Eating the Afterlife: Why the GOP is desperate for you to be Christian

[ProfessorPlum]

I'm in the middle of reading an excellent book called "Resurrection: Myth or Reality" by an Episcopal Bishop named John Shelby Spong. I like the cut of this guy's jib. He is one of the most honest and brave writers about Christianity I've read in my whole life. Some of the other titles he has written, including "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism", "The Sins of Scripture : Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love" and "Living in Sin? A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality", give you some idea of where he is coming from.

Today I was reading and hit upon a passage that touches on something I've been meaning to write about for a long time, which is the effect on the belief in an afterlife, or eternal justice, has on our actions as people within a society. From the book:

I began to understand how the concept of life after death had acted as a deterrent to any passion of building a just society. Life after death made the unfair world appear to be fair, for it represented justice delayed, not entirely denied.

...

I also began to document the historical and polical reality that when belief in life after death began to fade in Western civilization in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, it was replaced by liberal politics. Indeed liberal politics were born, I would argue, to fill the vacuum created by the denial of a belief in life after death. Everything . . . was an unconscious response to the loss of a sure conviction in regard to life after death . . . When the hope that fairness awaited us in the afterlife waned in our unbelieving age, the need to make fair the unfair world was keenly felt and found expression in the political arena. Liberal politics came into being with that as its single basic agenda. If fairness was not destined to be achieved in an afterlife, a passion to achieve it in this life must be served.

This resonates extremely strongly with me, because I believe it explains, in the backwards direction, what it is that our leaders, who so want us just to shut up as they make our world increasingly less just, would have us do. It explains, to a very large degree, why Reagan, whose agenda was taking from the poor to give to the rich, also ushered in the current and ongoing takeover of the GOP by the religious fundies.

If you want to screw the people out of fairness in this life, you've got to offer them something else, something to nourish their sense of justice. Do the GOP want to screw people out of fairness? They seem to be riding a one-way ticket to abolish all earthly justice: affirmative action, discrimination legislation, a progressive taxation system, the power of the individual to get redress from powerful corporations, autocracy and surveillance from the government. And on the other hand, they lament at how "secular" our society is. Oh, if only the people would except heavenly justice and quit clamoring for earthly justice. It really makes the rich people mad, trying to accomodate these calls for fairness on earth. How they are able to put up with the demands of the poor. Why, those people expect the rich to follow the same laws as everyone else! They expect warprofiteers not to start wars which just get a lot of people killed when there is money to be made. They expect a little security in their old age, or in case of a sudden loss of a breadwinner. Peons.

From a rich person's point of view, I'll bet they would like this country to become super duper Christian. Not enough money to heat your home? Warm yourselves with thoughts of how much Jesus loves you. Got screwed by some huge, megalithic corporation which owns half of Congress? Well, your suffering here on earth with be rewarded after you are dead. No money for food?

Eat the afterlife.

More at The Watch

[nickinSTL]

1. excellent

n/t

[MadHound]

2. This has always been a truism with Christianity

Don't persue justice in this life, for you will recieve it in the next. This is why American slaves were converted to Christianity, why the conquistadors and all other colonialists were followed by priests. Not to convert them in order to save their soul, but to convert them in order that the rape of their person, their country, their way of life would be more palatable by the promise of justice and the good life in the hereafter.

And meanwhile, these very same people are doing everything they can to make their own life in the here and now into as reasonable a proxy of heaven as they can.

[teenagebambam]

16. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater

Many of us Christians believe that Christianity COMPELS us to create a better, fairer, society...just as Christ taught and demonstrated.

[MadHound]

21. I'm not, but sadly Christianity has been appropriated

By a large group of greed heads who use it to their own advantage, and have done so almost since the inception of Christianity.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

28. And many of us non-christians think

that christianity compels people to destroy society, brutalize their fellow man, all behind the cover of doing good and making the world a better place. The history of christianity clearly demonstrates that it is an immoral religion.

[More Than A Feeling]

29. *monotone* must...destroy...society

Thank you for painting a whole religion with broad brush just like the nutjobs who think Islam is a terrorist religion.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

30. No, just see it for what it really is.

[More Than A Feeling]

32. How do you feel about fundamentalists who tell you you are going to hell?

Pretty rude of them, right? I'll bet they think they are just "seeing it for what it really is" too.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

35. Yes, but I understand that they are simply delusional

and really, feel sorry for them. I know it is terrible having to go through life believing a myth to be reality just so that one can cope.

[hfojvt]

54. the same way they understand that you have been deluded

by Satan. Is it wonderful having to go through life believing you will go into nothingness within 90 years? I cannot see how. Even if that happens to be the reality, which is may very well be. Yet, if so, it is a reality that fucking sucks IMO. I'll take a delusion over here, and can I get fries with that?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

58. ROTFLMAO. Really, reality is not such a bad thing

You should try it out.

[wickerwoman]

74. In fact, it is wonderful.

Realizing that one life is all you get motivates you to make the most of it. I can't imagine believing in an afterlife where either 1.) I have to go through everything over and over again or 2.) I have to take a raincheck on pleasure, freedom and justice because "God wants it that way and don't you dare ask any questions."

You're entitled to demand to be treated like a child your entire life, but you have no idea what you're missing out on.

[hfojvt]

85. both of the responses seem outrageously arrogant

First of all, I do know what I am missing, since I spent the first six years of my adult life as an atheist. Second, you only mentioned two possibilities, both of which sound odd to me. Third, what is pleasure? Some things that seem pleasurable, like smoking, drinking alcohol, and doing cocaine are personally and socially harmful. Other people, apparently, find pleasure in beating the crap out of people. Any ethical person is expected to restrain both their pleasure and their freedom when it is harmful to other people.

As far as justice goes many of the people calling for that in history have been religious prophets, and people fighting for it such as John Brown, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Washington Gladden have been motivated by their religious beliefs. Also, instead of "making the most of their temporary life" they did what they thought was right, a more difficult path which lead to an early death for two of the three I mentioned.

Living with hope of an afterlife is not asking to be treated as a child your entire life. Although the belief seems implausible and there is no proof for it, it is also not impossible, nor has it been disproven. It's a leap of faith in either direction.

[wickerwoman]

89. Whereas,

"Your reality fucking sucks!" is what, modesty? Self-abrogation? You got two responses that echoed the tone of your own flame-bait. You lost the high ground in your original post.

I don't think you do know what you are missing, even if you were an atheist for a few years. If you did, you would never have written the above quote. Anyone can say "I'm a Christian" or "I'm an atheist"- it doesn't mean they've reflected very deeply on what it actually means. Your conception of atheism is colored by your fear of death which makes it look like a "sucky" reality. If you really understood what atheism means, you would see the huge realm of possibility that it opens up.

Huge, but not infinite. You show a further lack of understanding of atheism when you assume that it is incompatible with ethical living. The only difference is that I don't need some invisible father figure threatening to spank me for all eternity to decide that killing, raping, stealing and otherwise being a meany is a bad idea. I don't need the threat of hell to see that some pleasures (smoking, taking drugs, beating the shit out of people) aren't worth the price. The problem with believing that the only reason not to do bad is because God will punish you is that encourages people to try to game the system. Hence, I'll be an asshole my whole life but apologize to Jesus at the last second. Being good to avoid punishment is child's reasoning. Being good because you understand how it benefits yourself in the long run is how adults think. I think both child-thinkers and adult-thinkers have been both Christians and atheists, but I do see a pretty significant portion of each gravitating towards one way of thinking and that's what I was generalizing about.

**sorry, have to get back to work, more later**

[hfojvt]

92. okay that is classic bully

hit somebody and then say "well, you brought that on yourself"

Saying "if that is reality, then it certainly sucks" is not the same as saying "you should try reality" or "unlike me, you are asking to be treated as a child your whole life". Now you are saying "you didn't reflect deeply on things" but doubtless that only seems like a personal attack because of my child-thinking.

I never assumed that atheists are incapable of ethical living, but clearly many humans are, whether they claim to be atheists or christians. Some scoff at the very idea of trying. The ideal of "getting the most out of a transitory life" and saying that Christianity, or theism, limits freedom, do not sound like a basis for ethical living because ethics limit freedom.

I believe I made my sweeping generalizations simple generalizations. Yours, otoh, was not a generalization. It was specific to me.

My OP was meant to be humorous, and also to point out that death sucks (although in my darker moments I am not sure if life doesn't suck more). The one response was probably fine if it had included a :P which may have been implied with the opening ROFL, but without that it was not clear if I was being laughed at for the wrong reasons.

[GoneOffShore]

94. The best thing about not believing in an afterlife

is that one is obliged to take real responsibility for ones actions.

[Fovea]

88. "go through life believing a myth to be reality"

Thank you for exposing the crux of the biscuit, as it were.

Faith allows myth to be myth, and does not insist that it occurs in temporally verifyable time and space.

Indeed, myth transends and illuminates reality. And grownups of all faiths can understand, benefit from, and respect the power of myth.

mythos means story. I do not have to believe that Mr. Kurtz marched about the Congo to know that his methods were unsound. I do not have to believe that Jesus fed the multitudes with a fish and a loaf of bread to understand that he was saying to be unstinting in our love of our fellow human beings.

I do not have to believe that Evneissen threw himself into the cauldron of rebirth to save humanity from the undying. I understand sacrifice to save Dharma.

I am a grown up. I understand a good metaphor when I see one.

That does not mean I don't have faith. I have been an ordained Pagan Priest for more than 30 years. I just don't have to believe that the Gods have a forwarding address to be valid and real.

[kcwayne]

49. I am not going to hell, I am IN hell when they are in my presence.

[hfojvt]

53. "Hell is other people" Sartre

"So is heaven" Andrew Greeley

[ProfessorPlum]

37. Look, I know where you are coming from

All of the visible Christians in today's world, on TV, etc. are grifters and hatemongers.

But there are thousands of people brought up in the Western tradition, who believe in an afterlife and even a Christian god, who have worked their asses off and through their actions and ideas made life better for the poor, the sick, the weak, the imprisoned. You simply can't deny that.

The problem is what to do with the others.

[LittleClarkie]

70. *monotone* get... your... own... that... one's... mine...

Sorta like the way some folks talk about Commies, innit.

We eat flesh and drink blood, doncha know.

[ProfessorPlum]

31. The history is quite horrible

But that's really quite a bomb to throw here, don't you think? There have been millions of acts of kindness, hope, and love done as a response to and with inspiration from the wisdom (which has to be carefully plucked) found in Christian texts.

As an agnostic, I'm not too pleased on the effects of "organized religion" on the thought processes of most people. But there are benefits, too. Most brutalization and oppression are the brain-children of powerful individuals, even as the less powerful justify their obedience to those ideas through "God". But what a way to miss the whole point, huh?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

33. No, that is the whole point

I do not see it in some magical mystical terms of having a higher purpose than we as mere humans can ever understand. I see it for what it is, a systematic institution of control of the masses through brutal oppression.

As for acts of kindness, many acts of kindness are done the world over by people who have never heard of the christian religion, so to conclude that christianity invokes kindness in people is just well, not sound reasoning. And whatever good moral conclusions one can derive from the christian religion have all been taken from somewhere else, very little of it actually derives from christian thought, but has been taken from somewhere else and re-packaged. Even the story of the resurrection comes from ancient greek mythology.

[ProfessorPlum]

38. Your logic is flawed

Just because acts of kindness are done by non-Christians, doesn't mean that Christians cannot do acts of kindness.

I'll take more kindness in the world by whatever means, whether the actor believes in Krishna or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Try to separate "the church" as an instrument of oppression from the people who can work within it for good.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

41. No, it is not flawed

"Just because acts of kindness are done by non-Christians, doesn't mean that Christians cannot do acts of kindness."

But that is exactly what the poster was alluding too when they claimed that it was because of their christian belief, and others like them, that they do good works. The implication here is that others, because they are not christians, cannot do good works because they don't have they proper moral training or i.e. the right religion.

Do you people not ever actually read your bible. Do you not understand how much murder and barbarism is contained within it's pages and promoted as morality. Do you not understand that it advocates that if your wife is not a virgin on your wedding night, she should be stoned to death, or that if your children talk back to you they likewise should be stoned to death. Or do you think you can just cherry pick the parts you like and pretend the rest doesn't exist. Sorry friend it doesn't work that way.

[ProfessorPlum]

45. First of all, it's not my bible. Second of all, your logic is flawed

I think it is certainly possible that some people's action would be different (in some cases possibly better, in some cases possibly worse) if they were not in a particular religion, in the case at hand Christianity.

Can you prove this isn't so?

There may in fact be people that do good works because of their religion. There is no implication in that statement that other people can't do good in the world without the "right" religion. There is also no implication that everyone that does something good does so because of religion. But you can't claim that no one's behavior has ever been improved by their religious training. Is that really your position? Because that's laughable on its face.

We get it, you don't like religion. I'm not too fond of it myself. But think before you engage your brain and smear something like 20% of the world's population with such a broad brush.

[FreedomAngel82]

63. First of all

majority of all the murders that happen are in the old testament. Christian's do not follow the old testament because that is where the Jews are. The New Testament is what we follow because that is where Jesus is and the new church based on Christ's teachings.

[madeline_con]

82. Conversely....

It is written that Jesus said he came to uphold the O.T. and added a few parables and had fish dinner with a large audience.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. Check out the group

SoJourners and Christian Alliance which are both progressive groups.

[susanna]

91. Read Aldous Huxley's "The Perennial Philosophy"...

He understood and wrote exhaustively about the fact that there are very few true followers of any given religion. He also discovered that they do exist and are the ones who have found the Eternal Ground that all religions exist to seek...with footnotes. :-)

[Ladyhawk]

57. I honestly believe there is no baby.

From what I've seen, religion has little redeeming value. :( I believe that good people would do what is right regardless.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."-- Carey Goldberg. "Why Are We Here?" International Herald Tribune, Paris ed., no. 36,125; Monday, Apr. 26, 1999; p. 10.

"Religion, then, is not all bad; and even devout religiosity has some saving graces. But on the whole and in the main? The legacy and the future of dogmatic religion seems to be indicative of considerably more harm than good."--Dr. Albert Ellis, from "The Case Against Religiosity", published by American Atheist Press.

All I have to do is look at my life to see the truth of this and if that isn't enough, I simply have to look at history: Holy Horrors

[Warpy]

3. Joe Hill said it best

You will eat
By and by
In that glorious place above the sky (way up high)
Work and pray
Live on hay
You'll get pie in the sky when you die (That's a lie!)

[tatertop]

50. Thank you, I was trying to place that very verse

[pointblank]

4. Good Post

It rings very true IMO. What other way can you explain the blatent hypocrisy of the so called "Christian" politicians?

[ProfessorPlum]

7. What makes it so weird is how desperate and angry they get

when the animals aren't taking the food.

They present us with "the bread of life" when most of us just want some bread. When we question their motives, and don't immediately become fundamentalists, ready to rally around their banner and do whatever they tell us, they really lay down the anger against our "secular society".

I feel like saying, "dude, it's not that I don't think Jesus had some good ideas. I just don't trust YOU".

[Warpy]

11. It's a defense mechanism

I was a night nurse for 20+ years and I heard many, many people voice a concern when they were sick and scared that they'd been sold a load of hooey by a bunch of sharpies and that it offered little comfort to them when they were in danger of facing it all.

They went back to being believers when the sun came up on yet another day.

I think a lot of people suspect it's a load of rubbish, that nobody knows for certain what happens to us after we die. It's the last total mystery. However, there's enough doubt that they don't want to have confirmed that they overreact when somebody else mentions it.

[wickerwoman]

75. That's really interesting...

I think a lot of people hedge their bets. They tell themselves they believe in God because they see the reward (go to heaven) but they don't see the reward of atheism. As if God wouldn't be able to figure out that you were shamming. I don't think it's totally conscious- in many ways it's just an ingrained habit- until they face a real crisis and they have to admit their doubts.

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. Whenever someone tells me they know the answer

and that I must follow their exact version of Jesus, then I know that they don't know shit.

[FreedomAngel82]

64. And if you

check out the book of Proverbs over and over Solomon warned to check things out for yourself. Do not blindly follow someone because they claim to be like you because they could be leading you astray. Seems many fundies could follow that one.

[Loonman]

5. This is where I prefer the Jews

They believe that what's right here and now is important, and if you are good while you're alive, the rest will take care of itself. How? Not important. An afterlife concept leaves all sorts of failsafes for horrible behaviour as long as you balance it out before you die.

[ProfessorPlum]

8. The concept of the "mensch"

has got to be one of the greatest contributions to society ever.

There are plenty of Christians who put emphasis on earthly justice, too. ("works", some call it, but that's a whole seperate debate) As well as others.

Even atheists and agnostics have been known to work for earthly justice (/sarcasm), and by Spong's arguments above, have the best reasons to.

[fishwax]

84. you don't even have to balance it out

according to the many of the fundies: simply saying the prayer and being "born again" takes your sins away for good.

[No Exit]

6. Good points!!

Just tell the idiots that they'll get their "reward" after death. That way they won't mind getting out of the way while YOU get YOUR "reward" right here and now.

Just the same as the alleged promise of "72 virgins in the afterlife" for suicide bombers. Just the same. But the "Christian" idiots have never been able to see the obvious parallels between their own behavior and that of the "crazy" Muslims.

[WI_DEM]

9. They don't want us to be Christians, but Fundamentalists

True Christians try to serve by Christ's example--not judging others and serving the poor, ect. Fundies constantly judge others and seem to care only about themselves and the betterment of the affluent classes.

[ProfessorPlum]

10. yes, indeed, that's a good distinction to make

I think the difference is a fundamentalist is more easily controlled - they'll swallow whatever shit the power structure is shoveling, right?

[YOY]

34. Thank you

n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

65. Exactly

They want us all fighting with each other while they contiune to "rape" us. There are plenty of great Christian's out there. Look at Jimmy Carter.

[madeline_con]

83. That point needed to be made. Thank you. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. I haven't read Spong yet. I really

need to get to it.

[LittleClarkie]

71. Marcus Borg is another one. Here are some of his titles.

# Jesus: A New Vision (1987)
# Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time (1994)
# The God We Never Knew (1997)
# The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions (1999)
# God at 2000 (2000)
# Reading the Bible Again for the First Time (2001) (this is the one I started to read)
# The Heart of Christianity: Rediscovering a Life of Faith (2003)

[GreenPartyVoter]

86. I've read "Meeting Jesus" and "Heart". Both are wonderful!

[kath]

13. Spong wrote an awesome editorial or LTTE awhile back that I forwarded

onto friends. I remember it was very good - but my memory fails me as to whether it was anti-war or anti-religious-right. The name Bishop Spong however stuck with me as someone to remember for fighting the good fight.

[ProfessorPlum]

17. I've never in my life found someone who talked about

Christian concepts in an adult way - instead of continuing the line of BS we use with children - like him. I have a feeling that before too long I'll have read all his books, and be waiting for more. His writings lately seem to be increasingly urgent sounding - I think he really believes that something is wrong in this country, and I agree with him about that.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

72. You CAN'T talk about Christian concepts

in an adult way.

Just like you can't talk about Easter Bunny concepts in an adult way, or Santa Claus concepts.

It's faith-based. No brains. No intellect. Just "belief" (IMHO the worst word in the English language)

[LittleClarkie]

76. He had a good theory about Pat Robertson

that Pat is not telling us what God thinks, but rather what Pat would do if he had God's power. Telling us more about himself than God, said Spong. He's not my favorite author on the subject. I prefer Borg. But that was a damn fine insight. Yeah, Spong can be quite interesting sometimes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Taht is the core of liberation theology too

and why it was stamped down by JP II

[ProfessorPlum]

18. It sounds to me like JP I may have been down

with liberation theology as well.

[Cleita]

19. This offering of your sufferings to Christ, or bearing your

cross in life was taught to me. Maybe in the Middle Ages when you and your meager possessions all belonged to the Lord of the Manor, and you lived at subsistence level at best, this kind of reasoning was the best hope the priests could offer the serfs living on the land. This was saying that life was a burden, but after you die, it's going to get a lot better.

[GreenPartyVoter]

20. There is a reason why charismatic, evangelical fundamentalism

appeals to the poor and oppressed. :(

[ProfessorPlum]

27. How sad that they so often turn away from those

who are offering them some modicum of earthly justice and follow the flags of those who only offer them invisible justice.

[raccoon]

22. Great post. Recommended. nt

[Freedom_from_Chains]

23. It has always been a truism that religion is a tool of the

aristocracy to control the peasantry. That is what it was specifically created for.

[ProfessorPlum]

25. "The Opiate of the Masses"

Though there does seem to be an urge towards finding a meaning in life built into us. That that urge is twisted to the purpose of the existing power structure doesn't surprise me too much, I suppose.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

43. And the urge to find meaning in life should be nourished

But not by becoming wrapped up in a delusion and then acting like it is reality. And then on top of that, expecting everyone else to except your delusion as reality. That is more closely related to insanity.

[AlienGirl]

46. A patient in severe pain needs an opiate... nt

[RandomKoolzip]

24. Fantastic post. Crystallizes a lot of what I've thought about the role

of religion in America since I was young. It also helps to point to those studies pointing out the disparity between the living conditions of countries who are "close to god" and those who choose to rule using liberal precepts, i.e. the First World.

[progressoid]

26. Blessed are the Cheesemakers

Other Person: I think it was "Blessed are the Greek."

Gregory: *The* Greek?

Other Person: Apparently he's going to inherit the earth.

Gregory: Did anyone catch his name?

Big-nose: I'll thump him if he calls me Big-nose again.

Cheeky Man: Oh shut up, Big-nose.

Big-nose: Ooh! Right! I warned you...I really will slug you so hard...

Wife: Oh it's the *Meek*...blessed are the Meek! That's nice, I'm glad
they're getting something, 'cause they have a 'ell of a time.

[thespiritualzebra]

51. lol

Some Monty Python doesn't date. You've pulled up just the right Scripture for the discussion at hand:)

[LittleClarkie]

77. I believe in Cheesus

Gouda is good.

[Flubadubya]

36. This is why I favor Buddhism and the concept of reincarnation...

If you don't get it right this time you WILL be back the next time, and the next, and the next... until you do. Until we all do.

So many "Christians" buy into this afterlife thing as a way to get an "easy out". They even take it to the extreme that you can live an absolutely horrible life, get absolution upon your death bed, and you've got it made! Isn't that just wonderful?

Sorry, but justice is justice and there is NO escaping it.

[FreedomAngel82]

66. This Christian doesn't

Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I can do whatever I want and get away with it. It doesn't mean I can go out and steal, murder or whatever. I will still be held accountable for my actions. Oh and I also believe in reincarnation (I've had a few memories too). I only think death is the easy way out such as with the death penalty (which is also murder in of itself) and if you're like an Islam martyre or something.

[StoryTeller]

39. This is not an accurate characterization.

This sort of "delayed justice" mentality may be true of some people, but if you take the time to find a Christian (conservative or progressive) whose faith is very deep and real, you'll almost always find a person who IS very concerned and compassionate about people now, in this world. The Bible is full of admonitions and urgings to care for the poor, to promote justice, to defend the helpless. Jesus' own concept of bringing the "kingdom of God" to people emphasized genuine life and healing and reconciliation of relationships in THIS life, not just "in the life to come."

There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians who are not actually following Jesus and his teachings. It's not for me to decide who those people are--that's between them and God. But you can pretty much figure that if it doesn't talk AND walk like Jesus, it's probably not Jesus.

And by the way, this division that you sense in Christianity between now and heaven, between the physical and the spiritual--well, to give you a brief history lesson, that's a result of some heresies that crept into church doctrine way back in the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE. If you study the history of Christianity, you can see a lot of argument going on during that time about a lot of this stuff. The church dealt with some of it, but other teachings persisted to this day.

So to characterize ALL Christians as showing this sort of lack of compassion or an uncaring attitude because of our belief in an afterlife is very misrepresentative of the heart of the Christian faith. The heart of Christianity has a longing to see the lives of people improved and cared for NOW as well as the belief that after death there is an eternity of healing and restoration with God. The hope that Christianity offers is that even though this world may be full of injustice that not even the most concerted human efforts can overcome, that there is a God who does indeed care and who does and will bring justice into every aspect of life--whether in this life or in heaven. It's a both/and belief, not one or the other.

I totally, freely admit that a lot of my conservative, fundamentalist brothers and sisters have done a bang-up job of making Christianity look like the meanest, rudest, and most hypocritical religion in the world. Many of them have been taught these wrong ideas and are afraid that they lack the knowledge or understanding to refute them. I often am frustrated and sometimes even angry at their behavior, yet I also pity them. Most of them don't understand the damage and harm they are doing. Others have merely put on Christianity like a robe, thinking it will give them power and control over others. This is nothing new, I'm sad to say.

On behalf of them, I ask your forgiveness. There is much of what has been done in the name of Jesus that is reprehensible. I can understand why so many have become bitter or distrustful of anything to do with Christianity. But I also know in the core of my being that what you are seeing is not the true way of Jesus. And not all his followers are like those who yell the loudest in this country. In fact, most are not like that at all. There are thousands and thousands of Christians around the world who give their entire lives to serving others and improving conditions for life now. Real Christianity is characterized by a genuine compassion and regard for humanity, because in our beliefs, that is the heart of God.

[ProfessorPlum]

47. Yeah, check out the other posts

Most of the points you make have already been made.

Perhaps "fundamentalist" would have been better for the title - but it wouldn't fit. In any case, I mean the kind of person that relies on top-down theology and delayed justice. And takes any definition of "good" that the higher-ups choose to give them.

This reminds me of Ivan Karamazov's quest for justice, and his descriptions of how not even heavenly justice would satisfy him. That messed me up for quite a while when I read it as a teenager.

[FreedomAngel82]

67. I know how you feel

I've tried talking to other Christian's who are more conservative and all they seem to care about is silly issues in reality. Such as "intelligent design," gay marriage, the Ten Commandments (Jewish laws by the way) and abortion. They don't really follow what Jesus said about things. And than you have people like Pat Robertson and James Dobson who are simply following the Old Testament and in that retrospect if you think about it will make them Jews. They don't really get things with history of the religion. Such as with the Ten Commandments they were given to the Jews when they were freed from slavery from the pharoah of Egypt because they weren't used to being free and being able to worship and it's a transition into their new lives. I know lots of people who do missionary work and not just preaching either. In the first/second week in January a group is going to help Katrina victims clean up and my dad is hoping to go if he isn't having back problems. I wish more Christian's would care about real issues like that instead of whether or not someone says "Merry Christmas," gay marriage, abortion etc. *sigh*

[blonndee]

95. "following the Old Testament...will make them Jews"

Actually, they are more specifically like the Pharisees, who were, yes, Jewish, but it was against them that Jesus most often railed...the religious hypocrites and the rich. Whenever someone gets all Pharisaical with me I just start quoting something from this to them: (But they never get it. They just CAN'T see THEMSELVES the way they are, just like the Pharisees couldn't. No wonder they strung Jesus up.

Matthew 23:13-15; 23-32

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.

26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'

31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt.

[Raydawg1234]

40. I disagree, the Christian churches use the fear of death......

in the same way that Bush supporters use the fear of terrorism, To perpetuate their institution. What does someone say to you when you tell them you never go to church? "You're gonna go to hell." What does a Bush supporter say when you disagree with them? "Your Un-patriotic." (this is there way of saying your gonna go to hell) Thus, Fear is the main instrument of control behind any church, and repressive government. I submit that the liberal polices in the early twentieth century were not a result of disbelief in the afterlife, but a freedom from fear!
"There is nothing to fear, except fear itself"

The enemy of the church and repressive government is individuality, because it does not contribute to the survival of the institution. That is why I believe that individual spirituality, living by a set of moral principles, is Righteous. We cannot force our beliefs on others, we must learn them on our own. Anything else is tyranny.

[mitchum]

42. That's why Christianity and Islam are both slave religions

Of course, they are both offshoots of Judaism which provided much succor to an enslaved people. The skygod will reward you later.

[skids]

44. "Karma" would be this point personified.

To take it to another religion, specifically those that involve reincarnation, the concept of a karma that pays you back for past deeds in future lives would be exactly what he's getting at. The two beliefs don't have to go hand in hand... but they often do.

It can cut both ways though -- it can also serve as a rationalization for people to do good when there is no forseeable benefit, when plain old human sympathy isn't enough. And no, it doesn't get any better in secularism -- often the act of "working for the betterment of society" is one done completely on a "faith" of sorts (totally non-religious, but also equally non-rational) that it is actually worth it to do so.

[Tsiyu]

48. Spong is one to make you think

He's always good for a new take on old ideas.

[Missy Vixen]

52. I love Bishop John Shelby Spong

>I'm in the middle of reading an excellent book called "Resurrection: Myth or Reality" by an Episcopal Bishop named John Shelby Spong.<

I've read several of his books, most notably, "Why Christianity Must Change or Die" and "Rescuing The Bible From Fundamentalism."

He's the greatest.

Julie

[Ladyhawk]

55. I just got done watching a British movie called The Second Coming.

It basically reached the same conclusions you have: Belief in an afterlife makes us waste this one. I have to tell you that the http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?movieid=60034859&trkid=90529">movie totally blew my mind. Originally, a DUer recommended it to me, but it's been awhile and I can't remember who it was. I added it to my queue a long time ago, so I really wasn't sure what to expect. All I can say is "Wow!"

Note: I actually turned on the subtitles because I'm not familiar with British colloquialisms. Plus, the accents were heavy. I couldn't understand the initial conversation between the two protagonists! :D I needed to read what was being said so I could understand words in context, like "quid," "bollocks," etc. Anyway, it was definitely a thought-provoking story.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

59. Ladyhawk - assistance please...

this one?

The Second Coming (2003)
Steve Baxter (Christopher Eccleston) is found on the roadside in a confused and illogical state. As Steve rambles on that he's the Son of God, Steve's friend Judith (Leslie Sharp) can't help but wonder if he's gone off the deep end. Knowing that he'll need proof to make everyone believe he really is the Second Coming, Steve arranges to present himself to the public. Miraculously, they believe him, and his "revelation" creates a media whirlwind

[Ladyhawk]

79. Yes, that one! Very cool.

I think it was a British made-for-TV movie. It is in two parts, both of which are included on the DVD.

Another thing I liked about the movie is that it cast (casted? I don't think so...hehe) real people. There wasn't a single talentless model in the flick. :) The people were ordinary-looking like most of us.

[FreedomAngel82]

68. I think a belief in the afterlife

helps a lot with having peace of mind of what will happen to you once you die. I know with me I fear the unknown. Whether it's something simple like going to get new classes for college or whatever. It's just something that's there. :shrug: I have had experiences with the afterlife and helping other spirits cross over and the like and do believe in a heaven and knowing my family and friends who have died are somewhere happy and I will get to see them again helps me to go on in this life. And that reward someday as well of being with God and in His presence from being a good person.

[spinbaby]

78. That's just it--the afterlife IS unknown

It's unknown and unknowable and there's nothing we can do about that. The only thing we can be sure of is that, after we are gone, others will go on. The best we can do is to make the world a better place for those who come after us.

[Ladyhawk]

81. I understand the need to believe because I've been there.

The movie I mentioned took me through that stage again. It was incredible. I found myself hoping that the new son of God would make everything all right and that everyone would end up in a happy afterlife.

I don't want to offend you. All I want to do is tell you about my journey and how I came to certain conclusions.

My personal belief is that "faith" is the easy road to assuaging fear. In fact, I believe religion was created to control through fear (fear of hell, etc.) and also to provide comfort. It's the old carrot-and-stick routine and it works very well on the masses.

Marlene Winell, in her book Leaving the Fold, said that an acceptance of life's unknowns is a path to maturity. Learning to deal with fear of the unknown is a growing experience.

I was a skeptic for many years before I decided there was no afterlife. An internal argument finally decided the whole thing for me: People want to believe in an afterlife in order to calm their fears. Once I took this into account I realized that there was absolutely no proof of an afterlife and until there is, it would be intellectually dishonest for me to believe in one.

Then came the fear.

During my formative years, I was told that if I believed in Jesus, I would go to heaven and that if I didn't I would go to hell. During the years leading up to my decision that there was no afterlife, I had a horrible fear of hell. Finally, I realized that a belief in hell was just as absurd as a belief in heaven, so at least there was that. But still, I had been promised I would live forever! I felt betrayed!

I spent many, many months in a state of abject terror when I first realized that this life is all I have. I read books about fear. I contemplated death and the nothingness that comes after. I thought about what I wanted to accomplish in this life. I realized that I needed to confront various fears head-on instead of hiding behind a simplistic, faith-based belief system.

Finally, after many months, my fear lessened. I am able to contemplate death now. I am still afraid, but I realize that death isn't the scary thing. The scary thing is wasting one's life. So, I got over my fear of singing in front of other people. I went ahead and had my surgery. I'm in a fight-to-the-death with my depressive disorder, PTSD, and OCD. I want to live, really live. I'm still struggling to bring my actions into alignment with my new beliefs, but at least I'm trying.

Through my struggles I learned two very important lessons: 1) Religion is all about fear (both imposing it to control and controlling it to impose) and 2) Beware of that which you want to believe.

[Hello_Kitty]

56. No need to protect the environment either

Just choke down the smog as you trudge to your slave-wage job under black skies. Armageddon's coming posthaste and you'll love the flora and fauna up in Paradise anyway!

[FreedomAngel82]

69. Not true

As a Christian I'm a huge enviornmentalist freak (that's one thing I loved about Kerry). This is my home and if I'm not going to care for it who will? Even in the old testament in Genesis God tells Adam to care for the earth and the animals and plants. We have been neglecting our planet and it's shameful.

[Hello_Kitty]

73. I'm really talking about the Left Behinders in that post. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

60. I prefer Marcus Borg

Spong's belief system wanders too far afield of Christianity for me. He almost takes too much away for me to even consider him a Christian. I mean to be considered a Christian, don't you sort of have to believe in Jesus the Christ?

He does some mighty fine insights on Christianity, however, like his comment about Pat Robertson revealing more about himself than about God when he said God wouldn't care if Dover had a disaster. Robertson was revealing what Robertson would be like if HE was God. That's a mighty fine insight, I must say.

Fundamentalist make my teeth itch, but so do those who wander too far afield in the other direction.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. Exactly

And it's about control. Try to find the films "God in the White House" and "With God on Our Side." It shows more about this too. How the republicans use the fundie votes for power and than turn around and backstab them and they fall for it hook, line and sinker. Now all they have to do is claim to be anti-gay, "pro-family" and all this other stuff and they can get in. Never mind they don't do anything Jesus said. "Give that which is Ceaser to Ceaser and that which is God unto God", helping the poor, love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek etc. I could go on. Of course we're a nation of idiots so most of the people won't figure it out.

[Hyernel]

80. Because Christians tend to do as they're told...

...regardless of the contrary reality. Sometimes I think preachers are actually Australian sheepdogs wearing some clever disguise. I can almost hear the barking.

[BoneDaddy]

87. Spong is amazing

PP kudo's on JS spong, he is a wonderful, rational Christian.

I tell ya, after reading these posts by some of your detractors, I get disappointed as some of the so called atheists bash religion and christianity, in particular. They, in their supreme knowledge, make the same mistake as the fundamentals do... they get caught up in trying prove/disprove the mythological trappings of Christianity.

Of course bad things have been done by Christians and of course good things have been done by Christians. This all or none, black or white approach to a philosophy of living is no different than the mind set of the whacko fundies in the world, except their "religion" is their set of beliefs, their guiding principles, their mythology. It's like the old saying goes "by not making a choice, you are making a choice" The same rules apply in that "by not believing in a specific mythology, you are believing in a mythology...just one of a different kind". Their gods, instead of an entity of ethereal presence, are replaced by the gods of logic and rationality.

I subscribe to the middle road and to our biology which dictates a need between the abstract (philosophy, religion, spirituality) and the rational.

The teachings of Jesus have little, really, to do with the mythological trappings and more to do with an evolution of consciousness. Jesus as with Buddha, Lao-tzu and other great spiritualists and mystics understood the deep connection and interconnectedness of life. They taught a new way to live in societies that were dominated by war, suffering and tyrannical leaders. What the stories of Jesus speak to is not some elite club, but to how to consciously live.

[susanna]

90. Fabulous summation.

John Shelby Spong is a exhaustive thinker. As a Christian and as a thinker, I do not think that the two are exclusionary. His work has always resonated with me.

[Tactical Progressive]

93. That was just fantastic

I've been trying to find a way to put that into words for a long time, and you did it beautifully, as does the excerpt you quote from John Shelby Spong.

Thank you.

[kineneb]

96. Interesting take from inside the religion

I just finished my annual reading of Hyam Maccoby's The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity. Then I pulled out P.W. Roberts' In Search of the Birth of Jesus and my copy of the Gnostic gospels.

The "gnostic" Gospel of Thomas beat Bishop Spong to the draw, somewhere between C.E. 50-125:

(3) Jesus said: "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you,and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, the you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

I put more store in Thomas than much of the approved cannon.