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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:10 AM
Original message
Democrats! Learn from the Canadian Alliance/Progressive Conservatives!
If anyone has been listening to the CBC lately, they will have heard that the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservatives (the two right-wing parties in Canada) are planning a "marriage."

10 years or so ago, the members of the nascent Canadian Alliance decided that the Conservative Party just wasn't quite right wing enough for them, so they formed a new party to gather their own to themselves. The Conservative Party, sort of as a distancing move, formed the Progressive Conservative Party, mostly to say, "SO THERE!"

This was a classic example of "WELL! If you won't play by MY rules, I'll just take MY ball and go home! NYAH, NYAH, NYAH!" For the CA, this was a bit of a disaster. Their strength was dismal, and they garnered few seats: mostly in Alberta and Manitoba; a little far from the lights of Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal. (British Columbia remains an odd duck, as the NDP/New Democrats hold some sway there, but they still clear-cut old growth forest and have a lousy ecological agenda. Go figure.) Ontario became the sole bastion of the PC's, mostly due to the financial markets of Toronto and Ottawa, combined with the Southwest's marriage of convenience to the US Auto Industry.

None of this has worked well.

The PC's in Ontario and their mindless tax cutting have gutted the largest sector of the Canadian Healthcare System and attempted to privatize anything that is not nailed down and most that is. The recent election shows how well THAT worked: they went from majority to less than 20 seats out of 94 in the Ontario Commons, and the name Mike Harris has become an Ontario swear word. Can we say, OOPS?

The Canadian Alliance's xenophobic relationship with the rest of the known universe failed to take hold ANYWHERE except in our version of the Western "Red" States": the Plains Provinces of Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Even there, they didn't achieve any majority. This is the hazard of being a closet neobigot in a country even more diverse than THIS one.

Seeing that these two incarnations of the same "Right Wing Nut" philosophy were dying alone, after a couple of years of negotiation, they're coming back together.

Sort of. Maybe.

You see, these people and the Democratic Party/Left Wing of US politics have something in common: a philosophy of "...if you don't practice the 'true faith,' then WHO NEEDS YOU?" To illustrate, already both the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservatives have factions doing their damnedest to derail this "coming together" of the Canadian Right Wing, no matter how well this would serve their ends. They are even happy to do it by keeping the agreeing percentage below the 2 to 1 required by the compact between the parties, or, SHADES OF GEORGE W. BUSH, via the courts. And we thought the Democratic Party had a monopoly on cutting of their noses to spite their faces. DISUNITY OR DEATH, the clarion call of the fanatic!

The worst part is this: you can bet right now that the responses to my little informational rant will be chock full of "…not for any candidate who supports (insert your own pet peeve here)!!!" You know what? Socrates was an uncompromising IDIOT. If they give me a choice between hemlock or compromise, guess where I line up: I'm not that thirsty. YET.

Don't get me wrong, fanaticism has its place: every movement needs cannon fodder to charge the guns, and if you want to sign up for that job WAY too early, more power to you. Just don't waste it in making the opposition's job easier. Time to learn the lesson. Stop pissing on each other: we can no longer afford the cleaning bills.

So take a clue from our Friends North of the border: their Liberal Party has learned the lesson that their conservative brothers have not, contrary to here in this country. Time to compromise and cooperate, or say "HI!" to the Dodo. Think of it as political evolution in action.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. another cry for unity goes unanswered.
I think I'm going to like it in Canada. They appear to be waking up there. I sure am getting tired of talking to myself.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. You're surprised?
Too many here are not interested in trying to find common ground, only in trying to get people to think exactly like them, or else drive them off. Working together is, well, work. We can't have that!
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Hope springs eternal, Doc.
I would think after 30 years I'd be fed up, but it still frightens me to the point where I absolutely HAVE TO get involved.

Even if I succeed in taking the wife and kids to Canada, I will still be worried about "Mordor on the Border."

Hey, that was rather cute, I thought.
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Girlfriday Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. Great post!
I totally agree with your assessment; good points all!
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. too bad nobody is listening.
Have you heard all the "who shot John" nonsense about Deanies pissing on Clarkies pissing on Edwardsites pissing on Kucinichoids.....

I would vomit, but the whole mess is giving me such an ulcer that I can't eat until about noon every day.
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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. As far as I'm aware,
The PC's were called Progressive Conservatives from about the mid-fifties, so the blame lies squarely with the Alliance. Don't worry though, David Orchard (PC maverick) promises to continue the PC name regardless of what happens with the merger, don't know who'll pay for it, though.

http://www.canada.com/news/national/story.asp?id=967003EA-6762-43F3-AC77-13A3A3F4F581
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. They call themselves "Tories" for so long, I guess that stuck in my head.
It seems that has happened less since the CA. No matter; a wingnut is a wingnut is a wingnut. I just wish WE would stop behaving like LEFT wingnuts.
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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Amen to that
As an Albertan, my beef with the Alliance is personal. Don't be surprised if the vote splitting continues after the 'merger'
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. You've got it sort of right...but the Progressive Conservative Party (they
Edited on Tue Oct-28-03 10:57 AM by glarius
were always called that) was alive and healthy until the advent of Brian Mulroney as Prime Minister....When he retired in 1993, he was so despised because of the policies he followed and his arrogance that the country voted out ALL of the Tory members of parliament except for TWO....It was because of that opening that the Reform Party (started by Preston Manning), was born and morphed into the present Canadian Alliance. The Progressive Conservative Party of old was a decent right of center party, but if they take on the right wing policies of the C.A. they will be left in the dust...We are not a right wing country....Canadian Alliance registers around 12% in national polls.:)
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yep, and the new party will look like the old Alliance party....
like the old Reform party and will get (gasp) maybe 15% of the vote now. They can change the name as many times as they want, it is their policies that Canadians won't buy!
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. EXACTLY!!
:)
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. Guess I should stop bitching and watch the show anyway.
The wife is now Online at U of Guelph with onsite pending in 18 months. I'm lobbying a firm in London. Shit, I could be in Canada before I get the house built. But for the Act of 1977 we'd already be there. 30 years as a Liberal Activist in this country hasn't done shit.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. me not agreeing
I've said a little on this before, but I'll give it another shot.

Historically, Canadian "conservatism" has nothing in common with USAmerican "conservatism", so USAmericans are starting at a disadvantage in trying to understand current "conservative" events here.

The (Progressive) Conservative Party was historically the nationalist, protectionist party. The Liberal Party was historically the internationalist, free-trade party. They represented different factions of the same class: old money and new money, respectively. The Conservative election slogan, over a hundred years ago, was "no truck nor trade with the Yankees". Brian Mulroney's free trade deal with the US kinda stepped outside that box.

The PC government of Ontario in the 60s and 70s was waaay to the left of anything a USAmerican could dream of. Generous post-secondary student grants and loans for anyone who needed them, that universal health care system, loads of subsidized housing for the elderly, social service and employment programs galore, practically a chicken in every pot. Of course, those were prosperous days. So the PCs could govern as the federal Liberals do: give 'em as much of what they want as we need to and can without affecting profits too much, as long as we stay in power.

There is also the Red Tory tradition, what you might call *real* "compassionate conservatism". A tradition that respects individual rights and strives to meet people's needs. A collectivist approach.

David Orchard (the rebellious former candidate for the PC leadership) is in that tradition. In fact, I have friends who are somewhat disaffected Vancouver members of the (social democratic/left) New Democratic Party who were delegates for him to that leadership convention. I actually don't know a whole lot about him, but I hear that there were others like them.

But since the 70s, the PC party has pretty much eliminated its Red Tories, and jumped on all the neo-conservative (what the world outside the US calls neo-liberal) bandwagons. The fluke that was the right-wing Brian Mulroney's win in 1984 (disaffected Quebec liberal voters punished the Liberals by electing any idiot who ran as a Tory and giving Mulroney a majority in the House) changed everything. The PC party simply *never was* an "incarnation of the same 'Right Wing Nut' philosophy" before him.

The Canadian Alliance (formerly Reform Party) is not in that tradition at all. It is not in any "Canadian" tradition. It is an outgrowth of a parochial christian fundamentalism, outside the "political" sphere, that has long had a strong influence in Western provinces, and until 50 years ago was paralleled by the RC influence in Quebec. Quebec got out from under the church and joined the modern world; the fundies of Alberta don't want to be part of that world -- the world in which Canada is a diverse and tolerant society in which individual rights are respected and collective responsibilities are assumed. Respect for rights and living up to collective responsibilities are both Canadian traditions, and in fact are both Tory traditions, all to varying degrees and with different emphases. But the Alliance rejects *both*.

The "union" proposed is in fact the absorption and elimination of traditional Canadian conservatism. There is no union; there is a takeover. There is no compromise; there is vanquishment and surrender. David Orchard and his supporters know that. And I think that anyone on the "left" of the Democratic Party believes that this is what "compromise" and "cooperation" by them would be, too.

I imagine that such demands look to them very much like "our way or the highway". I know they do to me. That's not to say that sometimes there aren't overarching necessities that call for unity around a single issue (anybody but Bush, as I understand it) -- damned if I didn't vote Liberal in our recent provincial election, for the first time in my many years of voting, because it *was* an "anybody but" situation: the Ontario PC party was no longer the party of 60s Premier Uncle Bill Davis, it was the Alliance by another name, and in my riding the NDP was not going to win the 3-way split. But I did that only because I believed that a Liberal government would indeed be better, even if nowhere near what I wanted. Federally, say in 1988 when Mulroney was re-elected, I was under no such delusion and would have voted neither Liberal nor PC if they had been my only choices. They were the same thing, not "the opposition". And I can understand those who think that right-wing Democrats aren't really any different from Republicans.

It galls me to see the Liberal Party held up as an example for our progressive southern neighbours. The Liberal Party -- and more so under the next Prime Minister, Paul Martin -- is an economically right-wing party. It "compromises and cooperates" to precisely the extent needed in order to stay in power and pursue that right-wing agenda. It is to its advantage to placate the "left" by giving in to socially left-wing demands (you haven't actually seen it leading the charge on any of those, have you?), thus improving its image among those whom its economic policies harm the least -- those most likely to vote.

So please don't try to learn lessons from either the Canadian right wing or ... the Canadian right wing. The Conservatives or the Liberals. The Conservatives have capitulated, not compromised, their values; and the Liberals just talk the talk that makes them sound better than the "right wing", they don't actually govern in the interests of the governed.

.
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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Excellent Post.
We have a surfeit of right wing parties here. It's so depressing to see the NDP in such a sorry state these days. Perhaps with the further shift to the right under Martin's rule, they can build up a good head of steam. They're not ideal, but right now, they're by far the best we've got.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. The NDP will never be the governing party of Canada, sadly...
but I would sure like them to be the Loyal Opposition at least. Canada is a "centrist" nation, relatively speaking. We, as a voting population, do not veer too far left or right.
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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Absolutely..
I can't see an NDP government happening. A larger, more effective opposition would be nice, though. That's possible. This new Conservative party will attempt to move to the centre to be elected, but thankfully the red-meat red-necks in my neck of the woods will sabotage it. Then they'll eventually leave, and form their own party. Maybe they'll call it the Reform party, or something.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. However,
before Rae's election, could you have seen the NDP forming a majority government in Ontario? (Sad how he squandered it, but that's another story...)

I think the NDP's federal chances are greatly enhanced by Layton's leadership. Come the election, he'll be the one generating the most excitement. Look for it.

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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Of course, I can't see one happening
but who'd have forseen Churchill being kicked out in 1945?, or Joe Clark's disaster in 79/80?. Just when you have the game all figured out, it's taken away from you and replaced by one even more complicated. Perhaps a realignment in Canadian politics is on the way. Your words bring hope.
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Which is the way it should be...
I like many people I speak to. Believe in social programs to combat poverty, which in turn combats crime. I believe that we shouldn't force legislation on groups of people who make decisions that harm nobody. (I.E. Same Sex Marriages)

Then again I like accountability in my government. I like them to be fiscally responsible. I like them to pay down deficits. I like them to keep taxes somewhat reasonable.

So for the most part I like the Liberal party (Though I have never voted for them) however I like many other citizens have expressed concern about the sheer power the Liberals exude and how that needs to be curbed.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. That's not the point I'm trying to make.
It has nothing to do with PHILOSOPHY of a party, only the ability to CLOSE RANKS.

The Canadian Liberal Party could be the Canadian MARTIAN Party: it does not seem to matter. The NDP is treated as a fringe (rightly or wrongly) and the Liberals CLOSE RANKS. The Conservatives in Canada would last about 30 seconds in the Republican Party, and then the rePukes would CLOSE RANKS to destroy them.

As a Socialist, ALL I am interested in is CLOSING RANKS on the left to REMOVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TO THE TRASH HEAP OF HISTORY, where it belongs.

If you could prove to Dean or Clark or whoever had a 50/50 chance, and Lieberman was a 100% shoe-in, I'm gettting my Lieberman sign TODAY just for insurance.

I don't like the situation any more than you do, likely much less. But if the current administration retains ANY power in the next 4 years, you can bet we will see Federalist Society and Opus Dei SUPREME COURT JUSTICES appointed, in place, and insuring the next 20 years of the Bush Agenda continues to be protected.

That is worse to me than any compromise with unacceptable Democratic Candidates, and I continues to astound me that no one else seems to get this.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I totally agree with the premise of ABB, looking in as an outsider...
I just think using the "morphing" of the Alliance and Conservatives isn't the best example because, in reality, it is a takeover by the Alliance not a true partnership and, therefore, not a compromise. Sadly, probably the best example of what you are expressing took place in California, where the moderate republicans held their nose and voted for Arnold.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm talking about their REFUSAL to join ranks.
The two parties have already agreed that the "marriage" must be approved by a 2 to 1 margin. The fringes of both parties have already started their "NO" committees and court battles. It will be their doom.

Sound like any particular US political party you know?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. LOL Yep, sure does!
Ahhh, remember when the saying was "politics makes strange bedfellows"? That no longer applies in this case. LOL
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Same stupid stuff here.
It's considered OK to piss on the other guy's candidate because "...hey, the primaries are ____ away....!" and in the process we tear each other and the party down, doing the research for the enemy.

If I were a rePuke RNC strategist, I'd just troll on DU 24/7365. No better place to pick up more dirt than the jokers running the circus ever will on their own.

Sorry this just trips me out. ANY aid and comfort to the enemy (the rePukes) is TREASON to the Democratic Party in my book.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. don't overread me
My confession of voting Liberal last month pretty much disqualifies me from judging anyone else's "compromise". ;)

Few would disagee with "closing ranks" when it is necessary. But there are questions that remain once that agreement is reached: with whom does one close ranks, and when is it necessary?

"The NDP is treated as a fringe (rightly or wrongly) and the Liberals CLOSE RANKS."

When necessary to retain power, the Liberals close ranks -- i.e. the right wing of the party "compromises" -- and adopt whatever they need from the NDP agenda to retain power.

These days, it's pretty much always left-wing Liberals (which there are) closing ranks with the right-wing Liberals and doing the "compromising", and we get nothing from the NDP/left-wing Liberal agenda. Closing ranks, or capitulating? Cooperating to defeat the opposition, or to defeat yourself?

Is it "necessary" to do this, if the end result is just the same/as bad as what you were doing it to prevent?

I decided that the end result - a Liberal government in Ontario - was *not* the same/as bad as what I wanted to prevent, another four years of vicious-beyond-belief Tory government. Others on the left would definitely dispute my conclusion, and would score points that I would acknowledge. I'm actually a little more "pragmatic" than some of my colleagues on this score. Maybe I'm just a little more deluded about the provincial Liberals' intentions; at least, I know that's what some would say. And I couldn't prove them wrong.

"If you could prove to Dean or Clark or whoever had a 50/50 chance, and Lieberman was a 100% shoe-in, I'm gettting my Lieberman sign TODAY just for insurance."

I might join you. I'm lucky to have the luxury of not having to decide! (And for that reason, also, I don't side with one position or the other in public; what stake I have in the decision isn't enough to override the conclusions that people of good will and intelligence who do have a stake in it may reach.)

"That is worse to me than any compromise with unacceptable Democratic Candidates, and I continues to astound me that no one else seems to get this."

But as usual -- it may not be a question of "not getting it", it may be a question of disagreeing with your conclusions because of different considerations being given different weight. They may genuinely disagree that a right-wing Democratic government would be better than George W. Bush, and different ones might have different reasons for disagreeing.

.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. And as you can see if you read around here today....
...the trolls and baiters are out in force, along with the bashers and beaters.

Nobody gettin' on the same train here. As usual.
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. You're missing the point however...
The Liberal party is not all that Liberal... Its merely a party that has stolen the rights thunder by taking the middle ground. Bill Clinton suceeded on the same formula.

Also there are a number of Canadian Alliance members that would fit in just fine in the Republican Party... You underestimate the ability of Canadians to love money and hate.
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. I agree Insomuch....
that it would be hard for an american to understand Canadian politics.

It's not a two party bitter partisan system the way the United States has become.

The Liberals are basically a center party, which works in that it steals the thunder of many traditional right wing ideals. However Social causes like Social Assistance, Unemployment, Health Care, Education, same-sex, and decriminalization have been defended as well.

Its hard to label any given province a "red" or "blue" province. The west may be viewed as a conservative bastion for its backing of the Canadian Alliance however its more to the fact it was the only party speaking out against "western alienation" which was deemed important to a number of westerners who wanted to send a message of dissent to the lords in Ottawa. (Saskatchewan has voted in the NDP (left wing) provincially the last three terms, and may again for a fourth term next week...)

As well it is correct that people are not represented by their government. The Liberals have amassed the kind of power the Repubs would be envious of and they can rule like a monarchy and do for the most part. Luckily for me I agree with many of their policies but it does frustrate me that we have no referendums or any say in important policy decisions. (Free Trade, Gun Control, Health and Education reform)
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Good post!
I agree re the Liberal power, even though I am a supporter and voted for them. I would like to see a stronger opposition party that would care more about debating policy issues and less about "gotcha" politics. All governing parties should have their feet held to the fire to defend their policies and strong opposition does that.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I envy you all.
To have a "Loyal Opposition" as opposed to the unending, loud, and bloody catfight of US Politics must be oddly reassuring, although I have seen nothing to like in the "US rePuke Wannabe" attitude of the Progressive Conservatives.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Our Progressive Conservatives are like moderate republicans, it is...
the Alliance Party, once the Reform Party, soon to be the Conservative Party, that is more like the rabid republicans. Their beginnings came from the religious right and their policies reflect that. The saving grace is they are marginal and will stay marginal.
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I just might vote Liberal next week...
In the provincial election. They're the one party that is talking the issues and not sniping and mud slinging at the other parties.

Then again I really don't want the Sask. Party to win.
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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Right. I'm an Albertan
If i believed that people were as right-wing here as they're made out to be, I'd have stuck my head in the oven long ago.
Our province is small 'c' conservative, but only to a point. However odious Klein is, the provincial Tories could be replaced by a liberal party with very little difference (that's not a good thing, btw!). We have our share of redneck nutjobs, but there is a fundamental 'Canadian-ness' about most people here. That just about keeps me sane.
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. What's weird about Alberta....
Is that Klein and the Tories are fairly old school conservatives. However when it comes to the Federal elections they embrace the wingnut Alliance party (instead of the Tories)which would certainly be the sort of right wingers Americans could identify with in the Republican party.

Alberta is the classic example of a Western Province disenchanted with the power of the east and the siphoning of its wealth to Eastern Canadian Interests.

Of course Alberta does have the reputation of being "Texas North" maybe its all the oil and cows or something...
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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Simple.. we've got money
Oh, we've got some real rightist nuts, but most conservatives here are more fiscal than anything. Everything becomes an issue about the Federals 'stealing' from us to give to Quebec and the Maritimes. I guess it's because people don't have a strong enough attachment to the idea of Canada. Perhaps we're too far from Ottawa. If you have a country, you're going to have rich parts and poor parts, and the rich parts have to someway subsidize the poor, otherwise why have a country at all. That's the crux, as I see it.
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number six Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Sorry - I changed the thread when writing it - but not the header
so it doesn't make too much sense.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. how very Canadian of you ;)
I mean this, not your header, heh --

"If you have a country, you're going to have rich parts and poor parts, and the rich parts have to someway subsidize the poor, otherwise why have a country at all."

But how hard it seems that is for many USAmericans to understand!

Oops ... maybe they understand it, and they just disagree with us.

;)

.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. US Philosophy: "I GOT MINE, GIT YOURS!"
We have made greed and miserlyness national virtues.

How else do you explain the CEO throwing a $2 MILLION birthday party for his wife in ITALY when you have children in West Virginia who never see a dentist until he comes to pull rotten teeth?

The US Power Elite feels that they deserve every cent they get, if you deserved any you'd be getting some, and GOTT MIT UNS.
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