Dean's in good shape to beat Bush.

[Guaranteed]

I'm hearing both those who say he's too liberal and those who say he's too conservative.
Just as a general rule, that's seems like an excellent sign to me. What do you think?

[Jim Sagle]

1. I think he's just right.

:thumbsup:

[janekat]

71. Gawd I hope you're right... I'm not convinced, however

n/t

[calimary]

108. I do, too.

I'm a happy Deanie. I like Clark too, but I've been a happy Deanie since maybe February.

[Hieronymus]

2. Neocons want him to run

I guess they think he'll be easy to beat. I think a combination of Dean and Clark, either one at the top, would be a sure thing.:kick:

[Selwynn]

6. God I desparately hope so

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

3. Clark is looking too green--his university classes were too "military"

for him to be much of an intellectual. I do think he would team well with Dean, with Clark in the VP position. After Dean's had his eight years, Clark can always step in.

[Julien Sorel]

5. Yep, Dean's gaffes on

taxes, Israel, cockroaches, affirmative action, medicare -- that's a seasoned candidate, alright. The good news is, Dean has more feet than a spider; the bad news is, they're all shoved firmly in his own mouth. One can only wonder what Dean would have done had he been 'green.'

[HFishbine]

17. Bobe Dole Impersonation?

Why is Clark doing a Bob Dole impersonation in your (rudely large) photo?

[janekat]

72. All Rove has to do is show clips of Howard sticking foot in mouth.

Dean makes WAAAY too many mistakes. Rove will eat him alive, I fear.

[Skwmom]

81. I don't think a "perceived" draft dodger

anywhere on the ticket is a good idea.

[Julien Sorel]

4. Hindenberg. Titanic. Perfect Storm.

Chicago Fire. 1907 Earthquake. 1998 Chinese floods.

I think Howard Dean is a hurricane of a candidate!!!!

[Closer]

53. Yo Billy

Dude, the thumb of Weasley Clark on your sigline looks like male genitalia.


Anybody else notice this?

[Closer]

54. Yo Billy

Dude, the thumb of Weasley Clark on your sigline looks like male genitalia.


Anybody else notice this?

[Julien Sorel]

60. LOL

I used to have a girlfriend who said that many women who got into televangelists did so more to have some kind of interaction with a male figure in their lives than they did out of love for God. In other words, with no real man around, they created a fantasy relationship with, say, Jim Bakker, as a way of compensating.

Some of the Deanite women remind me of that, especially when they start Rorschaching male genitalia out of a thumb.

[mzmolly]

70. I think the Clark followers suffer from a GI JOE complex myself...

How do you reconcile your penis theory with the fact there are 8 men running for President? Well, 7 men and one GI JOE :P

Now, ask yourself why on earth would women choose Dean's phallic appeal over the other 'taller' men - who I'm sure have larger ... uhm ... feet ? ;)



http://www.bigredtoybox.com/articles/joeindex.shtml

[wyldwolf]

74. Clark lead dean among women 16 percent to 13 percent.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LuminousX]

7. The problem is

it means neither side will support him. Luckily, I believe only a handful claim he is too liberal/conservative and the rest of the people believe he is just a guy who takes each situation as it comes. Most people aren't idealogues - Dean isn't either.

[Guaranteed]

8. He's gonna rip Bush apart so badly

I don't think anybody's even going to think twice in voting for him.

[jumptheshadow]

10. Tell me how he's going to rip Bush apart

What will be his strategy?

[Guaranteed]

15. Explain why he's lying about everything.

Show how all of his policies point back to making money for corporations, and even using our tax dollars to supplement corporate pocketbooks. Crack the image that is fronted ("Clear Skies" my ass), recharacterize. That's it.

[HFishbine]

18. "...think twice in voting for him." WRONG

I think about voting for him every day.

[Guaranteed]

9. All I know is it's gonna be a bloodbath.

Get ready for a knock-down, drag-out fight.
It's been a long time since we rock-n-rolled....

[FrenchieCat]

11. Even with the "tax all of the people" idea?

I believe that Dean's tax plan is a real deal breaker....you can only ignore so much as a voter. Without the foreign policy experience added on top, and bad demographical diversity.....I don't know where "he's in good shape to beat Bush" even comes from? Mystery to me.:shrug:

[Guaranteed]

14. Thing is Bush didn't really give the middle class a tax break.

I ain't seen a damned thing. When Dean gets the point across that rescinding the tax cut hardly means anything for the middle class, but that we're all going to get very serious benefits (i.e. HEALTH CARE) I think folks will go for it.
Anyway, that's why I said it was going to be a bloodbath, as opposed to a lynching. Dean's kind of weak there. Not that weak though.

[JaneQPublic]

35. Recent polling shows the public largely agrees with Dean's position

Regarding taxes vs. health care, and who benefits most from the Bush's current program:

[Guaranteed]

39. Boom.

There ya go.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. "tax all of the people"??? that's a loser if ever there was one

Boy I'll bet Rove has that zinger on the launching pad.
People who think Dean will rip shrub to shreads are fantasizing in a seriously deluded way. Dean will be on the defensive 24/7.

[Kahuna]

31. No Deanie can ever explain it either.

He's gonna win but they can't even guarantee that Dean will win all of the red states. Nevermind garner even one red state for good measure. Gimme a break.

[wyldwolf]

12. What I think is funny about posts like this is...

...the poster typically relies completely on his or her hunches, opinions, and wishful thinking.

I'm not opposed to anyone being in good shape to beat Bush, but would love to see some sort of indication beyond someone's gut feeling and excitment over a meetup.

I don't think anybody's even going to think twice in voting for him.

Why? What facts give you that impression?

Get ready for a knock-down, drag-out fight. It's been a long time since we rock-n-rolled....

An emotionally fueled campaign who's enthusiam doesn't match the reality of the situation.

Clark, on the other hand...

According to Ruy Teixeira, co-author of "The Emerging Democratic Majority" on "The Demographics of Clarkism":

"While Clark receives more support than Dean among both men and women, his margin over Dean among women is just 3 points (16 percent to 13 percent), but an impressive 12 points among men (29 percent to 17 percent)," Teixeira points out. "He also beats Dean in every region of the country, but especially in the South (25 percent to 8 percent). Also intriguing is how well he does among low income voters (less than $20,000), clobbering Dean by 26 percent to 5 percent. In fact, Clark bests Dean in every income group up to $75,000. Above $75,000, Dean edges Clark, 26 percent to 25 percent."

Furthermore, unlike Dean, Clark seems to have significant support from black voters. He's been treated gently by Al Sharpton and endorsed by Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-N.Y. "When Charlie Rangel speaks up for somebody like General Clark, it speaks volumes in the black community," says Brazile.

Brooks-LaSure, an African-American who plans to work on communicating Clark's message to black communities nationwide, points out that when Dean spoke at a black church in South Carolina, the audience was primarily white. Clark, he insists, will appeal to black voters. "The general's experience growing up in Little Rock, and then in the military, where they boast of having more African-Americans in positions of management and leadership than any other organization in the world, you can tell is not something new for him," Brooks-LaSure says.

Finally, Clark has support among a constituency that doesn't relate to Dean at all -- those who think that Bush is a basically decent man who's doing a bad job as president. salon.com

[Guaranteed]

16. The original point of the post

is that Dean must be in some kind of moderate position if people are calling him both liberal and conservative.
Do you have a response to that, any kind of analysis, or are you just gonna be bitter and angry?

[wyldwolf]

19. bitter and angry? Typical response...

...many Dean supporters take any news about Dean they don't want to hear as negative and/or personal attacks, so your response doesn't surprise me or offend me. I'm used to it. It is a sign of someone caught up in a euphoric movement, though void of logic - like being in love. But I can respect that.

People who call Dean a liberal are mistaken. People who call Dean a moderate are pointing out the mistake.

If the public perceives him as being too far left, Dean's handlers better take steps to correct the misconception.

[Guaranteed]

20. You didn't respond to my post. nt

[wyldwolf]

22. Sure I did, just maybe not the response you wanted... read it again...

You said:

The original point of the post is that Dean must be in some kind of moderate position if people are calling him both liberal and conservative.

I said:

People who call Dean a liberal are mistaken. People who call Dean a moderate are pointing out the mistake.

If the public perceives him as being too far left, Dean's handlers better take steps to correct the misconception.

[Guaranteed]

24. No.

You didn't respond to my original post in your first post. That's why you seemed bitter and angry, and that's why I said that.

[HFishbine]

21. "Dean's handlers"

Projection from a Clarkie. It is the politically unsure who rely on handlers. Dean is his own man and one reason for his popularity.

[wyldwolf]

23. His campaign managers, press people and PR people are his handlers...

...and to deny it show a serious lack of understanding of how campaigns operate.

Candidates hire professionals who tell them how to dress, how to speak, and what to say. The book appearances, negotiate air and press time, and seed the media with stories and quotes - among many other things.

Again, to deny it show a serious lack of understanding of how campaigns operate. But that doesn't surprise me from a Dean supporter. All of this is very new to a lot of them.

[Guaranteed]

25. You definitely have a bad attitude, sir.

I certainly didn't just "perceive" your post as a personal attack. You're angry and bitter.

"Again, to deny it show a serious lack of understanding of how campaigns operate. But that doesn't surprise me from a Dean supporter. All of this is very new to a lot of them."

[wyldwolf]

29. You just did it again...

I point out inconsistancies in your reasoning and I'm "angry and bitter."

You take exception to me pointing out that all this is new to many Dean supporters? Dean supporters love to point out how they are garnering new voters and people who have never paid attention to politics before and then get offended when it is pointed out?

[Guaranteed]

37. Your angry and bitter "discourse" has become tiresome.

You think you're "pointing out inconsistencies in my reasoning," when clearly you could be doing no such thing considering that I have not reasoned any arguments with you. All I've done is called you bitter and angry. Which I shall do again:
You're bitter and angry.
Goodbye.

[wyldwolf]

40. bitter and angry.... bwahahahaha, Tiresome? Take a nap.

Someone doesn't like my answer so I'm bitter and angry...

I'm assuming that by "goodbye" you mean you are through responding?

[sendero]

49. the problem...

... with your 'analysis' is that you assume that is the way it 'should' work and that Dean is doing it that way.

Au contraire.

Dean is most certainly a moderate, on that I agree. All the better to get elected. Anyone who thinks this country is about to take a sharp left turn, as much as I'd personally like that, is mistaken.

Dean is the *first* breath of fresh air I've seen in politics in a long time. You can hem and haw about his positions, you can talk about his weaknesses - but instead I will look at what he has accomplished.

1) He set the standard for calling the repugs out for what they are

2) He set up a new model for fundraising and grass-roots involvement

3) He is a very good, though not great, speaker and debater. Not best of breed, but good enough.

Folks who dissect minutae of his policies and positions seriously amuse me. No matter who the president is, the legislation enacted will be only a certain amount controlled by him. He can set the tone, but he cannot control the details. Spending a lot of time getting down to details is like studying a snowflake on a warm day. Futility.

I, and I believe most Americans, are voting for a man, not a set of positions. Sure, his policies matter, but to me only to the extent that they show his thinking and predilections.

So, who knows who will win the primary. I hope is it Dean or perhaps Clark. But I'm voting Dem no matter what, and will offer some financial support as well. And for all the people who want to take it personally that their horse is not the front runner, I hope they get over it.

[HFishbine]

26. A tornado of self-contradction

rips throught the trailer-park of convoluted thinking.

"All of this is very new to a lot of them."

Yes! Bingo! Ding, Ding Ding! There you go, buddy boy! Think that through a little bit and you'll come to understand why the Dean campaign is such a formidable force with the largest number of grassroots volunteers accounting for the most money raised by an dem candidate.

[wyldwolf]

28. This is exactly why many of Dean's supporters have no idea...

... how the inner workings of a campaign operates - some even deny Dean has handlers :eyes:

You admit Dean's campaign is fueled by people new to the political process yet don't see how they lack understanding of how campaigns operate?

Like a certain someone who doesn't think Dean has handlers?

Dean's grassroots campaign is a non-issue now. He can't manage to pull away from the pack - he is even losing in many polls to someone who's campaign is barely a month old.

[HFishbine]

30. Tired old losing way vs. New Winning Strategy

"some even deny Dean has handlers"

Link please?

"Dean's grassroots campaign is a non-issue now."

Right. If you say so.

"the inner workings of a campaign"

You'd do well to undertand that Dean's "people-powered" campaing is more than just a slogan. The old ways are out a new day is dawning.

Seems as if some pretty naive people, in your opinion, have somehow managed to raise the most money for any dem candidate.

[wyldwolf]

36. "New winning strategy" isn't winning, though...

Look at the polls. At best, it is tying...

Link for someone denying Dean has, or relies on, handlers? Here ya' go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=628063&mesg_id=628604&page=

Hey! YOU said it, then asked me for a link proving it. Pretty funny!

Links for Dean's handlers? Sure! Sorry to embarass you... not!

Dean's handlers and the candidate himself are trusting the people out at the edges to be essential parts of the campaign.

http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/management/story/0,10801,84238,00.html

Surely, it is admirable on occasion for a politician to admit he or she is wrong. Dean's handlers are spinning these missteps by saying he is not "programmed" and that he is speaking his mind.

http://gaytoday.com/events/071403ev.asp

Dean's campaign handlers will stay away from the trickiest foreign policy questions for now, an approach seasoned advisers think wise.

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0336/fahim.php

More? Google Dean's Handlers

I say Dean's grassroots is a non-issue now because it hasn't propelled him. He is tied or behind in most polls.

Seems as if some pretty naive people, in your opinion, have somehow managed to raise the most money for any dem candidate.


It doesn't take much to convince the inexperienced young and idealistic to send money.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

46. Whoa....denial?

"I say Dean's grassroots is a non-issue now because it hasn't propelled him."

Hasn't propelled him? You mean it hasn't propelled him from a 1% cute story about a Governor from a tiny state to frontrunner in the Democratic race?

Hasn't propelled him to a double-digit lead in NH and a serious challenger in IA, which was supposed to be a slam-dunk for Gep?

Hasn't propelled him to a record-breaking quarter for fundraising, where hundreds of thousands of people gave small donations totalling almost $15 Million?

Hasn't propelled him to the kind of popularity that causes the most powerful union in the AFL-CIO to declare that they will endorse "Dean or no one?"

A few months ago, it was funny to watch the Dean-haters suggest that Dean wasn't going anywhere. At this point, it's just weird to see that same kind of denial.

I sincerely hope that if Dean gets the nom, you won't let your embarassment at being wrong keep you from helping out.

[wyldwolf]

47. No, cold reality...

Dean isn't the frontrunner. It is wide open. He leads in NH but not in IA and not in South Carolina. He is losing in polls in California.

Despite his grassroots efforts, he only manages a statistical tie (and is losing) in various national polls to someone who's campaign is barely a month old.

His grassroots campaign took him to where he is but it hasn't propelled him as the hands down front runner.

I would say it has been neutalized.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

59. LOL, are you serious?

"only" a statistical tie in national polls (which favored Lieberman until recently, actually). Yeah, that sucks.

Well ahead in NH. Tied for the lead in IA. Leading in NM, AZ, MI, NY I believe.

Leading in fundraising.

About to take a huge union endorsement, or at least keep the others from getting it.

And all of that is not "despite" his grassroots efforts, it's "because" of his grassroots efforts. Ahem.

But okay, if you want to say Dean has been neutralized and isn't going any further, whatever. No sense arguing with that kind of logic, I have some campaigning to do. :)

[wyldwolf]

66. Well, let's break it down, then.

Of the newest polls...

The latest poll, the Quinnipiac University Poll, shows Clark leading Dean 17% to 13% with a margin of error of 4%. Dean would have to beat the spread, so to speak, to tie Clark.

The CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll shows Dean leading Clark by one percentage point - 16% to 15% - with a margin of error of 6%. - a statistical tie.

The Newsweek Poll shows Dean leading Clark by 15% to 12% - again with a margin of error of 6%.

The Harris Poll shows Clark leading. The Fox poll shows Clark leading. All results are very close - some statistical ties.

That is the national scene - where we plainly see that DESPITE his vaulted grassroots campaign and all those millions of dollars, he just can't seem to seperate himself from the pack - especially Wesley Clark who has barely been in the race a month.

Now for the primaries..

Dean leads in New Hampshire. However, New Hampshire is known for it's independent voters - voters with a history of preferring mavericks to party loyalists.

http://www.post-gazette.com/election/20031019independents1019p2.asp

In effect, the New Hampshire primary is an enigma. Pat Buchanan won it on 96. McCain in 2000. Clinton lost New Hampshire in '92.

Moving on to Iowa, Dean is tied with Gephardt - despite his vaulted grassroots campaign and all those millions of dollars he's raised.

...unless you go by the Zogby poll that has Gephardt leading...

Clark leads in South Carolina. He leads in California, and demographically, he cleans Dean's clock throughout the south (25% vs. 8%, source: Gallup.)

All this DESPITE his vaulted grassroots campaign and all those millions of dollars. He just can't seem to seperate himself from the pack - especially Wesley Clark who has barely been in the race a month.

Yes, the grassroots campaign and all those millions of dollars that got Dean this far has ceased to be a factor.

[dsc]

84. You are flat out wrong in your interpretation of MOE

An MOE of 4 points means the swing can be up to 8 points. In other words Dean could be 4 points higher and Clark could be 4 points lower. This is a basic fact of mathematics and has nothing at all to do with my avitar.

[wyldwolf]

87. OK, but that still doesn't alter the fact that...

..despite all the hoopla surrounding Dean's grassroots campaign, he can't out and out beat a candidate with a month old campaign.

Sad.

[dsc]

90. atually given what you think of Dean

the fact that your candidate, who has gotten virtually no negative press at all, can't clearly and convincingly beat Dean must say something.

[wyldwolf]

92. wow! what a dodge!

No negative press? bwhahahahahahahaha!

You should take that act on the road!

What happenned to Dean's super duper grassroots campaign! All that money isn't helping.

He can only tie Clark nationally, win a state known for voting for losers (New Hampshire), tie Gephardt in Iowa, lose SC and most of the south, and California.

[dsc]

110. In the course of five months

(June to Novemember) Dean has gone from Kucinich type numbers to a statistical tie for first. In Iowa, where Gephardt was expected to crush all comers, Dean is in a statistical tie. In NH, over half of which gets Boston News, Dean is leading by at least 10 points. In California he is in a statistical tie. He leads in NY and IL. Clark is right now our Colin Powell. We will see how he holds up once he actually takes some positions on issues.

[wyldwolf]

112. You still overstate things...

Before Clark entered, the only candidates that mattered, other than Dean, was Kerry and Gephardt.

With Kerry being labled "another Massachusetts liberal," and Gephardt portrayed as a retread, it wasn't difficult for an outsider to cut through it and rise to the top. Dean could have done that without the grassroots campaign - though not as quick.

When Clark, a candidate with true broadbased support, entered the race, it slowed Dean's momentum. So, that is the perspective. An angry Washington outsider with tremendous grassroots support but limited broad appeal meets a candidate with tremendous broad appeal.

[dsc]

117. Two things

First if I have overstated back up with a link. I was careful and only in Illinois may I have been overstating. I was using an old poll and hadn't seen one on a different thread. So put up or well you know.

Second, Dean is still moving up. He is climbing in NH both absolutely and relative to Kerry and in Iowa he is moving up absolutely though not in relation to Gephardt. Nationally he is staying the same it appears but that could just be that he is growing slowly but still growing. He has had increases but below the MOE.

[wyldwolf]

119. funny, I looked back over your posts in this part of the thread..

...and saw no link.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

98. Are you sad that Dean's not beating Clark, or what?

Clark is doing well, as I would expect him to; he has great credentials and broad appeal, and a similar Washington outsider status.

The insiders, however, have a different take:

"Dean’s Still The Insiders' Pick: This week’s Democratic Insiders Poll in the National Journal has more good news for former Gov. Howard Dean and Rep. Dick Gephardt. In the Insiders’ second week, Dean picks up two more first-place votes, bringing his total to 38 number one nods out of 50. Gephardt also picked up votes, moving from five first-place votes to nine. Also gaining a little ground was Sen. John Edwards, who received two first- place votes in comparison to last week’s lone ballot.

The old favorites of the chattering class, Sen. John Kerry and former Gen. Wesley Clark, have been spiraling down. Kerry, who had three top votes last week dropped to zero and Clark lost 4 votes to retain only one first place ranking. As Jim Barnes of the National Journal wrote of Clark, "The Army didn’t prepare the general for the battle he’s in now."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/26/politics/main502099.shtml

Now this is just one opinion, and I wouldn't say that Clark is "imploding" the way that people laughingly said about Dean last month, but given Clark's huge momentum coming in, why isn't HE more firmly in the lead? See how twisted your logic is? (probably not, LOL).

[wyldwolf]

100. Not at all. Just pointing out a fact that many Dean supporters ignore ...

...or deny: Dean isn't the frontrunner despite his glorious and heralded grassroots campaign.

As for your insider quote, I prefer Ruy Teixeira, co-author of "The Emerging Democratic Majority," who said Clark's followers are right to suppose that their man's appeal is demographically broader than Dean's. In a post on the Emerging Democratic Majority blog, he analyzes an October Gallup poll to discern "The Demographics of Clarkism":

"While Clark receives more support than Dean among both men and women, his margin over Dean among women is just 3 points (16 percent to 13 percent), but an impressive 12 points among men (29 percent to 17 percent)," Teixeira points out. "He also beats Dean in every region of the country, but especially in the South (25 percent to 8 percent). Also intriguing is how well he does among low income voters (less than $20,000), clobbering Dean by 26 percent to 5 percent. In fact, Clark bests Dean in every income group up to $75,000. Above $75,000, Dean edges Clark, 26 percent to 25 percent."

Furthermore, unlike Dean, Clark seems to have significant support from black voters. He's been treated gently by Al Sharpton and endorsed by Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-N.Y. "When Charlie Rangel speaks up for somebody like General Clark, it speaks volumes in the black community," says Brazile.

Brooks-LaSure, an African-American who plans to work on communicating Clark's message to black communities nationwide, points out that when Dean spoke at a black church in South Carolina, the audience was primarily white. Clark, he insists, will appeal to black voters. "The general's experience growing up in Little Rock, and then in the military, where they boast of having more African-Americans in positions of management and leadership than any other organization in the world, you can tell is not something new for him," Brooks-LaSure says.

Finally, Clark has support among a constituency that doesn't relate to Dean at all -- those who think that Bush is a basically decent man who's doing a bad job as president.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

104. Ok, you win...

your insiders know more than my insiders.

The fact is that both Dean and Clark have broad-based support. It's very likely that one of the 2 is going to get the nomination. This is GOOD NEWS, in my opinion. I don't need to win a pissing contest with you about where Dean should be vis-a-vis Clark in the polls right now. Dean's doing fantastic, and I'm a part of it. I remember when he was a major longshot, and I first sent him money.

He's doing well in so many areas that people thought he wouldn't, and his campaign has been consistently surprising and resilient. But if you want to argue that Dean isn't the "frontrunner", I won't stand in your way, it seems very important to you to make this point.

[wyldwolf]

106. And I have made the point, so we're both happy.

[HFishbine]

86. Spin Spin Spin

The MOE in the Quinnipiac poll is not 4%, it's 5%.

Why point out statistical ties when they suit you and ignore them when you are trying to pursuade? According to you, Dean is "tied" with Gephardt in Iowa polls where Gep is within the margin of error of Dean. But when the Zogby poll has Gep 1% ahead of Dean (well within the margin of error), you characterize that as a lead. Strange, but I think I smell desperate Dean bashing. Funny too how Clark's 7% in Iowa is ignored.

Clark's "lead" in California is also within your vaulted margin of error.

I'd still like to see a link that Gallup poll you mention. The only one I could find is this one:

Clark Slips, Now Tied With Dean for First Place Gephardt, Lieberman, Kerry close behind
which shows Dean one point ahead of Clark, having climbed 3% since the last poll while Clark fell 3%.

www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr031028.asp

[wyldwolf]

88. Dodge, divert, whine...

Nothing you've written alters the fact that despite all the hoopla surrounding Dean's grassroots campaign, he can't out and out beat a candidate with a month old campaign.

Sad.

[HFishbine]

93. Speaking of Diversions

The purpose of my post was to expose your twisted "facts." But, if you want to divert from that to an outright assertion of who can "out beat" who, you are wlecome to your speculations. I, however, would not be so foolish as to pretend I knew something like that before the first ballot is cast. I'll cede the bombastic certaintude to you.

[wyldwolf]

96. What twisted facts were those?

So I was corrected on what a margin of error is. Doesn't detract from the fact that Dean is tied with Clark's barely 1 month old campaign despite Dean's much heralded grassroots support and fund raising. Look as thought looking back over the entire year until now, Dean's campainged hasn't made that big a difference.

[HFishbine]

99. "Dean's campainged hasn't made that big a difference."

I've ceded the bombastic certaintude to you.

[wyldwolf]

101. great... so next time someone gushes about Dean's grand campaign...

...point out that he still can't seem to pull away from the pack and will certainly get no coronation by the DNC and democratic base just because his supporters are pissed and know how to yell.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

102. This one, for instance:

"looking back over the entire year until now, Dean's campainged hasn't made that big a difference."

It's only brought him from 1% to the top of the pack. And brought tons of new people into the process and out on the street. So that's just a ridiculous statement, especially when you qualify it with "looking back over the entire year..."

I know, I know, you are going to repeat yourself yet again: But WHY is he not thrashing Clark, with all that support and grass roots money?
Clark came in like gangbusters, let's just see what happens when the dust settles a little...

It's fun volleying with you, and I will be happy whichever Dem gets the nod -- esp Dean, Edwards, Kerry or Clark -- but you have to remember that us longer term Deanies have seen this "Dean's peaked" argument before.

[wyldwolf]

103. Oh, I see...

Dean's glorious and grand campaign hasn't made that big a difference. Candidates have done what he has done without the aid of such a vast grassroots campaign. Why, even Clark has tied Dean (and at times surpassed him) with a campaign barely a month old.

FACT!

Of course, I'm not saying Dean has peaked. I'm saying in the face of competition, his support gains more perspective.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

105. Okay, okay...

I said it above. I promise not to call Dean the frontrunner anymore. Not to you anyway.

But if you think Dean's campaign hasn't made "that big a difference" then you must have just gotten here.

[wyldwolf]

107. Nope! It only made a difference at the beginning...

...now, in the face a solid and broadly supported competitor (which he didn't have before) the true effect of his grassroots campaign in put into proper perspective.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

109. "Proper perspective"

sigh....whatever...

[wyldwolf]

111. yeah, whatever...

Before Clark entered, the only candidates that mattered, other than Dean, was Kerry and Gephardt.

With Kerry being labled "another Massachusetts liberal," and Gephardt portrayed as a retread, it wasn't difficult for an outsider to cut through it and rise to the top. Dean could have done that without the grassroots campaign - though not as quick.

When Clark, a candidate with true broadbased support, entered the race, it slowed Dean's momentum. So, that is the perspective. An angry Washington outsider with tremedous grassroots support but limited broad appeal meets a candidate with tremendous broad appeal.

[Kahuna]

32. The Deanies actually think that Dean can win...

WITHOUT the black vote! !#@!##@ No Democratic presidential candidate can win without heavy black voter turnout.

I wonder what makes them think that Dean will motivate black voters to go out on election day and vote for him? Black voters did it for Clinton and Gore. Dean is not Clinton or Gore. Black people can see the BS from a mile off. Dean ain't impressin' no one. There are black folks who of course will go out to vote no matter what. I'm one of them. But there are others (the majority) who really have to feel ya' to make that trip.

[quaker bill]

91. What will motivate Black voters to turn out

is not the democratic candidate.

It will be the anger over the failure to count their votes in 2000 combined with a completely rational anger Bush* and every thing he has done in office.

Any Democratic candidate that shows clear intent to change or stop the Bushit* going on right now will get a strong turnout.

[Eloriel]

42. Clark and Charlie Rangel

Some blacks aren't particularly impressed. In fact, the Black Commentator -- one helluva publication -- is downright disdainful:

http://blackcommentator.com/57/57_cover_clark.html
Rangel carries Clark's Water for Clinton

The Arkansas Conjure Man with the 125th Street office has sucked every brain cell from Harlem Congressman Charles Rangel’s 73 year-old skull. Rangel, who hopes to follow in the great Adam Clayton Powell’s footsteps as Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee should the Democrats prevail in 2004, is betting the whole legacy on a transparent lie – that Wesley Clark is an anti-war candidate. Bill Clinton told him to do it.

Rangel swallowed Bill and Hillary’s potion, gathered up his substantial bulk, and fairly ran through the corridors of the Capitol soliciting endorsements for the Clintons’ designated player. “This general is a protection for America, to challenge this president's policies without being called unpatriotic,” Rangel told the Associated Press, September 19. “I feel like I've gone back to get my big brother who's a four-star general."

Rangel’s descent into second childhood is embarrassingly sad. There is nothing to commend the 59 year-old Clark to Black people or to anyone else who opposes U.S. policy in Iraq. Wesley Clark is a kiss-ass to Power, a karaoke performer with no song of his own. “President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt,” wrote Clark on April 10, every bit as drunken and delirious as the rest of the Bush Pirates at the spectacle of Saddam Hussein’s wrecked statue. “Liberation is at hand.” Clark approvingly predicted that the American juggernaut would not – should not – come to a halt in Baghdad:

“But the operation in Iraq will also serve as a launching pad for further diplomatic overtures, pressures and even military actions against others in the region who have supported terrorism and garnered weapons of mass destruction. Don’t look for stability as a Western goal. Governments in Syria and Iran will be put on notice – indeed, may have been already – that they are ‘next’ if they fail to comply with Washington’s concerns.”

Nowhere can be found a Clark statement that marks him as anything but a militarist who had a slight case of the jitters prior to the invasion, became a cheerleader once he thought the U.S. had triumphed, and is now nervous all over again. Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting’s excellent September 16 review of Clark-babble concluded: “While political reporters might welcome Clark's entry into the campaign, to label a candidate with such views ‘anti-war’ is to render the term meaningless.”

And it goes on from there. African Americans are onto Wes (and Clinton), and poor ole Charlie is playing ... well, the metaphor is too embarrassing to even spell out.

Eloriel

[wyldwolf]

43. Yeah, they also called Dean, Kerry, Braun, and the others "barbarians."

They also said, " the most progressive candidate that white Democrats have so far offered from their thin-blooded ranks (is Howard Dean)"

Yep! Lots of credibility there. NOT!

[Guaranteed]

44. Yup.

It's funny how Clark's speeches about foreign policy really jive well with me. But, he was so damned weak when it came to the war....weaker than Kerry, even. I just can't get behind him. He seems like too much of a pawn.

[Julien Sorel]

51. The Black Commentator is a socialist rag

that has more standing with deluded white people (mirrors, mirrors) than it does blacks. I am the only black person I know who has even heard of it, let alone read it. Pathetic, that you would try to use that as an indicator of black public opinion, because it is anything but.

[Carolina]

56. I hear ya

BB. I'm Black and pride myself on being well-read, but I have never heard of the Black Commentator and really don't give a rip about what it says. There is no ONE Black leader, spokesman, or "indicator of black public opinion." I do generally think that Black voters will rally to the Democratic ticket out of loathing for Bush. But this time around none of the candidates has that special connection or bond, if you will, that Clinton (and by extension Gore) had. BTW, I have become a Clark supporter too because I think he can win. And if, as some say here, he's a shill for Bill and Hil, so what. THEY WERE/ARE WINNERS and this election we all desperately need a winner!

[FrenchieCat]

113. Problem is that The Black Commentator is a Shill for Dean.....

Everything he writes about Clark is bad, and everything he writes about Dean is good. Since there is never any middle ground on either, he is not a source to cite. I wrote him this letter about a Clark blog rant he did by virtually lifting Author Sydney H. Schanberg. I wrote this letter to him on 10/18-

I so disagree with you, the Black Commentator. I am also Black, and a supporter of Wes Clark, if that matters. It's unfortunate that one of this country's Genuine Hero should be cut down in such a savage manner in an obviously slanted and derogatory flame bait piece. It's unfortunate that it takes so much disingenuousness to fight your anti-Clark battle. His statement does not show that he said nothing silent until 2003.
http://www4.fosters.com/election_2002/oct/09/us_2cong_1009a.asp
http://www.house.gov/hasc/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/02-09-26clark.html

It's not as though no one has ever mentioned the PNAC plan before.....Hel-lo? You even knew about it. But beyond that, your theme that Clark might be crazed is exactly the point that the GOP wants you to make.....and therefore, you have picked you side, to re-elect Bush in 2004.

You may want to read the opinion piece in the Oct 27th issue of the New Republic. Although it is an opinion piece, it is, unlike your piece, backed up with facts that show just how badly the GOP want for people to play their game.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=bjq57awwJ36hUmhMuLKmgm%3D%3D

I earlier read an earlier article from "The Secrets Clark Kept" by Sydney H. Schanberg - Village Voice 10/01/03. This was my answer at the time, and it appears to fit in with the Black commentator's same take here on the General.

In my humble opinion, the article does not make a good case in questioning why General Clark didn't "speak up" leading to the Iraq war.

First, Clark felt he would be no more effective than Scott Ritter had been. Ritter, we recall, was sent into the land of the banished at the time of the "let's get our Bush war on" fever was going on. General Clark had not real proof....was not even a weapon inspector! His word that some people had told him things was nto going to quite do it...for goodness sake!

Since the war resolution had passed, and the Media was singing it's war songs....Wesley Clark would have only gotten fired and retired to the looney bin ASAP (he'd already gone through both of those doors the last time he stood up). If Sydney H. Schanberg think that Clark, singlehandedly could have stopped the war....he is dreaming.

General Clark did testify to congress and he did make a case to the need to take it slow, deal with the problem with via the UN and not rush to war. However, I believe that if he would have said...."some of my sources told me".....they would have said...so you want to discuss some heresay then?

The author of the article then writes....Why didn’t he share these opinions with us then, when an informed public might have raised its voice and demanded more answers from the White House?

Is this fantasy land or what?...I remember marching in two peace marches. The Village voice's Sydney H. Schanberg must have been on a different planet to think that anything that Wesley Clark would have said prior to the war about what he heard or thought would have made one bit of difference.

If one can recall what happened when Clark attempted to talk about the phone call he said he received on 9/11 by a Canadian Middle East think tank.....urging Clark to go on Television and try to pin the the blame on Iraq? he was laughted at, ridiculed, and called crazy.....I remember the reporters saying "there are no middle east think tanks in canada"...hahhahah

I think that General Clark did what he felt was the most effective attack against what he knew...he wrote a book as the war was ocurring (in which one is allowed to ones own opinions and can share heresay) and decided to run for President.....to get the American EVILDOERS out of power, hopefully for good!

SO THEN THE BLACK COMMENTATOR RESPONDS TO MY LETTER BY SENDING ME THIS MESSAGE:

You are one of several Clark supporters who have written, essentially, the same letter to us, containing the same illogic. We'll address these identical points in our October 23 e-Mailbox column.
Sincerely,

SO I WROTE BACK A RESPONSE TO HIS RESPONSE:
Dear Glen,
I would like to correct your response to me in which you claim that my letter is "the same" as others. My letter was an original with a conclusion that your "opinion" piece was not supported in a balanced manner (maybe there is a reason that several readers had the same opinion of your piece). It is unfortunate that you have decided to call my points of contention with your column as "illogic" without providing support as to how you have arrived at such an opinion (is there a pattern here?). It is desingenious to make such a statement and then offer that I should wait until October 23rd to know why you are saying such. I offer some humble advice that the word "illogic" could have been left out of your response, as it was unecessary. Antagonizing one who has written a negative review of your "opinion" piece seems unprofessional and rather childish.

At the end of the day, the fact that you have a column, does not give you a superior mind to those of your readers, however, your reply does display a certain "allusions of Grandeur" in its tone. it is unfortunate but revealing that you chose to respond in such a manner.
Respectfully,

SO QUOTING THE BLACK COMMENTATOR, does not leave me impressed. It's kinda like saying that I should be happy that Clarence Thomas is on the Supreme Court. Well, no it doesn't.

[JNelson6563]

13. While I realize some of the most

vicious Dean haters are in fact Clark supporters and soem of the worst Clark bashers are Dean supporters I'm here to tell ya.....

Clark; Fabulous foreign policy credentials. A definite Homeland Security candidate. The masses will easily buy this cause it's true enough.

Dean; Domestic experience which this country needs so badly it's horrifying.

What one lacks the other has. I think they have a mutual respect for each other and could greatly compliment the abilities of each other while covering each other's weaknesses. Neither are idealogues.

I think the Dems would be fools not to run these two men on the same ticket. It is a package waiting to be put together and sold by the tens of millions. These two would knock the snot out of tricky-dick and the simian. In the eyes of Republicans this would be the merger from hell. Hope all the hating idealogue supporters of both men can clear their vision long enough to see this.

Julie

[Kahuna]

33. I think Wesley used to have respect for Dean...

I can't imagine why he would now after the immature and desperate attacks Dean has lobbed at Clark.

[FrenchieCat]

115. I agree that I am losing respect for Dean

Based on the fact that debate with Dean people is often not more than name calling. I rarely link my negative bits on Dean, and lord knows I have collected a few.

I am sorry that Dean, at one point was the only candidate that had promises. However, until those accept that this is no longer the case, many Dean supporters just don't have a clue has to how clueless they tend to sound.

Dean Tax Stance is NOT a winner
Dean Foreign Policies and diplomatic experiences are NON existent
Dean Demographics DO NOT spell out a national win on election day.

The above are clear and rational.

However, it does not mean that Dean can not win the primary, because I do believe, with the sort of "PUSH Dean" media coverage that it is possible.

However, it's not the primary I am interested in, its the General election. Period.

[Eloriel]

48. Julie -- I am praying that won't happen

I presume you've missed the exhaustive discussions of some of Clark's many skeletons in his footlocker.

For me, the clincher was that he worked for Jackson Stephens, not to mention that Clinton got him into the campaign to Stop Dean. ANd of course there was that wargasmic little column he wrote about liberating Iraq (blecch!)

No, I don't want Clark anywhere NEAR Dean, not on the ticket and probably not in any cabinet or other post in a Dean administration.

Fortunately, I do believe Dean has wised up about Clark.

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

52. What 'wargasmic column' was that?

It seems that you never stop spewing lies, no matter how many times you are corrected.

[wyldwolf]

58. She hopes people who have never heard them before will hear them..

...and people who have debunked them in the past won't be around when she repeats them.

[JNelson6563]

78. yes I have missed them

Did you bookmark any of them? If so PM them to me?

Thanks El--
Julie

[Julien Sorel]

121. Perhaps you would do better to convince your friend

to actually post these chimerical articles here, so that they can be judged in an honest and open fashion? She did, after all, make an unsopported statement, and then disappear when challenged, in true Deanite fashion. It would be nice to see one of you actually stand behind the slurs you spew so easily.

[farmbo]

34. You can't say Dean's too liberal...then attack him on his gun position

That just shows the hypocrisy of the attackers.

And every time they attack his gun position (state not federal regulation) you bring more Union and "Reagan Democrat" support to his campaign.

[Guaranteed]

38. Dean's in a great position.

He's got the liberal base, and at the same time he's got the other Dem contenders doing his work for him trying to paint him as conservative. If he just rolls with it (within reason, of course), it's clear sailing.
Dean obviously did some long term planning here. It's all working out great.

[wyldwolf]

41. How does he have the liberal base?

And what it the liberal base?

Yep, he planned alright. Losing the south, the men, the women, the military, the african americans, and all income brackets up to $70,000.

[livinontheedge]

45. Dean has the organization and the message to win.

Clark's inconsistencies on the war and lack of organization will derail his campaign. The combination of Dean's money and his followers' passion will earn him the nomination.

[FrenchieCat]

118. You mean the inconsistency of

Dean on the war....This is what is so pathetic....

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization.

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

Then a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said.

Four days later on PBS's News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Dean said United Nations authorization was a prerequisite for war. "We need to respect the legal rights that are involved here," Dean said. "Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them."

Then on June 22 2003: Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, another Democratic contender, followed Mr. Kerry's lead yesterday with a similar accusation on NBC's "Meet the Press."
"We were misled," Mr. Dean said. "The question is, did the president do that on purpose or was he misled by his own intelligence people?"

[ozone_man]

50. He is in the perfect place.

Not just for me, but to win both the primary and the general election. We (I) want to accomplish the feat of not only winning, but moving the Democratic Party away from the right wing DLC, closer to the historic position. Keeping in mind that we are going through difficult economic times and that a tax and spend liberal is not going to fly. Deficit spending can only be justified if used to create jobs and health care, etc., because the massive national debt will kill us eventually.

Dean is a fiscal conservative and social liberal, but more important, he just seems to have a wholesome, personable character and an great sense of values that people will find attractive in a candidate. I think as people get to see and hear him, they will find something to like about him.

[Carolina]

55. where do you live?

I like what Dean has to say and I like his consistency about Iraq. BUT sorry to say this, Dean cannot carry red states like the one I live in. Every Dem here is shuddering at the thought of Dean winning the nomination. No war experience, no foreign policy experience, a former governor of a very small (~700,000 people, rather homogeneous) state. He won't be able to cut it against the big Bush of guns: negative ads and media vilification. He won't play well in the South and West.

Wesley Clark was here yesterday and the growing consensus after his talk and Q&A session was that the Democratic Party needs a candidate of his credentials to pull the military folk and wavering Repugs. A Clark/Dean ticket? Perhaps.

[HFishbine]

57. Ancedotal Tarheel

Sorry friend, your expereince is no more valid than mine, which is very different.

Far from every dem in NC "shuddering" at the thought of Dean winning the nomination, there are hundreds in my city alone who meet once a month and who are very excited about the prospect of a Dean nomination.

North Carolina is going to be an uphill battle for any dem nominee, but while Clark is meeting with the party insiders, a grassroots army is mobilizing to hit the streets for Dean in North Cakalaky.

on edit: Since we Tarheels recognize NC as the real Carolina (It's is aferall, home to the Carolina Panthers and the Carolina Hurricanes) I assumed you are in NC. I could be wrong, in which case... never mind.

[Julien Sorel]

61. So Dean's 7% support there is only an

illusion?

[HFishbine]

62. Source?

Link please.

[Julien Sorel]

63. Poll came out yesterday and was widely discussed.

Dean 7% in South Carolina. He's in single digits in every Southern state I know of, in fact.

[HFishbine]

65. Right

No source to show that Dean is at 7% in North Carolina. More empty wishes.

[Julien Sorel]

67. Aha.

So Dean's at single digits in every Southern state that has poll data, at 7% in neighboring South Carolina, but in North Carolina now, there things are different. Empty wishes, indeed.

[HFishbine]

68. Laughable

Why twist words?

You said Dean was at 7% in North Carolina, I asked for a source and you still haven't offered one. If you can't find a source, maybe an apology for innacuracy is in order.

[Julien Sorel]

69. Speaking of

'innacuracy' (sic), please show me where I said he was at 7% in North Carolina?

[HFishbine]

76. Where?

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=628063#629457

Now, do you have a source to back that up?

[Julien Sorel]

79. Since when is North Carolina

'there?' I was referring to the South in general. However, if you have some information proving that Dean is doing better in North Carolina than he is in South Carolina, or anywhere else in the South, you might have something going here.

By the way, and speaking of 'innacuracy' again, hundreds of people meet once a month in your city to support Dean? Not according to the meetups. According to those, maybe a hundred people in the entire state show up to a typical Dean meetup.

[HFishbine]

83. Right-O

Considering you repsonded to my post in which I was writing specifically (as clearly stated) about North Carolina, and made no mention of the south "in general," I guess it seemed resonable to think that when you tried to contradict me in your reply, you too would have been writing about North Carolina, when you referred to "there." Next time I'll know that your geograhical definitions of "there" could be a state, a region, a country or the Earth "in general."

But, now that we've got that cleared up, I'm sure you'll provide us with a link to support your original assertion that Dean is at 7% in the south -- now that we know that's what you meant.

And since you insist on drawing attention to your innacuracies, what about your most recent falacy that "maybe a hundred people in the entire state show up for a typical Dean meetup?" Surely you have a source for that, right?

Oh, okay. I'll save you the trouble. Meet-up has 1,413 members for Dean in Raleigh, NC. There are 350 in Greensboro, 471 in Charlotte, and 386 in Asheville. That's a little more than your supposed hundred in the entire state, huh? Next time, get your facts straight.

And here's something you might come to appreciate, a source: http://www.meetup.com/locale/?country=1000&localeId=&zip=27410&setLocale=0

[Julien Sorel]

114. Some more wrong assumptions, along with the typical Deanite

falsehood.

Considering you repsonded to my post in which I was writing specifically (as clearly stated) about North Carolina, and made no mention of the south "in general," I guess it seemed resonable to think that when you tried to contradict me in your reply, you too would have been writing about North Carolina, when you referred to "there."

Your own post was replying to a SC person. Of course, you still have no evidence supporting the ideas that Dean is doing better in NC, anyway.

And since you insist on drawing attention to your innacuracies, what about your most recent falacy that "maybe a hundred people in the entire state show up for a typical Dean meetup?" Surely you have a source for that, right?

Oh, okay. I'll save you the trouble. Meet-up has 1,413 members for Dean in Raleigh, NC. There are 350 in Greensboro, 471 in Charlotte, and 386 in Asheville. That's a little more than your supposed hundred in the entire state, huh? Next time, get your facts straight.

You said, that 'hundreds of people meet each month who are excited about Dean,' or words to that effect. Notice: meet. As in show up. To 'prove' this, you point to how many people are enrolled in Dean's meetup group in the area; however a simple drill down on the number of people who confirm they will actually show up to the meetup demonstrates out of all those hundreds of people, maybe 7% actually confirm they will attend. In other words, your statement about 'hundreds of people in your city alone' who meet (your word, and as opposed to sign up at meetup.com), was typical Deanite hot air:

http://dean2004.meetup.com/topic/vote_rsvp_results.jsp?e=1011191

This shows about 100 confirmed people to meet in R-D -- a good number, to be sure, but not 'hundreds' as you claimed. Based on my own experience with the meetups (which includes local Deanite meetups), maybe 70% of those who confirmed will actually be there. How do you get 'hundreds' out of 70? Deanite mathematics, that's how.

[Carolina]

64. nope, SC

and the nom de plume is based on a combination of my real name and the state I now live in.

[mzmolly]

73. I agree with you...

:toast:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

75. Jack of all trades

master of none.

[janekat]

80. Hate to say it - but Dean's "diplomatic skills" remind me of Bush

Is Dean going to piss off our allies and our enemies ala Bush?

Sometimes when I look at all of the fighting he does with others, some of his conservative attitudes on the Death Penalty, the Justice system, gun control, AIPAC I have nightmares that we could be nominating a Bush-lite.

Look at how Bush had a lot of people convinced he was going to be a moderate... Then BAM!

All I can say is that I hope Dean's campaign rhetoric is real and that he has truly done a 360 degree turn from a lot of his attitudes and actions from when he was Governor.

[wyldwolf]

82. So true...

"I tend not to be terribly likeable on editorial boards. They don’t bring out my best because they’re going to be tough and I am combative. And so when I get tough questions, I get combative. I’m not one to sort of lean back and say, ‘Well, now, boys…’ you know, all that stuff, I don’t do that." -- Howard Dean

[HFishbine]

85. I agree

What we really need in the White House is a Yes-Man.

[wyldwolf]

89. ha ha ha! You just agreed Dean is like Bush...

Post #80.

[HFishbine]

95. Sigh

Hardly. Sarcasm is alsmost always lost on weak minds. Have a day.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

116. Then I'm sure a lot is wasted on you.

have a day!

[ozone_man]

120. I hope he doesn't change at all.

What attitudes and actions do you think he has changed, since he was governor? Certainly change is good, if it is in the right direction, but I was not aware of much change in his positions. Do you have any specifics? He was governor of my state for 10 years, so I think I have a pretty good gage of things, especially environmental views.

"All I can say is that I hope Dean's campaign rhetoric is real and that he has truly done a 360 degree turn from a lot of his attitudes and actions from when he was Governor."

[Monte Carlo]

94. I'm not at all confident Dean can survive the GOP media blitz...

... that WILL be coming for the man who wins the Democratic nomination. His message is fine now, but I don't think it'll be in the same shape once the GOP machine is through chewing it up for the public view.