With all the spying, it's time to bring up RFID chips aka SPYCHIPS again

[liveoaktx]

I've been reading the book "SpyChips" and it is appalling what corporations are doing to put in RFID chips in every product. The difference between an RFID chip and a barcode is that each RFID chip has a unique serial number which uniquely identifies just that item. The book points out a number of patents that companies have taken out with a view to using the American public as guinea pigs for marketing tracking. That is to say, they want to collect information on every person based on their buying habits and will be able to do this with RFID chips which would, again, uniquely identify not only the person but what he or she has purchased.

And, currently, there is no way to disable RFID. So you could be taking home products that, with a reader, would beam information about you.

Seems to me that this is timely to bring up again, loudly, to demand that RFID be disabled, at the very least after leaving the store, although I don't even like the idea of being tracked and spied upon for my habits while IN the store.

[...of J.Temperance]

1. I can't believe that

If you buy a product from a store and RFID is involved, that when you take the product home it's spying on you and passing on information.

Heck, we'll be having the implanted chips in people and pets next...

[liveoaktx]

2. Okay, smarty, the point is that there is no way to disable the RFID right

now. If someone WANTS to have their pets and people chipped, fine, but those who do not ought to not have this forced on them simply because they buy the product.

I'm saying there needs to be a loud pushback on this and it's a good time to do it with the spy furor going on

[Divine Discontent]

11. scary story,

I think you didn't comprehend the manner of which poster #1 meant, "i can't believe that", it was said with exasperation, not doubt.

I do NOT want spied on for everything I do either... sick stuff.

[tx_dem41]

12. The RFID chips can be used for "good" and "bad" purposes.

I don't think at the moment, that retail outlets have the technology to track outside of their stores (now they are used more for inventory purposes and security purposes), but there might be a time in the future they could be used for more nefarious purposes. I believe that time is a lot further off than you and I imagine. Legally, there really is no leg to stand on with fighting them other than maybe requiring notification that an item is "chipped".

[liveoaktx]

17. It's not just retail items-take tolltags for example

Tolltags manufactured by FasTrack EZPass, etc use RFID tags. If there were (as there probably are) readers located in various vantage points along the tollway, your movements could be tracked.

here's an article on RFID from Caspian

and this

<snip>
The Auto-ID Center's vision is to revolutionize the way we make, buy, and sell products by merging bits (computers) and atoms (humans) together for optimal mutual communication. The system also uses the Electronic Product Code (EPC), a unique numbering scheme for every object in the world and an Object Name Service (ONS). RFID tags are built into objects like food, clothes, drugs or auto-parts, and read' by devices in the environment, e.g., in shelves, floors, doors."

"The Physical Markup Language exists as part of the 'intelligent infrastructure.' The intelligent infrastructure which we envision automatically and seamlessly links physical objects to each other, people and information through the global Internet. This intelligent infrastructure has four major components:electronic tags, Electronic Product Code (EPC), Physical Markup Language (PML), and Object Naming Service (ONS). Electronic tags refer to a family of technologies that transfer data wirelessly between tagged objects and electronic readers. Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) tags, often used in 'smart cards,' have small radio antennas,which transmit data over a short range. The Motorola BiStatix tags, an Electromagnetic Identification (EMID) technology, uses capacitive coupling to transmit information. Electronic tags, when coupled to a reader network, allow continuous tracking and identification of physical resources. In order to access and identify tagged objects,a unique naming system was developed..."

</snip>

[tx_dem41]

19. Thanks for pointing that out. And, since most tollways are at the...

very least quasi-political organizations, then there might be a legal case there. The one thing is that with that technology, I don't see how you can actually keep the tollway authority from collecting the technology. You could possibly limit their use of it for any other reason than toll collection.

[liveoaktx]

21. You bring up an interesting issue with this- on the one hand, with

tolltags, you could decide, no, I'm not going to use a tolltag, because implicitly I'm agreeing that my information can be collected. But as more and more items use RFID, for most things it won't be optional.

For example, suppose RFIDs start being put into plastic milk cartons. I read several years ago about Microsoft's plans to make intelligent appliances-at that time I couldn't imagine how it would be done but if there was a reader, say, in your refrigerator, it could see when you were out of milk or needed other things and spit out a list or perhaps verbally remind you. I actually don't want my refrigerator telling me what I should do! Some might like this, though, for convenience. But I'm not going to put my gallon of milk in the microwave to disable the tag. And it then is no longer optional for me to purchase an RFID -enabled item.

IF marketing companies are aggregating data about me, through RFID they could know a lot about my tastes, what I purchase, even, if they spy on me in the store, HOW I most and best react to advert displays or might even attempt to influence me as I come near something (think Minority Report)

RFID manufacturers and those companies which already have patents to use them for their own purposes would LIKE the public to not think about this and see it as an issue far down the road. I agree with the authors of the book, however, that it would be better to push this NOW before it's ubiquitious.

[sandnsea]

24. Well we do

Pets are being implanted with chips fairly regularly. Some schools are using chips on student id cards that the kids have to wear. There was even a post on DU the other day from someone thinking of chipping their teen-age daughters, or something along those lines in case I'm remembering it slightly wrong. Then there's Britain and their monitoring drivers 24/7. We are so close to Logan's Run it is downright freaky.

[JuniperLea]

3. EGADS! This is spooky...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5669778&mesg_id=5669778

I had just posted the above-linked thread, then came to this thread. Jeebus save us.


My boyfriend promptly peels all those suckers off everything when we get home from any store. I know they have the purchase information, but it just gives me the creeps that they can drive down the street and read a device and know what I have in my home.

My dog has a chip. Scary how they suckered me into that one.

What about our cell phones?

Welcome to Eastasia...

[liveoaktx]

4. And, what happens when the chips are embedded in the items?

If they weave a chip into the clothes, for example, you're hardly going to snip out a section of your garment; in fact, the book says that there are plans to actually weave in RFIDs using thread strands.

Or what if the chip is embedded in plastic.

I don't see right now how to avoid it coming, but I am saying it needs to be disabled, by choice, by the consumer.

[acmejack]

5. A chip has helped me retrieve my lost dogs.

Maybe I can make money selling RFID jammers and maskers, sounds like there could be a market. Good, I need a job!

[liveoaktx]

6. Although the idea of jammers and maskers is okay, why should it be on the

CONSUMER to have to carry a jammer with them when they shop? Or have one, what,at the door? No, the chips should be DISABLED at the choice of the consumer and it ought to be on the store to provide such a function at the very least as you leave.

[JuniperLea]

7. Our Gov doesn't think that way

Like with all TV being digital by 2009. They expect everyone with an analog broadcast receiver TV to buy a digital TV.

[liveoaktx]

8. Although that's a separate "pushy" issue, privacy and spying is the issue

here.

[JuniperLea]

15. Yes, but the thought process is always the same with them

[liveoaktx]

18. I agree... and I don't know if it is a government issue so much as a

commercial issue right now (although the Real ID act will bring unique serialized RFID chips to driver's licences). Maybe it's a matter of a bill that would need to be brought to Congress to require restrictions on RFID.

[RB TexLa]

9. But being able to scan an entire shopping cart with one swipe of a scanner

would be nice

[liveoaktx]

10. There's an issue with that...

There are plans with RFID to have reward systems that would be more sophisticated versions of store cards. When I was a kid, for example, every item in a grocery store was marked. Then, it became that the shelf was marked and now, quite oftne, even the shelf does not show that information. Suppose that, based on someone's shopping habits, one person was charged X for an item, and another Y.

I don't disagree that, for some, the convenience of having their groceries automatically totalled without, say, standing in a line, might be worth it, EVEN THOUGH they themselves could be watched and tagged and have their info aggregated into a shopping profile for marketing use.

HOWEVER, if someone doesn't want that, and doesn't want to bring RFID HOME, the tags should be optionally DISABLED or DESTROYED upon leaving the store.

[MadHound]

13. Actually I believe that RFID chips can be disabled

Using either microwaves or heavy duty magnetics(on the magnitude of the old de-gausing machines). Other than that, I don't know.

[liveoaktx]

14. No, they can't.. There is currently no device that can disable them

Even if it were true that the others disabled them, you could hardly, say, microwave a couch.

From a technology standpoint, for geeks here, I'm guessing these are some type of ROM or PROM. If so, then there ought to be a way to reprogram them.

[ToolTex]

22. LiveOak, the time to get upset was during the last legislative session.

They passed Texas law to include RFID in automobile inspection stickers, starting September 2005, for cars with minimum limits liability insurance.

I would also mention that during the late 1990s the Carlyle Group bought up all RFID patents and rights, acquiring several small companies owing RFID components.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3995.htm

[liveoaktx]

23. I understand that and in fact my own Representative (Dem) VOTED for it

but it is NOT past the time to be concerned about what is happening. If that was the case, then we'd all just lay down on the ground and get walked over since laws for all kinds of crimes and unconstitutional happenings have been passed. I rather think that the time is good NOW to bring this up in order to, if not reverse, at least put in safeguards for the future.

[EC]

16. A few questions

would magnates deactivate them?

Is the chip in the packaging or the product?


on edit: Another ?...Who pays for this? Does this add to the cost of merchandise, just so the makers can market the item?

This goes to far for marketing...my ears ring now, what's going to happen when we have 100's of low signals emanating from every home?

[liveoaktx]

20. No. According to chaper 12 "The Chips That Won't Die"

in the book "Spychips", the authors have done tests on microwave ovens, magnets, hammers.

<snip>
we've heard many tag-killing suggestions over the years, including running the tag through the wash cycle, passing a magnet over it, or subjecting it to a VHS tape eraser. Unfortunately, these are not reliable fixes. Magnets and VHS tape erasers have no effect, and there are commercial laundry tags that can withstand high temperature washings and dryings.
</snip>

[The Flaming Red Head]

25. There's grocery stores and those damned discount cards

but then there's debit and credit transactions and they match it all with age, income level, buying habits, typical political preferences, marital status etc. Every commercial is specifically targeted. Marketing is a science and they've been collecting all our data for years.

Years ago I knew we were fucked when working as a marketing research interviewer I started running into questions about whether people voted, or participated in community activist groups, or went to church., etc and right there in the middle of a questionnaire on dog food and whether Fido prefers canned or dry, or chunks; the people would look at me like I was crazy and ask me what that had to do with dog food and I felt bad about it too.