Howard Dean now has my respect as a general election candidate

[ShaneGR]

Winning the Presidency of the United States requires a certain amount of pandering. No President gets elected by gaining the support of his party. He ALWAYS has to innoculate himself from some criticism.

With the pro-gun, pro-death penalty, pro-confederate flag stance... Dean is now easilly electable.

In exchange for those issues, we will get an anti-war, pro-healthcare, pro-education, pro-government investment President....

I'll take that tradeoff anyday.

[pruner]

1. where do you get that Dean is pro-Confederate flag?

that's not what he said at all.

"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic…"

http://www.blogforamerica.com

[ShaneGR]

2. It doesn't matter what he actually said....

He wasn't negative about the flag... that innoculates him from 'he's just a NE liberal' criticism.

I like that.

[pruner]

4. I agree to certain extent…

but there's a difference between not being negative about something & being positive about it.

[ShaneGR]

7. If I was a Dean operative in the south....

I would be printing out what he said, getting a list of every registered Independent... and putting it in their mailbox.

[preocupied]

57. How the fuck can you defend the symbol of the KKK?

[av8rdave]

49. Oh, Puhleez...

The guy used "confederate flag" in a sentence! Now you have every pollster and pundit in the country trying to make him controversial and unelectable.

Oh well, it sells papers, and the uninformed will buy it as news.

av8rdave

[Woodstock]

8. if you are saying the "states rights" strategy is wise

in certain issues that affect swing voters, as long as he can do so without selling out, I agree

I've followed him closely from the beginning and am sold he's a decent man and when in office will do the right thing

[ShaneGR]

11. Basically that is what I am saying

Distance from the wedge issues.

[Woodstock]

12. states rights appears to be his strategy

on these issues

[camero]

55. There are a few state's rights issues that are doable

Things such as:

Unfunded Mandates
Civil Unions (which I think all marriages should be, the state should not sanction marriage at all)
Internet taxes

You can add to this.

[diamond14]

6. same place you get the 'DC anti-war protestors are 'communists,

castro-supporters, toxic, anti-American, red bandana Phillippos (spelling error intended), and screaming-foreign-speakers...'

[UrbScotty]

3. Electability - 'tis the key.

I keep saying, Dean stands up to the values of our party, while still being able to appear less of an anti-gun freak than Gore did.

[ShaneGR]

5. Gore lost 2000* on guns

Without the gun issue, the Republican party had nothing in 2000.


*Gore actually won.

[Woodstock]

9. agree, but he rolled over and died on the environment

listening to bum advice

my point is, we need to shout loud and long about our strong suits, but play it cool on our weak suits

*President Gore won

[ShaneGR]

18. Not really

Gore went out of his way to embrace the environmental issue, it just happened during the primaries. The Greens were making a big stink up in Minnesota (or was it Wisconsin?) because Nader supposedly had a 12 point pickup there.... of course, the Bush Cabal just used it to label Gore as a tree-hugging liberal, and we were defeated.

[stevedeshazer]

31. Bullcrap

Watch this video, then come back and tell me again why Gore lost* the election, okay?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/palast.ram

*Gore won.

[mzmolly]

10. Watch Deans numbers increase in the South.

I'm afraid this little 'trick' just ensured a Dean vs. Bush match up. In addition, Dean just became electable in the South.

"Note: It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights."

Note contributed by BJ Meksikatsi.

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

[Maddy McCall]

13. Won't happen. Expect the south to support Clark and Edwards...

and southern influence may result in that being the Dem ticket: Clark/Edwards.

Southerners only trust southerners. Dean can pander all he wants, but the south will support a southerner.

[ShaneGR]

15. Possibly, but I'm not talking about them

If Clark or Edwards gets the nomination, I would expect them to garner some southern support. I do not dismiss either of them. In this thread, I was trying to express my new belief that Dean would be able to get some southern support also.

It depends on who wins the nomination.

[Maddy McCall]

16. Southerners aren't that easily swayed.

He can talk the talk, but he isn't a "from-here" southern boy, so I don't expect there to be any broad support for him in the South.

It is well documented the determinative factor that the south has on presidential candidate nominations. I expect Clark or Edwards to be our next Democratic candidate for prez, and the other to be the VP half of the ticket.

[mzmolly]

38. I expect your wrong. Dean is ahead in NH and polling well in Iowa.

It's all over but the crying now.

[Maddy McCall]

61. When did NH and Iowa become southern states???

[mzmolly]

34. It's not about pandering, it's about flaming over a pretty dull statement

and bringing the issue into the main stream media. That comment would not have made it's way into Southern homes were it not for the 'fall out'...

So again I say thank you Dean foes. You just ensured another spike in the polls for Dean!

[SahaleArm]

14. Dean thinks the confederate flag crowd will jump...

to his campaign? More like they'll vote for Bush and Black Democrats won't vote, good strategy.

[pruner]

17. Dean's point is that there's no reason for the "confederate flag crowd" to

vote Republican.

after all, :wtf: have the republicans ever done for them? not a damn thing.

[Maddy McCall]

21. Duh...that's no new revelation...

But Southern Republicans don't vote in consideration of their pocketbook; they vote on social issues. And the Rebel-flag wavers are a group that Dean has NO HOPE of influencing, mainly because this core group of southerners still distrust "outsiders."

[Cha]

30. "Duh"! It may not be a "new" thing but Dean

is bringing it to the forefront and talking about it loud and clear.

And Dean has Plenty of "Hope"!

[Maddy McCall]

62. In the south, he doesn't. Not when there are two...

southerners on the dem ticket.

[caledesi]

35. Thank you pruner...that's the REAL point...it has nothing to do

w/ being "pro confederate flag" etc. He want to ask the very provocvative question of these FORMER Democrats, "why do you vote Repug?" It's very simple you know.

[Maddy McCall]

19. Right. Confederate toting southerners will vote Republican unless

a son of the South is nominated. They won't indulge in regional betrayal to support a "yankee Democrat." Just won't happen, and Dean is making himself look foolish by even dreaming that he can carry those Rebel-flag-waving Southerners. Clark may, Edwards may--they're both southerners--but no way will Dean.

Edit: their to they're---doh!

[calimary]

20. Well, he IS correct about one thing in what he said.

Even those reactionary schmucks need health insurance and good schools for their kids and other stuff that's being priced beyond their reach under the current bastards in charge.

[Maddy McCall]

22. And those "reactionary schmucks" still fear big government and espouse

the tenets of rugged individualism. It is quite a paradox, is it not?

[mzmolly]

39. Well considering the statement was made on several occasions

and Dean has much support in the African American community, I'd say your wrong.

[SahaleArm]

41. Wrong, Dean has the support of two black leaders...

not the entire African American community.

[mzmolly]

42. Your statement is incorrect and insulting???

Do you now speak for the Black Community?

http://www.blacksfordean.com/endorsements.htm

[SahaleArm]

45. Quit being disingenuous.

No I don't speak for the African American Community. I'm sure Dean has the support of many African Americans, but you implied that the whole community was behind Dean. I just called you on that.

[MercutioATC]

50. You're the one being "disingenuous"...mzmolly said no such thing.

Actually, the quote was "Dean has much support in the African American community". YOU tried to imply that she said that the whole community was behind Dean.

[SahaleArm]

53. Yep, I read it wrong.

Although I did say implied; It's like I crossed my fingers:).

[KaraokeKarlton]

40. That's ridiculous...give blacks some credit for crying out loud!

Do you honestly think black voters will be mad if a white candidate tries to point out that white and black people actually care about the same kinds of things and have the same basic needs? Someone has needed to say these things in the south for a long damn time. Why is everyone so afraid to talk about this stuff? That's part of the problem! When you point out the common ground different groups share it opens the door to progress. Anyone who get's their undies in a bunch over this is being foolish. Blacks in America have been wanting to talk about these things for decades, and it's only going to turn off the people who don't respect black people enough to view them as rational, thinking individuals who are not any different than white people when all is said and done. We all have the same basic needs, desires and concerns. The race baiting being encouraged by the other campaigns is what I find absolutely disgusting. People on here have got to stop thinking that black voters care any less about getting rid of Bush than white people do. It's dumb.

[SahaleArm]

43. You need to read up...

on what the confederate flag represents. Hint, it's not southern pride nor unity.

[mzmolly]

44. You need to read post # 10, which gives an explanation of what that

flag represents to many.

[SahaleArm]

47. I've read it and I don't buy the argument

I also don't believe in revisionism nor do I care to stand behind what the confederate flag represents today. If these words ring a bell, let me know: Jim Crow, Separate but Equal.

[mzmolly]

51. So you know the hearts of every American who waves the CF...

Naw... See post # 32 from a Southern DU'er. The flag means different things to differnt people. And, if you don't believe in revisionism, you should read Dean's quote in context.

[SahaleArm]

54. Confederate States of America?

I choose not to associate myself with the confederate flag. Everyone has the right to free association.

Post #32: I live in Tampa and totally agree.

What does this anecdote tell me?


> you should read Dean's quote in context

I was responding to you're contention (post #10) that it would improve Dean's southern electability.

[candy331]

63. Karaokekarlton

I applaud your insight. We are truly at a point in this country where together we stand and divided we have fallen oh so far. Blacks have truly been asking for decades for honest discussions on race and getting it out in the open. I really think there is no better time than now. We say it is time to turn the corner then let's turn it.

[caledesi]

32. I live in Tampa and totally agree. nt

[DemPopulist]

23. Um.....no

The stupid thing about Dean's pandering is that of all the candidates with a legitimate shot at the nomination (Clark, Edwards, Gephardt, Kerry), he probably has the least chance of getting even a minor share of the culturally conservative working class to vote for him. If he got anywhere near close in the Southern states, which he won't, the Bush campaign and the "independent" right-wing interest groups that support Bush would unload a bazillion dollars worth of advertising saying "civil unions...only state with a Socialist congressman...'I suppose it was a good thing that Saddam was removed'...civil unions." People have said that they want to leave the country if Bush is elected; I'd want to leave the country during a Bush-Dean race because it would be like reliving 1988 all over again. I'd hope for the best and fear the worst.

I'm sorry but there's a huge cultural chasm between the South and a New England Governor who grew up on Park Avenue and has a youth-movement/Internet-based lefty following, and it wouldn't be overcome if he nailed Dolly Parton live onstage at the Grand Ole Opry.

[Maddy McCall]

24. You're right...and...LMFAO!!

The Dolly comment made me laugh out loud! It is SOOOO TRUE!!!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

25. You left out this gem:

"The U.S. will not always be the strongest nation in the world militarily".

Put away all those other dumb things he said because that takes the cake- lock, stock, and barrel- hands down it is THE one. It's the deal breaker with Dean. It's the stupidest thing he ever said.
It's like: Head for the hills stupid.
Radioactive.
Get away from me.
You're done.

[JNelson6563]

27. It's a very good point

but I realize many Americans are not use to a steady diet of truth.

America is the most powerful nation in the world but it is not more powerful than the rest of the world. Jr and the PNAC crowd seem to be doin' a pretty good job at getting the rest of the world to realize how smart they'd be to form alliances.

As it is our most feared enemy doesn't even have a state of its own much less a military.

Your hatred for Dean is alarming. Do you know hate is like poison? Really bad for you.

Julie

[NewYorkerfromMass]

33. Thank You. and it will NEVER sell in the general election

It is so thoroughly naive it actually makes Bush look competent in national security. Americans will summarily reject Dean for that ONE idiotic statement.
And I don't hate Dean. I am just very afraid that Democrats will nominate him. Because there is no way in hell he can win.

[JNelson6563]

48. I think you have issues

Americans will summarily reject Dean for that ONE idiotic statement.

Shooting for some absurdity title here or what?


And I don't hate Dean.

I shudder to think how you'd behave if you did then.

I am just very afraid that Democrats will nominate him. Because there is no way in hell he can win.

That will be an especially helpful attitude if he takes the nomination. Do you lay awake nights to come up with these productive statements to help kick the fascists out? You know, if Dean wins the nom you could probably get hired at Faux or Moonie Times, you could submit your DU posts as samples of your non-hateful views of him.

Julie

[NewYorkerfromMass]

52. It's an indefensible statement

America's military superiority is an a priori fact. It is unacceptable to any American who cares about a secure future for themselves and their children.
That you are even defending it scares me.

[WilliamPitt]

58. Why do people with legitimate Dean criticisms

have to suffer through BS psychoanalysis at the hands of Dean supporters?

[Maddy McCall]

64. Oh the hypocrisy...

Dean supporters who condemned Lott for his adoration of Thurmond would welcome Thurmond's supporters into their fold. Indeed, the same DUers who celebrated Thurmond's death now celebrate the inclusiveness of the Dean sect!

That, my friend, is astonishing, is it not!

[diamond14]

26. well, yes, because lots of DU interlopers just want to split the

party and push forward the best 'loser' against bush*...it's so transparent...wouldn't be surprised if (besides the interlopers) kkkarl rove isn't putting some funds behind the least able to beat the shrub...it's an old party trick....

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. Yes. Nader served them well and they funded him well

in the "splitting up the party" game.

[DrFunkenstein]

28. Respect Seems An Odd Word For Pandering

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[ShaneGR]

36. Yes, I think pandering was a bit harsh...

Perhaps I'm looking for another word..... or phrase.... 'reaching out.'

[Ambassador Hope]

37. Dean is not pro rebel flag

I do not hear him saying that. Anyone running for office should hope everyone should vote for them. It would be different if he said he was back the rebels.

[John_Shadows_1]

46. New Respect for Howard Dean...

... look at this earlier quote:

" At that event, Dean received a rousing ovation from the crowd when he said, "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not , because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

[SahaleArm]

56. He could have stopped at pickup trucks.

But he continued to include the confederate flag. Why?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

59. because he stopped himself before he got to "and gun racks" eom

[SahaleArm]

60. It's impressive...

to see Dean supporters justify the confederate flag using RNC code words. Southern pride, Southern Unity, Celebrating Ancestory, or the oft used 'Other Reasons'?

[dfong63]

65. hey, you said something i agree with!

With the pro-gun, pro-death penalty, pro-confederate flag stance... Dean is now easilly electable.

In exchange for those issues, we will get an anti-war, pro-healthcare, pro-education, pro-government investment President....

in any sort of winner-takes-all system, compromise is unavoidable. no one man can be all things to all people. Dean represents a compromise i can live with.

on edit: but i don't believe Dean sad he was pro-confederate-flag.