly like insipid beer commercials that imply you'll get laid and be popular if you drink a certain brand of beer. Should we do away with them? No. If you don't like the commercial, hit the "mute" button. Same thing here.

[Moochy]

44. But the Ad makes baby jesus cry

oh wait that ad just told me he doesnt exist, so now what?

[danalytical]

37. Denying Jesus lived

seems a little overboard, but denying a God exists seems to be pretty logical. We have absolutely no evidence in the entiure history of mankind that there is a God. So why should we all assume there is one? We don't assume a crime occurred until it's proven. So proving God doesn't exist is meaningless, the burden of proof rests on those that believe one does exist.

Jesus probably did exist, as far as the man goes. He has some excellent teachings, but that doesn't mean he is the son of God. He may have been crucified, but that doesn't mean he rose from the dead.

Less than 1 in 10 Americans has a basic understanding of Science according to the NYT article I just read. On the flip side of that, 9 out of 10 Americans believe in a God. Here's the funny thing 95% of Biologists believe there is no God. It is no wonder that the public by and large believes in a God. It is also no wonder these people don't vote for Democrats. Democrats seem to be more in tune with the Scientific community, and many people equate Science with denial of God. What's a politician to do? Go around quoting from the bible but secretly doubting Jesus was the son of God? AHH the madness!

[onehandle]

43. I'm not questioning the validity of the premise of the film.

I'm questioning why we should be associated with the concept.

I say again, This does not help us.

[fudge stripe cookays]

115. And again...

most of us will ignore you.

Go preach elsewhere. Dissent is patriotic.

[Porcupine]

162. Why should it matter if Jesus lived or not? The myth permeates.....

our culture like yeast in beer. Windows never faced a virus as pervasive and dominant as the Jesus meme is in the minds of North Americans. I mean, hell, it's taken over the operating system of most of the South's people and convinces them to kick the homeless and send money to the guy on TeeVee.

The effect is real. It doesn't matter if the guy existed.

[Moochy]

38. Um Preach elsewhere?

You go ahead and keep worrying about offending the God squad.

[Solly Mack]

41. So there's victory in Jesus?

I couldn't resist. I just couldn't.

[Crazy Dave]

45. Hey....don't forget our good reverend....

Al Sharpton. He might get offended if he was told he didn't believe in God.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

173. Never mind Rev. Sharpton. Name THREE Dem officeholders or candidates

who deny the existence of God. This is a challenge to the OP and to other posters who advocate appeasing the bullies here.

Or, wake me up when that ad appears at www.democrats.org .

[mondo joe]

46. During which campaign did the dem candidate deny the existence

of god?

[Crazy Dave]

51. They don't....

but the right wing distorts their seperation of church & state views.

[Kurovski]

49. The vast majority of democratic politicians also believe in God.

The majority of Democrats believe in God.

It's the majority of republicans who choose to lie about it all that's the problem.

They think they can "own" God the way they own the ballot box.

And many Republicans who don't believe in God keep silent or lie about it. Do you really think Cheney believes in God? How could he and commit the crimes and sins he has? I ain't buyin' it.

Should Democrats also lie about their beliefs? It ain't gonna happen.

Atheists and agnostics can come to the Democratic Party because it strives to include all Americans per the Constitution/ Bill of Rights.

[Crazy Dave]

57. As I mentioned above.....

democrats strongly believe in the separation of church and state which is the opposite of the christian right wing who wants prayer in school, at work, in prisons, to use instead of law, etc. Totally against our constitution but the neocons put the "it's anti-christian" spin on it.

[Kurovski]

84. To repeat:

As also stated above by another DUer, this may be an issue that should be directly addressed to management. They decide what to accept.

Edit: This is not a response to your post, Dave. I accidentally placed it here. Sorry.

[Bill McBlueState]

52. people say that about gays

They used to say that about black people, too. Guess it's the atheists' turn to take the blame next.

[Double T]

55. Complete and Total Separation of Church and State........

every time these entities intermingle, there is NOTHING but trouble. Believe what you will and let others do the same; keep it personal and private, please.

[onehandle]

59. I am not promoting Religion.

Jesus Christ, do any of you actually read through these threads?

[ClintonTyree]

65. Why bring it up?

you knew what sort of reaction this would evoke. You couldn't help but poke the beast with a stick, could you? Now you've done exactly what the Reich-Wing wants us to do, fighting about this stupid NON-ISSUE among ourselves. Just let it be.

[onehandle]

67. I didn't place this ad on every Left-Leaning site on the Internet. nt

[ClintonTyree]

86. Answer my question.......

WHY bring it up? Are you purposely playing into the Reich-Wing's hands by stirring this pot or was it a mistake?

[Double T]

72. I did not say you were promoting religion........

political elections SHOULD NOT be about religion or religious beliefs, therefore we need total separation of Church and State. We don't need obscure issues about things, other than the politics at hand, blurring the importance of electing competent political officials and not some crackpot that has phony visions.

[Walt Starr]

56. That's my favorite ad!

I'm buying the DVD! The ad worked.

You may not like it, but if DU polls are to be believed, the majority on DU are NON-CHRISTIAN!

[onehandle]

62. I couldn't care less what people believe.

I'm addressing a pointless fight. Ads like this paint us as Non-Inclusive and lose us votes.

[Mass]

70. Why - Do people think we are not inclusive to Christians because

we say something that is true.

[Walt Starr]

93. So, what people post, read, and respond to on DU loses some people votes?

Man, that's just one weird assed theory!

Liberal blogs and DU are ECHO CHAMBERS!

The moderates don't even think about reading them.

[Rex]

58. Most liberals paint with a broad brush...you know all walks of life.

I find this whole topic to be BS. We didn't lose an election because of our beliefs. We lost because they rigged the election process.

[Warren Stupidity]

60. So your suggestion is that we ban all ads here

that hint that the christian god might be about as real as santa claus?

When did this become a christian message board?

[onehandle]

64. Does anyone read other posts within a thread before posting?

Maybe you should.

[Warren Stupidity]

68. Yes.

And it seems that you want christian-god denial ads banned from DU. Either that or you just want to complain but not do anything. As I am not the only responder to reach this conclusion, perhaps it is not our collective reading comprehension that is at fault?

[onehandle]

73. I simply think it makes us look crazy.

If thousands of ads for the "No plane hit the Pentagon" theory appeared, I would be just as vocal.

Throw Bigfoot, UFOs, and "Compassionate Conservatism" into that mix as well

[Rex]

83. But we are not talking about 1000s of ads, just one that

really seems to have some people believing in RW spin.

[Warren Stupidity]

71. I'm tired of tiptoeing around people's childish delusions. nt.

[BOHICA06]

74. Then be prepared to loose elections .... nt

[Warren Stupidity]

82. Gee we are already doing just that.

Our party has lost the last three national elections and every one of our candidates suck up to the god squad at every opportunity. I ain't gonna. Nor am I going to support anti-atheist censorship on DU.

[datasuspect]

194. as opposed to tight elections?

guffaw.

[muriel_volestrangler]

196. Or maybe he's Maximus Decimus Meridius

"on my singal, prepare to loose elections - oh and some javelins while you're at it".

[datasuspect]

197. are you series! OMG this is HUGH!!!!1111

snort, chuckle, guffaw!

[Warren DeMontague]

212. Yeah, lets take advice from you

Wouldn't want to 'loose' any more of them elections.

[onehandle]

76. Great.

There's no Santa, kids. Merry Christm... Uh, Holidays.

[MadHound]

75. WOW! Way to buy into that RW fundy spin there friend

First off do you have any solid evidence that the Democratic party denies the existence of God? And why are you buying into this bullshit spin? Why are you letting the RW fundies do the defining for you? Why are you buying into this propaganda?

My suggestion for you is to turn off the RW hate shows, and put down the RW hate papers. This is a talking point that is put out by a minority of people, and the fact that you're extrapolating it to the entire Democratic party, and that you're taking it seriously is a sure sign that you are buying into the BS. Don't.

Investigate for yourself, think for yourself, look for the evidence. I think that you will be quite suprised. Besides, just as many Democrats attend church as do Republicans. How can you believe that the whole party denies God? Wow, just wow.

[onehandle]

80. Read beyond my subject line.

And my other posts within the thread.

I'm not saying that all Dems deny God. I am saying that association with this film is counterproductive.

[ClintonTyree]

87. Then, as the Mods suggested, take it up with the Admins............

and stop stirring the hornets nest. There is absolutely no good that can come to DU from this pointless exercise of yours.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

78. I agree with you 100%. I'm not going to go too much into detail,

but I will say that ads of that nature being associated with the democratic party is not what I would want. I'm not sure how closely related these ads are to the party, so though you bring up a good point the reality of the ad's impact right now might be quite minimal (few infrequently visited blogs here and there). Like I said though, I really don't know how many sites advertise this particular ad.

I do agree though, that I would not allow that ad to be associated with my blog if I had one significant enough.

ON EDIT: oops. When I say I agree completely I mean with the sentiment that it isn't a good idea to associate that ad with left sites. I don't however, agree with the sentiment that this is above the other reasons you listed for our losing elections. :)

[rman]

85. Jesus is not god

the video questions the existance of Jesus as portrayed in the bible.

[onehandle]

89. No kidding. However most people won't see that little detail. nt

[Guaranteed]

127. That's called being RATIONAL.

But, it's not irrational to believe in some kind of high power, even one with intelligence.

[SPKrazy]

151. Some believe that Jesus was/is an expression of God

incarnate.

So questioning Jesus' existence may be questioning the existence of God for some.

For this Christian, I believe in the existence of Jesus. However, even if it were proven that he didn't exist, then my fall back view is that Jesus' philosophy (not the Paulist's philosophy) and story is one to show the love of God for humankind.

It wouldn't shake my faith any.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

178. According to us Catholics he is

just sayin'

[rman]

181. I was getting that impression, and i think it is most peculiar.

Isn't it pretty close to what one of the ten commandments prohibits; something about worshiping false gods?
I mean, these people do believe in god, right? Yet they have a holy figure like Maria, Petrus or Jesus as their religious focal point, as far as i know they don't actually pray to god but to their holy figure. It's kind of hard to argue that these holy figures are of more significance then god.
Oh well, to each his own.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

211. Well it's all about the theology of the Trinity but

Anyway - I'm a Secular Catholic - an oxymoron if there ever was one - :thumbsup:

[H2O Man]

88. I respectfully disagree.

Even within the context of the democratic party, atheists are a tiny minority, with little if any significance vote-wise. Atheists are significant in that there are groups of theists who target them for abuse, and because the constitution provides them equal rights in this society. But the only people wringing their hands over what atheists think are people who believe in Sean Hannity, who are already going to vote for republicans.

[onehandle]

92. That's true. But you have to admit it doesn't help us.

People outside of the atheists and hand wringers see this ad and will tend to associate us with "anti-Christianity".

That is no help whatsoever.

[H2O Man]

99. I would doubt

that it will be considered significant in a single "undecided" person's mind. The majority of atheists I know are not at all "anti-Christian." Those people who take interest in the ad you are noting tend to be college-aged people who are just beginning to question the world around them. Good that they question everything adults have told them, including about Jesus and the flag and George Washington. If a person is over the age 30 and big on the great mystery of Jesus's role in history, the chances are that their IQ is under 30, and one need not worry what they think, if anything. Christianity has survived greater threats, including those posed by the "religious right" .... which actually is deserving of our attention.

[Zenlitened]

90. Yes, we definitely should remove the atheist plank from the party platform

And our candidates really ought to make an effort to show up at churches on the campaign trail, and sprinkle their speeches with references to god, faith etc. That way there'll be no way for the right-wing religionists to distort our message!

:eyes:

[Jokerman]

91. Bullshit!

How many Atheists have we had on the national ticket?

[seabeyond]

146. my reply bullshit too, lol n/t

[onehandle]

96. ---> To clarify my position.

1) I'm not promoting Christianity or Religion at all.

2) I'm not saying that the Democratic party or any politician denies the existence of God.

3) I am not trying to appeal to fundies. I am concerned about moderates.

4) I am not complaining about any particular site.

5) I am not saying that atheists are crazy or are less worthy than non-atheists.


This ad just feeds into "our war on Christmas" crapola.

It makes us look crazy. Belief in God, or not.

[Lolivia]

101. So saying you don't believe in god is crazy?

[onehandle]

104. No.....I'm saying that that AD makes us look crazy.

Nice try.

[Lolivia]

108. But how would having the ad make you look crazy

if not for the content? Is advertising crazy?

[Ladyhawk]

168. I'm an atheist. I don't care what theists think of my beliefs or about

the ad here at DU. I wasn't terribly fond of the porn ad, but that's a personal choice. Not every ad at DU has to be about ME.

In fact, those of you who are Christians, why not contact some liberal Christian sites and have them buy some ad space? Liberals Like Christ? Anyone? I don't fucking care. :shrug:

[Speed8098]

174. Wait a minute..................

As a realist, I believe in things that are supported by facts. Can you show me "tangible" evidence that God exists?

Not anecdotal, tangible.

You cannot, nor can anyone else.

Who's crazy?

[SidDithers]

203. If you feel the need to clarify...

perhaps you should have taken a bit more time to consider your position before writing your original post.

But even after your clarification, I still think you're wrong.

Sid

Edit: typo in the Subject line

[killbotfactory]

97. Name any democratic politician in or running for office that is atheist

...

[onehandle]

102. See this post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5615287#5615856

[H2O Man]

106. According to you?

Or Sean Hannity? What are the ground rules? Did you know that John Kerry is a satan worshipper?

[DemInDistress]

103. The Dems didn't lose the elections in 2000--2002--and 2004

because of godly issues. We lost due to those fucking scumbags at Diabolical Deibold. They cheated us for the
last time. I hear Leon and Volusia counties in Florida have dismissed Deibold and theats the first good step in the right direction,not having god as the issue.

[Skinner]

105. You ask, "What the Hell good can come from this?"

Here's one good thing: $600 toward the DU bottom line.

Here's another good thing: It might spark some interesting conversations here on DU.

[onehandle]

109. Both worthwhile goals.

Somebody touch me. I got Skinner's attention.

ha ha.

[leftofthedial]

107. yes, we need to avoid truth at all costs

whenever the truth is unpopular or contrary to widely held delusions

[otohara]

110. I Know This For Sure - I Would Never Vote For Fundie Candidate

would you?

[onehandle]

111. Highly unlikely. Read this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5615287#5615856

[tocqueville]

112. the chick on the ad is cute nt

[pocket]

113. i.e. most voters are total boobs

sorry, we should not stoop

[donheld]

117. One reason we lose elections. Denying the existence of Dog.

[oregonindy]

118. Treaty of Tripoli, our founders say explicitly USA NOT founded on christia

I love history. So much there, hard to re-write and all you have to do is want to dig for the truth.

The significance of this article that is often overlooked or ignored is that it stated categorically that the United States of America is not founded upon the Christian religion, and that this treaty, with that statement intact, was read before and passed unanimously by the United States Senate, and was signed by the President of the United States without a hint of controversey or discord, and remains a definitive statement from the "Founding Fathers" on the secular nature of American government

Preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 and ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797


Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
------------------------------------------------------
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

4 good sites on it.
The first one is the actual minutes taken from The Journal of the Senate including the Journal of the Executive Proceedings of the Senate, John Adams Administration 1791-1801



http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/tripoli.html

Heres the links to the library of congress

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=002/llsp002.db&recNum=23
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsp&fileName=002/llsp002.db&recNum=24

Also found this in the Library of Congress while looking for the treaty.

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html
Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the “Mahamdan,” the Jew and the “pagan.” Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. “True freedom,” Lee asserted, “embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion.”

In his autobiography, Jefferson recounted with satisfaction that in the struggle to pass his landmark Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1786), the Virginia legislature “rejected by a great majority” an effort to limit the bill’s scope “in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan.”

[Hyernel]

119. Christianity has no factual merit...

It doesn't matter how many Americans believe in this medieval hokum. It is false. A vast majority of Americans, on this particular point, are stupid and utterly wrong.

True leaders would lead toward the TRUTH. But unfortunately they have to feign the intellectual cowardice that religion requires to get elected. (Both sides) The Democrats are preferable as they don't seem to actively use religion to manipulate the sheep into voting for them, opting to keep 'magic' and state separate as it should be.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

201. BRAVO! or brava, which ever fits.

Precisely.

That is why many here make the mistake of thinking bush is stupid. He is not. he plays to his audience. He planned a "shift" to use the religious idiots as a base. He used code words and signals, and "hidden" messages to the flock of sheep.

Why else would he still have 37% support?

[renate]

121. religion has no place in the government

and the absence of religion has no place in the government; the opposite of zero is zero.

Nobody would be happier than me to have religion OUT of the public discourse. (I'm a Christian, BTW.) America is, literally, the last country in the world that should let its government be influenced by religion, ESPECIALLY one particular religion.

But the way things are is pretty different from the way things should be. And pissing off people who DO think that religion belongs in government is a pretty sure way to make sure that those of us who DON'T will never get a say. I think a "live and let live" attitude would be ideal, if the religious zealots would let it go at that.

[Yollam]

122. WTF? It looks GREAT!

And it also seems to be probing honestly into whether or not the Jesus character was real.

As for your title, do you suggest that those of us who don't believe start LYING, or pretending that religion isn't the destructive force that many of us believe it to be?

Whatever. I will never do that. The moment that all atheists shut up for fear of upsetting the deluded majority, will be the day that young doubters have no one to turn to to understand that indeed, they are not the only ones who doubt the ridiculous stories of the Bible or the Koran or the Talmud or the Sutras.

I want to be there for other doubters to tell them, 'no, you're not crazy or sinful. You've just thought things through a bit further than most people care to. You're okay, and there are a lot of us who think just as you do.'

And how can you call a movement that tells people to STFU about their atheism (in the face of a major onslaught by would-be theocrats) progressive in any way?

[RebelOne]

125. I will be buying this movie.

Sorry, but as an atheist, I do deny any deities. I am not disillusioned by the false belief that I will be going to any great paradise in the sky when I die. The only place I will be going is six feet under or to the crematorium.

[Ladyhawk]

167. Hopefully my body will be donated to science.

I want my dead body to have some use. Unfortunately, most morgues shoot corpses full of preservatives before a will can be read. This makes them worthless for some scientific experiments. I would like my brain to go to depression research. I don't know if I feel strongly enough about this--yet--to get a tattoo that warns the morgue or funeral home to leave me the hell alone when I die. :)

One thing I definitely don't want is for my corpse to be used by fundy family members to validate their beliefs. I want a simple memorial service with no speculation about an afterlife. I already have my living will drawn up. I just have to hope that my wishes are respected should I die unexpectedly.

[Guaranteed]

126. Wait...are you talking the Bible, or God?

I'm a Deist. Many of our country's founders were Deists. It's hard not to be when you begin to appreciate the world that we live in.

The Bible, on the other hand....well.

[kenny blankenship]

128. Can someone tell me where the Democratic Party platform

comes out and declares the non-existence of God?

I'm having trouble locating that verbiage.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

141. BINGO! DU & liberalblogs are NOT the Democratic Party.

Relax, OP.

[TheFarseer]

129. You have half of a good point

Some people that associate themselves with democrats are quite distasteful to suburban America and rural America (that would include atheist activists, like people that sue over "Under God" on our money). Those people have no real power within the party, but often get held up by RW media as "mainstream" democrats. Their crazy people are even more distasteful to me than our crazy people but apparently alot of Americans feel differently. In conclusion, I think some of our fringe elements hurt us more than help us.

[Lolivia]

133. Please explain further

You label atheists as "distastful" and "crazy." Please explain how not believing in god is any crazier than belief in god.

Please also explain how wanting to uphold the constitution makes one a "fringe element." How does seeking to ensure the constitutionaly mandated separation of church and state, whatever one's personal belief on church, make that person crazy?

[TheFarseer]

140. We're just not going to agree

I never said atheists were crazy. No one cares if you are an atheist - that's your right, just like it's my right to be Christian or Muslim or whatever. Some people have a problem with someone else trying to force their beliefs on them - like taking "under God" off the money etc etc. You might say that keeping it on the money is forcing beliefs, but "under God" on the money is the status quo. Sorry, that's just the way it is. I think anyone that tries to force their beliefs on other people is crazy, no matter what religion they are.

[Warren Stupidity]

142. well you called 'atheist activists' crazy

And you state above that the status quo, which forces montheistic beliefs onto everyone through bullshit like 'under god' on currency, in pledges etc., since it is the status quo is acceptable, because 'it is just the way it is'. When Rosa Parks decided to thrust her crazy racist theories of equality on the citizens of Montgomery she too was forcing her beliefs on a population that firmly believed that the races should be separated. 'That's just the way it is' is not a valid defense for intolerance. Not then, not now. We are on the cusp of turning our nation from a secular republic to a theocracy and the opposition party is unsure exactly what 'secular' means.

[Lolivia]

143. Unconstitutional is unconstitutional

whether or not it is the "status quo." An unconstitutional act does not become constitutional by virtue of being around for awhile. Asking that the constitution be upheld is not "forcing your beliefs" on anyone, other then the belief that the government must behave in a constitutional manner. And that is one belief we are ALL able to "force" on others. Nobody can contravert the constitution based on their "belief."

Again, I don't think upholding the constitution makes anyone "crazy" or "distastful."

[datasuspect]

195. you forget to include blacks, gays, trade unionists

to those that are quite distasteful to suburban and rural america

[strangemedicine]

130. Hmmmm.

Well. You are entitled to your opinion, certainly. And i don't wish to demean your viewpoint, but this issue seems to me to be one of conviction ... we know there are folks out there, many perhaps, that think religion has a place in government. I'm not one of them. You are asking to play by repub right wing rules ... they want a theocracy. I don't think the majority of Americans want that.

[FreedomAngel82]

131. A person's beliefs

is personal and thus kept as such. Who cares if someone believes or doesn't (and this coming from a liberal Christian). Last April my town had a new mayor race and rumors went around that one canidate was an athiest and people freaked out and a local network gave her some time to talk about her beliefs. :eyes: Like I give a damn whether or not someone believes like I do or not. They should work for EVERYONE from athiest to pagans.

[FreedomAngel82]

134. I saw the preview and it's a film

about the reality that's going on with the fundies and what they do.

[Beelzebud]

135. Oh please. Save that shit for someone else...

We lost because:

A: We had a shitty candidate
B: We have no unity as a party
C: The corporate controlled media is in the back pocket of the GOP

[FreedomAngel82]

136. You should check out the preview

of this film. It isn't a pro-rightwing fundie film. It shows the reality of what they are doing to our country.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

138. I never saw where being an atheist is part of the Democratic platform...

??? :shrug: ???

[seabeyond]

139. bullshit. dems are christians, but thanks for promoting that dems

are anti christians. over 85% of america are christians. i think the dems have quite a few in the party, firstly. secondly, kerry was more of a participating christian all his life than bush could ever hope for. but again good for feeding hte story bush is a good christian boy while our kerry was not a christian

[Strong Atheist]

153. "dems are christians"

Some are not! :evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

157. and some repugs are not too. so ? n/t

[Strong Atheist]

159. Oh, just

questioning your comfortable assumptions ....:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

160. you assumed an awful lot to assume i was stating ALL dems

are christians, dont you think?

[Strong Atheist]

161. .

dems are christians

[seabeyond]

165. i understand your name better

and Dem's are christians. and atheist and jews and muslims and agnostic and and and ..... we can go back and forth all you like. i did not state all dems. not a tough one, but you want to argue this stupid point. are you really suggesting i would presume each and every person that vote dem is a christian. you really think that is what i am saying. or are you just arguing. further in my post i say a good number of dems. again i did not say all dems.

but then i dont have any issues with atheist either, so i dont have to battle or protect anything here. seemingly like maybe you are in quite a battle. that really has little to do with me

[Warren DeMontague]

187. "Democrats are Jews"

...sounds a little funny, doesn't it?

I concur with the previous poster. You left out the word "some".

[SPKrazy]

145. I tend to agree!

As a Christian and a Liberal, there are many times I am offended at anti Christian posts.

I don't know much about "The God Movie", but I did read a summary and found it to be nothing I am interested in.

I don't make attacks against atheists or non-believers, and I think that the majority of Democrats in this country would identify themselves with some type of spiritual belief.

So I don't quite understand the anti belief mentality that I've seen on some blogs, and in some posts and threads even here.


Thanks

PS. I will still vote Democratic, as I have since 1980 when I first voted for Carter! (Who BTW is an Evangelical Christian.)

[kcwayne]

148. This is such absolute bullshit

No Dem candidate has the courage to say they are atheist. They all claim some religious affiliation. Period.

But thank you for puking out right wing talking points.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

152. Are you saying you know some Dem candidates are atheists?

If so, can you say who?

[kcwayne]

177. Absolutely not. It would be political suicide to say you don't go

to church, let alone say you don't believe in a god. Hell, now days it is political suicide to say you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

While there may be atheists in the government, they hide in the closet.

[ulysses]

154. if Bush can go to war based on lies,

kill 2,000+ American soldiers and many thousands of Iraqis, fuck our schools, fuck our poor and elderly, fuck our workers...

...and win anyway simply because some of the left don't believe in God, then we don't deserve to win.

[AuntPatsy]

155. God, I am so sick of that argument constantly being brought up

as well as sick of those idiots falling for it every time...can they ever think of anything more original?

[drb]

156. You're absolutely right! Ask yourself this easy question: If you...

...were God, a kind and loving God who cares for everyone, with a special place in your heart for the least, the last and the lost, would you be on the rethuglican team with Dick Cheney and Tom Delay, or would you be on the team with Russ Feingold, John Edwards, and Jimmy Carter?

We dems really need to stop portraying Christians as the enemy, and welcome them to the team.

[leeroysphitz]

158. If I had a blog, I would see this ad as counterproductive

and block it.

Then I am grateful you do not have a blog or a management position here at DU.

You might find a better reception for your censorship BS elsewhere.
The filmmaker had a right to make this film, express his opinions and conclusions in it and has a right to advertise it.

Your "excuses" and rationales for advocating the censoring and banishment of ideas do not hold water. They haven't EVER held water. To hear this coming from someone here at DU is too much. It's ponderous man, just fucking ponderous.

[Bongo Prophet]

163. Your AVATAR of John Lennon

just confirms that you are a godless hippie.
John wrote that he "don't believe in Jesus"
and "Don;t believe in Beatles" - even though he was one!
Thereby denying his own existence! (in relation to the group)

You are hurting the party by having him as an Avatar...

Just kidding.
It is good that you are honest enough to say that you would block the ad from your blog.
If you had one.
Shows the spirit of openness that is the democr...oh wait.

But a point of fact:
This ad does not DENY anything.
If there are more than "exactly zero" contemporary accounts of Yesu ben Yusef then quote it.
The clips for the movie speak of the pre-Jeezus hero figures, virgin births and such from previous myths, and the fundies general ignorance -- often quite willful-- of their own religion. It does seem to be anti-ignorance in its posture. And it does point out that so many people believing that jesus is coming back in their lifetimes does tend to make for bad long term planning. And more.

People so very sure of the righteousness of their faith, combined with a lack of interest in discussing historical facts, and willing to KILL for it... and what you see is the danger of alianating some voters.
So go write a blog and block ads you don't like.
Better change that Avatar though.
For thou shalt have no other Avatars before me, thus sayeth the Lord.

:eyes: :eyes:

[H2O Man]

175. To be accurate

one might note that John went back and forth on issues of religion, spirituality, and prayer. Nearer to the time of his death, his Love Letter strongly advocated prayer. It would seem odd to take a point that is relatively early in his journey, and say, "See what John thought?" when he so obviously went far beyond that point.

[Bongo Prophet]

202. Sorry the humor was too obtuse

I never said "See what john thought?" and that is so beside the points I was trying to make.
Oh well, no harm.
"Don't believe in Beatles/Jesus" lines were from NY days, not so early in his journey, and the point wasn't that at all, but THE APPEARANCE of misinterpretation like THE APPEARANCE of that ad. Rightwingers and oh yeah moderates might get scared from DU. Oh my.

Sarcasm.
I like John just fine. Miss him Miss him Miss him.
I'm very bored.
fnord.

[NVMojo]

164. sorry, these schiavo - merry fucking Xmas types scare me away!

[DesEtoiles]

166. Welcome to my ignore list

[me b zola]

171. Wow. So you have no historical knowledge??

Or do you just want to throw away our founder's intentions because you find it politically inoportune?



What an offensive post.

[TankLV]

172. Oh brother.

This is absurd.

[Swamp Rat]

176. WHO DARES TO INVOKE MY NAME ON A POLITICAL MESSAGE BOARD?!?

And STOP averting your eyes!

[rman]

185. This Modern World: "Averting their eyes"

http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=19510

[Swamp Rat]

200. Excellent!

Those two remind me of people I know. ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

182. Another "Shut the fuck up, you atheists!" thread.

Lovely.

[deutsey]

184. I think denying the existence of a fucking backbone has more to do with it

[Warren DeMontague]

188. God DOESN'T Exist.

...Is that statement offensive to you?

Specifically, it that statement more offensive than saying "God Exists"? Or even "Stop Denying the Existence of God"?

Would a movie that argues God, or Jesus, DOES exist be less offensive than one that argues they don't?

I suspect, for a great many believers who like to think they are 'tolerant' of Atheists, the statement "God Doesn't Exist" IS offensive- as is the statement "I believe God doesn't exist", although many believers pretty much seem to expect unbelievers to add qualifiers where oftentimes they don't feel a need to, themselves.

Which goes a long way to validating my thesis that much of the problem, here as well as in society at large, isn't so much "Atheists and Secularists waging war on Christianity and God" as it is that some Christians and other believers are made VERY uncomfortable by any open, unapologetic statements of disbelief.

[muriel_volestrangler]

190. So, you think that any minority view should never be seen

on a left-leaning webpage, even when it's an ad. Never mind that it's not the Democratic party that prodcued the movie; never mind that it's not the Democratic party that's running the forum, or left-of-center blogs. Just the sight of an ad questioning the historicity of Jesus is going to make people say "we" (members of the Democratic party? anyone left of center?) 'deny the existence of God'. I guess all Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists should shut up as well, then, because they don't think Jesus was the son of God either - a minority view in the USA, so you think all adverts from those religions should be denied too, yes?

What about people against the death penalty? A minority view in America, so no ads (or, I presume, comments in a forum or on a blog, since they're actually coming from someone on the left, rather than being advertised to them) about that either. Opposing the Iraq invasion? It was a minority view in March 2002 in the USA, so everyone should have just shut up about it then. Only when it became a majority view in the country should we be allowed to start talking about it, huh? Wow, looks like DU must have lost the last election for the Democrats all on it own, by opposing the Iraqi invasion so strongly. If only we'd known that the way to run a democracy is by parrotting whatever the majority view is. Still, we'll know better next time, thanks to your superb advice, won't we?

[Greyhound]

192. Almost 200, I'll kick in

Nice.
Oh yeah, it's still a non-issue.

[datasuspect]

193. dude or dudette - CHANGE YOUR AVATAR

seeing john lennon's mug next to your spew is painful.

[leftchick]

204. I agree.. and as an Extremely Liberal practicing Roman Catholic

I find this extremely offensive and divisive to the party. wtf? Is the Democratic party now the anti- Christ party??

[Warren DeMontague]

213. So, would ads for "The Passion of the Christ" be offensive and divisive?

How about ads for ANY religious-themed film?

Is it 'offensive and divisive' when someone states that they are Christian, or when someone says "I Believe in God"?

No? Then how come open proclamaitions of disbelief are 'offensive and divisive'? Sheesh, sometimes it sounds as if y'all will melt like the wicked witch of the west whenever someone says "I don't believe in your God, sorry".

Don't like the premise of the movie? Don't see it. But it's an AD. It no more speaks for the Democratic Party than that talking dog that used to chase the little chuck wagon under the kitchen counter.

[jonnyblitz]

205. STUPIDIST. fucking.thread.EVER..

:puke:

[Vektor]

206. Huh? I don't recall any Dem candidate denying the existence of God lately.

We don't "lose elections" because someone who doesn't believe in God starts a website. The voters do not care what someone not running for office thinks about religion.

We "lose" elections because it is not our side that owns the machines that "count" the votes.

An atheist blog has nothing to do with it.

[Raydawg1234]

208. Enough of this apeasment, if you can't beat um join em crap

We don't win elections because of people like you!

[MrSlayer]

209. Denying the existence of something that doesn't exist is the problem.

Right I see now. So we should all play along with this ridiculous superstitious notion? We should forget reason and rationality and go with faith based conclusions? Count me out.

[onehandle]

236. Right. And it has nothing to do with politics.

And That is why this ad should not be associated with us.

[beam me up scottie]

210. One reason minorities are tread upon in this country:

People like you.

Thanks for supporting the majority.

We won't forget it.

[Bluebear]

218. You got dat right. nt

[Ravy]

214. Christian Repbulican is an oxymoron...

I don't know a single Republican who I would consider a true Christian. Their entire philosophy is about as anti-Christian as you can get. They are people who like to CALL THEMSELVES true Christians. I don't believe a single one of them has gotten to the New Testament part of the Bible yet, or if they have, they skipped to the last book.

[jsamuel]

217. No one should sacrifice their belief or "un-belief" for political gain.

Let everyone speak the truth of themselves and fight for the principles each holds dear.

(I happen to disagree with those who do not believe in God, but I think this is a divisive side-issue that distracts us from the real issues facing our country in THIS WORLD.)

[d_b]

219. That and trying to ban guns.

Damnit all!

[KitchenWitch]

220. Big Tent

More popcorn :popcorn:

[NMMNG]

221. Here we go again

:eyes:

Time for the dems to dissolve all ties with "them atheists" if they want to win elections.



Maybe they should stop promoting gun control and freedom of choice for women while they're at it. I won't even mention equal rights for gay people--I know what you'll say about that.

:popcorn:

[KitchenWitch]

222. Thank you Buffy!

Sometimes words fail me...

[NMMNG]

223. It's the same old stuff

Atheists, gays, women, etc. need to sit down and because they are just costing the Dems votes. :eyes:

[KitchenWitch]

224. Yeah, I know

It is fucking tiresome, tedious, and predictable.

:grr:

[onehandle]

231. Again, DUers making uninformed assumptions.

Without reading through a thread.

I'm talking about one stupid lousy ad.

If you want an anti-religion plank in the Democratic Platform, start lobbying now.

[JNelson6563]

225. Yes! Ram Bible-god down their throats!!

Pray on the street corners! Invoke god (make sure it's the right god!!) in everything you do! And if there are actual facts that do not support what you proclaim, denounce them wildly!

Ugh.

[onehandle]

233. Who are you talking to? Surely you're not addressing me.

I'm not pushing God, nor did I even say I believe.

Try reading before you post.

[KG]

226. feel free to prove the existance of 'God'

take your time, i'm not busy today. :eyes:

[onehandle]

232. I want God OUT of Politics.

Try reading. I never said I even believe in God.

[onehandle]

227. More proof that DUers don't read threads before posting.

Later posters really need to do this before making assumptions.

I clarified a few of my points in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5615287&mesg_id=5615856

[muriel_volestrangler]

228. Your clarified them particularly badly

eg " I'm not saying that the Democratic party or any politician denies the existence of God."
v. thread title "One reason we lose elections. Denying the existence of God."

So who is the "we" who lose elections, if not the Democratic party?

You say you're not promoting religion - but you are trying to suppress free speech for the non-religious. So that's alright, is it? And if you're not complaining about any one site, you're saying that everybody on the left should block free speech by atheists, are you? That's even worse. You claim you don't say atheists are less worthy - but you're wanting an atheist ad blocked - that looks like calling them less worthy to me. And you claim you don't say atheists are crazy - but say the ad makes 'us' look crazy. So it's just that even a commercial association with an atheist makes someone look crazy, is it? Atheism isn't actually crazy, it just appears that way - and it's contagious?

[datasuspect]

229. religion makes a lot of people batshit crazy

but then again, they read and believe in a book with all sorts of inconsistencies, half-truths, and contradictions, that's it's no wonder we still don't believe the earth is flat.

[onehandle]

235. I'm saying that "we" are denying by association.

I'm really talking about a counterproductive ad.

Kind of like "Free Mumia" people at protests against Bush.

What's the point?

[muriel_volestrangler]

237. What's the point of free speech?

Wow, where to begin ...

Free speech allows the development of new ideas, thus encouraging progress. It enables people to lead more enjoyable lives. It helps minorities resist oppression.

Surely you see that you shouldn't ban someone's ideas just because the majority of Americans don't agree with them? That would have meant banning opposition to the Iraq invasion. It would mean banning opposition to the death penalty. Then again, I made those points back in post #190, and you haven't got round to a reply yet. You did read it, didn't you?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

230. Yes we do.... We also have a thing against superstition & ignorance.

[DanCa]

238. No one here has made me hate "god" more than George W Bush

and all his blasted sheeple. I dont deny the existence of god , I deny the existence of Bush's version of god. I myself go to church regulary and I don't know how Georgie and his sheep misinterpt and add to scripture to fit the bill of the day. I also support the right of anyone who wants to disagree that thier is the existence of a god including. Strong note I say disagree not mock or ridicule.

[Gold Metal Flake]

239. Locking

Per original poster's request.