Dean is the Ralph Nader of Upper Middle Class White Liberals

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

The rich and upper middle class white liberals got pretty scared by Bush, for good reason, so they decided to pick an "outsider" to challenge the DLC - Dean, a former member of the DLC who had been cut out at some point.

Dean is socially liberal - pro-choice and pro-LGBT - but economically he's right-of-center - he's not going to do anything that might hurt the 401ks, stocks, and white-collar careers of his supporters. He's not a scary leftist, like Kucinich or Sharpton, and they won't be embarrased at the office to tell their boss they support Dean. Kerry and Dean are the same on almost all the issues, but since Dean made a bunch of anti-war speeches, they are throwing their support behind him.

The Dean people are forgetting a very important fact. There is more to America than middle class white liberal professionals. They underestimated how Dean's right-of-center support for things like NAFTA and corporate trade upset the unions, who are a significant part of the Democratic party. They don't realize that Dean's looks and personality are likable to them - he's one of them - but doesn't do much for black people, and doesn't do much for the white working class either.

You trash the other establishment candidates like Kerry, but Dean is the exact same thing, he just didn't make it as high up as Kerry. You are polite to Sharpton, but never take him seriously, and you expect black people will just fall in line. Since Kucinich is white, you don't even bother to be polite, you just call him ugly white trash and say he yells too much. And of course Gephardt, the traditional union candidate, is just a Bush whore right? After all, lots of blue collar workers supported the war in Afghanistan and many Iraq as well, and Gephardt represented them. So you discount them as sheeple and really expect your self-righteous anti-war but still "fiscally responsible" Howard Dean is going to set the party on fire?

Just like the college activists, the Greens, and the vegan hippies decided to split the Democratic vote and go with Nader, if the professional white liberals vote for someone nearly as unacceptable to so many groups in the Democratic party, we may all be in trouble. And if you continue to trash Gephardt for his pro-war vote, along with the majority of Americans who supported the war, and try to placate the workers with fairy tales about the "good NAFTA", Dean will win the primary, the Teamsters will make a deal with Bush, black people will stay home, and the Democrats will be the minority once again.

I'm willing to compromise and make common cause with all the Democratic groups. Upper middle class white collar professionals better realize that you don't get to control the terms of the debate in the Democratic party.

[Woodstock]

1. Where to begin...

So many inaccuracies, so little time.

[lifelong_Dem]

Yeah, all Dean cares about are middle-class white professionals...

...that's why he supports universal health care. :eyes:

[DoctorMyEyes]

2. bullshit!

you typed a lot of words that could have been summed up with one: bullshit

[DagmarK]

3. Who counts.....you've lost me again.

Actually...in capitalist America, money and white DO make the rules. Sad, sad state of affairs.

And that's if what you say is true. I sure did see A LOT of retired non-yupsters at our meetup for Dean. And college kids. and people who have never entered the DEBATE of politics ever in their lives....

And, I don't think anyone CHOSE Dean to run. He wanted to be prez -- and he threw his name in the hat.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. Here's one view on Dean's supporters

The Dean base largely is what pollster Stan Greenberg calls the "secular warriors" - largely white, middle- to upper-middle class, non church going, non gun-owning voters. With his singular - among major candidates - opposition to the Iraq war, he became the favorite of more Democrats who intesely dislike and mistrust George W. Bush, dating back to the 2000 election controversy...

Albert Hunt, WSJ, July 17

[TheBigGuy]

57. Sounds like the yuppie (now BoBo) vote

..pretty much so. Or what David Brooks calls the BoBos..Bourgois Bohemians.

[LSdemocrat]

4. Then why did Dean win the Wellstone Award from the AFL-CIO?

http://www.aflcio.org/mediacenter/prsptm/pr01082003.cfm

[Iverson]

5. you must have meant this

The United States Senate is the James Bond of auto-shutoff dehumidifiers.

[poskonig]

6. I'm confused.

You're saying that Dean is a bad candidate because white upper-middle class (whatever that is) males support him.

One, you provide no evidence to support the thesis that the demographic in question is statistically what is driving the Dean campaign.

Secondly, you provide no evidence that Dean is 1) anti-labor or 2) anti-black. Are you just making this crap up? Last time I checked, Dean supports fair trade, affirmative action, blah blah blah.

Third, you make it sound like Dean supporters will split if their candidate doesn't win. ALL of the Dean supporters I have talked with, online AND in person, have promised to support the winner of the Democratic primary.

Hence, the only way I could conceive your argument to have *any* basis in fact is if Judis & Texeira's "ideopolis" theory is true. However, you'd have to accept the fact that ideopolis voters ARE the not only a political prize, but the future of the Democratic Party.

So where specifically is your beef?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

14. I did NOT say that Dean is anti-black

What I see with the Dean campaign is the social concerns of the middle class educated professionals being catered to, and the other groups in the Democratic party - workers, unions, minority groups, and white working class Southerners, are being ignored.

Dean was and is a strong supporter of NAFTA - yes I've read the ONE article posted here a million times - which may sound just fine to white-collar professionals, but it was the biggest sell-out of the unions in the modern Democratic party. I don't see how the unions will get on board with yet another Democrat that supports these overtly anti-worker, anti-union trade agreements. His promise to add environmental and labor protections is just fantasy - we've been promised that twice before, why should we believe it a third time? How will it be any different than "Most Favored Nation" status which has always been a joke?

Dean is exactly the demographic of DU, but not the demographic of most Americans, and I don't think enough people here realize that. Dean's made a lot of money on the internet, guess what, that's a very skewed population right there.

Dean supporters are throwing their weight behind a small state governor with almost ZERO national support from any major institutions, like the AFL-CIO, the NAACP, any of the government unions, or the military - you have middle class white professionals - and their college aged kids - and so far that's pretty much it.

Dean is a million times better than Bush, like most of the candidates, but if Dean is to win the primary and beat Bush, you need someone outside of that demographic on board, or we all risk disaster.

I want to see Dean make a concession to the unions and the white working class, that's what can do it for me.

[theriverburns]

18. I want to see Dean make a concessions

to the unions and the white working class, that's what can do it for me.

I am with you 100% on this. We have had 20+ years of corporate, ruling class appeasement. We need a candidate who will address this instead of get in bed with them.

[Eloriel]

41. Ah, then you want

a Green.

Be careful about believing what the rabid anti-Dean posters say about Dean. It's rarely got even a grain of truth to it. CHeck him out for yourself.

Eloriel

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

43. Eloriel, you don't want us to go Green

I've read your threads, you are smart enough to understand exactly what Dean is saying in his article about "fair trade".

Will you admit that Dean is proposing sending more US jobs overseas? That's exactly what he says. Hell, come out and say it, tell me it will help us in the long run, and at least I will have more respect for the pro-Dean people who are being purposefully deceptive about where he stands on the issue.

Dean, the one time DLC-er, is promoting the same DLC line that they have been pushing for 10 years - how is he ANY different? The DLC has ALWAYS said that they will add environmental and labor restrictions to the trade agreements, and they never do.

Is there any possible reason I should believe Dean now?

[acerbic]

49. Since you claim "that's EXACTLY what he says",

you should be able to produce a direct quote of where exactly he says that, if you're not just spewing bullshit. Well...?

Will you admit that Dean is proposing sending more US jobs overseas? That's exactly what he says.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

52. right here

I still think NAFTA was a good thing. I think the president did the right thing. But the problem now is that, 10 years into NAFTA, here's what we've done. We have shipped a lot of our industrial capacity to other countries. And the ownership pattern, and the ratio of reward between capital and labor in those other countries is what it was 100 years ago in this country.

So the reason for NAFTA is not just trade. It's defense and foreign policy. That is, a middle class country where women fully participate in the economic and political decision making of that country is a country that doesn't harbor groups like Al-Qaeda, and it's a country that does not go to war. So that's in our intersect. That's why trade is really in our long term interest. What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class.

1. Dean says NAFTA is good.

2. Deans says we need NAFTA for defense.

3. Dean says we need more transfers - they transferred our industrial capacity, and Deans wants more.

How am I misrepresenting ANYTHING that he said? Dean supports have posted this over and over again, and Dean is saying it in clear and simple English.

Also, the excuse that he will add environmental and labor protections in the free trade agreement is EXACTLY what Clinton promised before he passed it, and didn't, and it is exactly what the other Democrats proposed later, and didn't do anything about.

Why should I believe Dean, a long time DLC-er and pro-NAFTA politician, when he isn't saying anything different than what Clinton and the DLC said before?

[acerbic]

71. No, that is not a direct quote of where he said anything like that,

...only more of the same: a whole block of text and your claims of what it says.

1. Dean says NAFTA is good.

...AND says what the problems with it are.

3. Dean says we need more transfers - they transferred our industrial capacity, and Deans wants more.

Which part in that block of text says that Dean wants more of our industrial capacity transferred? E.g. this one: "What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class." ?????????

Nope, in in clear and simple English it says that he wants something else than industrial capacity transferred: the elements that are needed to make a middle class.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

75. like service jobs? white collar work? telemarketers?

What else could he possibly mean? He says transfering industrial jobs wasn't enough to make a Mexican middle class, so we need is to transfer the elements that are needed to make a middle class.

In the context of his support for NAFTA, what else could that possibly mean other than middle class jobs?

[acerbic]

94. Maybe possibly it COULD mean WHAT HE IS ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THERE:

"And the ownership pattern, and the ratio of reward between capital and labor in those other countries is what it was 100 years ago in this country.
...
That is, a middle class country where women fully participate in the economic and political decision making of that country"

= Influencing economic, social and political changes that would help forming a middle class, e.g. labor laws, education standards, anti-discrimination measures etc.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

102. What will he transfer to do that?

He's going to transfer our ideology? Good, then can we keep our jobs? He's talking about transfering jobs, and then he says we need to transfer more. I can read simple English - if he meant something else, why didn't he say it?

It seems to me that Dean and most of Dean's supporters are more than happy to lay off working class people here at home, and justify it as some sort of charity operation for the poor in other countries.

If the pollster I quoted was correct, than I would guess it's because many of his supporters are upper middle class white professionals, whose jobs are not threatened by outsourcing and trade agreements like NAFTA, at least not right now.

So when we say it's a big issue, a deal breaker, WE are the ones being devisive, even though it's Dean and Dean's supporters who are out of the mainstream of the Democratic party on this issue.

Funny thing is, I remember this exact same argument about 1994.

[acerbic]

109. So you say that he's talking about transfering jobs,

I show a more likely interpretation and you say that he must be talking about about transfering jobs because he's talking about transfering jobs. Do you know what kind of "logic" that's called (clue: "round")? :-) See post #98...

What will he transfer to do that?... He's going to transfer our ideology? Good, then can we keep our jobs? He's talking about transfering jobs

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

117. Here's the exact quote from Dean

"What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class."

Can we agree that when he says "industrial capacity" he is referring to the industrial jobs that were sent out of the country? They didn't send the factories over there, they built new ones.

So when he talks about transferring other "elements" what am I supposed to believe except he means more jobs, this time perhaps non-industrial jobs? If he meant something else, he could have said it.

Perhaps if I was a Dean supporter, I would automatically assume he meant something nice, but since he was talking about NAFTA and jobs, I think there's only one logical conclusion.

You know what could end this whole discussion? If Dean would say something about this issue besides this ONE ARTICLE that has been posted EVERY SINGLE TIME I ask about Dean's jobs policy.

Let's hear Dean say in public and on the record exactly what he has planned for American jobs.

[acerbic]

119. Oh for Cthulhu's sake...!

"What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class."

Can we agree that when he says "industrial capacity" he is referring to the industrial jobs that were sent out of the country? They didn't send the factories over there, they built new ones.

So when he talks about transferring other "elements" what am I supposed to believe except he means more jobs, this time perhaps non-industrial jobs?

That is extremely desperate misparsing: you got as far as interpreting it as "other elements". Exactly what part of it don't you understand? "Other" means "other" as in "not the same". :crazy:

If he meant something else, he could have said it.

I told you twice what else it could and more likely does mean and your response is: it must mean what you suppose it to mean because that's what you suppose it to mean. He says "elements that are needed to make a middle class"... do you claim that that must mean jobs transferred from USA to somewhere else, and therefore "logically" that the necessary and the only necessary element that is needed to make a middle class in any country is jobs transferred from USA? Do you?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

123. Word Games

Dean's position is clear, his supporters post this article on a regular basis, read it for yourself and interpret it how you wish.

It seems to me that Dean supports sending American jobs overseas, and I think a lot of other people think the same thing.

If this is not what Dean supports, let him get on record in public exactly what he has planned for our jobs.

If he states for the record that he is against sending more jobs overseas, I will come onto DU and APOLOGIZE to Dean and everyone of his supporters - is that acceptable to you?

[acerbic]

126. I don't believe that

If he states for the record that he is against sending more jobs overseas, I will come onto DU and APOLOGIZE to Dean and everyone of his supporters - is that acceptable to you?

It's more likely that you'd just claim that his statement means that he wants to send more jobs overseas because that's what you suppose it to mean...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

129. so you are personally attacking me and saying I'm lying

whatever. read this thread tomorrow, dispassionately, and then tell me who is engaging in baseless personal attacks.

[acerbic]

130. You do it yourself...

"so you are personally attacking me and saying I'm lying"

That's a direct quote of you claiming that I'm saying that you're lying and since I haven't said so, that makes your claim... :think:

[Eloriel]

152. I don't get it.

You're a thoughtful, bright guy. You seem unable (or is it just unwilling?) to get it about what Dean has said here. Or do you just prefer to mischaracterize, for mischaracterization's sake? Or is it that you don't do "nuance"?

1. Dean says NAFTA is good.


He says it needs to be changed, that it's a PROBELM we have transferred so much of our industrial capacity that it has resulted in an ownership pattern that is reminiscent of the Gilded Age.

2. Deans says we need NAFTA for defense.

Dean says that helping other nations achieve a middle class is in our best interests for defense and foreign policy reasons. I agree.

3. Dean says we need more transfers - they transferred our industrial capacity, and Deans wants more.

He absolutely does not. Just as your previous 2 renditions of Dean's positions were wrong, this one is too. VERY wrong. Nowhere has he said this. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, you put in your environmental and labor controls, you go a long way in stopping the flow of jobs leaving because, what's the POINT for them? None. At the same time, it enhances the ability of trade to better the lives of workers in other countries by raising their standard of living.

Of course, if you're looking for a complete overturn of NAFTA, then Dean's not your guy probably. OR, better yet, if you like him otherwise, go enter some thoughtful posts into the blog on the subject.

But please, quit misrepresenting his positions, 'kay? It's SO unattractive in a DUer.

Eloriel

[poskonig]

65. Your trash is baseless.

You provide no statistical data concerning the make-up of Dean's supporters.

You provide no data illustrating Dean's positions on blacks and trade. You supply no issue stances of Dean's supporting your position, nor do you give examples from Dean's long tenure in office.

What your garbage comes down to is this:

"Dean is supported mainly by rich suburban yuppies. Why? Because I say he does, and you have to take me on faith, myself being the fountain of all wisdom. In addition, given this conclusive fact handed to me by the Gods, I can deductively infer, using non sequitur, which is just as valid as modus tollens, that Dean is anti-worker and anti-black, or at least doesn't care about them too much, since he is pushing a pro-corporate agenda that rich suburban professionals support. Even though professionals are a core Democratic voting block, they are insistent on pushing a pro-corporate agenda. Why is this nonsense true? Because I say so."

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

78. your rebuttal is useless

See my post number 7 for a mainstream press account from a pollster. You have a better source?

Dean's position on trade is well known, and I've been quoting from the single article that Dean supporters have posted here time and time again.

Did I mention ANYTHING about Dean's position on blacks? No, I didn't, I posted about my impressions of Dean supporters.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

96. did you even read my post?

"They don't realize that Dean's looks and personality are likable to them - he's one of them - but doesn't do much for black people, and doesn't do much for the white working class either."

Did I say Dean doesn't do anything for black people? Try reading again - do you see the words - "looks and personality" ?

Dean's position on NAFTA has been posted on this thread at least 3 times, and it's been posted on DU 100 times at least. I'm not saying anything about Dean's position on NAFTA that isn't in his article.

[stickdog]

73. YOU are being divisive. WE are supporting the most viable candidate.

Nobody in your GOOD column stands a chance.

But thanks for playing.

[MODemocrat]

81. I have to admit, I'm a Dean Supporter, with no excuses

I feel Howard Powered

~~~~~~~Go Dean~~~~~~~~~

[acerbic]

8. So you want someone who is pro-war and fiscally irresponsible...

That makes the choice rather obvious: Dumbya!

So you discount them as sheeple and really expect your self-righteous anti-war but still "fiscally responsible" Howard Dean is going to set the party on fire?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheDonkey]

10. LOL

Wow, that was a good read.

I honestly laughed for a minutes about the Dean supporters are polite to Shapton because he's black, yet hate Kucinich and call him white trailer trash who yells too much. LMAO!!!!

Good stuff. :crazy::crazy:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. have you read any posts here for the last 3 months?

I've never heard someone's looks talked about so much as Dean supporters have Kucinich's - they sound like Republicans talking about Kerry's hair.

[Cha]

29. I'm a Dean Supporter who has never made any comments

about the way anyone looks(even lieberman)...but I have seen a lot of posters swimming in the shallowness of pettyness on Dean's looks!





I happen to think Dennis looks fine!

[Le Taz Hot]

46. Nor have I . . .

nor have HUNDREDS of Dean supporters here at DU. But, by all means, let's FOCUS and FOCUS HARD on ONE DUer, who is no longer on this board and harp on it for three months.

[MODemocrat]

90. I really like Dennis too

Right now, I'm supporting Dean, but would love to have both of them on the ticket.

[Ellen Forradalom]

I admit it!

I'm the one who said Kucinich looks like Barry from the Rutles!
http://www.lyrics.com/r/rutles,_the/the.rutles.jpg

[Ellen Forradalom]

112. I admit it!

I'm the one who said Kucinich looks like Barry from the Rutles!
http://www.lyrics.com/r/rutles,_the/the.rutles.jpg

[cjbuchanan]

11. Got a little bit of anger?

I do not know you source, but I have not heard Dean (or any candidate) say the things you seem to think he is saying.

As for a conspiracy of "rich and upper middle class white liberals" I must ask you to provide evidence. I know a lot of people that support Dean and none a one of them is rich or upper (or even lower) middle class. Yes, more then half are white and would describe themselves as liberal, but, as far as I know, they did not start supporting him due to a conspiracy.

Let me make a suggestion, instead of throwing around wild clams about a candidate, talk in a positive manor about the candidate(s) you think should win. Remember, no matter who gets the nomination, they will be better then Bush and they will need everyone on this board to work for them. If you are saying that you will not do this if Dean wins, then you acting just like "the college activists, the Greens, and the vegan hippies" that you do not seem to like.

It is always a stronger argument if you give people a reason to vote for someone instead of against someone.

[w4rma]

12. Gov. Dean's position on free trade (pro-fair trade)

...
HOWARD DEAN: No. What I said-- Well, I'll tell you what I said in a minute. But I'll follow my train of thought here, most briefly. Free trade has benefited Vermont a great deal. Here's the problem with free trade, and here's why I support fair trade, and why I want to change all our trade agreements to include human rights with trade, as Jimmy Carter included human rights with foreign policy. I still think NAFTA was a good thing. I think the president did the right thing. But the problem now is that, 10 years into NAFTA, here's what we've done. We have shipped a lot of our industrial capacity to other countries. And the ownership pattern, and the ratio of reward between capital and labor in those other countries is what it was 100 years ago in this country.

So the reason for NAFTA is not just trade. It's defense and foreign policy. That is, a middle class country where women fully participate in the economic and political decision making of that country is a country that doesn't harbor groups like Al-Qaeda, and it's a country that does not go to war. So that's in our intersect. That's why trade is really in our long term interest. What we've done so far in NAFTA is we've transferred industrial capacity, but we haven't transferred any of the elements that are needed to make a middle class. The truth is, the trade union movement in this country built America, not literally-- Well, they did do it literally with the Brooklyn Bridge and the Empire State Building, and things like that. But they built America because they allowed people who worked in factories and mines to become middle class people. And America was the strongest country on earth, and still is, because we have the largest middle class on earth, with democratic ideals. That is, working people in this country, by and large, feel that this is their country, and they have a piece of the pie, and it matters what they think.

Now, if you want trade to succeed, ultimately, we're going to have to create a climate in other countries that are beneficiaries of NAFTA where they can create a middle class with democratic ideals. That means we should not have any free trade agreements, and we should go back and tell the WTO that "you need also to include environmental standards and labor standards." Here's why. Today, if you run a factory in Iowa-- Let's suppose you spend a million dollars a year disposing of all the waste products that come out that are toxic. You can go to another country and dump all that stuff in the river and on the ground. So America, because we have environmental standards, and we're willing to trade, straight out, free trade, with countries that it's cheaper by a million dollars, before you even get to wages, to do business there, I think that's a big problem. We're essentially saying, "Our environmental laws are strict. It's cheaper for you to go into business someplace lese. Go ahead." That's the wrong thing to do.

The same with labor standards. I don't know why we should be shipping our jobs offshore when kids can work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for a small amount of wages. And isn't that what America fought against 100 years go? Wasn't that the victory of the trade union movement? So it seems to me that my position makes sense. We've gone through 10 years of free trade. We've gotten to a position where we now need to change our trade agreements.
...
http://www.jfklibrary.org/forum_dean.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=46131&mesg_id=46131&page=

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

19. Dean: "I still think NAFTA was a good thing"

Has Dean EVER said anything else about so-called "fair trade" besides this one article? I've seen it posted here about a million times.

Do you have ANYTHING else at all?

[w4rma]

21. Dean promotes foreign labor unions

He says fair trade can deter terrorism
...
"Trade is not just about money, it's about defense," Dean told 50 or so union workers at the Barley House restaurant in downtown Concord. "If you help create middle class countries that believe in democracy . . . you have created a country that is not a threat to the U.S., nor will they willingly harbor a group like al-Qaida. They have too much to lose."

In a brief lunch-time appearance, Dean put traditional union concerns - health care, pension reform and workers' rights - at the center of America's economic future. Dean has often described himself as representing "the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." The people assembled for yesterday's lunch represented the core of that base. They cheered loudly at any derogatory references to the president. Most responded favorably to Dean's suggestions that the government assume a bigger role in health care and worker safety.
...
http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/0507_dean_2003.shtml

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

23. "send jobs overseas or they will become terrorists and attack us"?

you must be kidding me - this is the most insulting thing of all - a national security excuse to fire American workers.

You people just have no idea how insulting you are being do you?

[w4rma]

28. Don't put quotes around that and pretend it was a quote, WhoCountsTheVotes

You don't think I understand how folks can try to misrepresent another candidates position as you are doing right now, WhoCountsTheVotes? Don't try those tactics on me or on DUers.

As I've said on other threads, I think that this position is a START. It sure is a heck of alot better competing against the folks who live in Canada, New Zeland and Europe than Mexico, India and Asia. I also think that considering the fact that the middle and lower classes here in America are losing ground every month that we had better take steps NOW to reverse the trend. I think that his "fair trade" position is a good COMPRIMISE. Personally, I'd like to see out-right tarraffs, but Dean only supports them in the situations similar to the ones that President Jimmy Carter would support them under.

...
HOWARD DEAN: What I would say is, we've gone the first mile. The first decade has worked, for exactly the reasons you say. I don't disagree with the premise of the free traders. I had this discussion with Bob Rubin, and I said, "Here's the problem. We need an emerging middle class in these countries, and we're not getting one. So now is the time to have labor and environmental standards attached to trade agreements." He said, "You're totally wrong. I can't disagree with you more." I said, "How would you address the problem?" I haven't heard back. You have to deal with this problem. It's a serious problem.

JOE KLEIN: What if they say no?

HOWARD DEAN: Then I'd say, "Fine, that's the end of free trade."

JOE KLEIN: What do you mean, that's the end of free trade? Then we slap tariffs on these countries?

HOWARD DEAN: Yes.

JOE KLEIN: So you'd be in favor of tariffs at that point.

HOWARD DEAN: If necessary. Look, Jimmy Carter did this in foreign policy. If you can't get people to observe human rights, and say that we're going to accept products from countries that have kids working no overtime, no time and a half, no reasonable safety precautions-- I don't think we ought to be buying those kinds of products in this country. We're enabling that to happen. I'm serious.
...
http://www.jfklibrary.org/forum_dean.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=46131&mesg_id=46131&page=

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

38. It's not a START - it's the END - Your record is CLEAR

Democrats have been promising environmental and labor protections in the trade agreements since DAY ONE - and you LIED - you NEVER passed them, and you went ahead and passed NAFTA anyway - why should we believe you now?

Clinton said he would, and didn't. Kerry said he would, and didn't. Why should I believe Dean, who is a strong supporter of NAFTA? He says so himself.

Have you even read the article you are posting? Dean is explicit and clear - he wants to send jobs overseas to help other countries build a middle class - and we are expected to trust him that it won't hurt us?

Clinton fooled us, the other Democrats fooled us, I won't be fooled by Dean. Let him get on record AGAINST SENDING AMERICAN JOBS OVERSEAS, or no deal.

[Eloriel]

51. Little problem with your basic premise

Dean is explicit and clear - he wants to send jobs overseas to help other countries build a middle class ...

Several problems, really.

First, you introduce environmental and labor equities and that will stem the flow of jobs overseas.

Second, building a middle class in other countries does not require OUR jobs be shipped there.

Further, as Dean points out, a viable middle class around the world helps the world's security.

FINALLY, viable middle class populations are also required for our own capitalism to continue to succeed, which is something I regret deeply but it's true anyway.

You can rage against it all you want, but there are some basic realities that ARE going to remain in place in the foreseeable future.

Eloriel

[TheBigGuy]

55. Interesting take on Deans' "base".

There is sort of a "class" issue floating around Dean, which Ive posted on before. So its interesting to see that someone else has picked up on that.

I do think you are right about the preceptions on Kucinich. I think there is an unspoken and possibly unconcious undercurrent of class and ethnic bias against himi.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

60. The truth comes out, thanks for finally admitting it

"You can rage against it all you want, but there are some basic realities that ARE going to remain in place in the foreseeable future."

So in other words, us working class people whose jobs are threatened just BETTER GET USED TO IT. Is this Dean's position as well?

I get it - someday, in the glorious future, when Mexico and China are as rich as the US, then we'll get good paying jobs? I've heard that one before. Sounds like Lenin. Sounds like Reagan. Sounds like voo-doo economics to me.

Let's look at what else you said:

"First, you introduce environmental and labor equities and that will stem the flow of jobs overseas." - yes, we've been waiting for ten years now. Does anyone really believe that Dean is going to fail China for environmental and labor reasons? Ha! We've heard that one before.

"Second, building a middle class in other countries does not require OUR jobs be shipped there. " - really? Than what exactly are you planning on transferring over there?

When prostitution is the best paying job for uneducated working class women, THANK YOURSELF. You are obviously not my ally, and no ally to my family either.

[Cha]

33. I have an idea that you are the one who is insulting and not making

a very good case for Dennis!

[Cha]

32. Yeah, I heard him talk about in Iowa! With me own ears.

So now what negative shyte do have to say about my candidate!

[Eloriel]

42. Maybe you wouldn't have to see it so much if you and others

would stop misrepresenting his actual position. Or just stop the Dean bashing period. Your choice -- one of those two options, or endure the repeated statements of his actual position to correct the record.

Eloriel

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. You are misrepresenting Dean's position

Dean is clear and explicit, in the one article Dean supporters keep posting, that he supports NAFTA, he supports sending jobs overseas, and that he says we must do this for defense.

You also ignore the fact that his claims to support "environmental and labor" restrictions in trade agreements in the EXACT same claim made by the DLC for ten years - with ZERO action on it.

So when? After Dean is elected? Yeah right.

I want to be on your team, but I'm not going to do it if your candidate won't show me some solidarity.

[Ellen Forradalom]

13. What on earth silliness is this?

It's garden-variety character assassination. I 'trash other candidates?' I 'yell at Kucinich?' That's news to me.

[Tinoire]

15. Time will tell. I think you're spot on

but it's an ugly truth that I don't think we're ready to deal with.

I've been warming up to Dean over the last few weeks because I realize my guy, Kucinich, may not win and I'm bracing myself in advance to give Dean my support but he would be a very hard sell to the poor and to most African Americans. I'm going to post a few articles in a few about this and about how disgusted and angry Blacks are with the Democratic Party.

If we are not intelligent enough to to run a candidate who can energize all the disillusioned people who either fled for greener pastures or just gave up, we've already lost.

I come from Dean's circle. Fat cat Doctor circle and that's not the image that's going to go over well with the underprivileged, the less privileged or the really struggling class... He would need a serious makeover. My candidate would need a makeover also so please don't think I'm knocking Dean for that.

The Black candidate is Sharpton, that's the person most want to vote for and that's the person and kind of message the party needs to AT LEAST PRETEND to take seriously but the Party can't even do that! All we hear is that Sharpton isn't viable... Sharpton isn't viable. Well, if Sharpton isn't viable, then expecting the black vote for White America's candidate isn't viable either.

Still waiting for 40 acres and a mule... Hear about it every election season... Still ain't seen nothing but the manure when the carpet-baggers pull out of town, empty promises and all...

WHERE ARE MY 40 ACRES AND A MULE?!!!! This is why Cynthia was chased out. She started making too much noise about money being sent to countries where the standard of living is even higher than in the US and we're still looking for that damn mule we were promised!

Reparations? White America doesn't even care to discuss it. White America doesn't think it's an issue- get over it. Why are the important issues only White America's? The only Black candidates acceptable to the Democratic Party are the Uncle Toms like Harold oh-he-speaks-so-well Ford and good little girls like Denise Majette who know when to speak and when not to.

Nader wasn't our problem last election. Our problem was that we aren't really listening. We think it's enough to tell people "but you have to vote AGAINST so and so". Defensive voting if you want- but that tactic didn't work in 2000 and it's not going to work in 2004.

I hope we start listening and may the best man with the support of the people win!

Peace

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

22. I feel very similar to you

I'm a white middle class male, who comes from a working class family - that is still working class - and none of the white professionals seem to understand how badly NAFTA and the rest hurt MY FAMILY - I have sisters and relatives whose living standards are HALF of what they were ten years ago, directly related to these corporate trade agreements. And as a major bread-winner for my family, my own career is in serious jeopardy from H1-Bs and L-1 visas too - then my entire family will be POOR, not just working class.

I fully support Kucinich, and if he drops out I'm voting for Gephardt because I know where he stands on these issues - strongly, explicity anti-NAFTA - but I want to be in with Dean's people, because they are strongly organized and doing the right things about the war.

But Dean's economic conservatism is a deal breaker for me. I'm trying to find a way to compromise on that, but so far the Dean people won't budge. So I'm screaming as loud as I can until they can't ignore me anymore. What other choice do I have?

[Tinoire]

26. Well, I'm screaming right along with you

And working my fingers to the bone pushing for Kucinich and explaining why. Also talking about him everywhere I go. Saying what a sharp guy Sharpton is. Being careful not to say anything negative about Dean or Kerry in case they win.

Gephart... I can't forgive him for the Rose Garden. I can't even forgive Kerry. We need a factual chart at DU clearly summarizing, side-by-side, each candidate's positions, their pros and their cons.

What a mess. Be talking to you soon.

Oh and PS.... PLEASE let me count the votes with you! :)

[Ellen Forradalom]

106. Thank you for restating WCTV's point more politely.

I like Dean's organization and outspokenness. However, I have noticed that there's not much material for outreach to black and Latino voters. Dean did address the NAACP annual meeting, which is a step in the right direction, but he still has a long way to go. I am concerned that a heavy emphasis on civil unions in his equal-rights positions will inadvertently telegraph to organized black constituencies, such as churches, that their votes and values don't matter. Black Christians can be as socially conservative as their white counterparts and many bristle at any comparison between gay rights and civil rights, pointing out that there's no such thing as a closeted black.

I live in a largely African-American neighborhood. In supporting a candidate, I ask myself, "If I set up a literature table at the annual black parade, would the attendees be interested in talking to the white girl?"

[acerbic]

118. That is seriously warped...

I am concerned that a heavy emphasis on civil unions in his equal-rights positions will inadvertently telegraph to organized black constituencies, such as churches, that their votes and values don't matter. Black Christians can be as socially conservative as their white counterparts and many bristle at any comparison between gay rights and civil rights, pointing out that there's no such thing as a closeted black.

Oh goody, he should court one minority by dissing another? If there are some African Americans too to whom discriminating against gays is more important than issues that actually are their business, by all means let them be repukes. I doubt that it would be a big loss in number of votes or especially quality of voters...

[Ellen Forradalom]

156. It's not a zero-sum game

in which Dean scores with one group by dissing another. Rather, it's a question of broadening his appeal by addressing numerous groups directly. Emphasizing one group's issues without treating the others' issues to an equal degree tends to imply that the one's groups votes are more important than everyone else's.

If I set up that table, I have no reason to assume that straight black voters will be any more interested in gay rights than straight white, Latino, Asian or Martian voters. What they will be looking for is evidence that when Dean talks about equal rights, he includes THEIR rights in that definition.

[Tinoire]

141. Whew- Glad for your understanding of the situation

I like Dean's outspokenness also and think he's done a terrific job with energizing his base and using available resources.

We need more Blacks at DU because I feel like some of us are hitting our heads against the wall and being taken as Dean bashers simply for pointing out something so obvious.

I know there's bristling in the Black community about people equating so many rights issues to the civil rights issue but I don't think there's a big problem with that because we brought in the vote for Clinton despite that and voted for Gore despite that- I mean it's just not the most important issue, not even to the majority of church-goers. The most important issue to under-privileged people is keeping a roof over their heads, getting food on the table and health care. The Dems won't have a problem with that issue because we tend to be very 'live and let live' and 'you'll handle your shit with God on your own and I'll handle mine'. It's the same thing with the abortion issue. Just get food on my table and gas in my car so I can get to work- that's my most pressing need. All the rest is embroidery until we fix that. Gay rights don't matter to someone who can't even buy shoes for his kid. Neither does abortion. Neither do tax cuts or tax increases. Neither do concepts like globalization and privatization and all the crap most Dem candidates talk about. Gay rights matter to a lot of Blacks but I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the people we didn't get to the polls last time!


Sharpton's gift is that he cuts through the bull-shit and goes straight to the issues concerning us all, no matter where we are on the scale. Kucinich's platform has the same far-reaching appeal- adressing the simple basics we all need that we don't have in this country! Not if you're not middle/upper middle-class. I'm sorry to my Dean supporting friends but I just don't feel he's ready to draw the kind of people I'm talking about to him just yet. Could he- I'm sure but he needs some work as do they all except Sharpton and possibly Kucinich who knew what poverty was like because his family had to sleep in the car when they were homeless.

I think your last question is really GREAT and one we should ask ourselves as we discuss this: "If I set up a literature table at the annual black parade, would the attendees be interested? (and yes, in the kind of neighbourhood I'm talking about, they'd rather not talk to a white girl from the comfy suburbs who has no idea and can't reach out properly). So important question for supporters of any and all candidates: "If I set up a literature table at the annual black parade, would the attendees be interested?

"If I set up a literature table at the annual Appalachian parade, would the attendees be interested?

"If I set up a literature table at the annual LaRaza parade, would the attendees be interested?

"If I set up a literature table at the annual xxxx parade, would the attendees be interested?

Peace

CAVEAT: In this entire thread, when I say African Americans specifying under-privileged, I am NOT talking about Harold Ford and the Cosby's! I am talking about your garbage man who works 2 jobs, doesnt't have a computer to read DU, doesn't have time to read the paper because he's so tired and doesn't know what the hell he'll do if his kid gets hit by a car. Those are the votes we need. And that's who the Dem candidate needs to resonate with- not the Cosby's- they're already on board and going to vote. The voters I am talking about are the ones who didn't go to the polls in 2000. And while we're on the subject- what about poor White people? What about all the families in Appalachia who could care less about GMOs and don't vote 'cause none of these fancy suits are addressing their concerns, reaching out to them, or even understanding them?! If we had done that in 2000- we wouldn't be here today still crying about Nader having stolen our votes. Peace

[polpilot]

Rant..rant...rave..rant...rant n rave....rant...rant n rave..

Dean '04

[Tinoire]

16. White Liberals Don't Understand How Angry Black Voters are at the Democrat

On edit: Title: White Liberals Don't Understand How Angry Black Voters are at the Democratic Party Establishment

Forget about the smoke and fog spewed by corporate media and chattering consultants of all colors. Let us begin with a stark forecast: The Democratic Party primaries must result in a national ticket that is fit for Black participation. If the party cannot loosen the fatal grip of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC)--the Republican wing of the party--it will die. Black voters and their allies will either purge the DLC from national influence this primary season, or leave the Democrats to spiral into deserved oblivion.

That is what the polling data actually foretell--not an incipient Black conservatism, but levels of frustration with the national Democratic Party so high among Blacks that one more betrayal will likely spark a massive exit, even if the destination is... nowhere, the negative alternative that has already been chosen by a huge chuck of younger African Americans.

First and foremost, Black participation hinges on denying the presidential nomination to the dreadful, racist Senator Joseph Lieberman (CT), the DLC's champion. He will soon be recognized as wholly unacceptable to Black voters, who are the progressive mass base of the party, and to anti-war voters, a majority sentiment within the ranks at this time, nationwide.

<snip>

Black loyalty to Democratic Party structures has been misinterpreted as inertia--a racist conclusion that implies laziness of thought and action. This false reading of African American motives and intelligence has led whites in the Party--and some Black operatives--to miscalculate the cumulative effects of the savage compromises that have been foisted on Black Democrats since Jimmy Carter's "New South" term in the White House. Assuming that Blacks will "stay" simply because they have nowhere else to "go," national Democrats refuse to understand that Rev. Al Sharpton's support derives from deep anger and heartfelt disappointment, not with Trent Lott and the White Man's Party, but with them. Sharpton is dismissed as a mere showman, in effect relegating Black voters to the status of an Apollo Theater crowd on amateur night. The expectation appears to be that Sharpton and his supporters will make a lot of noise, attain emotional release, and return meekly to the fold.

The Democratic Party and its consultants grossly underestimate Black capacity for decisive action, ignoring the sea changes that have swept over the Black body politic in the past. More specifically, they underestimate Rev. Sharpton, who has no personal stake in the Democratic Party's institutionalized structures of Black mollification and is the sworn foe of the Democratic Leadership Council.

<snip>

http://www.counterpunch.org/commentator02282003.html

[acerbic]

25. Aha, from "The Black Commentator", that champion of racial enlightenment

...who keeps preaching that all whites are racist warmongering rightwingers. :eyes:

The "article" contains a lot of assertions about how the Democratic Party "betrays" African Americans, "cohabits with Rightists and racists", is "polluted with the unmistakable odor of white supremacy", "savage compromises that have been foisted on Black Democrats", "the Democratic Party's institutionalized structures of Black mollification" etc. etc. but very, very few actual practical examples of what the party has done or not done that would justify those accusations. Actually, there are none. Can you perhaps tell what they are supposed to be?

[Tinoire]

47. Hmmm. Seemed pretty straightforward to me.

Since not, you should read a few more issues and then maybe you might understand. :shrug: Barring down, maybe a quick trot to your neighbourhood ghett might answer those questions.

Lieberman and the DLC spell electoral non-participation by Blacks. Therefore, he and his ilk are the enemies of all those who seek the broadest, most intense political involvement of African Americans in national life. There can be no compromise with people who poison the political well. Cohabitation with Rightists and racists means death to the Party.

Maybe you'll understand why Black Americans use words like betrayal when reps like Cynthia Mckinney and Earl Hilliard are chased out with the tacit approval, if not help, of the Democratic party and replaced with Uncle Toms.

This issue has been discussed many, many times right here at DU. Did you miss those threads? Did you miss what the majority of the Black Dems here were saying?

Keep reading... Do a search on the McKinney threads... All the information and more right there under your nose.

[acerbic]

56. No answer to the direct and clear question there, so let's repeat:

The "article" contains a lot of assertions about how the Democratic Party "betrays" African Americans, "cohabits with Rightists and racists", is "polluted with the unmistakable odor of white supremacy", "savage compromises that have been foisted on Black Democrats", "the Democratic Party's institutionalized structures of Black mollification" etc. etc. but very, very few actual practical examples of what the party has done or not done that would justify those accusations. Actually, there are none. Can you perhaps tell what they are supposed to be?

Maybe you'll understand why Black Americans use words like betrayal when reps like Cynthia Mckinney and Earl Hilliard are chased out with the tacit approval, if not help, of the Democratic party and replaced with Uncle Toms.

I admit I've never heard of Earl Hilliard: I guess you'll take that as further proof of racism. :eyes: Please remind me of what happened to Cynthia Mckinney: she was chased out from where by whom? Who exactly are the Uncle Toms you claim to have replaced them?

This issue has been discussed many, many times right here at DU. Did you miss those threads?

I remember seeing one previous article by "The Black Commentator", likewise asserting that all white Americans are warmongers. I don't remember seeing any that would answer those questions I asked. I guess you'll just keep claiming that the answers are somewhere, instead of providing even one tiny example... :eyes:

[Tinoire]

69. Acerbic. What an appropriate name!

I told you where to find your answers.

McKinney threads. Once you've gone through those, you might try the Reparations threads. If those don't do it, go to your nearest project and ask a few questions. Yeah, go to your nearest project and tell them the Black Commentator is full of shit and that Denise Majette and Artur Davis aren't Uncle Toms. Do a google on the subject. Talk to people. Listen to Sharpton- he's been so unmincingly clear about it that I'm frankly surprised you missed it- or did you just not care to listen.

If you cared at all about the issue, you would already be aware and wouldn't be asking this silly question in that tone.

You're not looking for a discussion, the acerbic tone of your first post made that clear and is a turn-off to any discussion.

With that type of an attitude, I prefer to leave you to your own research. There are certain horses I don't want to waste my time taking to the water if you catch my drift.

Lull yourself in the delusion that the Democratic Party is so amazingly responsive to Black voters that we've got the vote sewn up. Whatever makes you happy.

[acerbic]

83. I don't know if "the Black Commentator" is quite FULL of shit

...but his/her claims/insinuations that all whites are evil racist rightwing warmongers certainly are full of shit. Feel free to disagree and thereby display the level of your grasp of reality...

If those don't do it, go to your nearest project and ask a few questions.

Can't: there are no real "projects" in this city or anywhere nearby.

and that Denise Majette and Artur Davis aren't Uncle Toms.

I know almost nothing about Denise Majette. A quick search produced this article that I thought would shed some light on the issue but it didn't:
http://home.earthlink.net/~platter/articles/020822-smith.html

So, would you care to tell what makes Denise Majette an Uncle Tom? Or is that too "Because I say so and the secret proof is somewhere and I'm not going to tell where!"?

[Tinoire]

145. Here

Here's a McKinney thread from DU2. It kind of explains certain things. McKinney was a very popular Congresswoman representing a mostly Black district. She had the nerve to say we should stop sending money to Israel when there were so many poor people right here in the USA, say that if Giuliani wouldn't take that Saudi Royal's money offered after 9-11 that she would for the poor of her district, and say that 'Bush did it' before it was fashionable to do so, and- so she got run out. The Republicans in full complicity with the DLC and AIPAC ran her out using various means- redistricting to bring in white voters, an organized effort of cross-over Republican voters to vote for her opponent, and a ton of money from organizations like AIPAC. Oh and also propping up an ex-Republican well-behaved Condy-Rice-type Black woman to run against her. Not to mentione all bizarre incidents on election day such as the main Black radio station being burned down by arson and inexplicable traffic jams on the high-ways going to the polls. McKinney lost and Blacks were LIVID. Especially since the same thing had just happened to Earl Hilliard in Alabama because he had criticized the pro-Israeli lobby and come out in support of the Palestinians (which McKinney did also). Hilliard was defeated using the same tactics and replaced by a more docile JC Watts-type Black. AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SAID NOT ONE WORD. THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY LET REPUBLICANS AND AIPAC GET AWAY WITH THIS. WELL, US BLACK FOLKS ARE STILL PISSED.

If you really care; here's a very recent thread about McKinney.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=50969&mesg_id=50969&listing_type=search

[maxanne]

20. jeepers creepers

So - he shouldn't run because he's a white upper middle class doctor? That makes him irrelevant somehow?

Should we all throw all our support behind Al Sharpton, because he's not a white upper middle class doctor? :eyes: Al's got some good things to say - but as soon as the Tawana Brawley thing starts making waves - he's done. Stick a fork in him.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Maybe We Should Have Never Nominated

A couple of points raised in this thread

1)Franklin Delano Roosevelt and John Fitzerald Kennedy represented the elite. Maybe we should have not voted for them. Hell, Richard Nixon's working class bonafides certainly trumped JFK's priviliged background and dowery.

2) What's wrong with Harold Ford- He's the son of an African American congressman and is in the mainstream of the Democratic party.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

27. who said that? not me

Did I say Dean shouldn't run because he is a rich white (Dean is far from middle class)? No I didn't - you said that.

What I said is that Dean's people seem blind to the fact that they are only one demographic, and that Dean's economic policies are too far right for most Democrats.

No one is paying me, so excuse me if my political rhetoric isn't up to the standards of the paid candidate operatives on here. Ignore people like me at your own peril - there are a LOT of us.

I want to see Dean make serious concessions to unions and the working class, and maybe you can get our vote.

Right now, Gephardt is still ahead of Dean, isn't he?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. I prefer Gephardt to Dean Too

but I think we have different definitions of "right wing" economics.


I am for NAFTA and GATT but I am also in favor of government programs to retrain workers who are displaced as a result.

[Orangepeel]

30. uh, this is a primary...

there are plenty of candidates to choose from. If you can convince people to vote for your candidate instead of Dean, go ahead. But, if your candidate can't beat Dean in the primary, he or she can't beat Bush in the general.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I Figured It Out

Howard Dean is the Paul Tsongas of 2004.



Is John Edwards the Bill Clinton of 2004?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

39. Is Edwards anti-NAFTA?

I looked at his site, and he seems to avoid the issue of sending American jobs overseas. When he comes out against it, then he might pick up my vote. Same with Clark.

[tjdee]

45. Ugh, that site, LOL.

Patooey, LOL, that site.
Anyway, here's what I found.

He feels we should "encourage manufacturers to keep their jobs in the United States, not create incentives to take those jobs overseas. It's common sense,"says Edwards. That quote was in last month's letter to Grassley and Baucus about it when they were looking at international tax bills.
http://edwards.senate.gov/press/2003/0625a-pr.html

Since you looked at the site (ugh), you realize, prolly, that he voted against fast track when his "pro-worker" provisions were taken out. As for NAFTA, the answer is....eh....kinda....he's still politicking on it,methinks. This is from earlier (as in, before June)

"Edwards was asked by a panelist if he supports the repeal of NAFTA. He spoke out against unfairly crafted trade deals but never directly answered the question.

An aide later said that although Edwards opposed NAFTA as a 1998 Senate candidate, he does not believe repealing the deal now is the best way to improve the U.S. trade situation."

http://newsobserver.com/edwards/coverage/story/2639844p-2447967c.html

"Edwards is a bit more of a puzzle. His home state continues to hemorrhage textile, furniture, and other manufacturing jobs to foreign competition, and he opposed normalizing trade with Vietnam and the fast track legislation last year. Yet he has generally kept a low profile on trade, and Carolina contacts of ours report that he is aggressively opposed to highlighting the issue. Additionally, his economic growth plan contains nothing about trade or any aspect of the world economy – a level of disinterest that gives him something in common with Al Sharpton."
http://www.tradealert.org/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=838
Actually, the above article is pretty good, it looks at all the candidates on trade.

[Orangepeel]

40. Howard Dean is the Howard Dean of 2004

Circumstances are unique, the campaign is extremely innovative and no analogy is apt.

[Woodstock]

82. Right on, orangepeel - they only label them when they are afraid of them

Put all the labels you want on Dean, WhoCountsTheVotes - the fact is that anyone, be they green, orange, or purple, would go for a candidate who speaks out and aggressively challenges Bush, but particularly someone who has a real shot at beating him. Dean is a down to earth kind of guy who would appeal to working class voters, African American voters, Latino voters, and white voters. At our last meetup, I saw a far more diverse crowd in this respect than ever before.

So get used to:

AMERICANS for DEAN 2004

[quinnox]

54. I think of

Dean as the Jerry Brown candidate of 2004, with the same result as his candidacy went.

[Cocoa]

35. Dean is good for the party

He has really transformed this campaign, imo, for the better.

Dean has attacked Dem rivals over the war, but it's nothing like the trashing that's done here, it's important I think not to attribute that attitude to him.

Dean has been focusing his attacks on Bush, and he's stayed within the party. And I think he was Gephardt's main contender for the machinist union's endorsement, so he's no enemy of labor. That would be Lieberman, imo.

[LiberalLibra]

36. Whether we like it or not some candidates have a chance to win......

....and others don't. That is just a fact of life!!

If that causes ANYONE to stay at home on election day 2004, well so be it. Just hope they pick and choose their days to come back and bitch at DU because it couldget ugly if Bush is reinstalled.

[Sirius_on]

37. My worry about the dems who will come out of the primary

I worry that we need a canidate to come out of the south. Too many of the canidates that are leading come from the northeast. This wont bode well for the dems. I think a canidate needs to come out of the south or midwest for us to stand a chance. Thats why I am pulling for Edwards...although he is way behind.

[RetroLounge]

44. More bullshit. Thanks for playing...

Dean bad blah blah blah

Middle class blah blah blah

White collar blah blah blah

White males blah blah blah

blah blah blah...

[Tinoire]

48. Black votes blah blah blah

If you do not keep a mind open enough to understand why people are disillusioned with the Democratic Party, how the hell do you expect to draw them back to vote so that we can win?

Or will we just blame Nader again?

[sleepystudent]

58. I agree...

I'm African American and I just lurk on here, but I honestly have to say that I am glad that this issue has been raised. I haven't made up my mind on who I am going to vote for in the primaries and I will definitely vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is next year, but yes, Dean and his supporters make me uncomfortable and while the subject title may have been a little over the top, the dismissive and disdainful responses I am reading to it, as if this is an attack on all upper middle class white men, is ludicrous. The fact that Dean was the (admittedly successful) governor of a state with no large cities, a population less than that of most major cities, and an noticeable lack of racial diversity, makes me honestly wary of him. And yes, the fact that his supporters seem to be overwhelmingly white and upper middle class-people who often see the concerns of racial minorities and the lower classes as an abstraction and who also are less directly affected by the country's turn to the right-witness the discussions of voting on principle-noble in concept, but some of us will be, have been, immediately affected by the last three years and can't run off to Canada or New Zealand if things get even worse. I think this distance from adverse government policy and the idea of "out of sight , out of mind" led to a lot of people voting for Nader, and is leading to some support for Dean. I fear that a lot of these people , if Dean doesn't get the nom, will take their toys and go home, consigning a large portion of this country to unbelievable suffering. As far as I'm concerned, this race is not about principles, or even taking back the Democratic Party-it's about winning. Period. At all costs. People's lives-poor people, blacks and browns, children, single mothers, etc.-these people are hanging by a thread right now. This issue means a lot to me, I'm glad this thread, started up and I will be back!

[tjdee]

62. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

Very nice post.
I wonder about Dean-fan defection if he doesn't win the nomination as well. Dean supporters here tell me, usually, that they are in for the long haul regardless, but I hear over and over how some Dean supporters 'have never been involved in politics before/never liked a candidate before', etc. and when I consider that Dean himself is more than happy to be portrayed in a "me vs. them" fashion concerning he and the other Democrats.

If one of 'the others' gets the nomination, I think it is perfectly reasonable to question where the Dean supporters will go--though Dean has said he'll support the Dem nominee, he doesn't speak for all of his supporters. There's no way to tell, though.

[acerbic]

67. That's quite a reality reversal

I fear that a lot of these people , if Dean doesn't get the nom, will take their toys and go home, consigning a large portion of this country to unbelievable suffering.

...and that fear is based on... what? BTW, if you want to see actual, real, straight-from-the-source-not-only-second-hand-claims threats of taking the toys and going home if you don't get the candidate you want, read the article linked to in post #16.

[Tinoire]

88. Welcome to DU by sleepystudent!

And thank you for speaking up!

:toast:

I'd really be interested on hearing your views on who you think could win this election. Who do you think could rock the vote and why?

I want to win to. At almost all costs. There are some lines my conscience won't be able to cross...

Hope to see you around & peace

[dsc]

146. With all due respect

Every single member of my family who had a job before Bush took office lost that job since. Yes I mean every single member of my immediate family. In addition my dad's pension was reduced by around 7% and his health insurance went up by 50%. All of us found lower paying jobs with either no benefits or worse ones. If you think Dean supporters are divorced from reality you are quite mistaken. And you can rest assured I will be voting for either the winning candidate or the person in second place to Bush (assumedly a Dem) on election day 04.

[RetroLounge]

59. Excuse me?

Who mentioned Nader? (Oh yeah, you did)

People (myself included) are backing Dean BECAUSE WE ARE DISILLUSIONED with the Democratic Party.

So Bashing Dean helps this how?

Or should we just bash Nader some more?

Tag. You're it...

[Tinoire]

80. I'm not bashing Dean- I may end up voting for him after all

I am bashing people who expect Black votes without listening to Black concerns. I am bashing people whose heads are buried so deep in the sand that they think everyone lives in the same lily gilded cage they do and sees the world the same way they do.

I think if you follow the thread, you will see that.

If I brought up Nader, even after 3 years at DU we have a certain contingency still blaming Nader for the 2000 loss because he took a few votes away from us. I have seen very few threads where people discussed why so many Dems, African Americans included, couldn't be bothered to roll out of bed and vote.

I don' play in the candidate bashing games because this shit is too serious. People are homeless, hungry, terrified. People have no idea how they're going to feed their kids a week from now. Many of the people in that situation are Black Americans but we don't hear much talk about fixing those problems. The problems of the poor don't seem to be a major concern in the Democratic Party.

Cynthia McKinney asks why we are sending 8 billion dollars a year to a country where the standard of living is higher than in ours and immediately pops up on the AIPAC radar screen- 2 more mis-steps with AIPAC and they pour a ton of OUTSIDE money into Majette's cofferes, The DLC works with the Repoublicans on the redistricting and presto- Aunt Jemima Majette wins by a land-slide... And people expect Blacks to forget about it? Not only to take it quietly but to vote for the same machinery that allowed this? That let them be screwed by some ex-Republican Alan-Keyes-voting bimbo who can't even meet with her Black constituents and can't work with the Black Caucus?

No I was not bashing Dean. I was bashing the Democratic Party. The only thing I said about Dean is that he has a fat cat image that will not resonate with Black voters.

Sorry if a truthful observation pains you.

Funny, when people say Kucinch screeches, my sole reaction is "hmmm DK, they have a point, we might need a little work on the elocution".

But hey, what the hay. No skin off my nose if you don't understand the point. I do my part for bettering my little corner of the world, and you do yours. Fair enough? I doubt our paths will ever meet anyway.

[RetroLounge]

144. Hmmm. I agreed with everything up until you said...

"The only thing I said about Dean is that he has a fat cat image that will not resonate with Black voters. "

I just don't see the "fat cat image." He's a Doctor. Health care doesn't resonate? How os he a fat cat. I just don't see it. Tell me how it is possible to run for President without raising MILLIONS of dollars.

Is it better to be a fat cat and hide that fact with a folksy aw-shucks slap-on-the-back joe-six-pack image? (Oops, I guess that worked for * in 2000).

and if you've read ANY of my posts, I've never bashed any of the candidates. I was more just sick of all the bashing myself.

Whoever gets the nomination, I as a Democrat and proud Liberal will back that person 100%.

[Tinoire]

147. Image. Just image

Let's wait and see. If Dean is going to be the candidate, we're going to need him to resonate to under-privileged people. He doesn't have Clinton's gift of being able to GET DOWN, that's all. It's not an attack- just my personal observation and that of a few Black friends with whom I've discussed this at work.

Health care resonating... He needs to go further. And he needs to be able to communicate. Let's watch the on-coming debates. There will be more and there will be polls. Like I said, time will tell.

And fat cat... I'm sorry, he has what I call a fat-cat image. Kucinich has a frumpled suit image. Can I help how I see them? Personally I don't care about a candidate's appearance which is why I'm 100% behind my mop-head with his frumpled-suit look. I'm just telling you how Dean looks to the average under-privileged person- like someone who just gave the valet the keys to go park his Mercedes and has no idea what it's like to not be able to feed your family. Clinton not only had an idea but could EXUDE sincerity for ANY idea when needed. I don't see it in Dean, I'm sorry :shrug: and I say this as a child of two fat-cat physicians. Mother head of Psychiatry in one of the best Baltimore hospitals and father, now deceased a highly respected and skilled surgeon who died practically broke at the end because he was treating so many poor people whose treatement the insurance companies wouldn't reimburse. But in his younger days, when he cared about money- oh what a wonderful fat cat he was too.

Sorry if that offends. I'm sick of the bashing too especially since Dean is not someone on my shit list and I try to not get involved in any bashing. Peace

[Eloriel]

87. Tinoire

I've read your posts (and Sleepystudent's post also) with considerable interest. I agree with most of what you say, and appreciated the Black Commentator article especially.

I think you're being a tad hard on Dean -- unless you think he moved to VT all those years ago because there were few blacks there? (I don't.)

I also don't think it's entirely fair to blame Dean for the fact that his supporters have overwhelmingly come to him via the internet, which unfortunately does represent a digital divide which he himself is very concerned about, as are Joe Trippi and others in the campaign. IOW -- this campaign has been enormously and in fact almost entirely self-organizing.

Did you know that just a few days ago he issued a statement against racial profiling, calling it a civil rights and therefore a national issue and saying that as President he would take steps to end it? Did you know his S.C. campaign manager is an African American?

I was impressed that he addressed La Raza (Latino group) in Spanish. And he wasn't one of those who tried to skip out on the NAACP forum.

Did you know that he has said, repeatedly, that he's "not going to write off the South" and that he'd go there "and talk about race." And of course, I think in every speech (or nearly) where he talks about how he's tired of Republicans "dividing us by race, dividing us by gender, dividing us by sexual orientation," etc. He's also been very critical of Bush's caling the U of MI Affirmative Action program "quotas," and has said denounced that repeatedly.

Most important of all, IMO, is that he alone among the candidates is LISTENING and is well aware of Dem sense of disenfranchisement with their own party (except Al Sharpton who doesn't need anyone to tell him!!). You yourself can post things to the blog that Joe Trippi and others WILL see. If you have suggestions, comments, criticisms -- it's all weighed. You might not get a response, tho sometimes people do. What other campaign offers that? And of course this isn't an African American issue, but it's an issue that those of us who are Dean supporters find a breath of fresh air because we've all been ignored for so long. But it does offer those minorities who are concerned and want to get the attention of the candidates the opportunity to do so. It's an avenue you don't have with any other candidate!

Now, to be honest, I'm not sure you'll think Dean is doing "enough," but I think he's doing more than most of the others. And I know that his campaign and many supporters are deeply concerned about reaching out to minorities. But us white folks can't just march into black communities and start flyering the place, now, can we?

So if you've got any suggesetions, get on over there and speak your piece! And continue speaking up. Again: you just don't have that opportunity with any other candidate.

Here's the link for the Official Blog http://www.blogforamerica.com/ (and you can get to his main website from there and look at his stands on his Issues pages ).

Eloriel

P.S. A little more than halfway down the blog page is his statement on racial profiling:

Let's Start Calling Racial Profiling What It Is
AUSTIN—Dean said today that he would take federal action, including withholding federal funding, against state and local law enforcement agencies that engage in racial profiling. As president, Dean would use the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to label racial profiling by law enforcement as a form of discrimination. “Let’s start calling racial profiling what it is—discrimination based upon race,” Dean said.

In comments today to the annual meetings of the National Council of La Raza here and the NAACP in Miami, Dean took issue with the recent memorandum circulated by Attorney General John Ashcroft on the subject of profiling and with the Bush administration’s position that this is a state and local issue over which the federal government has little control. “This is a civil rights issue, and that makes it a federal issue,” Dean said. “Racial discrimination is illegal in hiring, housing, and voting. It should be illegal as a law enforcement technique too.”

“Condemning racial profiling is not enough,” said Dean. “Racial profiling is a serious civil rights issue, and the administration should do more than circulate a memo saying ‘don’t do it’ to federal enforcement agencies he oversees, like the FBI and DEA.”

“As President, I will direct my Attorney General to use regulatory authority under existing anti-discrimination laws—the 1964 Civil Rights Act—to define racial profiling as discrimination, and to withhold federal funds from departments that violate those regulations.”

Governor Dean also made clear that if existing law does not provide sufficient authority, he would seek legislation providing the authority necessary to take stronger action to end profiling, saying “Racial profiling is wrong, and it deserves more than a memo, Mr. Ashcroft.”

[Tinoire]

136. What a pleasure that yours is the first post I'm responding to

now that I'm home! I wasn't trying or wanting to be hard on Dean. I simply agreed with the point that his image isn't going to resonate well with poorer African Americans. I am keeping as open a mind as possible about him but my posts weren't about my personal feelings (except for the part about loosening up the chin a little); they were about how Black Americans may be seeing this differently. There are some Black Americans on board for Dean- 2 of them are close personal friends- and I have no problem with that. My points and the artoc;e posted address the Democratic Party as a whole- especially the DLC- not Dean. of Black Americans who are uncomfortable with the Democratic Party as a whole.

A lot of the points you bring up to me aren't even ones I brought up or weighed in on (the bit about the internet crowd or living in Vermont).

I've gotten very scared Eloriel over the last couple of years and feel that this next election is make it or break it for America. Now I'm going to tell you something I was determined to keep to myself and this will be the only negative thing I've said about Dean in this entire thread (because I wasn't addressing Dean, I was addressing Blacks and the Democratic Party). I don't feel for him one way or another. He hasn't inspired me yet and I'm pretty easy. He reminds me of Clinton, whom yes I adored but had to take my hat off to for being the slickest snaje oil salesmen this side of the river. Dean's talent isn't as developed as Clinton's (a real maestro there) but it's reminiscent for me. I'm looking for the beef- the real beef and I don't feel I've found it yet. I'm not happy with him over the Israel Palestine issue because, in his own words, he's more AIPAC than APN and went to Israel on an AIPAC-paid trip barely knowing anything about the situation down there and calling Gary Hart up right before going asking "what do I do, what do I say". You know how important that issue is to me so that really bothered me. It also really bothers me that in an era where we have shadow people and shadow organizations pushing their agenda on both Democratic and Republican Presidents, he's not anti-war. He's riding the anti-war band-wagon but is not ant-war and that bothers me. So I'm looking for the beef that will touch me, mean something to me and I haven't found it yet. I've heard a lot of words and great phrases but I haven't seen the track record to back them up. A pro for him though, and IG convinced me of this is that he CAN balance a budget (something we'll sorely need when * is tossed out) but so can DK so that's a wash. My mind is still open and I haven't written him off- not by a long shot. I also think there's an unwritten agreement between most Dean and Kucinich supporters that they are willing to support the other candidate because he's acceptable enough to them. I'm there which is why I try to not get involved when the few shots get fired. Dean gets a 10 from me for running a great campaign. You know I'm so far out to the left that he's too much of a centrist for me but I could swallow that. This is the first time in my life I've ever paid so much attention and especially energy to the primaries (I have a feeling that applies to most of us). It's been a long 3 years and we've been working together pretty tight at DU. I won't let these primaries cause any ill-feeling between me and most of the other posters here and right now so I don't want to get baited in bog-down argumentative posts with people who just want to argue (oh and God no, you know I'm not talking about you!)

Yours was a thoughtful post with a lot of good information in it (thanks for it, I really appreciate it) and I feel that's the only way we can learn from each other- not by coming out and being agressive- and we better learn from each other because there will only be one candidate we'll have to unite behind (and yuck I hate saying that) if our consciences allow. I trust most people here to weigh the issues, decide what's best for the country, and vote that way. This is why I say 'may the best man, with the power and passion of the people behind him, win'. So far, from what I've seen it's Dean and Kucinich. And it's not just at DU, it's everywhere I look! This is a good sign... But DU doesn't represent the African American community and their views, their issues, their disatisafaction MUS be taken into account if we want their vote.

I am not the representative of the African-American community but I do reserve the right to point out that too many are unhappy with the Democratic Party so that those who care about fielding the candidate who will best resonate with the people will take that into consideration and care to find out why. That was a long post... I hope it made sense. I'm too tired to even re-read it. If not, just shoot back... I'll come back to this thread and check. Peace

On edit: I think WhoCountsTheVotes made some very valid points and observations and yet he was immediately pounced upon in an attempt to discredit his message. If we can't weigh uncomfortable information without attacking the messenger, we won't be able to decide who that is, unite and win this one. Peace :)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

64. poor white people blah blah blah

Democratic party blah blah blah

[Terwilliger]

53. hahahahahahah

You're kidding right? no...really

Upper middle class white folks have been in charge of the Democratic party since the late 1700's

You don't think the Kennedy's and Gore's are rich for a reason, do ya?

[SEAburb]

61. Well, look at Dean's history

Born into a white elitist family
Raised in a white elitist community
Attended private white elitist schools
Went to white elitist college
Set up his practice in overwhelmingly white community and state
Became governor of overwhelmingly white state


I view Dean's stances on racial issues nothing but political posturing. He has been insulated from other races his whole life and doesn't have a clue what it's like to be a person of color living in america.

[maxanne]

68. oh,

so for credibility he should have left home at 5 and been adopted into a poor black family?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

70. His stance on working issues is political posturing too

I say let Dean take a paycut first - maybe we should outsource the jobs of Democratic politicians? Let's get some Canadians in here on H1-B - better policies and they work for less!

[maxanne]

72. you may want to add something

to your sig WhoCountsTheVotes

Your good/bad bs is going to ensure BUSH.

[poskonig]

74. Dean is going to take away ALL of your jobs

And then enslave everyone to his corporate masters, who are working for the white upper-middle class elite........

[maxanne]

77. who are his corporate masters

poskonig? Can you show proof of corporate ties?

I think you might have confused Dean with W though, since that actually seems to be what he's doing right now.

[poskonig]

93. Sarcasm, of course. nt

nt

[maxanne]

101. oh, good

sorry I missed it. *blushes*

[stickdog]

76. And you've spent your entire life working in a Bronx free clinic.

Right?

[dsc]

143. Gee your computer must have edited

his African American college roommate and his stint in an urban hospital getting his training. And the fact he is fluent in Spanish leads me to believe he must know a Hispanic or two. And last I checked we gays do count as a minority and he did very well by us.

[CWebster]

63. Oh, what a surprise another Dean bashing thread.

My heart goes out to Dennis Kucinich, it truly does. It pained me to watch a hysterically shrill Tweety go for his jugular. Dennis is a good and decent man--perhaps too much so for contemporary politics in America. I hope he, Sharpton and Moseley-Braun stay in the race and debate to influence the input and inform the debate. Sharpton can hold his own, but he will be savaged by the white power structure...They will drag Dennis over the coals.

[revcarol]

66. Just think of the implications of so many of Dean's people

being on the internet.

I know some on the net are not well-off, but, face it, most people have to have a computer and enough money to pay monthly fees. This eliminates the people who have been poor for a long time.

Blacks and Hispanics and other minority groups do not have computers to the extent the white population does. I can't remember the figures exactly, but all minorities are DRASTICALLY behind.

So Dean's main constituency is already skewed against the poor and against minorities. Only time will tell if Dean can broaden this to be representative of the traditional Democratic party and the national makeup.Flame away.

[stickdog]

79. Which other Democrat even HAS a constituency?

I've spent my entire life poor and I'm walking poor neighborhoods for Dean.

Who else has a constituency like me who has a real chance to win this thing?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

91. Gephardt, for one

Gephardt has a strong constituency of working class families, for one.

And guess what? If Gephardt was president you could have had a union job, and not have been poor all your life.

[stickdog]

95. Great. Now what does Gephardt think of Dean? What does Dean think of

Gephardt? And what does the rest of the American public think of Gephardt?

If you could wave a magic wand and make Gephardt the new President, then I could see the appeal. But the guy is a Representative retread who pissed off most of the activist base -- including the minority activist base -- by posing with Bush to sign off on the Iraqi war.

But I must admit that he represents many WHITE union members pretty well.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

97. He's ahead of Dean

Yeah, tell the AFL-CIO they're all a bunch of white people. Go ahead.

[stickdog]

108. Obvious trend: Dean up; Gephardt down.

Why isn't the AFL-CIO doing something about this? Could it be that they were too busy granting their inaugural Wellstone Award to Howard Dean?

http://www.aflcio.org/mediacenter/prsptm/pr01082003.cfm

AFL-CIO to Grant Inaugural Wellstone Award to Gov. Howard Dean (VT) and State Sen. John Burton (CA) For Exceptional Support of Workers' Freedom to Form Unions

January 08, 2003

The national AFL-CIO will honor two elected leaders this Friday with the inaugural Wellstone Award for their outstanding support of workers� efforts to improve their lives by forming unions. Vermont Governor Howard Dean and State Senator John Burton, President Pro Tem of the California Senate, will both be honored at a dinner Friday which is part of the AFL-CIO's first organizing summit.

Governor Dean supported the nurses at Fletcher Allen Health Care in Burlington -- Vermont's largest hospital system -- when they began to form a union with the Vermont Federation of Nurses & Health Professionals (AFT) to address issues of patient care and having a voice on the job. Dean appeared with the nurses at a rally at the hospital at which he urged the hospital to honor their choice regarding a union and wrote a letter to the nurses in which he wrote, "If I were a nurse, I would vote to unionize." Dean is a physician who trained at the hospital before becoming governor. Nurses from Fletcher Allen Health Care in Vermont will travel to Washington, DC to present Dean with the award on Friday.

[Davis_X_Machina]

84. How does this follow? Where's the logic.

"Dean's main constituency presently consists of prosperous whites" (an assertion, by the way)

logically entails

"Dean's main constituency is already skewed against the poor and against minorities."

Except for the two Jesse Jackson primary runs, every serious Democratic primary contender's main constituency has been 'prosperous whites'.

[TheBigGuy]

89. Ive been picking up on a "class" vibe w. Dean

...and perhaps his base, too.

I dont have any polling numbers to confirm it, but I suspect its not really the traditional Democratic base...the minoritys and unions and people without a college degree.

Now, thats not to say the people who support Dean dont care about these folks...

[stickdog]

103. And what is wrong with getting non-traditional Dems excited about

donating and volunteering to GOTV for a Democratic candidate who is saying 95% of the right things for all Americans?

Don't you think that Dean's message would resound with the traditional Democratic base as opposed to Bush's?

If not, why not?

[TheBigGuy]

107. Hes not pitching to that base in the primarys

Those votes are going elsewhere, like to Gephardt.

Now, lets hope theres going to be a big GOTV thing in the general election to motivate the base to vote to get Bush out.

[stickdog]

113. He's pitching to anyone who is catching.

The plan is to use the internet to mobilize the troops the ground troops and then to use the ground troops to mobilize folks who don't have any internet.

It's a damn good plan, IMHO. The only thing in the way of people powered Howard are the superdelegates.

[Eloriel]

110. Revcarol, I'm a little surprised at you

So Dean's main constituency is already skewed against the poor and against minorities.

Against? AGAINST? It's true that Dean's main constituency has grown up around internet tools. That happened as much TO the Dean campaign as by it -- tho they have taken aggressive steps to capitalize on the phenomenon.

But AGAINST the poor and minorities? Is it really "us vs. them" in your mind? I sure as heck hope not.

Eloriel

[Eloriel]

111. Revcarol, I'm a little surprised at you

So Dean's main constituency is already skewed against the poor and against minorities.

Against? AGAINST? It's true that Dean's main constituency has grown up around internet tools. That happened as much TO the Dean campaign as by it -- tho they have taken aggressive steps to capitalize on the phenomenon.

But AGAINST the poor and minorities? Is it really "us vs. them" in your mind? I sure as heck hope not.

Eloriel

[revcarol]

114. The demographic of the internet differs from that of our base

and the nation generally. That's all.
The poor and minorities are under-represented on the net.
Think of all Dean's meet-ups, 99% from the net. So you would expect losts of blacks and poor people to be involved? NOT

[Eloriel]

139. *I* not only understand that,

so does the Dean campaign and many of his supporters.

I'm still troubled by your language, AND by the fact that you are apparently blaming Dean, which I think is tremendously unfair and baseless too.

Eloriel

[IndianaGreen]

115. Your post is total BULLSHIT!

I have to juggle my limited budget in order to afford broadband for my very obsolete computer. I can't afford to spend money on music CDs, which is what poor people do BUY, or on any other sort of entertainment.

On top of that I am Latina, and I know a lot of latinos that do have computers and they don't live in the well-to-do neighborhoods.

I also know a fellow DUer that lives on limited means and he has a computer. He supports Dean as I do!

What is it with all of these posters that have adopted the Rovian language used by Al From to attack Dean and the liberal base of the party?

[dpbrown]

85. Thank you for writing this very cogent summary

I'm a middle class (probably not "upper") professional who would rather be uncomfortable in the short-term than go with the flow. I refused to vote for Nader in 2000 because "symbolism" and elections don't go together well for me. I support Dennis Kucinich because his vision most closely fits what the Democratic Party is supposed to stand for. I don't see Dean's appeal, because he sounds to me like someone who will say liberal things to fool people. I trust that Dennis Kucinich will follow through on what he says he'll do. His record speaks to me of standing up for the right thing even at the cost of this political career. Kucinich was right to keep his campaign pledge as mayor to save the municipal utility from privatization, and the people of Cleveland have cheaper power today as a result.

If not Kucinich, I prefer a candidate who has been responsible at the national level before. Kerry appeals to me because he most fully neutralizes Bush advantages in military heroism and exclusive secret societies.

Naturally, if Governor Dean becomes the nominee I'll vote for him, but it will be a shame to have to cast a vote with so little enthusiasm, having seen such an incredible candidate in Dennis Kucinich passed up by the leadership elite.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[bluestateguy]

86. Um

For someone who blasts "Upper middle class white liberals" (a group I aspire to join one day) for being condescending, your prose is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

You raise one good issue, and that is Dean's ability to turn on black voters: a challenege seeing as how he never had to do so much in lily white Vermont.

If Dean loses the nomination he will be a good Democrat and he will campaign for and urge his supporters to back the party's nominee.

As for the majority of people supporting the war, an even bigger majority supported the first Gulf War and Clinton's ambiguous stance on that war did not hurt him. And if our soldiers keep getting plucked off in Iraq almost daily that support will collapse like a house of cards.

[acerbic]

98. I wish to thank all the anti-Dean folks participating in this thread

I haven't had much interest in these primary fights: I've just thought what my avatar shows. :-)

Now I just happened to wander into this thread and the type of "arguments" used to attack Dean have convinced me... I support Dean. I support him for the same reasons I'm liberal: I tend to support the party/group that relies less on lies...

[quinnox]

99. Glad to be of help n/t

n/t

[CWebster]

100. This is tiresome

Hey, I drive an '89 honda civic. Runs fine, looks great - why do I need a new car? Live in an old house but did all the restoration ourselves. Am an avid gardener, propagate my own plants, shop at thrift stores and yard sales. Am not wealthy and am not particularly ambitious to be so, but I have known poverty. My Doctor father abandoned my mother and my brothers for a younger woman. Our house was so cold inside that water froze in the glass, because we couldn't afford to heat it. I resent you singling out Dean's supporters as some elitist and insensitive monolithic white priviliged mass. I have many friends in Vermont and most of them are not wealthy, in fact most of them are poor by typical middle-class standards - but they live unconventional lifestyles. Even though Vermont is predominantly white, there is alot of rural poverty and through programs initiated under Dean, poor children have better healthcare and educational opportunities.

Dean may not be perfect, but he is good, certainly not any worse by comparison with the other candidates and he is a hell of a lot better than the alternatives that will get serious consideration.

If you are serious, why don't you try contacting his campaign with some of your concerns? Worth a stamp. ;-)

[maxanne]

104. thanks CWebster

I get real tired of the Vermont bashing. All these people who have never even been to New England know all about what it's like. Happy yuppies driving over covered bridges to Phillips Exeter in Range Rovers. Or old hippies in Birks making ice cream from the milk of smiling cows. :eyes:

They've never seen the Northeast Kingdom. A trip to Island Pond would be an eye opener.

[IndianaGreen]

105. Al From, is that you?

Wasn't it your candidate John Kerry that was reported last week to have sent his henchmen to Vermont to find out if Dean and/or his wife had ever performed an abortion in their medical careers?

What do you have to say about that?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

121. IndianaGreen, did you even read my post?

Really, have you read any of my posts on DU? My good/bad list clearly shows Kerry in the bad column, I have posted many criticisms of Kerry, and said I will vote for Kucinich or Gephardt.

And now you are calling me DLC - remember it's DEAN who is the long time DLCer - and saying I support Kerry?

I just don't get it?

[Aaron]

142. lol@IG (n/t)

[dsc]

116. I will send $100 to the candidate of your choice

if you can find me saying anything like what is in your post above. BTW the most I have ever made in a year was around 35k and I currently make less than 20k. Is that your defintion of upper middle class?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

124. post number 7

from a pollster - Wall Street Journal - best I can do - you got better? Keep your $100 - you'll be needing it after 5 more years of NAFTA

[dsc]

125. You responded to my first

and until now only post in this thread. don't know who wrote post 7 but it surely wasn't I.

[dsc]

128. I see now you misunderstood the challenge

sorry. To be clear I wanted a quote of me saying the stuff you claim all Dean supporters say (particularly in re the other candidates).

[DrGonzoLives]

120. *yawn* Another I-Hate-Dean poster

Tell me, who is your candidate, and why should I vote for him? What are his positions on the key issues? What makes him qualified to lead?

Something tells me you don't even have a candidate, you just hate Dean.

[jonnyblitz]

122. good post , whocounts. I can support Dean and still find your post to be

interesting and astute.I suffer no delusions about Dean if i decide to support him.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

127. Just read the vitrol that Dean's supporters have for anyone who criticizes

Dean's the man that started off complaining about the DLC - even though he was one for years. He's the one that bashed all of the other candidates.

I challenge everyone to read this thread - count the number of outright lies and distortions about what I wrote. Read Dean's article about NAFTA for yourself.

It seems any criticism of Dean is just "anti-Dean BS" - yet these same Dean supporters all over DU have the same criticial and personal attacks on other candidates and other posters as anyone.

I call it hypocrisy - and you know what else? I think it proves my point exactly - I say that Dean's supporters suffer from a little too much white upper class privledge.

Oops, did I say class?

[dsc]

131. I now have 4 posts on this thread

Please point to even one where I do any of what you accuse Dean supporters of doing. Yet again no mention of words like some, many, most. So again show me where I have done any of this. I am getting beyond tired of this kind of tactic.

[maxanne]

133. one of the things

I am most tired of is the constant bigotry against people from New England. You have clearly never been to Vermont - especially northern Vermont. The Northeast Kingdom ain't no yuppie paradise. There are plenty of poor folk in Vermont. I'm guessing you don't have a clue about class, wealth, and poverty in New England, particularly in the northern parts.

I am particularly weary of all who write off the small states like VT and NH (where I'm from) as being unimportant. Our population bases are changing all the time. There are increasing numbers of immigrants to our northern areas. But please - feel free to stereotype us all as rich white yuppies.

This rich white yuppie is a former high school drop out, welfare mother, and homeless person. I work 3 jobs - and I have no health insurance. I am hardly rich, and definitely not yuppie.

So thanks for the condescenscion about my part of the world. It sure does teach me yet another lesson about some of those who call themselves liberals. You'd have a spasm if I started talking about dumb southern rednecks - but you have no trouble waving your stereotype about VT around.

[stickdog]

134. YOU are the hypocrite here.

YOU sweepingly negatively stereotype all Dean supporters using only a few bullshit OPINIONS (primarily your own), and then you cry out like a baby when we Dean supporters successfully defend ourselves against your divisive and frankly repellent charges.

I have just two words for anyone who sinks to this level, and they aren't "good luck."

[revcarol]

132. We Dems must face the fact that Blacks who've been Democratic

FOR YEARS do feel betrayed and taken for granted by the Democratic Party.

Whether this applies to Dean more than the other candidates is a matter of speculation at this point.

But this IS a problem the Democrats must address without temporary pandering for the election. The gut issues of Blacks must be addressed.

[stickdog]

135. Agreed.

Who is going to address them better than Dean?

[John_H]

137. This post sums up the Green Party's worldview perfectly

And should be reposted here often during the general election.

[Hoppin_Mad]

138. I'm a 'working class white' supporting Dean 100% -eom-

ny

[Ripley]

140. Wake Up.

People vote hope..I guess you hate that?

[sleepystudent]

148. attempts to respond...

Ok, sigh...the level of vitriol in this thread is why I really choose to avoid this site a lot of the time, or at least not lurk-the dissing makes me honestly lose hope that we are going to win at all next year.

And why is it whenever anyone-even people who say they have an open mind and would vote for Dean or haven't made up their mind-whenever these people bring up concerns or questions about Dean-you know, the questions that should be gotten out of the way before the primary-they are considered "Dean bashers" and are dissed,like they are mentally unevolved for not getting on the bandwagon already? It seems hypocritical and unfair considering the leevl of scrutiny and disparagement heaped on the other candidates without anyone jumping to do research on them or refute or support assertions made about them. Curious...

As for people insulted by assertions about Vermont... I apologize...sort of. I actually have been there before and I even had relatives who lived in Essex Junction, and yes, I am black. The lack of racial diversity there is really noticeable and I can honestly say it made me uncomfortable. My relatives felt so lonely there being the only black family for miles and miles that they asked for a transfer out of state. They did say the people were nice though. For anyone that was bothered by my assertions though, read the census. Facts are facts.

People complaining about Dean having to choose between black and gay voters. I am black. I am gay. My concerns about him still stand. And look at the Congressional Record closely-which group has stood by gay voters and expressed solidarity with gay concerns more than any other? -The Congressional Black Caucus. What group of voters has stuck by the Democratic Party more than any other post-WW2? Black voters.

Also, I am really bothered by the responses to some of the posters on here-the responses that say nothing more than "blah, blah" or derisively calling someone the "Black Commentator". There are so few black posters on here it seems, so few threads dealing with minority issues that get any response on here-this one only got response because the word "Dean" was in it, people assuming if a black poster raises his concerns, that he is calling all whites racists, etc. This kind of response to so many black issues threads combined with the general dismissive derisive tone of response on this site is probably why there seem to be so few African Americans at DU.

People are going on and on about how Dean is bringing more people to the process, people that would have never voted or gotten involved before. That's great. So is Al Sharpton. He was quoted as saying he wants to register 1.8 million people in time for the general election. Jesse Jackson is also planning to make a major push. They are doing this irregardless of whether they win primaries and are encouraging these new voters to stay and vote Democratic. I hope people on DU get as excited and are as supportive of this drive as they are of Dean's candidacy.

[stickdog]

149. Sharpton has a "sharp tongue" when it comes to Bush.

And all the Dean supporters I know sure love him for that.

Al speaks the truth. And he is really an inspiring orator. I hope he stays in the race as long as possible, and I hope Dean and his supporters can learn a thing or two from his message, his presentation and his grassroots efforts along the way.

[dsc]

151. One thing

The paper being discussed was called the Black Commentator. No person was being called the Black Commentator.

[Tinoire]

153. You're not that sleepy dude! Need a new moniker like WIDE-AWAKE STUDENT!

Excellent post and thank you for taking the time to write it! I really hope you stick around. The Black voter is severely under-represented at DU and the under-privileged Black voter that everyone thinks the Dems resonate with is non-existent. And who will speak for our brothers and sisters if not you, me, Noiretblu, CatWoman, JaySunb, StudyWarNoMore, etc... (and yes I know there are some more but eventually you type etc to get it over with!)

Welcome :toast: and please, please do weigh in more often! We need a more diverse representation to that we can all learn from each other- learn what makes each other tick, what's important to and what's not so that we can better unite and win in 2004.

Learning how to get information. Transform information into knowledge. Knowledge into understanding. And that understanding into sensitivity.

Peace

Freedom from Bush 2004!

[Khephra]

150. You know?

This thread would be funny if it wasn't so annoying.

As said above, Howard Dean is the Howard Dean of 2004.

[farmbo]

154. Bookmark this thread...as a textbook example of a strawman argument

The author defines a disagreeable group, assigns to them a fictitious set of elitist, hypocritical issue stances, then wraps him(her)self in a cloak of respectability by opposing that group and their "stances".

BTW...this thread is simply a re-hash of the DLC "elitist activists" rant against Dean from last May.

[deutsey]

155. Yeah, that's me: Upper Middle Class White Liberal

Not.

About the only thing that matches up with me in this label is "white".

I'm from the working class (actually, the working poor) who was the first to somehow get through college during Reagan-era cutbacks. I'm just now barely lower Middle Class, and that's a tenuous position. My mother just got laid off, brother-in-law is now doing the work of two or three people after they laid off nearly 50% of the workforce where he works, my wife is a freelancer who hasn't been able to find any work in a few months, and I'm pretty much maxed out in my current job paywise.

In terms of politics, I'm gowing further and further left the older I get and the more I understand about the economic history of this country. I tried the liberal/moderate route under Clinton (whom I voted for twice, but not enthusiasitically), and voted for Gore after pulling for Bradley and liking what I heard from Nader (but I didn't think Nader would have made a good president even if he had a chance). I have grown frustrated by the liberal/moderate unwillingness to fight for and to speak out unabashedly about its vision of this country.

That's what I like about Dean: I may not agree with everything he says, but I do like a large portion of it. More than anything, he's organized, he's energizing disgruntled Dems like me, and he actually speaks out and fights back against the thugs that have been raping this country since 2000.

At the very least, if he doesn't get the nomination Dean is helping to energize Dems to oust Bush.

[philosophie_en_rose]

Did you find that on this website?

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research011003.htm

"Gov. Dean is an unabashed, unapologetic liberal . . . against the huge tax cut and for a dramatic universal health care plan. . . . Yes, Gov. Dean and the rest of New England are outside the current mainstream." (Editorial, "About Gov. Dean," Bangor Daily News, November 18, 2002)

:shrug:

[philosophie_en_rose]

Did you get that from this website?

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research011003.htm

"Gov. Dean is an unabashed, unapologetic liberal . . . against the huge tax cut and for a dramatic universal health care plan. . . . Yes, Gov. Dean and the rest of New England are outside the current mainstream." (Editorial, "About Gov. Dean," Bangor Daily News, November 18, 2002)

:shrug:

[philosophie_en_rose]

157. Did you get that from this website?

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research011003.htm

"Gov. Dean is an unabashed, unapologetic liberal . . . against the huge tax cut and for a dramatic universal health care plan. . . . Yes, Gov. Dean and the rest of New England are outside the current mainstream." (Editorial, "About Gov. Dean," Bangor Daily News, November 18, 2002)

:shrug:

[philosophie_en_rose]

Did you find that on this website?

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research011003.htm

"Gov. Dean is an unabashed, unapologetic liberal . . . against the huge tax cut and for a dramatic universal health care plan. . . . Yes, Gov. Dean and the rest of New England are outside the current mainstream." (Editorial, "About Gov. Dean," Bangor Daily News, November 18, 2002)

:shrug:

[philosophie_en_rose]

158. Did you find that on this website?

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research011003.htm

"Gov. Dean is an unabashed, unapologetic liberal . . . against the huge tax cut and for a dramatic universal health care plan. . . . Yes, Gov. Dean and the rest of New England are outside the current mainstream." (Editorial, "About Gov. Dean," Bangor Daily News, November 18, 2002)

:shrug:

[Northwind]

159. What is this?

Answer: The face of a man not buying your bullshit!

I was at Dean rally on Sunday, and there was not a preponderance of upper-middle class anybody, white males or otherwise. I am a white male of the not upper middle class variety, and I was very pleased at the diversity of the group that showed up. I saw every socio-economic level represented there, and every color and creed. Maybe you should wake up instead of believing everything the DLC tells you.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

160. maybe you should wake up and realize that Dean IS DLC

He's a long time member, he supports their policies, and whether or not he quit recently doesn't change the fact that he is one of them.

You got fooled by the speech, didn't you? Too bad.

[Forkboy]

161. This post may hold a record

for most buzzwords in a single subject heading.