Men create expectation of beauty to keep women down

[George_Bonanza]

I don't know how to respond to this. For one example, this would mean that men have created Christina Aguilera's dirty image in order to oppress women. Yet it's Christina's personal choice and intense drive to promote that image. In fact, she has said many times that she believes it empowers women. So on one hand, there are talks of a societal net to keep women down by continually sexualizing them. And on the other, you've got a woman continually sexualizing herself as part of liberation. They contradict each other.

I agree that today's rap videos push the limit on using women as props. I can't honestly say let's censor them. The bad thing is that there are women totally willing to work like that. The best thing we can do is observe it, but know why it's not the most respectful or dignifying thing in the world to do.

There seems to be two conflicting sides of this feminist argument. One side says that overt sexualization is what keeps women down. The other side says that overt sexualization will empower women. These are the Madonnas and Christinas. I don't know who the former is.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

1. Whatever continues to promote the bottom line is all that matters

Shock, repulsion, degradation and overt sexuality work well for men's pocketbooks. The bottomline is usually at the expense of somebody else, in this case, women, in my opinion.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

4. My take on it -Whatever it's worth

In popular culture, women are exploited ( usually by thier own permission) on the things about a woman that sells: T & A. This means they are going after a man's wallet. This does degrade women to a point ( and a man's as well). No mention is made of a woman as a human being; one with an intellect, one with an opinion- a unique point of view, a person with value and a human being. I don't blame men, or women for that. The main problem is most of this is pandered to the base instincts of men. If we had some kind of balance, the selling of the sexual power of women would be more tolerable; but there is rarely such a balance. Rarely do these human qualities of women get even a knod in our society. If they do, they are frequently lableled in negative terms: an avowed feminist-as if I knew what that meant. Ask Rush, he knows what that means.

[Joinup]

2. From what I understand...

Physical beauty and symmetrical body measurements are an indication of general health and reproductive health. At least that's what the Discovery Channel told me.

[Pontus]

3. So blame evolution?

Wife angry at a husband who spent the night with his buddies at the local strip bar -- "But honey, Darwin made me do it".

[BlackVelvetElvis]

6. But what if the husband

was left alone while the girls had a raunchy night out. Believe me, girls do know how to do this. Would that make the man feel, in any way, degraded as a man? Would he feel betrayed or that his girlfriend/wife would be comparing him with some incredibly beautiful man she saw that night. It happens.

[Joinup]

7. No

Any guy who does that is on his own and even evolution won't step in and save him.

[rman]

13. not blame, but cause

and it is cause only on a primitive level.
'laws of evolution', like any 'law of nature' is *descriptive* not *prescriptive*. Any description of (some aspect of) the world can only be an aproximation, and Darwin does not "make" anyone do anything.

Another aspect of this whole men-and-women thing is the fact that humans not only have instinct and emotion, but also have intellect.
We can use our intellect to rise above being steered primarily by our instincts and emotions, especially where those work out to our disadvantage. Both men and women have a lot of work to do there.

[Joinup]

14. i disagree

Most of the time nature is wisest, people over use their brains

remember the mind is a wondeful servant but a terrible master

[HFishbine]

21. Backwards

"remember the mind is a wondeful servant but a terrible master"

I think that's backwards. It rings truer to say the body is a wonderful servant but a terrible master.

[Selwynn]

5. Well, while all I really want is for women to be happy and whole...

...I must say that I sure do love their beauty, and the ability of females to take my breath away, cause me to cherish the experience of their movement and grace, and feel happier about the world.

I don't know if that's just me "keeping women down" or not, but there it is...

[maggrwaggr]

8. women buy women's magazines and are their own worst enemy

in this regard.

Women set themselves up for failure. Why is this? Why does anyone set themselves up for failure?

Nobody can actually look like a digitally enhanced supermodel.

[George_Bonanza]

9. I think the gist of it is this

Some women want women like Madonna and Christina to take it off and celebrate their sexuality, but they don't want the men to ogle and like it. That's illogical. It's sort of like when women want the right to go around topless. They'd probably complain that too many men ogle at them. Like women don't ogle a six-pack stud? You can't change people's behavior just to make yourself feel better. This is what irritates me about some aspects of feminism, which is an all-around agreeable movement. They seem to want things both ways, or in special ways, foregoing the bad parts and grasping the good things.

Men are getting more and more beautified as time goes on. Perhaps this will be a level playing field in the game of beauty.

[Joinup]

10. Never

[REP]

11. It's Internalized

As in cultures where female genital mutilation is practice, it is women who practice it on other women. While I can see an individual's expression of hypersexuality may feel liberating to that person, in this culture it is repackaged and sold to all women as what they should be - even if they don't personally feel empowered walking around with their ass hanging out of their pants. It seems to be, in this culture at least, the pressure to conform and fit in is pretty dominant, and those expectations of women seem to be focused on sex. It's a way to make money, and may not be easy to resist.

[Isome]

12. Internalized... like oppression or hostility. n/t

[Mari333]

15. Only if a woman lets that happen to her

at some point, you just get tired of it and grow up. You can choose to like yourself, or choose to hate yourself. After all, you have to live with one person the rest of your life, and thats yourself, so, you might as well choose to really become best friends with yourself ....=)

[enough]

18. How long does this take?

"at some point, you just get tired of it and grow up."

I didn't get there till my late 40's.

My "kids" (women, mid-20's) are a lot closer to it than I was at their age, but it is a struggle.

The pressures on young women to be EVERYTHING are huge -- you have to be self-sufficient, ambitious but mellow, socially conscious, fit, buff, simultaneously sexy and respectable, all without appearing to try. And always that neverending demand to look beautiful.

They know full well that this is an insane set of ideals. They know that life can't be lived according to other people's expectations. They know that the media lie. But the energy it takes just to fend off the pressure is great.

I don't know, do young men feel this also?

This is something we talk about a lot -- glad for any thoughts or advice.

[Mari333]

20. I guess because I got beat up in Junior High

because I was so shy and gawky, I realized way back then that I wasnt going to let what I looked like carry me thru as to who I was..It was when I turned 17 that I suddenly changed to being "pretty" by the absurd beauty standards of the time, but it was also the height of the womens liberation movement..so I didnt take the "beauty" crap too seriously, (altho I was in a beauty pageant LOL for the money of course)...
Luckily, as I aged I took it less and less seriously, and now, as an older woman, I REALLY like it, because I dont have to do a damned thing but enjoy life and to hell with the BS...Im grey headed, and I just hang around the earth for a while..
all we are is dust in the wind,
( no truer words then ever these days to me)

[enough]

24. I agree, Mari

Life gets easier just about same time your hair goes grey. There's some kind of freedom that comes along. I would never want to dye it -- it's my flag.

I just wish I could pass along that freedom to the next generation so they wouldn't have to go through all the same struggles one more time.

[izzie]

16. How did this get on here?

Do recall that it is a mans world and we raise those men. We even used to stay home and care for them as they grew up. We worked at making them fit into the society that they had to enter.Women may have more rights in the West but it is still a mans world and most women know where the bread is.I love the Quote that women have so much money, It is usually the last few years of their life as their husbands left it to them.

[rasputin1952]

17. Complicated issue here, but it can be made simple,...

IF you are willing to look at the truth.

Strip off all of the window dressing and get to the base; everyone wants to be liked and accepted. We can build from there.

Some people have physical attributes that are "better" than others, people naturally enhance these attributes, and attempt to cover "flaws". Jealousy is a powerful motivator, and when one person sees someone elase getting attention, they tend to create situations where they will receive the attention. Here lies the crux of the problem. Rather than being accepted as who we are, we insist on being accepted for something we are not, the end result is animosity.

I try to look at the whole person. I enjoy people that are warm and caring, yet can be bold and daring if the situation arises. This has little to do with physical appearance, but physical appearance can not be counted out. While I am not a fan of make up, I am a drawn to those that have "taken care" of the physical aspects of their bodies. While fat does not necessarily mean a person is slovenly, gross obesity is whole different issue.

I look beyond the physical nature of a person, and try to get closer to the inner being. Beauty is fine, I have no problem with "eye candy", I just find that many who spend too much time on their physical attributes, fall short on their spiritual beauty. A balance would be nice, but I expect little in the balancing act, after all, we are taught to be vain, and vanity is a hard habit to break.

I don't mind being ugly, I just hate being ignorant.

O80)

[HFishbine]

19. My Take - 4 what it's worth

An enlightened man, such as myslef, appreciates all of woman.

With this view, a woman can embody a heavenly beauty but she is not diminshed as a human by a single measure. Mind, spirit, and body are appreciated. I think those who would condemn women for celebrating their sexuality are just as mysogonistic as those who see a woman only as a sex object.

Women are facinating and complex. Just because some men can appreciate a woman on an instinctual level of sexuality does not automatically mean that they don't also appreciate other qualities.

[laura888]

22. some men are only able to handle the stereotypes...

... the madonna vs. hore, etc.

I've often wondered about this - its as if they are unable to see any grey areas or see women as being just as complex as they are(perhaps they view women as another species?). To me, this is just laziness on men's part.

Anyway, back to the main point: I think the oppressive beauty thing (we women complain about) is the product of the media and cosmetics companies and the like. There's no conspiracy. The media and many manufacturers profit from images of beauty. But these images just keep feeding the stereotypes I described above, so are a bit damaging to women who want to be understood and valued in every area, not just their looks.

A good book on this: The Beauty Myth, by Naomi Wolf.

[NashVegas]

23. Don't Know Who Said That But I Don't Buy It for a Minute

We all hear guys go off on what a babe the latest hottest supermodel is, but outside of that, but when it comes to real women most guys would just be happy for their mates to be presentable. (Not speaking about those shooting for a 'trophy'.)

Men who make the calls on the videos you speak of, and fashion shoots, Hollywood, etc are not operating in the real world, but fantasy.

It's the marketing departments in the cosmetic and fashion industries who go out and sell the fantasy and try to tell us it's a reality we women should aim for.

Those women who buy it hook, line, and sinker are the group who exert the most pressure on the rest of us.

When you peer outside of the reproductive sweepstakes, it's women who make a big fuss over other womens' clothes, and make-up, not men (unless you're wearing something cut low enough to give the more blatant flirts - the kind who like women so much they'd flirt with your half-dead grandmother - a broad smile). "Oh, Betty, that blouse is to die for!" "Where'd you get that purse?" "Blue eye shadow, oh that's sooo '70s." etc, etc.

If it were really men (the average joe, not the corporate executive who gains financially when we swallow) who were putting the pressure on us to doll up and look like Catherine Zeta Jones, we'd see men, not women in the commercials directed towards us.

[stlsaxman]

25. John Lennon and Yoko Ono put it pretty succinctly...

right smack dab in the middle of the "cultural revolution". They tie the spirit of
the civil rights movement to womens liberation with (to me at the time) brilliant
effect. They raise many issues here. Personally, being a man raised by three
older sisters in the 60's, "Our Bodies- Our Selves" and "Ms." magazine were
"required reading" (suggested, really). As soon as I heard the first track of the
album "Sometime In New York City", I knew exactly what they meant when they sang-


"(chorus) Woman is the nigger of the world
Yes she is...think about it
Woman is the nigger of the world
Think about it...do something about it

We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be a slave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down, we pretend that she's above us

(chorus) Woman is the ....

We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend

(chorus) Woman is the ....

We insult her every day on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb

(chorus) Woman is the ....

We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance "

copyright John Lennon/ Yoko Ono

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Today's dose of hyperbole

I think we're focusing on America here and it's not the case. Yes, the lot of women (and men for that matter) elsewhere in the world is pretty bad.

But in America, though far from perfect, it's pretty darn good. Most importantly, women can choose their life path here. If they want to stay at home and raise kids, they can do that. If they wish to work seven days a week and strive for wealth, they can do that. And if they wish to try and balance the two, they can choose that path.

And, if they wish to strip, be porno stars or astronauts, they can do that too. In fact, some women become quite wealthy doing so.

It's all about choice.

[stlsaxman]

27. I wholeheartedly aggree- it IS all about choice...

and the freedom that that choice presents us with. It's so much better now than
it was a mere thirty years ago.