an argument to leave Iraq now

[LSK]

Saving our soldiers lives.
Saving Iraqi lives.
Saving our military.
Helping Katrina victims.
Keeping our National Debt probaby from getting much worse.
Preventing cuts in Education, Social Security, Medicare.
Slowing momentum Islamic Jihad and terrorist recruiting.

The war in Iraq continues to murder our soldiers and Iraqis and continues to gush massive amounts of money out of our economy and treasury.

Listen to Murtha, he knows what hes talking about.

[Golden Hand]

1. Seriously?

You really believe all that?

You don't think the Iraqi insurgents would be vastly encouraged and put on a much more equal playing field with the Iraqi government (which, while flawed, is the closest thing to a democratic government the Iraqis have ever had)? Don't you think that would cause much more of an all-out civil war? I see Iraq turning into post-Soviet Afghanistan or Liberia if we suddenly pull out.

If you think our troops' lives are worth 10 or 20 or 100 Iraqi lives apiece (as I'm sure Murtha does), then OK. Not exactly an internationalist perspective.

There is one very likely outcome if we dump the Iraqis and pull out. The country splits up into warring factions. The Kurds take their ball and create Kurdistan, and start a war with the Sunnis over Kirkuk and Mosul (with a good chance of a NATO-splitting Turkish invasion in the offing). The Shiites declare their own independence and set up an Iran-style Islamist state in the south. And the Saddamists rebuild in the Sunni triangle.

Probably worse than Afghanistan. Probably like the Balkans. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, environmental disaster. And a swell place for the Islamist caliphists to set up a new headquarters.

I agree the invasion was a probably a mistake, and the rebuilding/pacification have been botched. But we still broke it, and we still bought it. It took how long, 30 years for the Brits to negotiate peace with the IRA in Northern Ireland? It's a heck of a responsibility, but it's one we created.

[LSK]

2. well considering an insurgent is an Iraqi who hates Americans

Why the hell would he attack Iraqis when Americans leave?

American troops leaving would take the wind out of insurgency bigtime.

Regarding civil war, what makes you think one wont happen ANYTIME after we leave? If we leave today or we leave in 10 years, why wouldnt they have one then?

Also, why are Iraqis more important than Katrina victims?

[Golden Hand]

7. The insurgents are attacking Iraqis NOW

Most of the targets of bombs are Iraqi police and civilians, not American troops. There are a bunch of insurgencies, not just one. Baathists, religious Sunnis, pro-Iran Shiites, and international Islamist jihadists. The one we're most concerned about (Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia) is just as opposed to Iraqi democracy (which it says is un-Islamic) as it is to American occupation.

There's a much greater chance of the Iraqi government surviving and succeeding if they get some breathing space until they can get their infrastructure up and running (to build support), and recruit and train their own security forces (to stomp out insurgents). True, the American presence does spur terrorist recruitment and dampen the government's popularity, but Iraq today is FAR more peaceful than the Balkans were in the '90s, when the EU was dithering over what to do. Better to limp along with some level of insurgent violence (a la Northern Ireland) than to abandon the place to the orcs (Somalia).

You understand reponsibility, right? We turned Iraq into a war zone. We should be the ones to defeat the people who want it to continue to be a war zone. Or at least keep them beaten down enough to turn it over to the Iraqi army.

Weird parallel with Katrina victims. Who's blowing them up? Take the money for them from the proposed tax cuts. And anyway, their plight isn't the federal government's FAULT the way the Iraqis' plight is.

[LSK]

8. 2.5 years - has the violence ever slowed???

6 months from now the death toll will just continue to mount. We are not stopping the violence? How many more must die before you realize this? Yes we are responsible for this mess, but the people running the show HAVE NO INTEREST IN DOING THE RESPONSIBLE THING. Please tell me why Iraqis have massive unemployment when they have a whole country to rebuild?? Maybe because we are paying Halliburtan contractors $100,000 per year to drive trucks?? Maybe that has something to do with it?!?!?!

The reason I bring up the Katrina victims is the $500 billion we have spent for this Iraq disaster could have rebuilt everyones home in the Gulf Coast and built a truly great new New Orleans. Instead its 3 MONTHS LATER and its a FUCKING DISASTER AREA. IN AMERICA!!!! THE FUCKING WRECKAGE ISNT EVEN PICKED UP YET!!!1

BUT OUR FUCKING LEADERS TALK ABOUT IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ!!!

WHY DONT WE LIVE IN A POST KATRINA ERA!?!?!?!

FUCK! :grr:

[tom swift]

3. Yes,seriously

In the excitement over the Iraqi election there has been a dearth of coverage (big surprise) about the parties and candidates running in the election.
The Sunnis: the major party is the Iraqi Consensus Front whose slogan is: "Get the invaders out and rebuild the country"
The Shia: the two most powerful are the Dawa and SCIRI which are both Iranian backed. The guy on whose book "Syriana" was based said "These guys are murderers, they (Dawa) were the core element that blew up our embassy in Beirut." The SCIRI was founded by Ayatollah Khomeini to take over Iraq. Guess what, we're allowing it to happen in an election.

See the articles at Informed Comment (Juan Cole),PeaceJournalism_com, and read the reports by Tom Lasseter at Knight-Ridder (I personally think this guy has written some very good stuff from Iraq.
Get out? We took out the one guy who was keeping the Iranian influence in check, and we go and hand them a country they've been trying to control for 30 years.

Yes,indeed,this is working out just fine.

[Cleetus]

4. Our obgligations to Iraqis?

Daddy Bush did this to the Kurds a decade ago. He told them to "Stand Up", and that we would be beside them. Daddy Bush hung the Kurds out to dry.

Saddam was a miserable bastard, but the average Iraqi (The butcher, carpenter, electrician, secretary) had electricity and infrastructure. Their kids weren't getting blown to bits by IED's. They had steady saleries and access to doctors. Their country was not a safe haven for terrorists. There was no civil war.

We went in there to install a democracy. In the process of doing so we have turned pristine rivers into cesspools, we have made life for the average Iraqi a hit and miss proposition.

I can't help but feel that many Iraqis are just like me. They love their families, they go to work. We can't just pull up stakes and leave. We owe these people something. I'm not sure what, but we owe them something.

As far as I'm concerned, none of them are worth the life of a single American, much less thousands of Americans. Suggesting that more of our kids die there makes hurts me so much, yet simply leaving does not seem like an option.

Maybe it should go like this-

Limited, scheduled pull-outs of assets begin ASAP. So long as junior says we'll stay forever, the Iraqis will be more than happy to allow us to die for them. Setting a timetable for withdrawl, including conditional withdrawl based on benchmarks should take place.

If the criteria for limited withdrawl is not met, we should determine why, and do something about it.

Meanwhile, unconditional scheduled withdrawl will be taking place. American assets should be moved more to the periphiry. Iraqis should be the ones kicking in doors. Not us. Not after three years.

'06 elections will take place. If we can get past the rigged voting machines, maybe we can take back some power. Maybe Kerry had it right. That serious investigations into pre-war lies will begin.Then the impeachment proceedings may begin

If the Iraqis see this, see that Bush is no longer untouchable, maybe then they'll start believing that we won't be there forever. They really do need to begin taking care of themselves a bit better. Seeing Bush twirling around on the rotisserie should be enough to promt them into action.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong and we should get the hell out of there. I dunno.

[LSK]

5. "We went in there to install a democracy."

No, that is not the reason we went there. Go read the Iraq War Resolution.

Also you are correct, they had electricity, water, jobs before we went in there. They have none of that yet. Any jobs that are there to rebuild have been giving to Halliburtan, not Iraqis.

We treat Iraq as a cashcow for a priviledged few corporations. It is time to leave. It is the only right thing to do. Because this administration WILL NOT DO THE RIGHT THING THERE. EVER!

[Cleetus]

6. *sigh*

You're probably right

[pocket]

9. yes

yes