Is There A Backlash Brewing For Dean?

[DrFunkenstein]

People talk about Dean is too liberal or too centrist, but I don't think either matters. Dean is a radical polarizer in style, which is what matters more in the general election. Dean has already polarized the Democratic Party - him vs. the cockroaches - and the general election would be far, far worse.

Dean has a ceiling of about 30-35% of the Dem voters - which is fine in a 9 candidate field, but will not hold up as the field narrows. People say he has a long-term plan, but what kind of long-term plan includes alienating the supporters of every other camp? Seriously, who hasn't he insulted in this race?

The Iowa Caucus is going to be a big shock to Dean, because it works kind of like a run-off system. He may be tied for the lead, but fewer and fewer people are willing to make him their #2 choice. I spent months with him as my #2, but right now he's my #8 (sorry, Joe).

I can only speak as a Kerry supporter, knowing that Dean has saved a special place in his heart for Kerry. But I wonder what the Clark people feel? The Kucinich people? The Gephardt people? The Edwards people? The Braun people? The Sharpton people? The former Graham people?

[1monster]

1. In alphabetical order, I like

Clark, Kerry, and Kucinich. But Dean is way down the list... definitely not first, second, third, or even forth.

Bob Graham was my guy and I haven't decided which I support in the general election, but, of course, if Dean gets the nod, I will, albeit reluctantly, vote for him in the general election.

[ModerateMiddle]

2. Dean has an incredible amount of support

from a very large democratic base. He is bringing in folks who never thought their $10, $25, $50 contributions would mean anything in the big scheme of things, and are finding out that it DOES make a difference. He is a champion among folks who were rightly distressed that nothing seemed to be able to stop Bush's march to war. He and his campaign have astutely given frustrated people something tangible to do while they wait for an opportunity to toss the Bush Cabal out of Washingtong. What he has done is indeed remarkable.

However, he is also a very polarizing candidate. There is political capital to be earned by being an "outsider" and dissing the "insiders", but he might be taking that way to far - as exemplified with his "cockroach" comment.

[DrFunkenstein]

6. Absolutely - I Am Not Taking Away From His Grassroots Work

Which is just plain amazing. And the fact of the matter is that Dean is not radically different on most issues with the other candidates - but he presents himself as a radical alternative to them. Which is fine, but I've always felt that you don't get any taller by cutting people down. To make matters worse, Dean revealed himself as extremely thin-skinned when the others finally hit back (after months and months). That doesn't bode well for the general election, because if he can't keep quiet in a debate while Gephardt talks about Medicare, how is he going to handle Rove? Dean works much better as a solo artist, but unfortunately that ain't politics.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. I'm not impressed

My wife got sucked into his polished internet campaign- why? because she went into the candidate pool determined to find a fresh alternative to Bush and she found the one who stuck out from the others:
Dean. Doctor. Governor. Vermont. Progressive state. And then the thinking stopped not long after those introductory descriptives.
Dean was the predetermined result. Not much thinking went into her choice, (and she's pretty damned smart).
There must be many others like her, who don't like to take more than 5 minutes out of their lives choosing a president.

[Eloriel]

21. Boy, you don't think much of your wife, do you?

Pretty darned insulting.

Eloriel

[NewYorkerfromMass]

23. I have stated events as they have occurred

My wife is smart, but she doesn't waste a lot of her time on politics.
Dean's packaging is quite attractive but there's really not much inside- at least not compared to Kerry.

[mzmolly]

33. Well you just described the average American..

If Dean's well packaged were on our way.

Oh, I disagree with you on Dean and substance. He's got mucho substance.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

3. Dean is a good man and a fiscal conservative who would.....

our economy back on track, but his entire campaign has been about playing to the base of the party and he has won over some disgruntled New England/Moderate Republicans too! No suprise here!

However, he will turn off swing votes and will be unable to win this election! His whole campaign has been about bashing Bush, which is not a bad thing at all!!! But, you do need to win over these swing voters and a Clark, Edwards, or Kerry would better do that!

[HFishbine]

15. "playing to the base of the party "

Actually, his greatest support is among independents -- you know, 35% of the voting populace.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. I'm a swing voter for Dean

In fact, I can't stand Kerry or Gephardt at all. I like Edwards okay, but if he starts acting like Kerry and Gephardt with the lies about Dean then I won't like him, either. Kucinich is WAY too radical for me. Clark is one I could like if he had his positions more organized and his past support of Bush didn't make me nervous. I like Braun, but think she's too nice and sweet for the job. Sharpton is funny, but there's something about him that doesn't allow me to take him too seriously as a candidate. Lieberman is too whiny and too much of a "Dole" type(boring and a bit of a fuddy-duddy).

Dean is the only one I can really feel good about supporting. He is already appealing to swing voters. Ironically, most liberals don't understand how easy it would be to win over swing voters. Here's all it takes:

1) Be fiscally sane.
2) Lay off gun control and focus on going after the criminals who use guns, not the guns.
3) Support legal abortion but don't come off as if it's something to celebrate. It's really sad, although necessary.
4) Give us a common-sense, honest and forthright candidate who doesn't lie and we'll vote for them.
5) Frame the issues in a way that makes sense to us. Help us make the connection between policies and how we are affected.


Dean does all these things and that is why he's the perfect choice for swing voters like me.

[TomNickell]

4. The Remarkable thing....

For all the pundit talk and spin: 'Dean is Frontrunner'. 'Clark is frontrunner'. 'Clark Fades.'

NONE of these guys has broken 20% in any national poll.

EITHER, there is some DRAMATIC shift and somebody takes over.

OR, we go to the convention with nobody having a majority.

My -guess- is that Dean does have a ceiling; he's a bit divisive and too many Dems (like me) wonder whether he is the most likely to beat * decisively. (I would vote for Dean happily; I just worry that his credentials don't make * look tiny enough.)

[alexwcovington]

5. Stop attacking each other

None of these people would face a "backlash" of any sort.

Check with your doctor -- you have GDitis.

[Code_Name_D]

20. Sadly, these attackes will not stop.

They will in fact grow and become far more sivear. Especualy as Dean grows in popularity. The DLC however, can not have this. Their own coshy jobs are at stake. Unfortuanly, some self proclaimed democrats can not see this, and even help them along.

They are fooled into thinking that the enemey is Bush, when in fact the eneimey is the corprate power that controles BOTH the GOP and the DLC. Dean is the outsider, and so the speam campain will contiue.

Ignore the charges of Dean being too librial, centrist, conservative, or what ever. Ignore the glamer of Clark's vaunted military carrire. Ignore his stars, and the fancy grafics. Ignore the hollow retoric, ignroe the flaimers who would defend on, and attack the other.

Focuse on the issues. You must educate yourself about the issues, then test each canadate against the issues to see if they are pandering to miss-conceptions, or actualy trying to address the problems we face. When you do that, you will find Clark's fear campain holds no moer power over you, than Bush's fear campain dose. And you will be able to make your own desictions, and yes, even your own mistakes. That is true democracy, that is the true choise.

[w4rma]

7. DrFunkenstein says: I signed up as a GOP Team Leader…

…they send me talking points!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=72587&mesg_id=72884&page=

[welshTerrier2]

29. a little disingenuous, don't you think ... ??

i read the post at the link you provided ... it seemed to me to be encouraging "infiltration" ... not "acceptance" of the GOP ...

or did I miss something ???

[sangha]

32. Not disingenous

deliberate twisting of words to produce an ad hom

[DrFunkenstein]

34. At Least He Linked To The Original

He could have just taken my quote out of context and left it like that.

PS - I still recommend signing up! Good for a giggle and it gives you a heads up on what they are saying. Plus you can check out this HILARIOUS recruitment video:

http://www.gop.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/TLvideo2.htm

[ibegurpard]

8. I'm sure you wish.

n/t

[Upfront]

10. Dream On

There is a Dr. in your way Dr.

[JNelson6563]

11. It's funny, the only people I know of who obsess

over the cockroaches remark seem to be Kerry supporters. It's like a meme they try to plant and cultivate 24/7. In fact, here at DU it has been my experience that, while grossly out-numbered by Clark supporters your vitriol toward Dean seems to be of equal proportion. Of course only a fraction of them (Clarkies) participate in the constant, getting-dreadfully-tiresome Dean-attacks, so that may explain the lack of disparity in this behavior.

I realize the offense caused by your miscomprehension of the cockroaches remark but I would recommend you work on other things. Like your guy's stance on Iraq and his inability to tell Bush "no" when it really, really counted (IWR). How about workingon some grass-roots projects. Here in northern Mich I've heard n'ary a word from or about Kerry's campaign. I am in the thick of local politics too, have a good, informed idea what's going on.

But, yanno, if you feel senseless attacks on another Dem, because he hurt your feelings, is the more constructive, productive way to go have at it. I guess as long as you are tearing down another you are not building up your candidate or convincing others to vote for him.

In the meantime I'll continue working for my candidate, wasting no time in making mention of the others to attack them, promoting Dean and the campaign's meet-ups locally and we'll see who fares better in the end, deal? Oh yes, in my efforts, I will be mentioning all that is wrong with Bush as pResident because he is the real enemy here, in case you forgot or something.

Julie

[blm]

24. Kerry did say no to Bush on IWR. No invasion of Iran and Syria

and No, the UN and Congress must be presented the evidence first.

Amazing how little credit those Dems get who were stuck negotiating for a better bill and stuck paying for those concessions with their votes.

[JNelson6563]

26. yes, they pay for their votes, as it should be

Interesting though that you were the only one to comment. You're a fabulous example of what I talked about in the post you replied to. I love all the time and effort you devote of attacking Dean. It's all the less you have to help your own candidate.

BTW, did I miss something or was Kerry's name on that amendment that would reqiure Jr to report to Congress before going to war? I recall my own Senator offering it.....and when it was voted down he said "no" to the IWR. In the middle of an election. In a seat almost as safe as Kerry's.

Julie

[blm]

30. Pay, as in Kerry paid to keep the UN as part of the process,

and as in paid to prevent further invasion into Iran and Syria. Something that so few want to understand because it doesn't fit into their own political goals.

JNelson, I am here defending Kerry from lies and some of those lies were put forth by Dean and his supporters starting last January. Had they not used inaccurate statements to describe Dean's real record as a centrist, and had they not described Kerry as "Bushlite" then I would be treating Dean the same way I treat Edwards or any other Democratic candidate.

[Bandit]

12. "Seriously, who hasn't he insulted in this race?"

Try the American People. Remember them? That is who Dean speaks too. Not to the elite DLCers or even the DNC. He speaks to the American People and has found a ready audience.

[realFedUp]

17. yes, Dean has found his audience

and we're sticking with him.

[caledesi]

22. We sure are, rfu. n/t

[blm]

25. A gullible audience who believes the corporate media when they say

that Dean is the only one who has spoken out against Bush. People who believed the corporate media when they first labeled Dean an antiwar liberal when he was neither antiwar OR liberal.

[killbotfactory]

13. Yeah, the other candidates and their staff don't like Dean whooping their

asses, when earlier in the year they were making fun of his chances, calling him the next McGovern because he opposed the Iraq incasion, and comparing people who went to meet-ups to star wars characters, said he peaked to soon, would never be able to raise money, etc...

Now they look like fools.

That's the only backlash I can think of.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. Dean, Dean, Dean.

If Kerry and his supporters spent as much time on Kerry as they do Dean, they might actually achieve something.

It borders on psychotic fascination.

[ozone_man]

27. That's so funny!

Did he actually say Dean, Dean, Dean, ...?

These other guys need to focus on their own issues and policies that will take us forward from this Bush mess. Americans need leadership now and the first one to demonstrate this is going to win. So far, Dean has shown it.

[Rowdyboy]

16. In order: Clark, Dean, Kerry

Edwards, Gephart, and the rest.

I really like Howard Dean. Had Clark not gotten in the race, he'd probably be my guy.

[Duder]

18. Nope

After all the eggs are gathered the hens will stop cackling.

Meanwhile, some Kerry supporters are polarizing:
"I signed up as a GOP Team Leader...they send me talking points!"

[DrFunkenstein]

31. Offhand, What's Polarizing About Signing Up?

What divisions am I making? I have started whole threads based on GOP points about Kerry. I found out that Kerry supported disarmament since 1997 because of the GOP research.

I don't find that nearly as polarizing as calling the other candidates "Bush-lite" or "unelectable" or "second-tier." As for Dean's supporters, I've taken months of people calling Kerry a war criminal, accusing him of supporting slave camps, all kinds of crazy sh*t.

PS - You are putting the eggs before the chicken. Dean has to win the nomination before they are in his basket. My original point is that I believe Dean is going to hit a ceiling when the chickens come home to roost.

[bread_and_roses]

19. I keep trying to find a reason

to like Dean...hey, I enjoy a bandwagon as much as anyone else, plus I have been greatly impressed by his grass-roots campaign. But nothing I read makes him sound like anything but status quo to me. Willing to take on the pharmacuticals and insurance industries? No. Willing to support progressive taxation? No. The "peace candidate"? Well, not exactly. Oh, and a firm supporter of civil liberties? No. Fairness for the Palistinians? No. Understanding of the effects of racism in this country? NO. Understanding what working class jobs are like for people in their 60's? No. After a while I will probably remember some more. I am in no one's camp right now, though remain signed on for DK, because I want to see real Progressive stances voiced in the campaign as long as possible. I know he hasn't a hope in hell of getting the nomination, and I doubt that if he did he could win. Not because of his policies, but because of his presentation. Americans are never going to elect a very short man who sounds shrill. Kerry would be my choice over Dean any day, though the IWR is hard to get by, and keeps me from any enthusiasm over him (sorry, DrFunk, I read all your posts and they don't convince me on that one...I think it was pure pandering). But other than that, his record is pretty good...for a mainstream politician. Many progressives I know are intrigued by Clark, but I havn't paid much attention to him yet.
(edited for some of the things I forgot to mention).

[ryharrin]

28. Yup, and he peaked in March too.

Oh wait, no, he peaked in June, err, I mean September. I don't see why to regular, non-politically focused people Dean wouldn't be a great second choice. He hasn't really done anything to offend them. They don't care about him insulting Democratic congresspeople, they probably actually agree with him strongly. Also, they probably don't really care about the infighting between the candidates too much. I don't see why he won't walk away with Iowa handily when it becomes clear that him and Gephardt might be the only with the 15% they need to get delegates.