Here is the deal people

[NNN0LHI]

I don't want to leave the Iraqi's high and dry as much as the next guy or gal after what we have done to them so far. But we are putting the very existence of America on the line here the longer we keep screwing around over there. If someone thinks that because of Blairs pretty speech yesterday with congress clapping like a bunch of idiots at his every word is making things safer for our country and making friends with the rest of the world you are sadly mistaken. We are in deep shit here. That deserves repeating. We are in deep shit here. For those who can't see that, you are in for a rude awakening very soon. This country is getting weaker by the day while we are over more making enemies then country can deal with. Use your better judgement here, and quit listening to these fools in our media who keep saying that everything is going fine and we are right on course. Because we are not on a course where everything is going to be just fine. Belive me here...please.

When we get to the point that our military has to be told to shut up because who cares what they think, we are teetering on the edge. This is nothing like like Vietnam. This is Vietnam times about a million. Please don't wait until our cities our burning and our military begins to refuse to fight. At that point it is too late. We are about to call out the National Guard if we have not already to put out a fire in Iraq with gasoline. And these guys are already tired and pissed trying to protect our airports, nuclear facilities, sea ports, and elsewhere.

There is no winning in our future in Iraq. We have already lost. Get it?

Don

[havocmom]

1. yeppers, Iraq is a quagmire to the tenth power

and it is also a very large Weapon of Mass Diversion. Keeps a lot of people busy while wholesale theivery takes place at all levels of government. And the robber barons are not concerned in the least about the death count, foreign or domestic. 'Cuts down on the surplus population', don't ya know.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing is immoral to pigs with no morals to start with.

[HFishbine]

2. Dean's Plan

Howard Dean's "7-point Plan for Multilateral Reconstruction in Iraq:"

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5364

[Rose Siding]

5. Don

What do you think of what Dean says here?

I agree we've lost more than a battle, but it is critical that we do what's right now. These steps look as good as any I've seen but I'm interested in what you think.

[NNN0LHI]

Looks like a great plan. But it is too late now unfortunately I am afraid

Wish I felt differently. Honestly.

Don

[BurtWorm]

3. You're right that this is a lose-lose situation

Unfortunately, we cannot just pick up and leave, which would be the equivalent of hitting and running. It's amazing how little Republicans--or some Democrats--learned from Vietnam. Or from Colin Powell, even, whose eponymous doctrine is distinguished by the inclusion of an exit plan in hand before any proposed action starts.

Unfortunately, the Iraqis and American service people are going to have to wait until brighter leaders are in charge of our government. This group is not going to get us anywhere but deeper in the muck.

[Stevendsmith]

4. Couldn't Agree More

Wake up, America!

[KG]

yes, we can leave now.

iraq is not a nation of savages. they had an educated, well-ordered society and a modern infrastructure before we pummeled it into dust.

they have engineers, scientists, and tradesmen.

get out now, and give them unlimited resources to buy the generators, water purifiers, heavy machinery, steel, and concrete and whatever the hell else they need to rebuild their country.

they are well able to do it on their own. they should be allowed to.


that would be the correct thing to do. i hold absolutely no hope of it happening. :(

[Droopy]

I've been considering changing my position on this

I've been one of those people who says now that we're there we must stay until there is a new Iraqi state. Otherwise we're going to end up with another Hussein type or an oppressive Islamic theocracy- no free speech, no freedom of religion and brutally sexist policy towards women. This is still my position. We have to stay until we have some form of democracy or we will end up with something just as bad as before. Maybe even worse. If we bail out, the people and the new leadership will have an ax to grind because we abandoned the process and left them in hard times. I can imagine a scenario where Hussein might even return to power given that we can't find him.

But here's what I've been thinking about, lately, and why I might change my mind. There was a post on here the other day by a Vietnam veteran saying something to the effect that he's seen this before. There was a similar situation in Vietnam in the beginning and look what that got us. Also, I read something here the other day from a soldier complaining about the poor leadership and the hardships he and the other soldiers have endured and are currently enduring. I think of my own oppostion to the war in the first place. Iraq was never a threat to us. Even a working joe like me could see this. So many people got caught up in the hype. I remember my pro-war co-workers talking about the upcoming war with great anticipation. Like it was some big play-off game or a championship fight. I think of the men and women who have lost their lives and who are still losing them almost daily. Then I think about the massive amounts of money being spent on this- a billion dollars a week. Then I think, oh God, let's just bring them home.

[Sophree]

6. I know. What is wrong with the f-ing Neo-cons?

Are they unable to THINK about the consequences of their actions?

Does their greed/hubris completely blind them to the reality of the dire situation they have created?

I hate being a pessimist, but you're right. We're screwed, whatever we do now.

:(

[Kamika]

7. stupid

LOL and did you think what will happen when we pull out of iraq?? you think everyone will be a westerner and love us??

If we pull out now we have to put a strong secular dictator in charge so the country doesnt fall into a islamic trap.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

talk about stupid

yep let's install another dictator, that'll do it!
:think:

I don't care if they want to have an islamic country.
It's not ours to play with.

Leave people alone. It's a basic human right called self-determination.
These problems extend from the fact that we have been denying this right to the people of the middle east for close to a century now.

The people in Iran were about to reform and become a more open society before chimpy and the gang started this shit.

[el_gato]

9. talk about stupid

yep let's install another dictator, that'll do it!
:think:

I don't care if they want to have an islamic country.
It's not ours to play with.

Leave people alone. It's a basic human right called self-determination.
These problems extend from the fact that we have been denying this right to the people of the middle east for close to a century now.

The people in Iran were about to reform and become a more open society before chimpy and the gang started this shit.

[ozymandius]

10. Don - question

(First of all, I always enjoy your posts.)

Now you bring up the military refusing to fight. This has already happened at the outset of this invasion. If memory serves me correctly, there was a group of service personnel who sued the government on the basis that Congress had no right to relinquish their Constitutional powers for a declaration of war. That suit was dismissed outright in the appeals process. Before any further motions could be filed - it was too late as the bombs started dropping.

What this represents to me is a sea-change among today's military. Active personnel sued the government. The suit effectively stated that the CiC is full of shit and Congress is an empty suit.

So, under what circumstances do you fear that our armed forces will not fight and would this necessarily be such a bad thing?

I have no problem with a soldier who invokes the uniform service code if he feels that conflict is unwarranted and illegal.

[NNN0LHI]

11. My answer

My worry is that before this nightmare is over, we may actually need the military to protect this country. Not in Iraq. But against a group of countries that can really put a hurt on us. And at that point our soldiers moral will be so low and so tired of the steady BS coming from this current administration and from fighting a country that was no threat to America they will not fight. On the contrary. They will revolt. And that is not a good thing. All of the nuclear weapons in the world will not do us any good at all if Russia, China, and France are part of that group of countries that align against us. Those nukes we have will be worthless at that point. That is my fear.

Don