Al has say on Dean

[wndycty]

-snip-
Candidate and civil rights activist Al Sharpton — who has accused Dean of having an "anti-black agenda" — said he was "surprised and disturbed" by the Confederate flag remark. "If I said I wanted to be the candidate for people that ride around with helmets and swastikas, I would be asked to leave," Sharpton said.
-snip-

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031102/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_2004_5

[Vis Numar]

1. I'll take Jackson, you can have Sharpton

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr. Praises Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda to the South
"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."-- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., March on Washington, August 28, 1963

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunters' gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

[Woodstock]

4. Thank you, Rev. Jackson

I think that trumps Sharpton's cheap shot.

[DemPopulist]

19. That was Congressman Jackson, not Rev. Jackson

His father hasn't endorsed anyone.

[Woodstock]

23. my bad, I thought it was his father

thanks

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Woodstock]

26. ?

If you mean what I think you do, what you said is neither fair nor funny.

It was an honest mistake - I didn't know his son was a public figure & didn't read the article closely enough to see the "Congressman" part.

[wndycty]

30. He is US Congressman for heavens sake!

I would think that anyone truly in touch with the African American community would know that.

[Woodstock]

43. I'm putting you on ignore

I see no reason to put up with your rude remarks. Life is too short.

But before I do, I'm going to respond. So, let me get this straight, YOU are going to determine who is "in touch with the African American community" based on your criteria, and if I don't meet your criteria, I can't discuss Al Sharpton's remarks? I don't know the names of every man or woman serving in Congress in America. Interestingly, a friend (an African American) said she had no idea who Al Sharpton is - and she votes Democratic. Is she out of touch with the African American community, too? You make an awful lot of assumptions about people. She is trying to decide who to vote for and guess what - she likes Dean (this is the truth) - and when I was starting to wonder if Clark had a better chance, she said, no, a Dean/Clark ticket would be better.

[virtualobserver]

6. Jackson is a viable national leader, Sharpton is not.

I too, will take Jackson.

Dean-Jackson looks better and better to me every day.

[Woodstock]

2. Drop out Al

Let's have some in-depth debates with the candidates who have a shot at winning. 7 minutes in a two hour debate is not enough time for the man who might be our nominee.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. If Winning The Nomination Is Your Criterion

there are four of five others that need to drop out....

[Woodstock]

16. Fine with me - people are starting to tune out of the debates

With only 7 minutes to hear the candidates, & the candidates never getting into depth beyond their catch phrases, it's starting to become a joke

IMHO, yes, 4 or 5 do need to drop out.

[wndycty]

3. Did Al lie in his reply?

:kick:

[Woodstock]

36. Yes, Al did lie

"Candidate and civil rights activist Al Sharpton — who has accused Dean of having an "anti-black agenda" — said he was "surprised and disturbed" by the Confederate flag remark. "If I said I wanted to be the candidate for people that ride around with helmets and swastikas, I would be asked to leave," Sharpton said."

Dean does not have an "anti-black" agenda. Sharpton took a cheap shot, and is getting roasted for it the same way Kerry and Edwards are getting roasted for their similar cheap shots.

[wndycty]

40. That cheap shot was a few days old. . .

. . .his reply was: "If I said I wanted to be the candidate for people that ride around with helmets and swastikas, I would be asked to leave," Sharpton said."

So did he lie in his reply?

[mzmolly]

74. As far as I know helmets and swastikas are not a symbol with more then one

meaning. Many in the South fly the Confederate flag, and don't have a racist intent....

"Note: It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights."


http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

Dean's foes, just ensured his ratings burst in the South.

GO DEAN!! :toast:

Thank goodness for Jesse Jackson Jr. I'd love to see him be a running mate for Dean!!!

[Classical_Liberal]

81. I don't like the confederate flag, but it is just a symbol

and we need to put it aside to improve our schools and our economy.

[SahaleArm]

91. The confederate flag...

represents the old south, the Jim Crow south, the separate but equal south. There's nothing unifying about the confederate flag, no matter how you spin it.

[jiacinto]

5. Tawana Brawley

That's all I need to say.

[Forkboy]

35. More like all you CAN say

Tawana Brawley skip...Tawana Brawley skip...Tawana Brawley skip

[sangha]

92. Have you ever said anything else, Carlos?

You act like your persuasive or something

[wndycty]

7. Again. . .

. . .did Al say anything incorrect in his response to Dean's comments?

[alexwcovington]

8. OUT OF CONTEXT!

This is what Howard Dean said:

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

[wndycty]

11. Out of context. . .sort of like Clark's flip flop on Iraq

I don't believe Dean to be a racist, but other candidates have had to pay the price when they insert their foot in their mouth and so does Dean.

[alexwcovington]

14. I don't see any foot in mouth

Howard Dean is talking about reaching out to people Democrats have written off -- bringing the same message to them that he brings to everyone else.

Whoever claims that is putting a foot in your mouth has selective hearing.

[wndycty]

18. Of course you don't. . .

. . .in your eyes Dean can do no wrong.

[alexwcovington]

25. You're accusing me of not having an open mind?

When you're the one jumping up and down on about an out-of-context quote? Who the hell are you, Annthrax?

[wndycty]

27. I am just saying I hope the Deanies. . .

. . .show the same type of understanding, that they are demanding of us, the next time another Democratic candidate makes a statement that is controversial.

[alexwcovington]

31. I know I will

These GD discussions have just gotten way too toxic.

I'm very supportive of the entire pack. I just happen to think Dean is the best guy. But all of them are great. So you can understand it hurts me very much to see them attacking each other so virulently without just cause.

[wndycty]

37. Did you say the same thing when Dean was calling Clark a Republican?

:kick:

[alexwcovington]

45. He did?

I admit deanforamerica.com is not my primary new source... I hadn't heard him make such allegations and I do not support them.

I wish that I didn't have to look so hard to find Clark's positions on the issues... he should put them up on his website... otherwise these baseless attacks can continue on the premise that "Oh, well, he hasn't put up what he thinks on his website, so he must be hiding something."

That's crap, and it needs to stop.

[wndycty]

68. Here you go!

-snip-
You've got a lot of establishment politicians now surrounding a general who was a Republican until 25 days ago, voted for Ronald Reagan, voted for Dick Nixon, supported the war last October in Iraq, although he's opposed it, I thought eloquently, since that time. ... Again, a good guy, very qualified, but he was a Republican until 25 days ago, and I think that's gonna be hard to swallow for a lot of Democrats.
-snip-

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=784

And as far as the issues are concerned visit:
http://clark04.com/issues/

[alexwcovington]

75. Thank you.

:P We all know Clark's past.

I would hardly call "The New Republic" a reliable source of information, though. Dean wasn't calling Clark a Republican NOW. Now is what matters. Yes, two months ago, Clark was a Republican. It should not be something to be afraid of for Clark supporters though. It is his candidacy's central strength that he is a former rightist that has seen the horror of the current administration... and has always been for personal rights.

[wndycty]

77. Was Clark a Republican two months ago?

Or was he an independent? He support Erksine Bowles against Libby Dole. Also the comment cannot only be found in the New Republic, this is a widely circulated quote. I want evidence backing up your assertion that Clark was a Republican and not an independent. Secondly tell me one thing that Clark has done for Republicans that he has not done for Democrats. If you say he was a Republican two months ago, I want proof.

[alexwcovington]

80. I don't have the evidence

If you're that touchy about it, fine. You can be touchy on it. Maybe not a "Republican" per se but definitely right-leaning. The terms are used interchangably perhaps too much... but... well, you know how things go...

[wndycty]

82. Why wouldn't you consider Independent. . .

. . .you say I am being touchy. But have you considered that I am just asking for consistency from the Dean group. If it is unfair to criticize Dean for his remarks today (which I have not done) how come its fair to call Clark a Republican? The evidence speaks for itself, Clark supported both Democrats and Republicans but he is labeled a Republican. Back it up, that should not be too hard.

[alexwcovington]

84. He bears the label

So work with it. It is not negative because the label is not "Republican" the label is "ex-Republican."

And that is a strength, not a weakness.

It may not be backed by facts, but it is what you have been stuck with. So you have to work with it more than against it.

If you'd care to enlighten me more about this independent record, I'd love to hear it. But there's no need to get overly angry. I'm willing to hear it...

[wndycty]

85. Tell me why he is a Republican. . .

. . .what has he done for Republicans that he has not done for Democrats. You want to call him an ex-Republican, but you have provided no proof as to why. Do you have a copy of a Republican registration. He voted for Clinton twice, Gore once and campaigned and donated to Erksine Bowles. Tell me how he was a Republican and not an Independent.

[alexwcovington]

86. I know you are but what am I...

Ok... I'm not trying to make accusations. I'm just telling you what the political climate is. The consensus, true or not, is that Clark used to be a Republican.

That is not scientific "proof," naturally. And you are doing fine refuting that idea.

But then, not all right-leaning people vote a straight ticket, either.


And what is this "registration" that you talk about? Do you live in a place where you have to file paperwork just to vote? :P

[wndycty]

87. Based upon your logic. . .

. . .it would then be fair to label Dean a racist (WHICH I WOULD NEVER DO!) given his previous comments on Affirmative Action, the fact he comes from an almost all-white state and he comments today. That would be false, but if I would use the same logic that you used it would be appropriate. Unless of course you say there are different standards for the two candidates.

[alexwcovington]

88. Good point.

You're right... consensus or not, it is the truth that is most important. How forgotten that concept is!

[IndianaGreen]

51. A Marxist would say...

that those "poor and working class white southerners" vote against their class interests precisely because the Republicans have been able to exploit the symbols they value so much.

There is a remarkable CBS documentary called "Harvest" made by the legendary Edward R. Murrow about migrant farm workers in the early 1960s. Halfway through the documentary, it becomes obvious to this 21st century viewer that white and black migrant workers share the same plight, the same needs, and are exploited by the same people. Remarkably so, at a political meeting held at a church, the white migrant workers meet without any migrant workers present. Despite the fact that they are being exploited, the culture of segregation was more powerful than their shared class interests.

Marxism and the Race/Class Problematic:
A Re-Articulation

By E. San Juan, Jr.

We might take a passage from Marx as a source of guidelines for developing a historical-materialist theory of racism which is not empiricist but dialectical in aiming for theorizing conceptual concreteness as a multiplicity of historically informed and configured determinations. This passage comes from a letter dated 9 April 1870 to Meyer and Vogt in which Marx explains why the Irish struggle for autonomy was of crucial significance for the British proletariat:

Every industrial and commercial center in England possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he feels himself a member of the ruling nation and so turns himself into a tool of the aristocrats and capitalists of his country against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the 'poor whites' to the 'niggers' in the former slave states of the USA. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker at once the accomplice and stupid tool of the English rule in Ireland.

This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organization. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And that class is fully aware of it (quoted in Callinicos 1993).

Here Marx sketches three parameters for the sustained viability of racism in modern capitalist society. First, the economic competition among workers is dictated by the distribution of labor power in the labor-market via differential wage rates. The distinction between skilled and unskilled labor is contextualized in differing national origins, languages and traditions of workers, which can be manipulated into racial antagonisms. Second, the appeal of racist ideology to white workers, with their identification as members of the "ruling nation" affording--in W.E.B. DuBois's words--"public and psychological wage" or compensation. Like religion, white-supremacist nationalism provides the illusory resolution to the real contradictions of life for the working majority of citizens. Third, the ruling class reinforces and maintains these racial divisions for the sake of capital accumulation within the framework of its ideological/political hegemony in the metropolis and worldwide.

http://eserver.org/clogic/2003/sanjuan.html

[pruner]

59. in your eyes Dean can do no right

n/t

[wndycty]

69. How wrong you are. . .

. . .I am very big fan of Howard and if you noticed I did not criticize him for the statement. I just pointed out the hypocrisy of his supporters who don't like it and think its unfair when their guy is in the hot seat.

[alexwcovington]

72. You're right

Dean is gonna be in the hotseat for a long time. For those hotheads in the Dean boat with me, I must ask you all to cool off. And don't attack the other guys. They're trying their best too.

[Julien Sorel]

21. No no no no no

He's talking about people who look up to the Confederate flag, not just people the Dems have written off. He deliberately chose to use that language, when there were a million other ways to get his point across. It's typical Dean, shooting his mouth off without considering the damage he does.

[alexwcovington]

28. Can you think of a starker metaphor?

Yes... These are people who are definitely the most out of sync with the Democrats. But he STILL wants to reach out to even them.

Al Gore flew over the vast majority of this country instead of campaigning in it. Dean won't repeat that mistake.

[Cha]

39. Hi, Alex!

Over there in North Dakota! :hi:

[alexwcovington]

49. Hi, zidzi!

Over there in New York :hi:

Yeah, Gore only stopped in Fargo for jet fuel and pizza. Bastard.

[Julien Sorel]

42. I certainly can't think of a more offensive metaphor.

Which is kind of the point.

Who cares what Al Gore did? As soon as Dean screws up, the Deanites go into the 'our campaign is superior' mode. Al Gore did not say or do something that implied he thinks flying the Confederate flag is a perfectly acceptable practice. That's about the only relevant thing I can think of with regards to Al Gore and this issue, unless it's how the Repubs can use it to Gore Dean.

[alexwcovington]

47. He was talking about bumper stickers...

I think you need to turn on your hearing aid...

[Julien Sorel]

53. Let's just say one of us does.

A bumper sticker of the Confederate flag is the same thing as flying it, and has the same meaning, and Dean legitimized the practice with his statement.

You gave up on Al Gore. I suppose that's progress, of a sort.

[alexwcovington]

54. *I* gave up on Al Gore?

Because it really seems to me Al Gore gave up on me and my state and the region it's in.

How does Dean legitimize flying the Confederate flag by saying that he wants healthcare and public education for the children of those people too?

[Julien Sorel]

62. One of the more fun posts I've seen recently.

You gave up on trying to use Gore to deflect attention from the main issue, but now you're back at it.

Dean legitimized flying the Confederate flag by saying he wanted people who do it to vote for him, implying that they are somehow mainstream.

Any other weak attempts at wordplay? I love those games. Keep it up!

[alexwcovington]

71. Wordplay?

Ok. Let's calm down here.

Deep breaths.... In... Out... In... Out...

Ok... Ok... I'm ready.

Now I'll repeat what I put up earlier, what Dean actually said, so we can take a look at it.

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

Let's break it down.

Now you talk about "legitimizing" the use of the Confederate flag.

Obviously this would come from a look at the front part of this quote... or a look at a quote cut only to the beginning of it...

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us..."

Such as that.

Now that is a form of wordplay on its own, the early termination of a quote. You have to read it all to get the whole meaning.

"...because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

See? Those are good, wholesome, Democratic values.

Now Howard Dean is not identifying with these people. He's not talking about heritage or racism or whatever. He's generalizing, perhaps, in his identification of the Confederate flag with white southern people in the metaphor ... but then he continues that same line of generalization through the quote, also assuming that these people are poor.

Now generalization can be a bad thing. In this case it has a lot of people up in arms. But it was not Dean's intention for his words to be taken in such a negative way.

[Julien Sorel]

79. I congratulate you on making a reasoned post.

Now generalization can be a bad thing. In this case it has a lot of people up in arms. But it was not Dean's intention for his words to be taken in such a negative way.

And that's my point. He's been surrounded by white people his whole life; he doesn't know, or stop to find out, how offensive certain things are to other people. That implies he doesn't care to. Yet he is still willing to shoot off his mouth. The Mississippi and Georgia Confederate flag issues were all over the media. How could he not be aware of what a stupid statement this was? The guy doesn't have a mouth; he is a mouth, and a foolish one. What he meant isn't the issue; what he said is.

[alexwcovington]

83. So...

You dislike the fact that he's straight talking? That is his greatest strength!

The era of bland pollitics is over -- indeed it would the death knell for the Democrats if we picked someone not willing to be forceful.

I think the forceful candidates in the race are: Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton

The bland ones are: Gephardt, Lieberman, Kerry

And Moseley-Braun, Edwards, and Clark are in the middle.

[Julien Sorel]

89. You're back to dissembling again. I guess one decent post was

all you could muster. It's a twist on the 'candidacy' red herring: whereas above, you weakly tried to drag Gore into it and say 'our campaign is better;' now you're dragging everyone into it and saying, 'my candidate is better.' Of course, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The issue isn't 'straight talking;' the issue is respect, sensitivity, and just plain common sense. Dean has repeatedly demonstrated he lacks these things; this is simply the most gross and, to me, personally offensive example of it. He could have made the exact same point without pandering to a racist symbol and still been a 'straight talker' (as if he really is one :eyes: ); but he shot off his mouth instead. That isn't 'straight talk'; it's 'stupid talk.'

[Cha]

34. I see you "have selective hearing".

[Cha]

9. they are all attacking the leader whether

warranted or Not. Then with him out of the way ...
they can go after each other.

[Military Brat]

10. I tell you what I wish ...

I sure as hell wish the Republicannibals would beat to death every single potentially controversial statement bush makes the way we're beating to death every single potentially controversial statement the Dems are making.

Dean is not racist. None of the Dem candidates are racist. And that's all we need to know. Let's have a little bit thicker skin, or the Republicannibals will draw blood with every bite they take of us.

[Cha]

17. The "republicannibals" believe that lying is the best

way to go so they won't be doing that any time soon...but it does sound good!

"I sure as hell wish the Republicannibals would beat to death every single potentially controversial statement bush makes the way we're beating to death every single potentially controversial statement the Dems are making."
:P

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

13. That's pretty low Al

Sharpton should have been above this. Shame on Edwards, Gephardt, and Sharpton. Dean said he wanted the white working class to vote Democratic, and he spoke against the racism that's prevalent in all of our society. This is a low blow against Dean. Good for Dean for telling the truth and being candid about the racism and classism in the "confederate flag debate". Dean knows perfectly well that the Republicans use racism to divide the South on racial lines, and that Democrats should unite them together.

Dean just went up another notch in my book, and that's a lot coming from me.

[wndycty]

15. Al does not have a right to respond?

He said nothing about Dean in his statement. He just pointed out how he would be held to a different standard. Think about it.

[Eloriel]

32. That's disingenuous

Sharpton may not have uttered Dean's name, but he wouldn't have been saying what he said were it not in reference to Dean. Please don't pretend otherwise.

ANd yes, he can say whatever he wants. I've a huge Sharpton fan -- and defender -- for quite some time. However, I'm disappointed in his unwarranted attacks on Dean, who is neither racist nor pandering to racism.

Eloriel

[wndycty]

41. I hope you are just as disgusted when Dean

Does the same thing. . .like calling Clark a Republican. . .turnabout is fair play.

[sendero]

58. >> disappointed in his unwarranted attacks on Dean

Particularly since said attacks can do Sharpton absolutely no good.

[Cha]

20. You're right! It is "low" And Stupid! sharpton just went

DOWN several more notches in my book.

[wndycty]

22. Again what did Al do wrong. . .

. . .I beg of you, tell me what the hell was wrong with Al's comments. At Black people only allowed to comment if they support Dean? And what happens if Carol Mosely Braun comments, will that be considered low as well? Think about it?

[Cha]

29. Quit telling me to "think about it". I'm thinking

you don't know what you're talkin' about.

[wndycty]

33. What don't I know. . .

. . .that Al is being criticized for exercising his right to comment. If you have noticed I have not bashed Dean on this. I am just calling out hypocrisy.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

38. Because Sharpton should be getting those votes too

The Democratic party is the one that can get people who drive around with confederate flag stickers to drive around with Sharpton stickers instead. Don't believe it? Do you know any white 18 year old Southerners?

I'm not a big Dean fan, but good for Dean. Next, an MTV special about the confedrate flag featuring Dean. Dean wants the white working class to vote Democratic, so do I. Racism divides us and the rich win, Dean admits this and I'm glad he does.

Sharpton should have said that he agreed with Dean, and that the white working class better abandon their bigotries and join us if they want a piece of the pie. Truman said it - if you want to live like a Republican, vote Democratic.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. I Have Lived In Florida Since I Was A Little Boy (1970)

Anybody who flys that flag knows exactly what they are doing....

It's a symbolic rejection of African American enfranchisement....


It's as fanciful to believe anybody that waves that flag would embrace Al Sharpton as it is to believe that Edward Norton's character in American History X would embrace Joe Lieberman....

[ForestsBeatBushes]

61. You are so right.

This thread shows that some people on DU who favor Dean are almost cult-like in their inability to see something from a perspective other than that which favors their candidate.

People, please, if any other candidate made a statement such as Dean's, don't you think you would be just a little bit critical?

One person repeated 'Tawana Brawley' as a response. In my opinion, that was a terrible mistake made by Reverend Sharpton. However, does that seal his fate forevermore? He seems to have grown in the past few years. I don't believe it was a 'cheap shot' for him to react to Governor Dean's statement; the statement galled me as well.

Words matter. Candidates need to understand the emotion generated by certain words and phrases. "Confederate flags and pick-up trucks" conjures nothing positive up for me.

Thanks to the person who originated this thread.

[Sean Reynolds]

44. What did he do wrong? He stated Dean had an anti-black agenda.

Candidate and civil rights activist Al Sharpton — who has accused Dean of having an "anti-black agenda"

How is that fair? Sharpton is stating Dean is a racist. What if I were to state Sharpton was an ape. Would that not be wrong too? Or what if I stated Kucinich was a nazi because of his Israel beliefs, would that not be wrong too?

Sharpton can respond, but when he states Dean is a racist, YES THAT IS WRONG. But not only that, it's a flat out lie!

[wndycty]

57. In his response today. . .

. . .he did not say anything about an "anti-black agenda" thats a few days old.

[Sean Reynolds]

63. Still basically called him a racist.

"If I said I wanted to be the candidate for people that ride around with helmets and swastikas, I would be asked to leave," Sharpton said.

Someone that rides around with a helmet and a swastika is a Nazi, right? So he's saying Dean is a racist because of his statement. THAT is wrong.

[Julien Sorel]

70. No, he isn't.

He's saying that Dean legitimized the Confederate flag, by saying he wants to appeal to people who display it. Dean's statement is perfectly OK, but Sharpton's is not?

'For too long, white supremacists have been shut out of the Democratic Party. We need to make a home for them here. They need healthcare just like everyone else.'

[Sean Reynolds]

73. But Dean didn't say that.

And that is where Sharpton is wrong. Dean didn't legitimize the flag, he's against the flag (as he's stated in the past). So don't give me that crap Dean was embracing it.

[Forkboy]

95. Some people dont really care what was said or what wasn't said

they see a chance to score points for their guy.

[JNelson6563]

52. yes, it's true

Dean just went up another notch in my book, and that's a lot coming from me.

Indeed it is. Evidence of fair mindedness. Impressive and rare in this GD atmosphere. :toast:

Julie

[HFishbine]

46. Like it or not Al

There's a difference between a swastika and the confederate flag. Nobody wears a swastika and claims it's part of their heritage. As hard as it may be to believe, especially to non-southerners, there are people who ride around with confederate flags on the back of their trucks because they see it as a rememberence of their heritage.

People have definitely used the confederate flag as a symbol of intimidation and to express a solidarity with racists views. But plenty of those NASCAR dads the DLC supposedly covets see it simply as a symbol of the south. That's the truth.

And BTW Al, I'm sure if Howard Dean or any other white man had called Jesse Jackson Jr an Uncle Tom, as you did, you'd be the first to cry racism. Your hypocricy invalidates your ability to adjudicate what is or is not racially condemnable.

[Cha]

50. Sharpton's statement was totally

disingenous and it smacked of demagoguery.

[Woodstock]

56. I'm sorry it had to even be brought up

none of the candidates are racist

this is about the candidates who are behind the frontrunner making political hay

but it comes at the expense of the entire party

one would think they would be above this sort of thing for the good of the party

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Let's Take Dean And Sharpton Out Of The Equation....

Fact 1 The swastika was the symbol for the Third Reich....

Fact 2 The Confederate flag was the symbol for the Confederacy; the loosely aligned states who seceded from the Union to protect slavery....

Fact 3 The Holocaust was more odious than slavery but still odious enough....

Fact 4 Victims of the Holocaust and their progeny are intimidated and offended by the Swastika....

Fact 5 Victims of slavery and their progeny are intimidated and offended by the Confederate flag....

Fact 6 Folks who display the swastika or Confederate flag do it in the knowledge they are intimidating and offending lots of innocent folks...

Conclusion- People who engage in that behavior are wrong... They should be allowed to change their ways but they shouldn't be encouraged or coddled....

[HFishbine]

65. DemSiBi

I agree with everything your write, but for one minor exception. There are some people, I know a few, who truley do not know or do not believe that displaying the confederate battle flag offends people. Yes, many do know and their motives are intimidation. But there are indeed some people who realy just don't understand. Call them stupid and insensitive but their intentions are not malicious.

[mzmolly]

78. I totally agree. I had friends who had them in highschool and they did

not have malicious intent. In addition I saw one in Canada of all places? I can't imagine it's meaning to that person ;)

[Fenris]

60. Nobody wears a swastika and claims it's part of their heritage...

Because it is ILLEGAL to do so in Germany. And don't think there isn't a small contingent of Germans who would claim it as part of their heritage, either. The majority of Germans consider that symbol and that era a blight, and therefore have taken appropriate measures to limit its exposure. If Germans need to be reminded of their "heritage" all they have to do is to drive past a bomb-scarred cathedral or visit the remains of a concentration camp.

Corollary to that, if Southerners need to be reminded of their "heritage," they should visit a slave graveyard, or maybe a battlefield. Yes, that is something to be proud of. Something to really celebrate.

As a white Southerner, I certainly don't think that era or that flag should be celebrated. It should be maligned.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. This Whole "Heritage" Argument Emanates From Right Wing Talking Points

Give me a quote from a liberal intellectual that folks who fly the Confederate flag are celebrating their heritage and I might revisit my position...

[Fenris]

66. I'm not sure if that would even convince me

I think it would take a monumental change in our understanding of southern history to change my mind. As it stands now, this "heritage" argument boils my blood.

[XanaDUer]

76. God, are there ever...

". Nobody wears a swastika and claims it's part of their heritage. As hard as it may be to believe, especially to non-southerners, there are people who ride around with confederate flags on the back of their trucks because they see it as a rememberence of their heritage..."

A lot, and I mean a lot vehicles have some type of Stars and Bars thingy on them where I live...NE FL...bumper stickers...one gentleman not only has a big ole Conferderate Flag, but, his horn plays Dixie. And they are not all pick-up trucks, either.

And the poster who said that those who fly it know what they are doing (paraphrasing them) is correct. I really think that racism may be more important to some people than healthcare.

My .02

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. Take Dean And Sharpton Out Of The Fucking Equation

Nobody who flies that flag does it without the knowledge it's a kick in the teeth to black folks.....

[bigtree]

67. There goes the neighborhood

White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back can go straight to hell. God help the kids.

[Donna Zen]

90. Missing the point

I don't think Howard Dean is a racist; I don't think Al Sharpton thinks Howard Dean is a racist. Nevertheless, I do think the Confederate flag reference stero-types, not the actual owners of the fabled pickup trucks, but the white lower-middle class population of the South. Also, that same phrase, which connotates a reaching out to red-neck kooks who will never, ever, vote for a Democrat, offends many AA voters who are a very sensitive to the symbolic meaning of the Confederate flag.

So what's the point? The are many ways to reach out to lower, lower-middle, and middle class Southern voters who too often vote against their own best interests. The actual point is that this was bad political judgement on the part of Howard Dean. I am sorry Dean supporters, but that is what it amounts to. What I am even more sorry about is that this pulls the Democratic field into a useless, feeble-minded fray that hurts all of them no matter what their response. It sucks political air that is damn hard to come by.

Proof?

Unfortunately, I seen posts on this board tonight attacking the other candidates, attacking Dean, attacking the American flag, attacking American patriotism, and now attacking Sharpton. BTW, I do not see Sharpton's statement as anything more than what it is: would we want to invite neo-nazis to the party because of our health-care plan? Yes, it is hyperbole, but Sharpton has merely substituted symbols to make his point.

[Myra]

94. Yow, those are strong words

From Rev Sharpton. But then the KKKonfederate flag
is a strong symbol of racism. Therefore it's understandable
that it'd evoke strong rhetoric. I wouldn't use such strong
words against Dean, but then I haven't been a victim of
racism my whole life like African Americans have.

I think General Clark had the best response to Dean's comments:

"Every Democratic candidate for president needs to condemn the divisiveness the Confederate flag represents."