Anti-semitism and DU

[BloodyWilliam]

I'm usually very easygoing and have an extremely narrow definition of anti-semitism lodged in my head (I don't immediately throw it out whenever someone has a problem with Israel's policies). But a disturbing trend I've found developing on this board is to present genuine anti-semitism.

Let's get a few things straight. I have a problem with the PNAC agenda. I hate what both the conservative fanatics (some of whom are Jewish) in this country and in Israel (who on one side are all Jewish) are doing to both the United States and Israel.

This doesn't mean "The Jews" are to blame (if there really is a group that can be called "The Jews."

Jews are part of both a religion and an ethnicity, but are by no means a single, solid political block. Much like Christianity and Islam, the trend is that the more rule-of-law religious types tend to be more conservative and the less religious (but still part of the group) individuals tend to be more liberal. You can't just group us together like "The fundamentalists" or "the Republicans." That sort of thinking is a slippery slope to genocide.

Rhetorically, "The Jews" are no different from "The Communists" or "The Terrorists." There's no real basis in reality, just a historical political scapegoat.

[illini]

1. I think your confusing this site with Freerepublic.

You need a link to the anti-semetic post that offend you.

[rooboy]

2. How long have you been on DU, William?

and can you please provide some links to threads where "The Jews" are targetted by posters?

There are constant battles between pro-Israelis and others, but I have not seen any anti-Semitism as you describe it.

[piece sine]

17. yeah but...

there have been plenty of rowdy discussion over AIPAC's influence in ther DLC/DNC and the role of Jewish Americans contributors to the Democratic Party. Political discussions that involve Judiasm are not, in and of themselves, anti-semetic.

And I hardly expect anyone here to spare Wolfie just because he happens to be Jewish.

[MrPrax]

3. I hate gross generalizations TOO...

like people who make statements like...
"But a disturbing trend I've found developing on this board is to present genuine anti-semitism."
"You can't just group us together like "The fundamentalists" or "the Republicans." That sort of thinking is a slippery slope to genocide."

I suggest you come up with concrete examples pal or I might break my tradition of not complaining for a LOCK.

[BloodyWilliam]

4. Very well.

I'll keep the posts unnamed, though they are from a recent thread ("Iraqis See Israel as Culprit in Bombings" in LBN).

In response to a post that said... "Yeah let's blame it on the Jews...it must be their fault (sarcasm on)."

"You mean they are immune from blame?
Let's hide our heads in the sand for fear of offending the Wolfowitz, Perle, Kristol, Sharon, PNACers. They aren't behind PNAC. No. Can't say that.

That's the ticket. Yeah. anti-semitism. Just say it and everyone must shut up. No discussions here."

...that said, as I review the thread again, I see that most of the comments are anti-Israel, not anti-Jew. However, the thinking I previously pointed out is still dangerous.

And as for Israel, neither side can call its hands clean. It's just two groups of desperate people influences by small cadres of fanatics and hardliners.

And though this isn't an AS comment...

"US soldiers are dying in Iraq FOR ISRAEL.

Yep. You bet your ass they're not dying for America or Iraq, and if you look at PNAC's agenda..."

...I believe all the LIHOP and even some MIHOP theories, and I'm surprisingly open-minded, but that's just damn weird.

[MrPrax]

10. Well that clears it up...

But one idiot, does not make a whole forum...
and the MODS created I/P which can get pretty disgusting at times...BUT on both sides of the debate...
The vast majority I have seen distinguish between say Zionism or Likkudism or the Kach Party...
If anything there is more a tendency to smear Arabs with the 'terror/religion' brush far more than denigrate the Jewish people here...

thx

[Lurking Dem]

5. All I can say is

it used to be worse.

There have been threads complaining of anti-Semitsm on DU every few months since the place opened. It is a hazard of the "big tent" and the fact that politics is circular not linear.

Eventually the Mods, under the Admin's leadership, started booting the anti-Semites off the board in fairly quick order. Some used to post links to StormFront. Some used to say things like "People have hated you for thousands of years, maybe it's time you asked yourselves 'why?'" A few days ago we had one tombstoned who was opining that the "tribalism" prevelant in Jewish society allowed them greater influence in world affairs.

It's horrible. It's ugly. It's a hard subject to broach because while gays are allowed to define what is homophobic to them and African-Americans are allowed to define what is racist to them, Jews are told to "quit playing the victim card" when stating what is, to them, anti-Semitic.

But the use of the Alert function and the Mods being on their toes has made it considerably better than it used to be.

[jonnyblitz]

18. Wrong. As a gay guy I have been told to stop the victim card

playing here on several occasions when I have pointed out what I have considered homophobic comments. I have been told to provide links to prove my point etc. So you are wrong that Jews are the only ones singled out for special treatment. Very wrong.

[KoKo]

6. This post belongs in "Ask Administrators." This person is starting flame.

I've been on DU for over two years. And, I've never seen any anti-Semitism. I've seen paranoia on both sides, but no post that advocated anti-Semitism would be allowed to stand on DU. The person and post would be gone pretty quickly.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. In the spirit of critical analysis, would it be better to discuss

Israeli-Palestinian issues in the future by bifurcating an ethnic-religious societal group such as the Jews into Zionist and non-Zionist, or fundamental and secular, as to avoid overgeneralization?

Examination of the multi-textural historic problems of the Middle East is not necessary antisemitic per se. I don't see DU commentators as marginalizing Jews or their opinions.

[LeahMira]

25. Raising hand timidly...

Israeli-Palestinian issues in the future by bifurcating an ethnic-religious societal group such as the Jews into Zionist and non-Zionist, or fundamental and secular, as to avoid overgeneralization?

http://www.azm.org/essays/szonyi.html

Meeting in Jerusalem in June, 1968, the 27th World Zionist Congress adopted the third major platform in the 85-year-old history of the organized Zionist movement. It reads:

THE AIMS OF ZIONISM ARE:

The unity of the Jewish people and the centrality of Israel in Jewish life;

The ingathering of the Jewish people in its historic homeland, Eretz Israel, through
Aliyah from all countries;

The strengthening of the State of Israel which is based on the prophetic vision of
justice and peace;

The preservation of the identity of the Jewish people through the fostering of Jewish
and Hebrew education and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values;

The protection of Jewish rights everywhere.


:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:/\:


"Aliyah" means immigration, literally "rising up" to Israel, and "Eretz Israel" means the land of Israel.

This is what Zionism is to me. It doesn't say anything about borders and boundaries or what to do about the Palestinians or even about Jerusalem (except that the statement was formulated in Jerusalem, hence its name). IMO, it is a statement of the right of a people to exist and the right of that people to have a homeland with institutions that reflect the common values shared by that people.

Except for the fact that the citizens of the U.S. have not experienced diaspora, I think that the statement could be adapted to the U.S. without much argument. Don't we all want the protection of the rights of our people everywhere? Don't we all want the strengthening of our own nation with its values based on the vision of justice and peace?

I can't imagine any Jewish person who is NOT a Zionist. Admittedly, there have been those who have used the label of "Zionism" as a cover for behavior that is less than exemplary, just as there have been, and are now, those who have used "patriotism" as a label for their own less than exemplary behavior. In spite of them, though, the words retain their meaning and those of us with a different idea of what the vision of justice and peace is all about refuse to let anyone take those words away from us.

If you want to call Ariel Sharon a terrorist or just a general SOB, you are entitled to that opinion and there are plenty of Jewish people in the U.S. and in Israel who will agree with you. But it really bothers me when Zionism gets a bad rap because I think that a lot of people don't really know what Zionism is really about.

[BloodyWilliam]

8. I'm sorry for any disruption,

And I'm really not trying for a flame war. I've just been seeing some disturbing trends when it comes to Israel. The same unpleasant generalizations I've been accused of, in fact.

[KoKo]

12. Bloody William, why don't you discuss your feelings with Skinner. If you

see this on DU, he's the person to discuss it with. It's your concern, so ask the person who owns the Board, not us who don't see it.

[bowens43]

9. I've never seen anyone on this site bash 'Jews'

I have seen plenty of well deserved criticism of Israeli policy, definately NOT the same thing.

[Lurking Dem]

11. The mods are pretty good

about deleting those posts but trust me they do show up.

Sometimes I wish they wouldn't get deleted but put in a file somewhere for people to peruse.

[thebigidea]

13. you must've missed all those nightly threads discussing the "Protocols"

one of the most popular threads in the Meeting Room! DU is a veritable NEST of anti-semitism.

[DuctapeFatwa]

22. Ctiticizing Israeli policy too harshly is a sensitive issue

Unconditional support and unlimited funding for the Israeli government is the official policy of both Repub and Dem parties.

Although Israeli policy is made by US corporations and implemented by Europeans against a Semitic people, and is not in any way reflective of Judaism or any religion, it is even a little questionable to point out the large number of Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere, who oppose Israeli policy and actively work for peace (and to apply humanitarian bandaids, which they do on pain of being declared terrorists)

Some of the corporate oligarchy are Jewish, others are Presbyterians, others are agnostics, whatever, but all share a deep and abiding committment to the generation of additional revenues into their own pockets.

Now you understand why it is necessary to label as "anti-Semitic" anyone who opposes starving and torturing Palesinian children.

[wtmusic]

14. Palestinians are a Semitic people as well

Bash who you must. You better have a damn good reason though.

[SiobhanClancy]

15. I don't see this as any different...

than the many threads which criticise Vatican/Catholic church policy. I'm Catholic,and haven't taken these threads to be "anti-Catholic". Am I supposed to be offended and just don't know it?

[thebigidea]

16. yes, you're supposed to be VERY offended

Perhaps a new thread about Catholic-bashing will provide the relief you need? Once it gets up to about 200 posts are so, that should do it.

[charlie]

19. Yes, lets

My umbrage meter needs a good pegging. I can feel a congestion of "sickeneds" and "disgustings" in my spleen that a good HARRUMPH might discharge. Help me out here and throw the first punch.

[thebigidea]

21. no problem

"I have been noticing a trend lately on Democratic Underground that has been upsetting me - the rampant bashing and attacks on Catholics which has disturbed many a late night DU session... the effect is not unlike being hit in a face with a feces pie - one minute, enjoyment - the next, a face full of crap! I simply cannot believe that the Pope is held in such contempt by non-Catholics, one would presume that his hat would command obedience and respect even to those who do not follow his whimsical ways."

Next up: French Canadians.

[kaitykaity]

20. Locking.

General Discussion is inappropriate for this thread
topic. If you have questions/concerns about DU policy,
please feel free to post them in the Ask the
Administrators forum.

Thanks,


kaitykaity
DU Moderator

[legin]

23. The problem might be

That the isn't any words or a conceptual framework that allows people to easily deal with the situation.

The eskimos have 20 different words for snow because they need them, we have only one. Some words are a shorthand that describ a list of properties that a particular object might have. so the eskimos might have a word for a type of snow that has the properties of a hard crust on the top that allows you to walk on it but if you try to drive a sledge on it you break through the crust and start sinking into very slushy snow. We have snow + a list of properties for that particular type of snow, the eskimos have just a word.

I've been thinking about this problem for over two years almost and through the fog that I call thinking I have come up with this and it may well be completely wrong:

Being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do what so ever with anything that is going on at the moment, this is evidenced by the fact that an awful lot of the posters here that I respect (and love too) are Jewish, but, very debatably, being Jewish to the neo-cons might partly have some influence on the way they think.

After two years work I'm still not very happy with this formulation either.

But the fact that I have to think about it and not just immediatly draw on my stock of well used words that I have in my vocabulary, hilights the problem.

And the word has got to have a bit of an emotional punch too, I want to insult these neo-cons, which is possibly why the emotional impact racist overtones in "the Jews control the world" is employed and has been recently by the leader of Malayasia. Saying 'it's not not a nesercery condition, but a contingent one' (whatever the hell that means), just doesn't do it for me, it's got no wallop.

[skypilot]

24. Several months ago...

...there was a thread here about Israel where a few posters were questioning the legitimacy of Israel and its creation. A couple of the posters' comments were so nasty that I had to throw my hat in the ring. The gist of my comments was that I appreciated the plight of the Palestinians today but also appreciated the plight of the Jews after the Holocaust and could understand how they would seize the oppurtunity to form their own homeland. One poster actually said that after the Holocaust the Jews should have "stayed where they were". I assumed that that meant the recently defeated Nazi Germany or whatever other European country that had expelled its Jewish citizens en masse and sent them to the death camps. Soon after one of the posters called the Jews thieves the entire thread was deleted by the moderators. I think the point that the others posters were trying to make was that being oppressed doesn't excuse certain behavior--and in general they are right. What really took me aback though was how completely unmoved they seemed to be by the ordeal the Jews had just been through during WW2 and their assertion that the Jews should have just packed up and slunk back to their respective homes and NOT entertained the idea of a Jewish homeland. I tried to post that neither he nor I had been through anything like the Holocaust and so were in no position to know what kind of decisions we would make if we were lucky enough to survive, but by that point the thread was deleted. I have rarely seen anything here as nasty as what was posted by this particular person and I don't think I've ever seen and entire thread deleted before or since.