Zapruder. Seeing is believing? (I'm guess not...)

[William Seger]

Here are frames 312 and 313 from the Zapruder film. In 312, I've outlined a section from the back of the seat to the back of Kennedy's head, and included Jackie's elbow. Then, I've copied that section and pasted it into frame 313, which is very blurry compared to 312 but I think I've got a reasonably good location for the copied section (and in fact, I've tried to place it as far rightward as seemed justified). As you can clearly see, Kennedy's head has snapped FORWARD at least 2 inches or more in the 1/18th of a second between the two frames. By a similar process, it appears that the head is still about that far forward in frame 314, then in frame 315, it has returned to about the same position as frame 312, then continues backward and leftward after that. Watching in real time, this very quick snap forward is definitely visible, and it certainly appears to me that Kennedy's chin simply bounced off his chest after that forward snap.

This one film, at least, seems to be perfectly consistent with a shot from the rear.



(Edited to include link. IMG tag doesn't work?)

[Must_B_Free]

1. What I see in the Zapruder film

Is that the driver clearly slowed down for the shot.

This is the most revealing aspect... The shooter knew to wait for the shot to be given to him - it was set up in advance.

[Cooley Hurd]

goofy dupe - ignore...

DU2 just hiccupped

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Could the driver simply be reacting to the chaos in the back seat?

I know they're now trained to react appropriately to an attack (by flooring the limo), but this was in 1963...

[Must_B_Free]

4. he slowed down before the shot

he's going along, then he slows down, boom, speeds up again.

The time between the slow down an the boom was not like someone was following with a scope and then saw an opportunity... It was like more like "slow down on the mark so we can execute the shot".

Go look at the film and see if you agree...

[Cooley Hurd]

9. But he slowed down after the first shot hit Kennedy in the throat

Yes, it is curious why the driver slowed at all, but the driver was going full parade clip when JFK was hit in the throat. If the driver was to slow the limo at all (to facilitate a clear shot), he would've done it closer to the Depository, not when he was nearly under the underpass...

Also you don't know if the police motorcycles in front of the limo could've slowed in reaction to the first and second shots, causing the limo driver to slow to avoid hitting them. The motorcycles were out of frame...

[Pepperbelly]

2. what is compelling is the EXIT wound damage to the front ...

of the poor man's head.

[Cooley Hurd]

5. Despite what the ER staff at Parkland said...

The film pretty clearly shows the front of the head exploding, consistent with an exit wound...

[Pepperbelly]

7. the Parkland ER staff ...

changed their tunes when they were allowed to view the autopsy files in the archives. :shrug:

I think the kill shot clearly came from behind and also, for other reasons, do not believe that Oswald fired the shot or that the TSBD was where it came from.

[soothsayer]

6. chain of custody is the problem here. gov't confiscated the film and

godnoze what they did with it, but I think it's generally accepted that some frames are missing, and in some parts the top and bottom of the frame don't match up quite right.

anyway, we'll never know the truth on this thing, that's for damn sure.

[Cooley Hurd]

10. Tampering w/ Zapruder film is of concern, but...

There's been literally dozens of photography experts that have poured over the film and most agree that the film is unedited or tampered with...

[RandomKoolzip]

8. The forward snap is a result of recoiling backwards AFTER being shot

from the front. The bullet clearly enters Kennedy's head from the front. Earlier sequences of the Zapruder film corroborate this. The frames you see here show no bullet entering the skull...this is not the entry shot frame.

Think about the law of every action having an equal and opposite reation and you'll see why his head went forward for less than a second; a violent blow to the front of the head will make it fly backwards, then the head will right itself: the recoil.

Any analysis of the Zapruder film shows conclusively that the gunshot was fired from the front of the motorcade...there are VHS copies o an improved print which came out in 1998 that are still available.

Sorry, since that damn ABC doc came out, I've been having to school Single-Bullet-Oswald-did-it types left and right. There was a conspiracy involved, and one of the shots (the lethal one) came from the grassy knoll. There should be no doubt about this.

[William Seger]

11. That's absurd

"Think about the law of every action having an equal and opposite reation and you'll see why his head went forward for less than a second; a violent blow to the front of the head will make it fly backwards, then the head will right itself: the recoil."

I have thought about it, and I've stopped listening to other people and examined the film for myself. The conspiracists have been claiming that a shot from the rear should have sent the head forward. That sounds reasonable, so I took a closer look. And there it is: the head snaps forward!

What you're now saying is that "A" and "not A" both prove the same thing? :shrug:

"Any analysis of the Zapruder film shows conclusively that the gunshot was fired from the front of the motorcade."

Mine doesn't. :-)

[MrPrax]

21. I have always been suspicious...

of people who argue JFK stuff with the term 'conspiracists' as in the phrase
"I have thought about it, and I've stopped listening to other people and examined the film for myself. The conspiracists have been claiming that a shot from the rear should have sent the head forward."

I have always been impressed with the 'I' part...as in 'my learned opinion as a scholar on the subject'.

As a novice with NO axe to grind, but have read through the literature, the film clearly shows more than one shot and several more...and his brain going backwards!!

[William Seger]

22. Really?

Sorry, I don't understand your objection to the term "conspiracist"; I think it's a perfectly accurate term for someone who thinks that Oswald wasn't alone, and not at all derogatory. (Which is why I intentionally chose to use it instead of the more common "conspiracy nuts" :-)

And sorry, but what you claim "the film clearly shows" just doesn't agree at all with what I see with my own two eyes. As I mentioned in the first thread, I've been fairly neutral on the conspiracy thing, and even now, all I'm claiming is that the Zapruder film simply doesn't look like a shot from the front, as the conspiracists claim.

[Minstrel Boy]

12. But you're just looking at Kennedy - look at

the Connollys and Jackie.

All their heads move forward between Z312 and Z313.

Why?

Inertia from the deceleration of the limousine.

Just before the head shot, it decelerated to 8 mph from 12 mph.

In subsequent frames, the Connollys clearly continue to move forward as Kennedy is thrown back.


on edit: "deceleration", not "acceleration."

[William Seger]

13. Huh?

"Inertia from the acceleration of the limousine."

Inertia from acceleration would snap the heads back. Slamming on the brakes would snap them forward.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. right, I had it reversed.

I was never good with physics. The limo slowed.

[William Seger]

16. Well anyway...

You can't see where Jackie's head is because of the cloud of blood, and Connally isn't in the frame. Sorry, your conjecture is not substantied by any evidence.

[Minstrel Boy]

17. What do you mean Connally isn't in the frame?

Of course he is. Not in your isolated blow-ups, but he's there in Zapruder. And he and his wife move forward with Kennedy, and continue moving forward as he recoils. Have they been shot from behind as well?

[William Seger]

18. Can't see it...

I don't know; I used enlarged versions of the frames downloaded from http://www.jmasland.com/z_frames.htm, and Connally isn't in the frame. I couldn't seem to find any better sequence, but I'll look again.

Anyway, just to test your theory, I went back and looked at the frames I already have, and what I see is that there isn't any appreciable head movement between frames 110, 111, and 112. Then, very suddenly, in the "head shot" frame 113, and again in 114, the head is at least 2 inches farther forward than it is in 112. That doesn't square very will with your deceleration theory, unless it happened precisely in the 1/18th second between 112 and 113 -- the very instant the bullet hit.

Anyway, what I've learned from this little experiment is something I've long suspected: that facts and evidence are completely and totally irrelevant to the conspiracists. Some people apparently understand that the film doesn't square with their second shooter theories, so they simply claim it's been altered.

[Minstrel Boy]

19. You still are not looking

at the head movements of the Connollys. You are relying on enlargements of Kennedy, which ignores what else is happening in the limo. If you're going to make sweeping claims about Zapruder and those of us who see what we see, please first study the film.

And the limo deceleration has been measured, and thanks to the angle it's actually perceptable in the Nix film.

"facts and evidence are completely and totally irrelevant to the conspiracists"? Take a hard look in the mirror. Your coincidence theory is faith-based.

[William Seger]

20. Here ya go!

Well (ahem), the whole point of this posting was that my opinion is not "faith based" anymore, and I posted the evidence that led me to that opinion. Watching the video in real time, the head appears to snap forward very quickly and violently -- just as Rather said, and not at all like the limo decelerating -- so I looked closely at the frames, and yes, the head moves forward at least 2 inches. Now, you assert, with no evidence at all, that everyone's head was jerked forward by deceleration and dare me to disprove it. Fine.

Looking around the Web, I see that a lot of people have noticed the head-snap between frame 312 and 313. One person calculated it at 2.3 inches. Here's one analysis (which also agrees with my opinion that the chin bounced off the chest after frame 314, btw):

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ2.htm

Look at the sequence on the left side of the picture about 2/3 down the page. (There's a lot of other relevant info on that page, too, if you're really interested.)

But those pictures aren't really very good. I finally found some better frame captures on the Web, and following the idea of the sequence on the page above, here are all the frames between 311 and 315, with vertical lines so we can see the head movements of everyone in the car.



Kennedy's head snaps forward; nobody else's does. Looks like someone gave you a bum steer.

But I'm glad we got that cleared up. ;-)

(edited to correct frame number)

[Minstrel Boy]

24. I appreciate your digging that up

- really! - but I see Connolly's head moving forward, too. Look at the distance he made up between 312 and 313 in relation to the redline.

[William Seger]

26. Watch it in real time

It's hard to say because 313 is very blurry compared to 312, but just before this sequence, Connally was turned around, looking back over his right shoulder. In real time, you can see that he's turning back to face forward when the shot hits Kennedy, which would easily explain that small amount of motion. And, neither Mrs. Connally, Jackie, nor the two people in the front seat show anything like Kennedy's 2-inch snap forward.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. The deceleration can be seen in the Nix video

which can be downloaded here:

http://www.jfkjr.com/archives/

Just before the head shot. It's there.

[av8rdave]

23. Give it time, folks....

somebody will make the whole thing Bill Clinton's fault!

av8rdave

[Minstrel Boy]

25. The headshot - caused by a frangible bullet?

That is, high-velocity and exploding on impact (i.e., not the munition for Oswald's rifle).

...

Where the Warren Report and its apologists see "jet effect" from an exit wound, however, the late New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison saw a dumdum bullet exploding on Kennedy's right temple. "In this enlargement {of the kill shot}," he wrote in his book On the Trail of the Assassins, "it looks like it actually was caused by a frangible bullet." Forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht also believes an exploding bullet fired from the grassy knoll inflicted the fatal wound.

Not only do lawyers and doctors believe a frangible bullet hit Kennedy, so does a professional sniper. Combat-hardened ex-Marine and police sharpshooter Craig Roberts, author of Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza, asked, "How in the world could anyone look at that {Zapruder} film and say that the fatal head strike had come from the rear? The so-called experts who stated that the rearward jerk of Kennedy's head was due to 'muscle reaction,' 'jet force from an erupting bullet' or some other violation of the laws of physics, had obviously never served in combat, where witnessing high-velocity bullet strikes was commonplace...

"Some of the supporters of the Warren Commission...stated that the bullet came from the rear because the eruption of brain matter and blood came out of the front of the president's skull. I saw something else. In a head shot, the exit wound, due to the buildup of hydrostatic pressure, explodes in a conical formation in the down-range direction of the bullet. Yet in the Zapruder film, I could plainly see that the eruption was not a conical shape to the front of the limo, but instead was an explosion that cast fragments both up and down in a vertical plane, and side to side in a horizontal plane. There was only one explanation for this: an exploding or 'frangible' bullet. Such a round explodes on impact--in exactly the manner depicted in the film."

The vicious force of the frangible round sent flesh and bone particles flying in a variety of directions, including back onto the trunk of the car, as Jacqueline Kennedy seated to the President's left--immediately noticed. Seconds after her husband was shot in the head, the First Lady swiftly crawled onto the trunk of the Lincoln to retrieve a piece of the President's skull, Secret Service agent Clint Hill later testified.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/33rd_Issue/misc.html