Why are we suprised? RE: Spying

[Texasgal]

Haven't they ( the government ) been doing this forever?

Why are we so shocked?

I am perplexed, maybe I just need some help with this? :shrug:

[stepnw1f]

1. yuh... I think Help Would Be good (nt)

[Lindacooks]

2. What Bush is doing violates the Fourth Amendment and the

checks and balances system built into the Constitution.

It's not the spying that's bad, it's spying on Americans without a court order. The way it was set up, the Executive Branch (chimpy) had to go to the Judicial Branch (the courts) to spy on an American citizen. There was a secret court set up that only denied four requests so far, and the process took only a few hours. The only reason chimpy et al wouldn't go through that is because they were probably spying on people like John Kerry and Cindy Sheehan, that the court wouldn't allow.

Wiretapping American citizens without a warrant is illegal.

[Texasgal]

5. I understand that it is illegal

and please... don't get me wrong. It upsets me to no end. My question was...why are we shocked about it? Hasn't the government been doing this forever?

[Lindacooks]

15. Well, maybe Bush I and Reagan did. That wouldn't surprise me.

But President Clinton and President Carter DID NOT. THEY followed the law. This law was one of several put into effect after Nixon and Watergate, to try to stem overreaching Presidents and to bring them under the system of checks and balances.

[SpiralHawk]

3. I think people are surprised they got caught

and got caught so red-handed violating the 4th Ammendment to the US Constitution.

That's what's so surprising. That the NeoCon-BushCo cabal was so stupid about it.

[Inland]

4. What's shocking is that Bush says it was right and he's going to continue.

Sure, the government does bad things, sometimes with complicity, but once caught the executive usually has the sense to pretend that it'll never happen again or that he will stop it.

Bush gets caught, says he's going to keep on doing it, says that he has a secret interpretation of the law that he wasn't ever going to tell anyone, and threatens the people who blew the whistle with prosecution.

That's shocking. He's left no choices except letting him do as he pleases or impeachment.

[Texasgal]

7. Thank you...

This makes sense. I just coudn't figure out for the life of me, why some folks were so shocked. Now I understand. Thank you. :hi:

[tlsmith1963]

10. Yeah, That's When I Became Angry

I was joking about the spying & actually feeling kind of giddy until Bush arrogantly said that he spied on us & wasn't going to stop. I've been angry ever since.

Tammy

[SmokingJacket]

6. I'm only surprised that they admitted it.

I assumed Bushco was doing this from the beginning. However, I've come to see that for lots of decent people in government, it's really, truly, a line that shouldn't be crossed.

So no, "government" hasn't been doing this forever. Clinton's administration did not spy on its own citizens without a warrant. And that is a big deal.

[Texasgal]

14. I was under the impression that

that alot of administrations had spied on Americans.... of course it was always a "tinfoil" thing. Am I incorrect?

[Synnical]

8. Oversight

Three branches of government and all that . . .

[C_U_L8R]

9. No shock here

I'm just annoyed.... no .. I'm pissed
that both republicans and democrats
aren't joining together to impeach these crooks
throw them out of the District of Columbia
and toss them into Federal Prisons.. for good.
The common good.

[ddeclue]

11. Listening in without a warrant isn't just impolite, it's a felony.

from my post at www.brainshrub.com/president-wiretap:

Listening in without a warrant isn't just impolite, it's a felony.

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (USC Title 50 Chapter 36 Subchapter 1) specifically prohibits the government from doing what the President has secretly ordered and it is a serious felony with major penalties.

The President has publicly confessed to this felony on national television. He ordered government agencies to engage in spying on thousands of American citizens without a warrant when the Congress made specific provisions in law to cover all circumstances, even emergency situations so that the government could listen in for up to 72 hours before obtaining a warrant, plenty of time to find and convince a judge.

There is no excuse for this action, yet the President has done so anyways.

That the President has colluded with others to do so, also makes this a conspiracy subject to fine and imprisonment up to 5 years per count under USC TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 19 § 371.

That he has chosen to hide it from the public, the Congress, law enforcement agencies, and the Courts through secret findings and secret orders may also be a case for obstruction of justice under USC TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 73 § 1512 paragraph (b).

The penalties for illegal wiretaps are severe, up to 5 years and $10,000 per count. The President has admitted to reauthorizing this violation of the law 30 separate times and thousands of phone calls have been intercepted.

Did anyone ever see the movie The Firm? I think we've just found the way to shut down the firm of Bendini Lambert and Locke.

The time has come for Prosecutor Fitzgerald to step forward and finally take the gloves off.

It is definitely time for the Congress to convene impeachment hearings.

More information:

FISA Act:

USC Title 50 Chapter 36 Subchapter 1

§ 1809. Criminal sanctions

Release date: 2005-03-17

(a) Prohibited activities A person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally—

(1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute; or

(2) discloses or uses information obtained under color of law by electronic surveillance, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through electronic surveillance not authorized by statute.

(b) Defense

It is a defense to a prosecution under subsection (a) of this section that the defendant was a law enforcement or investigative officer engaged in the course of his official duties and the electronic surveillance was authorized by and conducted pursuant to a search warrant or court order of a court of competent jurisdiction.

(c) Penalties An offense described in this section is punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both.

(d) Federal jurisdiction There is Federal jurisdiction over an offense under this section if the person committing the offense was an officer or employee of the United States at the time the offense was committed.

[Batgirl]

12. I wouldn't say it's surprise necessarily

It's more like achieving new levels of outrage.

[Amonester]

13. We knew about it, and we're not shocked more than we've

always been (here).

Still are. Nothing new here.

Alas, millions (not here) never thought they would, and if we'd tell them so, they would all have immediately said that we're all "conspiracy the-rrrr-orists" like in "It can't happen heeeerrr" "Nah." "Never in R'murka". "ya must be kiddin'". Guess we "tried" to tell... NOW only NOW they're "a wakin'??". Years after??

The other point was ** tried to silence the press (NYT). OUTRAGEOUS!!
Free press, anyone?
Not (more) shocking for us, we already knew (and still shocked after all those years...).

Where's that #1 idiot Jeff G. these days? (Who cares...)