The Reagan Movie Flap. Another Example of Rewriting History.

[Solomon]

Stay with me here folks because this one is very tricky.

There's been a rightwing howl recently about some upcoming mini-series concerning Ronald Reagan. The howl and cry is about some scene in which Reagan says something to the effect that AIDS was because of sin.

Rightwingers are howling that there is no evidence that Reagan ever said this. Why are they so upset about this? Because in the year 2003 it is politically incorrect to say such a thing.

Let's go back to the early 1980's when we first learned about AIDS.
At first, everyone was told that it was a disease contracted by anal sex. In the climate of the early 1980's, it was not such an outrageous thing to say that AIDS happened to sinners, and whether he actually said it or not in those particular words, does anybody doubt that it was the way he felt? I mean, in the early 80's, everybody and their mama was talking about it.

Fast forward to 2003. We know a lot more about AIDS now. In today's climate, it would be outrageous to make such a statement. So let's whoop and howl and say that Reagan didn't feel this way even though secretly we love the guy because we know that this is how he felt about it.

I hate it when they try to rewrite history as though things happened through today's lens rather than yesterday's. But they do it all the damn time.

Can anybody get what I'm saying here? They constantly rewrite history even as it happens. The irony is that all of the rightwingers howling about what they are doing to Ronald Reagan truly believe that AIDS is because of sin. How ironical is that?

[DarkPhenyx]

1. If he didn't actually say it...

...then it is historically innacurate to say that he did. Reguardless of what he may have intimated or felt.

I for one feel that his squemishness about discussions on human sexuality and body fluids cause the senless deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of people.

I disagree that it is ironic. Hypocritical yes, but not ironic. Ironic is when a depressed adn suicidal man becomes the first person to survive going over the Niagra Falls unprotected.

[Solomon]

9. Nobody said "he didn't actually say it." Don't confuse the fact that

no one has yet come forward to prove that he said it, with "he didn't actually say it". Besides, actions speaks louder than words.

[ShavedBeard]

22. CBS has admitted

that the quote in question is a total fabrication.

[DarkPhenyx]

25. Thank you.

Appreciate you pointing this out.

[tom_paine]

27. Link, Mr. Fair and Balanced?

Why should I believe you, Mr. Fair and Balanced?

Because people like you...the O'Recihley's, the Hannity's, the others...are ALWAYS TRUTHFUL?

As we've seen, the opposite is true. Why should I take you at your word, Mr. Fair and Balanced?

Because you are Fair and Balanced?

Show me.

(more likely, as with your Bushevik Masters, you have carefully parsed a half-truth at best and repackaged it as a statement of certainty)

Busted again, Mr. Fair and Balanced...

[ShavedBeard]

28. Busted again my ass

Your continual calling me "Mr. Fair and Balanced" is clear evidence that you have lost the argument and need to resort to name calling.

[tom_paine]

33. Busted until you show a link, Mr. Fair and Balanced

How can I lsoe an argument you haven't even started?

It starts with proof to back up your statement, both here and elsewhere.

Where is your proof?

Show me.

[Selwynn]

31. Can you stop being such an ass? Or is that not possible?

[tom_paine]

34. I will NOT knuckle under and allow lies to pass unchallenged

If you think that is being an ass, so be it.

Of course, if liberals had stood up and challenged Bushevik lies when they started telling then you wouldn't need Radicalized Moderates to try and do it for you at this late date!

Perhaps you'd like to apologize to Shaved Beard for questioning his unsubstantiated assertion and admit all liberals are just immoral welfare cheats and fabricators, eh? That has worked SOOOO well in the past.

If you think such feelings of desiring to stand up instead of groveling and apologizing makes me an ass, so be it.

[Selwynn]

35. Excellent - now can you maintain that commitment without being an ass?

I'm just curious. :)

[tom_paine]

37. Apparently not

:evilgrin:

[FinallyFreedom]

38. Knuckle under this

I see i was banned for telling you the truth. Which you couldn't handle and ran off like a baby to the moderators about.

Script writer Elizabeth Egloff has admitted fabricating the line and that Reagan never said it.

Now quit being a lazy bum and do some research on your own.

There was an article in Investors Business Daily about it. I am trying to hunt it down to satisfy your blind mind.

[tom_paine]

39. I did your research for you, Mr. Fair and Balanced

What a surprise, it's a NewsMax article!

Why, you could knock me over with a feather, Mr. Fair and Balanced!

Here's yer link, Mr. Fair and Balanced!

www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/10/21/105759.shtml

You know, given the stellar reporting job that NewsMax did regarding the Hillary/GoldStar Mothers incident

(They fabricated it from a distant half-truth)

I guess you showed me.

Not only about the truthfulness of your statement but regarding teh fact that you are some kind of troll.

What kind, praytell?

[FinallyFreedom]

40. More

To dramatize Mr. Reagan's alleged neglect of AIDS, "The Reagans" depict the president making a moralistic statement about AIDS victims that he never made. Even the scriptwriter admits the statement was a fiction.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20031023-074832-4597r.htm

You might not like the source, but it is just one of many out there on this. Like I said, don't be such a lazy bastard. Do some work on your own.

You called me a liar. PROVE I am lying.

[tom_paine]

41. Aaaah, the Moonie Paper. The Bushevik lying rag best known

for Prudenizing copy. (inserting non-factual items at the behest of the Bushevik-in-Charge)

So now we have a NewsMax cite and a Moonie Times cite, and aMoonie opinion article at that.

The least you could do is cite a "news" story.

You sure showed me, Mr. Fair and Balanced.

[FinallyFreedom]

43. Again

YOU called me a liar. Prove I am lying.

Thing is, you can't. All you can do is call names.

[FinallyFreedom]

44. NYT

I saw articles about it being fabricated in the NY Times as well.

Are they a bunch of Reagan supporters too and covering for him???

[FinallyFreedom]

42. NewsMax

I talk about an IBD article and you pull up NewsMax. Talk about dishonesty.

[DarkPhenyx]

26. *soft sigh*

All I said was that if, as they have complained, He didn't say it then having it in teh movie as a quote by him is a historical innacuracy. In this case, then, they are right.

His actions have no bearing on wether or not he said it. Do they?

[Yupster]

47. This is some logic Solomon

Say someone said something and then make someone prove he didn't say it. That's some standard of writing.

Bill Clinton once said, and I quote... "I wish Monica was 12 because I love them young ones best."

Unless someone can prove he never ever said that, I think it's okay to print that he did.

Geeze.

[Solomon]

51. You're right. It's really flipping me out.

People always mistake the symbol for the substance. The truth is this is the way Ronald Reagan felt. What's the big deal with showing it.

I didn't hear anyone complain when all those white supremacy cowboy movies and all that other horsehit about how this country was founded, blah blah blah, ... stuff we were flooded with from Hollywood.

Arts do take poetic license, always have and always will. But the truth of the matter is what counts. The argument over whether he actually said the words is a diversion.

[Catch22Dem]

2. The Fact

Reagan had a MISERABLE record for dealing with AIDS. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, he wouldn't let the word AIDS be spoken in the Oval Office. If Reagan had done something, anything about AIDS in the early 80s, we could be years ahead of where we are now in terms of research and treatment.

Fuck them if they can't handle the troof.

[DarkPhenyx]

4. You are correct.

He and Bush both couldn't handle those words. Didn't want semen, intercourse, adn several otehr words central to the discussion of STD's used in thier presence. It was extremely fustrating to those people trying to avise them on the situation. It eventually led to a lot of bad information being released by the government because Ronnie and Georgie didn't want "bad words" being used by their administration.

[MotorCityMan]

18. Ronnie did nothing when it could have helped

If Ronnie had treated AIDS like the medical emergency it was from the beginning of the epidemic (early 80's),
he really could have done a lot to stop it's spread. But since the disease was spreading among drug users,
foreigners, and of course those evil homos, instead of among white, fat, rich, repug CEO-types, he did NOTHING.

I have felt for a long time that history would show that Ronnie was the absolute worst president since he did
nothing about AIDS (or even mentioned it) when he could have done some good.

That, of course, was before *.

[dccindy]

46. Thank you

Besides it is not a biography of Reagan and some poetic license is allowed. It was sure allowed in that stupid movie on Showtime about Bush and 9/11 - lots of lies about his actions and words that day, making him out to be a hero, when he was anything but. I didn't see anyone on the right bitching then. We saw the inaction of the Reagan administration regarding aids, so his saying that is totally believable to me. If this was hit piece on the Clintons, we'd be reading articles of praise by right wing wacko sites like Newsmax and the Moonie Times. Seems the right forgot about the Clinton Chronicles. Just one of many examples of right wing hypocrisy

[indigo32]

3. They are also quite upset about the fact that it omits

the "decades of prosperity" he brought us LOL

[Mari333]

5. That reminds me of my NRA brother in the 80s

when I was visiting my mom and dad in Indiana...my brother, who thinks hes a cop, except hes not, he just carries guns around and acts like hes a big shot, was sitting at the family picnic and ranting away..I usually ignored him, gas and all, until he made the statement that AIDS was direct retribution from god for being gay..
I asked him if all babies who are born with AIDS were being punished..he just looked at me with that deer in the headlights look..then I asked him if Lesbians, who have the lowest AIDS rate in the country were being punished by something else he knew of..he looked down at his shoes and mumbled incoherently..
Its sort of sad..I remember when he was a little boy and I used to play with him...too bad hes such an arse now.

[Solomon]

8. LOL That's a good one Mari.

Lots of people like that.

[Atman]

6. There you go again...

...besmirching Ronnie, the Lord High God of Hollywood Actors turned Politicians who Used To Be Democrats but switched to Republicans.

No hypocrisy here, nothing to see, move along Johnny.

This is clearly part of the reason why the rightie tighties cling so to the balls of faith...as long as they see themselves as receiving preferential treatment because of their faith in a big floating ghost (who is better than the other guy's big floating ghost), then they will are forever free to apologize away any failure, deliberate lie, cheating, anything, as being some part of "god's plan."

They've set themselves up a perfect system. I have a strong feeling that W is not so much a tea-totalling born-again Christian, as he is a born-again Capitalist, who has suddenly awakened to the untapped potential of tax-free business under the cloak of church.

Pretending that nothing "they" have done amounts to anything more than a small slip on God's road to salvation, while the likes of Bill Clinton are demonized for the very acts most of them have already committed themselves, doesn't seem to strike any of them as the least bit inconsistent. Trying to pretend Lord God Ronnie's comments were never made while obsessing about a finger wagging "is," is par for the right wing course.

After all, Ronnie was a great president, and if he wasn't, it was because he had alzheimers, but he wasn't crazy, just dealing with what God dealt him, being strong, but really he was fine and you liberals all just hate him anyway because he was so great, and by the way, have they started the blasting to put his face on Mt. Rushmore yet?

[11 Bravo]

17. When Robert Barr was in congress

he mounted a campaign to have something named after Reagan in every county in the United States. I sent him a letter letting him know that I had named my penis Ronald Reagan, so he could scratch Fairfax County, Virginia, off his list. Funny, I never heard back from him.

[Bronco69]

7. I used to think that Reagan was the.....

worst president of all time until * came along

[Solomon]

15. Funny. I always thought this

too.

[alphafemale]

50. When Liberals and Progressives are pining for RayGun things are BAD!

I've made this observation more than once.

[bleedingheart]

10. It is outrageous to blame any illness on Sin then or now.

Sorry but I am not going to give RayGun any leverage on this one...

Perhaps in the 1800's or 1600's people would blame illness on sin because there wasn't enough medical evidence to prove that sin was a moral issue not a biological issue.

[Solomon]

11. I agree with you, but you still have to be conscious of the time when

things were said or done. When we first learned of AIDS, it was said that it happened through anal sex.

Most stuck-up pruddish Americans consider anal sex to be a sin, whether gay or heterosexual. There are still laws on the books in some places that make it a crime.

You simply cannot ignore the times when things are said and done and my only point is that in the early 1980's, it was not considered outrageous to have made such a statement. Today, it is flat out unacceptable.

[bleedingheart]

14. I remember that time very well, I was in college

however the rational people said that anal sex and IV drug were methods of transmission. My sister was actively nursing to people and never once did she say that AIDS was caused by "sin"... it was apparent it was a virus which no one at the time knew much about.

To give even more information at that time my sister explained that anal sex was known to be a way to transmit many other diseases like Hepatitis and other intestinal disorders. No one said that Hepatitis was caused by SIN in the 80's...they would have been labeled an idiot.

Reagan was pandering to the right-wing bible thumpers and I think he knew better...

He had done the same thing with racial issues...playing one side of the card when he campaigned in the south...playing another side when he campaigned in the north...he was a vile man.

[kskiska]

29. Back then AIDS sufferers were treated like lepers

There was very little known about AIDS transmission and all sorts of scare stories sprang up. Health care workers and funeral directors refused to touch these patients/bodies. No one wanted to go near them, much less have any physical contact. That's why it was so controversial and astounding to some when people like Diana made it a point to make contact with AIDS patients.

Remember when Magic Johnson divulged his illness? He had to quit playing back then. There was a flap about Greg Louganis possibly contaminating the pool water when he cut his head on the diving board.

[Snellius]

12. All this neo-con deification of Raygun will backfire

Some of these neo-conservatives, especially the younger ones who have grown up to accept the deification of Raygun as gospel, will probably be shocked to learn that the personifications in this TV miniseries are essentially, if not literally, true. Raygun did think AIDS was a sin and did nothing about it. He did swear. I personally saw him giving the finger to students in Berkeley. He was addled long before he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. His mental condition was openly discussed in public by Howard Baker, his own Chief of Staff. Even his official biographer, Edmund Morris, portrayed him as living in a perpetual fantasy world in which he believed he had actually done things he had forgotten he had only made up.

[pansypoo53219]

13. and to top it off

HE RAISED TAXES!!!

[doubleplusgood]

23. he legalized abortion in California, too

...as I recall, signing the law into effect as governor

[jsw_81]

16. Conservatives and AIDS

There is no doubt in my mind that Ronald Reagan made those kinds of comments. Edmund Morris actually overheard Reagan joking about AIDS and talking it about being "sent down from the Lord" to punish "sinners," and wrote about it in Dutch. Reagan's people will deny it, obviously, but Morris had no reason to lie.

The sad truth is that the vast majority of conservatives hated gays back in the 1980's, hate them now, and will probably hate them forever. If you don't believe me, just go over to Free Republic (or any other major conservative website for that matter) and watch what happens whenever anyone mentions gays or AIDS. You'll undoubtedly see all kinds of nasty comments about "God's wrath" and "fudgepackers" etc. They even hate gay Republicans.

[Cat Atomic]

19. It has nothing to do with the realities of Reagan's presidency.

They're building a myth around him; making him into a bigger-than-life, patriotic hero. He's becoming a comic book, or perhaps more accurately, a Lenin for the right-wing.

His myth-makers will shape him into whatever they need him to be. Bring up Iran/Contra, and the same people who shout about his mental clarity and deep involvement in government will say he wasn't involved in the scandal, and that he had Alzheimers.

It doesn't matter what Reagan actually was. He was a prop when he was president, and he's still a prop today.

[eleny]

20. Well, at the very least we can always say...

how glad we are that the right wing is beginning to become more correct about this issue. Turn the tables on them. To be able to listen to the right wing decry the bigotted language that came from the likes of Falwell does my old heart good.

In order to suppport the history rewrite on Reagan's behalf, they have to support the liberal and I might add, the realistic view of AIDS. I love it when they get caught in a Catch-22.

[Yupster]

21. Supposedly the family is upset

because it shows Reagan cursing in rages. They claim none of them ever heard him ever curse. If it is true that Reagan didn't curse, the moie should not show him cursing. That seems pretty simple to me.

If he didn't, and the movie does, it will be the easiest way to dismiss any credibility the movie might have. That's something the average person can understand.

Does the movie show him cursing? Yes

Is there evidence he cursed? No

Then the movie is just trying to make him look bad.

Now if he did curse, that's all fine. But if he didn't curse, the movie makers are stupid for having Brolin curse in the movie.

I think it also stupid to have Brolin play Reagan since he's known to hate Reagan.

How would Democrats think of a made-for-tv-movie about the 2000 election with Al Gore played by Dennis Miller? Would Democrats start off with an open mind about the picture?

[ShaneGR]

24. I couldn't agree with you more........

The problem is credibility. Everyone here knows Reagan wasn't a good President. But who here thinks it lends credibility to the film to have Barbra Streisand's husband playing Reagan? Does anyone here think it's wise to have the character of Reagan saying things that there is no proof of him ever saying? There are VOLUMES of material available to show him saying a LOT of embarresing things. Why taint the film with material that cannot be proven?

Reverse the field here, what if we had a Clinton miniseries where Clinton was played by Ann Coulters boyfriend and they had him saying things like "God is evil, we need to get rid of these Christians."

[Yupster]

36. Best thing Republicans could hope for

this will be their example of Liberal Hollywood's distortions for the next 20 years.

[denverbill]

30. The freepers are going nutso over this thing.

They are all but guaranteeing this movie gets more publicity than any made for TV movie in history. Should be a blockbuster best-seller for CBS.

[Selwynn]

32. Fact or fiction: either way I hope this thing gets aired....

Can someone tell me again exactly WHEN it is supposed to air?

[the_real_38]

45. As long as they talk about the death squads...

... he funded in Central America, and his war crimes in supplying both sides of an armed conflict (Iraq and Iran), how much worse could anything else be?

[ComerPerro]

49. Of course they won't show that

Because, face it, the truth hurts

[Grins]

48. Anybody know..?

Hmmmm. Does anyone know if these same critics said anything about Bush's inaccurate quotes in that simultaneously dull and disgraceful "Showtime" movie, "DC 9-11: Time of Crisis"?

Did 'Dubya really say: "If some tinhorn terrorist wants me, tell him to come and get me! I'll be at home! Waiting for the bastard!"

When a Secret Service agent questions the order to fly back to Washington by saying, "But Mr. President -- , ", did Bush really bark at him with: "Try 'Commander in Chief.' Whose present command is: Take the president home!"

Call me a cynic, but I kinda doubt it.

"The notes of Morton Kondracke of Roll Call, Charles Krauthammer of the Washington Post and Fred Barnes of The Weekly Standard were incorporated into the script to ensure it portrayed a balanced and accurate (Hey!! Get that smirk off your face right NOW!) account of the events. All three had access to people in the White House and were aware of what went on at that time."

"In researching his film, Chetwynd reportedly had "lengthy" interviews with Bush and top officials, including Donald Rumsfeld, Andrew Card and Karl Rove."
(Why only (just?) them? Limbaugh too stoned? Hannity too busy making crap up elsewhere?)
<http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/976703/posts>

Could it be that there is no criticism of that film by these same critics because its director/producter was hand-picked - by Karl Rove!!!

They bitch about the Reagan film but laud this piece of drivel, while at the same time they are completely indifferent to the Bush administration's lack of any serious attempts to investigate 9/11 - including efforts by a joint Congressional inquiry, which was denied access to top officials.

Other interesting link: <http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16735>

[Solomon]

52. Excellent.

Welcome to DU :thumbsup: