How Dems are screwing up the Patriot Act issue

[gulliver]

Simple. They are not asking Bush to prove that the provisions of the Patriot Act have accomplished anything. If he can prove that some provision of the Patriot Act has netted some terrorists, then that provision could stay. My guess, the Patriot act hasn't given us a single terrorist who would not have been caught without it. But Bush is allowed to skate by without proving otherwise.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but Bush is winning the Patriot Act issue. If it passes, it's a victory. If it fails it is a sword over the head of the Dems should another attack occur.

[lvx35]

1. Good point.

I think your right on about the direction of the big fight they need to take, the tearing through of Bush's walls of secrecy to just see what's really going on. Its a win-win situation. If Bush can actually show he is doing decent things, we at least don't have to worry so much about it all...But the smart money is on you, that there is in fact no real great things that have been done.

[bowens43]

2. I disagree.

If it fails it will fail because the republicans refuse to allow debate by extending the Patriot Act for 3 months. It is painfully obvious that Bush is playing politics with the patriot act. If it passes with out the safeguards being discussed ,then the Democrats lose That's the only way they lose. An out right failure will be a loss for Bush.

[gulliver]

3. You will see it that way, and I probably will too...

... but it's fairly obvious from Bush's stance that he knows he is in the driver's seat. He is.

If the Patriot Act fails to be re-upped and there is a terrorist attack, the attack will be blamed on Dems filibustering the Patriot Act. If the Patriot Act succeeds, it will be a lesser victory for Bush politically, but will be touted as proof that he still has clout.

I don't think he can be beaten if we don't show the emptiness of his claims about the importance of the Patriot Act. We aren't doing that. If we did that, Bush would be shown to have exaggerated again for political purposes, and the shock would also help in the Spy-gate case. If we don't do that, both the Patriot Act and the Spy-gate case will rebound in Bush's favor. He will be Dirty Harry and Andy Sipowicz taking liberties with the rights of scumbags, not a lying sack of crap.

[JuniperLea]

4. That would give him more opportunity to lie

The only way that would work is if there was a Q & A session with someone who can ask real questions.

He'd lie. You know he would. He loves to lie. He lives to lie.

[Ksec]

5. I doubt the domestic spying will help.

And the paying of news outlets to run fake stories, and the journalists being on Bushs payroll, and bush OKing torture. And a whole bunch of other stuff theyve been busted on. Give me liberty or give me Death is a good quote to latch on to today.

[Johonny]

6. They dont have too

The 9/11 just returned their grades on reforms since 9/11. They were not kind to the president nor congress. Anyone who bothered to listen to the panel knows the Patriot act failed to address most of the major failures that lead to 9/11. It also contains too many pointless acts that can lead to easy corruption. That the president would not want to fix this simple measures is another sign of his laziness.

[gulliver]

9. I think we have to beat him personally.

He has made a big show of how much the expiration of the Patriot Act would cripple the war on terror. In his last press conference, he caustically chastised the Senate, particularly the Dems, and used the issue to beat up on the filibuster. He smacked those who voted for the Patriot Act in 2001 but were against it now as waverers who were either wrong then or wrong now. That message needs a response.

Bush is a known wolf-cryer, and he is crying wolf again. No proof, just naked scare tactics. People are watching him this time, though. If he wants to keep the Patriot Act, he needs to prove it has done something, not just spread fear. If it is shown that he is crying wolf yet again, his credibility goes under for the last time. If he isn't held to a standard of proof for his drastic claims, he wins.

[Johonny]

12. I'm always watching

If the people aren't watching most of the time it's their fault. The democrats aren't our mothers.

[MrModerate]

7. Nope -- don't buy it . . .

If it fails to pass, it's Bush's fault because he tied congress' hands by his --completely unreasonable-- demands. Reasonable people (I realize this excludes much of Schimpanski's base) can hardly argue with a 3-month extension to work things out. Many moderates are already uncomfortable with the law, primarily (IMO) because the sacred word "Library" is involved.

Our guys end up looking statesmanlike (sure, it's a stretch) and Bush looks like a putz.

The fact that the Act is still a shitty law can be addressed once we have a chance to win in Congress -- shortly after 2006, if we don't stupid ourselves out of the best opportunity we've had to toss the 'Licans out since 1994.

And if there's another attack, it will be Katrina writ large. Not only will the shock of whatever the event is be extreme, but the followup will (inevitably) be bungled. The message will be: BUSH IS INCOMPETENT! HE CAN'T PROTECT YOU!!

[proud patriot]

8. B.S. republicans were the ones to reject an extension

so as to debate the issue .

pukes let it expire

[gulliver]

10. Bush has nothing to lose. This gambit is already reaping ...

... political rewards. Few will care about the subtleties. If a terrorist attack occurs, Bush will simply play the video where he caustically denounces the Democrats for filibustering the Patriot Act. No one will know or care anything about the details. Bush will be prescient to all of the Republicans and a bunch of the less informed independents. We aren't protected by "fig leaves." Bush is throwing punches. They have to be met with punches.

[seabeyond]

11. the minority group, dealing with touchy subject of terrorist, screwing

up? as they have stopped the patriot act thus far, with the powers that be

do tell us how the democrats are screwin up.... saying with sarcasm

[LSK]

13. wrong, they are getting more hearings on it in the next 6 months

The Republicans wanted to put it to bed. Finalizing it with no say.

This is a win for Democrats.

[gulliver]

14. Saw it. Like it. Doesn't mean I am wrong though. It's exactly ...

... what I wanted to happen.